Bidam:
First and foremost does any one teach here that external circumcision is a mandatory requirement for believers to be saved? Why compare the two? Or have you not heard where Paul says uncircumcision is nothing and circumcision is nothing? This your weak recycled arguments is getting tiresome and boring.

vooks:
I compare the two because they are quite similar. Can't you see that? Here is how;
1. Both predate Moses
2. Both are included in Moses
3. Both have at different points been taught as MANDATORY, circumcision in the first century, tithing from 4th century to date

It follows that learning how one was tackled in the scriptures can help us resolve the other. I would never repeat myself except to help you understand my point of view. Please feel free to refute any of what I have said.

Cheers bro

Bidam:
Was Abraham tithes mandatory? Why compare the two?

vooks:

The reason I invoke Genesis tithing is because some of the pro-tithers when it has been powerfully proven before them that Mosaic Laws on tithing are not binding on Christians, they fall on pre-Mosaic tithing and claim that they Re tithing 'by faith' like Abraham and not 'by Law' according to Moses.

They draw an artificial distinction between Mosaic practices and Pre-Mosaic practices.

They use this to avoid admitting that whatever they are doing does not line up with Moses. For instance, Mosaic tithing is strictly from scriptures and history on farm produce and not money though the same was available. How do you convince yourself that your present monetary tithing has any scriptural basis? Fall on Abraham and claim that he tithed from war spoils which obviously we're not agricultural.

To see the folly of their argument, would you offer an animal sacrifice 'by faith' like Father Abraham as opposed to 'by Law' like Moses?
Do you see why I used circumcision? When the early church censured circumcision, it was circumcision given to Abraham and amplified in the Law of Moses.

Gombs:


Yes!
I give by faith however. Love propels me

Bidam:
Have you ever heard of the word "principle"? Although Christians are not under the Law, can you deny that the New Testament apostles used the Law to teach Christian doctrines which Christians cannot reject today? Look again at the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23 - are they part of your Christian life or not?

What artificial distinction are you on and about? Did Abraham's tithes have anything to do with God or not? For FOLKS LIKE YOU AND WINSOMEX who hide under Gal 3:10 to throw out the Law as having absolutely no part in their Christian lives, the question is: would they also throw out what Jesus termed the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23? To cast out the Law and yet draw from what is cast away is dubious and inconsistent.
It is indeed pointless to make you see anything in "principle" where you have already made up your mind to read only the 'letter' in a legalistic manner.
You fail to add that Abraham almost sacrificed his son Isaac. Like i keep repeating, I don't argue tithes on a mandatory commandment or law." It is a principle and not by a legalistic exercise.

Gombs:
^^
This was another of his classic
https://www.nairaland.com/1939255/bankruptcy-prosperity-gospel-exercise-biblical/7#27281244
WinsomeX the righteous. He called fellow christians who gather to worship as brood of vipers... i don't want to quote the place he declare we are all going to hell.

Bidam:
No need to go to your thread. This is your veiled threat on Myles munroe here.

trustman:


I hope you know that the word 'however' carries a lot of weight. 

What do you mean by that you "give by faith however"?

What do you mean by "Love propels me"?

WinsomeX:


Those are my words and I am sure you can see the context in which they were made.

Now how do those quotes relate to the subject of tithing, Galatians or even the matter of Christians and curses that we have been talking about?

Can you yourself see my point of how you evade issues by dragging matters into unrelated subjects?

Gombs:

I don't understand! Should we take in parts your words and ignore the rest? Huh?

WinsomeX:


I am telling Bidam, whom I was discussing with before you jumped into the fray without understanding what we are even saying, to quote me correctly to relevant subjects!

We were discussing tithes, Galatians and Christian curses and seeing that the logic of his presentations had been soundly rebutted, he admits he cannot continue the discuss by making a statement that I had won (I wonder if it that was to make me happy or whar) and then brings issues of my criticising popular ministers. And I admit I criticize them within a context but I am pleading to understand how such relate to the subject we are discussing. If it is not another attempt to turn the tide.

WinsomeX:

Galatians is the Christian strength that deliveredus from seeking justification or salvation before God through work, tithing or any such works. Our salvation is complete oncd and for all, and a walk in love is a sign of a truly saved individual not the keeping of the law and certainly not tifhing.

The Christian is under a higher law than that of Moses. It demands more of us only in the context of a moral demand that exemplifies charity or love, and that's why Jesus distinguished the Christian law from Moses this way:

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the fact that we no longer obey Moses does not mean we are lawless. The Spirit of God still compels us to live right.



There is no curse on the Christian in that passage. There is cause and effect no doubt. For those under a law of sin and death, the effect was a curse of death. For those under the law of Spirit of life, the effect is always life. They may experience chastening but it is for greater life in Christ.



This is the commandments in the New Testament:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.



I hope you don't mean that such a Christian will loose his salvation? That will be drawing us backwards. Those who keep God's commandments are Christians justified by grace alone and keeping the law of love. Dogs are unbelievers. As to dogs returning to their vomit, that's your own private interpretation of that scripture. While dogs can retutn to their vomit, the context referred to unbelievers as dogs. What will happen to justified Christians who backslide is not what you and I can decide the side of heaven. The one who saved them is able to keep them safe till the end.

That's the story of the NT. That's the gist of Galatians.

Now you have two posts to respond to.

Bidam:
Yet you sit and accuse Hagin, Myles Munroe, Oyedepo calling and making unchristian comments against them saying they are not heaven worthy. Yawn. You don win. Are you satisfied? I get put off easily when i see long lengthy irrelevancies.

Gombs:

Ok

WinsomeX:


Those are my words and I am sure you can see the context in which they were made.

Now how do those quotes relate to the subject of tithing, Galatians or even the matter of Christians and curses that we have been talking about?

Can you yourself see my point of how you evade issues by dragging matters into unrelated subjects?

Bidam:
These are self professed Christians. To label them false teachers because you do not agree with their teachings is taking it too far cos we know where the scriptures says false teachers and prophets would end. If you could condemn them in such manner when Jesus never condemn them, how much more the arguments you brought about a christian who is free from 613laws and the curses in them. That was my analogy, i guess you got carried away with your Galatians wahala.

Gombs:


I give my givings in faith, Abraham’s faith.... I give with love in my heart

trustman:


Can you please clarify the above.

WinsomeX:


Now I get you. I wish you were this Lucid in the first instance. Now I humbly request that you give simple answers to these questions?

1. What is the central theme of the teachings of Myles Munroe, David Oyedepo or Chris Oyakhilome?

2. What was the central theme of Jesus' messages?

3. What was the central theme of Paul's messages?

4. Look up Matthew 7: 21ff; Matthew 24; Galatians 1:6-9; 1 Timothy 4; Jude; 2John; and 2 Peter and tell me what the bible thinks of false teachers and false doctrines?

5. Did the bible say that false teachers will be Many or few at the end times?

As you offer answers to these questions, you will realize that it is a man of great charity that will endeavor to warn others of pending doom, while he that hates that hates you will cheer you on in your destructive ways.

One of the saddest realities that has befallen the WoF movement is death. When it was thriving in the 60s, many of them thought they will live till rapture. But alas here they are, dying one after the other.

It is a wise theology that has its hope fixed in heaven and not on earth.

I trust God, Bidam, that you will catch a glimpse of Jesus heart for his church and then you may possibly understand my position. Do I need to tell you the story of Jesus wiping men out of the temple? Was he mad or something else had consumed him?? I know sincere Christians when I listen to them even when they don't share my ideologies but I know devils in suits also. And I am not one of those who will sugar my words to lessen offence while describing them.

Gombs:


I don't know how else.

WinsomeX:
@Bidam

I actually asked five questions for which you provided no answers. I am not saying whether they preach repentance or faith or any such gospel theme, I asked what is the central theme of their messages? And I will supply you the answer.

Oyedepo central theme is FAITH. Now if this faith was the Christian saving faith, I would have no problem with it. But his "faith" is one for getting things - mundane things. A faith that has no grasp of an eternal hope but only of things of this world.

Oyakhilome central theme is also faith, with a subscription to Success principles and excellence in life and ministry, and of course, signs and wonders. A cursory look at his ministry will not reveal it's true rot. Recent events in his life has actually brought to fore our long known suspicion that a ministry that disdains the orthodox commitment to holiness will have the worst sort of immorality going on beneath. And thanks to Sir John we now know that his ministry's claim to healing is also a fraud. The recent revelation that the one Joagbaje claimed he healed of HIV, was never healed has further buttressed the falsehood in the whole church.

Then Munroe. Myles preaches on Purpose, Leadership, all generally under the self help theme, and despite BabaGnoni defence of him on my thread, I am yet to be convinced that self help is the gospel of Christ.

You mentioned Adeboye, whom I tried to avoid for the fact that more people are sentimentally attached to him than anyone else. But he might even be the worst of them all as he preaches a holiness gospel alongside a prosperity gospel. There is no such thing in the bible.

You refer to their messages as having "life improvement" as a theme but my question to you is that is this the emphasis of the scriptures? Let me try and tell you the emphasis of scriptures:

1. The story of redemption: Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men and rose for our justification. This is the good news, the gospel.

2. That this gospel might be proclaimed to all men and that repentance and faith might be required from them.

3. That men who profess faith in Christ might live the gospel and proclaim it in a honorable way.

4. That the gospel of faith, love and hope might be preached to the church of the living God that God's people might have hope in a precarious world.

5. That God's good providence may be proclaimed to the church and that God's people may put hope in God to meet their needs. And if this need is not met, that they may trust in God always inspite of.

It is the fifth theme that has blossomed and become the heretic gospel of prosperity.

Jesus and his apostles never preached a faith for getting things at the expense of that of eternity; they never advertised miracles; they didn't preach leadership or motivational messages; they preached the gospel. Paul told Timothy to preach the word. What word are these ministers preaching?

Another proof of the fact that these men are not doing ministry in the manner the Master or his apostles did it is in the sort of obscene wealth they display. Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Adeoye or even the late Munroe are not the first preachers the world has ever known. There have been prominent Christian preachers since the apostles: from Augustine to Thomas Aquinas to Martin Luther to John Wesley to C H Spurgeon to F B Meyer to our own Ayo Babalola of the CAC; non of them were known for wealth, talk less obscene wealth. Our preachers today preach a false gospel of prosperity, sponsored by the faithful but naive tithing of the people, and the ministers are the ones smiling to the bank, saying God is good. This is falsehood. This is wrong. And they should be told.

Scriptures say many will be deceived and will deceive many. We are in those times my friend and rather than offering lame excuses for these men, I advice you develop some discernment.

trustman:


What does giving in faith, [size=20pt]Abraham's faith mean?[/size]

BabaGnoni:


I never defended Myles Munroe but highlighted the fact that I have never and wasn't at any time interested in Myles Munroe's "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises
My main and only interest in Myles Munroe, was his eye-opening teachings and explanations of the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God
- I see no one teach and explain it easily and well the way he did

There is no where on that thread I prevented attacks or stopped attacks on Myles Munroe

I made remarks to the effect that Myles Munroe never classed or called his "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises, the gospel.

and also remarked, for good reasons, that, as for Myles Munroe's capers, that will be for God or "America" to know
- maybe next year, two years time, five years or ten years time, we can talk about them

THE SINS OF PASTOR E A ADEBOYE

David Oludairo

(Apologies if you are unhappy to be tagged in this post. Pls de-tag yourself and accept my regrets. Thanks)

This is not for everybody. But those that it is meant for will be able to receive it.

The Almighty God raised Pastor E A Adeboye (EAA) to be a huge General in the army He is raising in Nigeria at a crucial time in the life of that nation. At a very critical and sensitive time for Nigeria - spiritually, politically, socio-economically, etc. In the books of the Almighty God, EAA was to be an Apostle to Nigeria, in the mould that Apostle Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles – anointed to influence tens of millions, with that number growing as time rolls down the hill. That is his calling.

But instead of shepherding Nigeria for Christ, EAA got entangled in the web of denominationalism, and narrowed his focus to the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG). The division that is in the Body of Christ today, conveniently called denominationalism, is not of God – it is a satanic arrow in the Body of Christ. An arrow to fragment the Body into ineffectual pieces that will not be able to devastate the kingdom of the devil. Satan knows that true strength, for the followers of Jesus Christ, lies in their unity; just as Jesus prayed earnestly in John 17, “…that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE (vs 11) … That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAST SENT ME. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE. I in them, and thou in me, that THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE… (vs 21 -23). Jesus used the word ‘ONE’ seven times in just four verses! He also gave the reason why ONENESS is critical: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The power for witness is indeed in the unity of the Body.

But, rather than bridging the satanic fracturing of the Body in Nigeria, EAA moved into the arena, and became the champion! Today, he heads the biggest denomination in Nigeria, has the biggest camp, the biggest auditorium, the biggest monthly gathering, the biggest annual gathering, the biggest number of international branches, the biggest this, the biggest that. And he seems to be on a mission to outdo himself in the quest for RCCG to indeed be seen to be the biggest in all facets. But is this his commission from God? He has received anointing for a whole nation, and concentrated it on a denomination in the nation. And that is what he will answer for on the Day of Judgment.

Men are applauding him today everywhere for the spectacular ‘achievement’ he is recording. Even the Church, in our shameful and crass blindness, exalt him to the highest heavens. A while ago, a youth wing of RCCG organised a seven-day marathon praise session to thank the Lord for the life of Pastor Adeboye! (I do not know if the Church stopped that madness, or if they allowed it to go on).

If the Lord indeed made EAA the ‘chairman’ of the Church in Nigeria, his failure in that task is evident by the state of the Church in Nigeria today. Never in the history of the Church in that nation has its reputation been as low as it is today – simply because the man that God anointed to oversee the Gospel in that nation has abandoned his duty post. Leadership of the Church in Nigeria today is rudderless, while God’s appointed man for the position jets all over the world to establish more branches of his denomination! In this regard, if we dare to say the truth, the failure of the Church in Nigeria today, is the failure of Pastor E A Adeboye. And unless he repents, and repents quickly, he will answer for that nation on the Day of Judgment.

And for those who have spiritual eyes, the result of EAA’s mistake is evident. As amiable, likeable, humble as EAA is, there is no single figure that is as divisive in the Church in Nigeria today as this great man of God. He sets the pace that other mis-guided men of God are chasing. He sets the standards that other men of God aspire to emulate. And because he is going in the wrong direction, you can imagine the number of God’s servants in Nigeria, and indeed all over the world, that are behind him in chasing shadows. And while they chase shadows, the devil is getting away with daylight murder in Nigeria – and now on the verge of splitting that nation; unless God intervenes in 2015. This is what happens when God’s servants become half-blind or totally blind – especially His top servants.

I was led to write this today for several reasons (though my love and respect for EAA remains intact):

1) The most important reason is this: If you have eyes, please pray, pray, and pray for EAA. God does not see as men see. If He is not fulfilling the scope of His calling, men may applaud him as a huge success in ministry, but God will judge him according to His commission for him. Pls pray that God will open EAA’s eyes to the epicentre of God’s purpose for his life. If he moves today from the position of a denominational general overseer to start overseeing the whole nation for Christ, he can still achieve a lot for Christ in Nigeria in his old age. And at least, he will die at his duty post, however late he was at arriving there. This will be a very difficult step for EAA, but if we all pray concertedly for him, what can prayers not do? Does our God still not show mercy? Will He not extend His mercy to this great servant of His? Finally, even if you do not believe all that you have read here, would you please pray like this: “O Lord, please locate Pastor Adeboye at the exact centre of your will for his life. Amen”

2) The second reason is so that ALL OF US will become more careful in understanding the epicentre of God’s will for our lives. In the Christian calling, IT IS VERY EASY TO STRAY AWAY FROM THE CENTRE OF HIS CALLING. You may be ‘successful’ in ministry in the eyes of man, but please note that God is evaluating you by a different standard entirely. And on the Day of Judgment, the applause of men will fall silent, and ONLY the counsel of God shall stand. Seek that counsel today, and stick with it as if your life depends on it – for it does.

3) All that glitters, particularly in Christian ministry, is NOT gold. Stop following the footsteps of men blindly. Even those that we call the ‘big men of God’, being human, are fallible. In the things of God, satan is not a respecter of anybody – he even tried to trick Jesus Christ away from the epicentre of His calling (Matthew 4:1-11). If he tried it on Jesus, anointed from the womb, he can try it on ANY OTHER MAN.

4) So that we can know that time has changed over the Church. God is not dealing with the Church the way He was dealing with us, even at the beginning of 2014. As the final Day of Judgment approaches, God is cleaning His house, and preparing His genuine bride for the imminent arrival of the Bridegroom. In this cleansing task, THERE ARE NO SACRED COWS. When He is fully ready, God will start with those we see as the ‘big men’ so that all of us will quickly realise that THE CHURCH IS ALL ABOUT JESUS CHRIST, AND HIM ALONE. All vice-regents on the throne will be cast down like leaves at winter. This process will be more apparent in due course, please watch out.

5) Finally, all this is not a show! God is beginning to wake up His Church and sensitise us to the condition of our souls before Him. Many have been misled to believe they are on the way to heaven, when they have not even had a real encounter with Jesus that will lead to a genuine re-birth. The way to eternal life remains narrow, in spite of how some men of God have widened it to make it more accommodating for all and sundry. God is not mocked. He knows those who are His own (2 Timothy 2:19). Are you one of them?

In the name of the Almighty God, I beg you to pray earnestly for Pastor Adeboye – even if you do not believe a single word of what you read here. Your sincere prayers will not hurt him. The well-being of Pastor Enoch Adejare Adeboye is the well-being of the Church in Nigeria. And the well-being of the whole nation of Nigeria. This is how much God values him. This is how much God loves him.

Please, please pray for him.

Thanks for reading, God bless.

GOD, WHY DID YOU CREATE THE POOR?

By Nuyiwa Adetiba

This is a true story. A close friend was driving on a fairly busy road on Lagos Island when he was stopped by a traffic light. He looked right and his eyes caught a nine or ten year old child crying uncontrollably by the side. The sight so moved him that he parked his car and got down to see what was making the child so distraught. It turned out that the figures didn’t add up for the poor child. The money she had on her from the day’s sales did not correspond to what was left of her wares and she knew all hell would break loose at home. My friend solved the problem the only way he could – by making up the difference. But it was a disturbed man that walked into his air-conditioned SUV. Emotions welled up inside him as he narrated the story to his wife. At a point he started sobbing and had to park the car for the second time. The wife who had hardly seen her husband of thirty years cry had to take over the steering that evening. It was a sober couple that went to bed at night.

I am sure it was not the first time my friend was seeing children dash in and out of traffic with goods that amounted to very little as it is a common sight on many, if not all Nigerian major roads. But something tweaked inside him that evening. His brief conversation with the hapless child brought home the importance of ten, twenty Naira to a family that is really struggling to exist.

In a normal setting, a ten-year old should have finished her home work by six, had one or two hours of play time with her peers and be looking forward to an evening meal. She should not at ten, be balancing books with dire consequences if they didn’t add up. She should not have to miss out on the joy of childhood so easily or lose the innocence of childhood so quickly. A child on the road at six in the evening is at a considerable risk. What the danfo drivers might not do the okada drivers will accomplish. Then there are the child molesters, child abductors and child rapists. In all probability, her walk home at dusk, would take her through short cuts that would further expose her to untold risks. Would she tell if she was raped or molested? In any case who would listen? Her death would be as insignificant and invisible as her life has been. And how far would she go to get an extra Naira into her pocket?

I don’t know what actually made my friend to cry that evening. But the story of the very poor in Nigeria will well up emotions in you if you have a compassionate mind. I know I have had to look away sometimes when a particular scene disturbs me. It is true that Nigeria has no business having over 60% of her population in extreme poverty when we pump two million barrels of oil per day. It is true, and studies have proved it, that just 10% of the money our leaders and their cronies fritter away will reduce the poverty ratio by as much as 30%. But what about you and I and the life styles we lead? How many of us spend considerable sum on consumables and goods we don’t need against Warren Buffet’s injunction to spend only on what we need? An average ‘middle class’ Nigerian should plead guilty and I will explain why. Once a month, he attends his old school meeting. After an hour or so of a directionless meeting, the food comes out along with expensive liquor. He and his mates gorge themselves on these until they are satiated. The rest is put in the freezer or thrown away. The next Sunday is the church society meeting. Again we permit ourselves an hour of a directionless meeting before the food and drinks come out. The following Sunday is a town meeting and so on. The Saturdays are filled with weddings and birthdays. The success of these functions is measured by the quantum of food served and wasted. A very successful wedding is the one that has bottles of champagne on every table and is able to serve three, four course meals.

Now, before you attend your next function lets crunch some figures. More than half of the world’s population lives on less than 500 Naira per day. Over one billion children live in poverty with over 20,000 dying every day due to poverty. Almost 30% of children in developing countries are underweight or stunted. Nigeria has not in any way helped global statistics because we are actually above the global average in almost every index. So a 12-year old on the streets in Nigeria might actually be 15 or more. It gets disconcerting when we read that the wealthiest 10% use 60% of the world’s consumption while the poorest 10% use just 0.5% and even more so in Nigeria where the richest 10% corner almost a whopping 90% of what all of us consume. So each time you want to indulge yourself, think of the fact that one billion out of 2.2 billion children are in poverty.

So why did God create the poor?

A man of God told a story of a wealthy man who found himself in a poor neighbourhood. He saw congestion, he saw leaked roofs that could only promote diseases and he realised that his domestic animals had a better living condition. He went home a sad man and for once, the ambience of his home only depressed him more. A rich array of food was waiting for him but he couldn’t eat. So he went to his room and stared unseeing at his panelled ceiling. In frustration he cried out; ‘God if you are so compassionate then why did you create the poor and allow so much suffering?’ A soft voice replied him; ‘son that’s why I created you’.
All Christian youths know the story of the three servants who were given talents. Two invested and one buried his. The moral was that we should never bury our talents otherwise it would be taken away from us. But have we ever stopped to think of the master who gave out the talents and in so doing shared his possession, his estate? That the moral might actually be that we should also share? The GDP of 41 indebted countries is less that the wealth of seven of the richest combined. It’s a no brainer therefore that poverty would reduce if they could just shed a bit. After all just one percent of the money spent on arms would put all children, 72million of them, in school.

WinsomeX:
At least, for one thing, those who might have thought BabaGnoni was I, they would know better.

BBG, your point is noted.

Gombs:


[KJV] Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;:

Simple

trustman:


Gombs,
How does this passage relate to giving or tithing?

WinsomeX:



One of the saddest realities that has befallen the WoF movement is death. When it was thriving in the 60s, many of them thought they will live till rapture. But alas here they are, dying one after the other.

.

Gombs:


When I give or tithe I stagger not at the promise of God through unbelief; but I'd be strong in faith, giving glory to God;