Bidam:
For God's sake!! When will Christians move past this self-destructive arguments and let others feel free to enjoy how God leads them in their daily lives?

Bidam:
Good back to the tithe issue. Remember instead of drawing me to arguments on the LAW that tithing and any other type of giving (freewill, donations, alms, contributions, etc) are not the basis of our salvation or justification in Christ.

The very fact that Paul drew from passages of the OT Law on tithing in order to teach on support and sustenance for preachers of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 is as a good argument as any to say God want it done his way not trustman's way. The Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving". If the citation of 1 Corinthians 9:13 does not answer your request, please tell me what system other than the Levitical system Paul was referring to in that verse.

shdemidemi:


Is that what we are discussing here. If you like to understand the settings of the bible why don't you wait to discuss that after the topic at hand or open a separate thread for it.

depends on what?

Did He command us to be stoned to death when we go against Him like He did in the old?

Where did sin get its power to condemn and kill?

If there was no law, will there be sin?

Romans 7
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence[size=32pt] For without the law sin was dead[/size].




When we say a portion of scripture was not directly speaking to the church, we don't mean discard all that was written. The bible says all were written for our learning and the words of Jesus isn't different in that respect.

He preached a kingdom and instructed the Jews to keep the message away from non-Israelites. Meaning not every part was primarily addressed to us.

Christ represented a shift in the law especially after two years of his earthly ministry. He constantly violates the sabbath.

Moreover, go and sin no more does not mean that lady becomes perfect, does it? She will yet sin hence why Christ needed to doe for her and for you on the cross: Not because He sinned but because we sinned and will yet sin.

Are you sure? Quote the scripture lets peruse together.

Gombs:


Great bro... it's something else. I just knew the job to do is even greater. No more dragging irrelevancies here. I'd start an online outreach to the middle east. Alot of grounds to cover bro. For those here who knew how the church should be, I pray they translate it into the physical. How can God tell them how his church should be, and all they do is type all day, criticizing? It's certain, THEY ARE NOT OF GOD. simple.

I'm off for the morning session. Cheers

Gombs:


Great bro... it's something else. I just knew the job to do is even greater. No more dragging irrelevancies here. I'd start an online outreach to the middle east. Alot of grounds to cover bro. For those here who knew how the church should be, I pray they translate it into the physical. How can [size=14pt]God tell them how his church should be[/size], and all they do is type all day, criticizing? It's certain, THEY ARE NOT OF GOD. simple.

I'm off for the morning session. Cheers

trustman:
[size=5.8pt][/size]

If like you said " The Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving" then the underlying thing we should derive from it is NOT that we should do EXACTLY what the Levitical system said to do BUT that GIVING (as a PRINCIPLE DERIVED from it) should be encouraged. 
Do you agree with this?

It will then be right to say Christians should GIVE whatever they choose to give in line with 2 Corinthians 9:7
"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.". 

On the other hand it will be WRONG to ask, coerce, pressure, cajole or threaten a Christian to give or be constantly giving a fixed percent of his income. This will go against 2 Corinthians 9:7. 

The principle is giving. The principle is not in giving a mandatory percentage. There lies the issue. And there is a big difference between the two. 

The liberty the Christian has in Christ negates the issue of 'forced' tithing. Any teaching asking, cajoling, coercing, pressuring, or threatening the Christian  to tithe is therefore deception and outright evil. 

Gombs:


I only wish they knew how much time they're wasting. True gospel preachers indeed.

Gombs:


Great bro... it's something else. I just knew the job to do is even greater. No more dragging irrelevancies here. I'd start an online outreach to the middle east. Alot of grounds to cover bro. For those here who knew how the church should be, I pray they translate it into the physical. How can God tell them how his church should be, and all they do is type all day, criticizing? It's certain, THEY ARE NOT OF GOD. simple.

I'm off for the morning session. Cheers

Bidam:


The problem with some folks here is the effort to either side or to force each person's own belief upon others. This is unchristian.

trustman:


The real problem is that (and it has been shown even on this thread; examples were sighted) Christians are being 'forced' to COMPULSORILY do those things you have listed as NOT being compulsory. That is the tragedy.

It is not the issue of forcing one's belief on another. It is that of simply getting what the scripture says should obtain.

In this case: should the Christian give? Yes. Must the Christian tithe? No.

Bidam:
Like i kept on repeating on this forum which you are deaf to is that as long as anti-tithers say that they have no problems with voluntary tithes/tithing, I don't think that some of us here will continue with this line of debate. The problem is are they actually ready to embrace it?
In a Christian's walk with God,
1. Giving is not compulsory
2. Prayer is not compulsory
3. Marriage is not compulsory
4. Eating is not compulsory
5. Singing is not compulsory
6. Fasting is not compulsory
7. Going to Church is not compulsory
. . . and a whole other things that are not 'compulsory'.

The problem with some folks here is the effort to either side or to force each person's own belief upon others. This is unchristian.

Gombs:


Exactly, it isn't a must. A quick quiz....should a Christian be forced to stop tithing? If yes, why?

vooks:
Nobody should prescribe to a Christian WHAT to give, they should give without compulsion (threats, manipulation) whatever they purpose in their hearts (not arbitrary FIXED percentages)

Bidam:
You never did address my reply to initial post. Inside my deut post you quoted your answers were addressed when i said you quoted gal out of context. You strayed off like a dog discussing obadiah and others as if i cared.And you expect me to answer the silliest of all replies you put up here? Men, you gotta think up and tank up.

Bidam:
How do you twist Galatians to your destruction? Was tithing ever mentioned in that verse? SMH! Why don't you read the CONTEXT to understand the import of what Paul was talking about rather than this half hearted attempts at lifting verses out of context to form an erroneous doctrine.

What is the setting of these verses of scripture? The issue is HOW is a person justified or saved in the eyes of God. Paul quotes from the JEWISH scriptures to make his point in the matter.

In Galatians 3:8, Paul quotes from Genesis 12:3.
In Galatians 3:10, Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 27:26 and i told vooks tithing wasn't mentioned in that place either. wink
In Galatians 3:11, Paul quotes from Habakkuk 2:4
In Galatians 3:12, Paul quotes from Leviticus 18:5
In Galatians 3:13, Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 21:23
The issue being discussed in Galatians 3 is HOW is a person SAVED in the eyes of God? Paul answers the question by quoting from the Jewish
scriptures including the Torah and stating that a person is SAVED by God through faith in the work of the Messiah and not by his own works.

Law simply means instruction so when issues of fleeing fornication, idolatry and the likes that christian are warned to steer clear of what you are saying is that Christians are under a curse by following those instructions abi? using your Gal 3:10.Good reasoning. cheesy

As for the 1cor 10 i quoted to you, pls read 11.
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Now let's go to the end of the Bible:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie (Revelation 22:14-15).

So a christian who goes back to his vomit is not exempted either.Not being able to enter the kingdom is a curse for the age to come.

Gombs:


Should a Christian be forced to stop tithing?

Bidam:

I won't quote those lengthy verses where God delayed judgement when the children of Israel transgressed. You go on a search that why you have the bible.

Bidam:

So adultery is the only example you could come up with? Do you understand that the christian is a spiritual man to start with?

Bidam:

You keep mixing everything up, now how can i addressed this anomaly? Firstly The law is in itself, holy, just, good, and spiritual (Rom. 7:12-14). Before the law the whole world is guilty, and the law is therefore of necessity, a ministry of condemnation, Paul as a purist and a Pharisee was discussing his experience where he had to come to the place of real struggle and bitter conflict between the inner and the outer man. The outer man has a real desire to serve sin but the inner man has a desire to serve and obey the Lord and this is where believers need the strength of the Holy Spirit an not only studying scriptures. The way to manifest victory on the outside and the way to manifest a walk that is worthy of the Lord is to be built up in strength in the inner man and that can be accomplish through praying in tongues( Jude 10). A weak inner man tends to walk the path of sin, a weak inner man can't walk strong on the outside and this is where prayer is vital and important.

Bidam:
Pls Christ words is/was addressed to us, Hear Paul : 3 [b]If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,[/b] 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 1 Timothy 6.

Bidam:
It's in Hebrews 10:16, but i guess it wasn't written to you.

Gombs:


Exactly, it isn't a must. A quick quiz....should a Christian be forced to stop tithing? If yes, why?

vooks:
Should a Christian be forced to stop circumcision?

vooks:
Funny you know what is UnChristian but you don't hesitate prescribing schizophrenia drugs on this thread
Nobody will ever tell you that tithing is mandatory. No minister forces you to tithe or give any amount of offering. So on this account, there are no mandatory offering/giving in ANY church. Tithing is not taxation

What ministers engage in is MANIPULATION so that members part with more than they otherwise could. How is this accomplished?
1. Carrot- Promises of utopia are constantly flashed before believers as a consequence of tithing or offering. So called 'open heaven', new jobs, stable marriages, health...all these are dangled.
Believers are enticed with these things in varying degrees from church to church. And they fall for them. Giving is presented as panacea to ALL their needs

2. Stick- Believers are threatened with DIRE consequences for failing to tithe/give. They range from hellfire,curses,stagnation,losses to demonic attacks and chronic sicknesses

If your spiritual authority,somebody you trust tells you you are going to hell for failure to render to him 10% of your income what would you do?

Majority of Evangelicals Still Tithe

Leith Anderson notes that tithing from the OT is ‘the primary giving guide for modern day Christians.’ Responding to Holmes, he noted that while the keyword in the NAE survey was ‘required‘, nonetheless “about 95% of those who responded to our survey said that they at least tithed – they give 10% or more. So, they do tithe even though they think that it is not a requirement.”

http://givingtithes.com/majority-of-evangelicals-still-tithe/

_____________________________________________

Evangelical Leaders and the Language of Tithes

Comments by Alan Robinson of the Brethren in Christ Church sets this concern in context -“Tithing was an Old Testament legal model that ought to lead New Testament Christians to lives of sacrificial generosity. While tithing is not ‘required’ today, it is my view that Christian generosity will, at a minimum, reflect the Old Testament requirements of the law and should, in fact, greatly exceed it.”

http://givingtithes.com/nae-language-of-tithe/

Tithes are to be used to take care of widows, the helpless, and services in the house of God. Why should they come to you to say we want to pay NEPA bills, we want to pay church staff? People that are working in the ministry have to be paid and the organisation has to be run. But it’s never compulsory. If anybody tells you if you don’t pay tithe you will remain tight, greed in his heart is influencing that because Christ has become the cross for us. . . .
Do I pay tithe? Definitely. But I don’t make it a law for everybody. I do from my earnings because I don’t depend on church offerings. My hands, like Paul’s, provided for my necessities. I pay my tax like any other citizen of this country. I pay from my legitimate earnings. If I have to wait for them to give on Sundays before I send my children to school and eat, then something is wrong.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-718091.0.html

Bidam:
[size=3pt] I did apologize in my previous post to you. You also are guilty of same.
Your assertions here are your opinions if not backed by facts and statistics. The truth is there are many pastors who teach tithes as voluntary, while others argue that it is mandatory. I have facts to back this claim. National Evangelical Association (NAE) carried out a survey on whether church leaders feel that tithing is "required" from Christians. The result is that 58% do not teach that tithing is "required" while 42% actually do. You may want to see the following -

The point is that there is an overwhelming majority of Christian leaders in Western churches that tithe and teach it on voluntary basis.

Now back to our home turf, i saw your quotes of some Nigeria pastors( even though you are not a nigerian) who insist that tithes are compulsory and I don't agree with some views there, but it smacks of gross dishonesty on you and your cohorts to insist and brand that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes.

Now i am not omniscient so i don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a source even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -[/size]


So i don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

trustman:


Not if he has "decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.". 2 Corinthians 9:7

[quote author=WinsomeX post=28241771]

If you had bothered to read that post you will see that I adressed much of your misconceptions in the post I was referring you to but at the risk of repeating myself, I will respond to your post and you should do the gentleman and respond to mine.

Galatians 3:10 said: As many as are the works of the law are under the curse. Two things, what are the works of the law; what was the curse?

1. The works of the law are all the 613 laws of Moses including the ten commandments. For which tithing is one of them. If you think otherwise, show us in scripture.
2. What is THE curse, the one pronounced on any one who broke them.

Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Now you will come under that curse as long as you observe the law bc you are certain to break the law. This is the reason Christians are not under that law and cannot be subject to it's curse. We are under a new law: love or the law of Spirit of life. There is no curse in that law; no death.

So what is the context of Galatians? You said:



The fact that Paul quoted from the Torah does not mean he authorized Christians to live by the Torah. The OT, the Torah, is the foundation on which the new Testament was founded but the changes the New Testament said had occured must be taken to cognisance.

So the context of Galatians is NOT how to be justified but how to REMAIN justified or saved. Galatians 3:1 shows clearly that the Galatians were saved already but some came and showed them another way to REMAIN saved, they said they were to e circumcised and to keep the Torah. Paul rejected this and showed that the Christian is justified once and after that is not under obligation to keep the Torah but to walk under a new law of love. That's Galatians and Paul laid out a curse on anyone who preached any other gospel than this; he also said such was cut off from Christ.

Galatians is the Christian strength that deliveredus from seeking justification or salvation before God through work, tithing or any such works. Our salvation is complete oncd and for all, and a walk in love is a sign of a truly saved individual not the keeping of the law and certainly not tifhing.

The Christian is under a higher law than that of Moses. It demands more of us only in the context of a moral demand that exemplifies charity or love, and that's why Jesus distinguished the Christian law from Moses this way:

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the fact that we no longer obey Moses does not mean we are lawless. The Spirit of God still compels us to live right.



There is no curse on the Christian in that passage. There is cause and effect no doubt. For those under a law of sin and death, the effect was a curse of death. For those under the law of Spirit of life, the effect is always life. They may experience chastening but it is for greater life in Christ.



This is the commandments in the New Testament:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.



I hope you don't mean that such a Christian will loose his salvation? That will be drawing us backwards. Those who keep God's commandments are Christians justified by grace alone and keeping the law of love. Dogs are unbelievers. As to dogs returning to their vomit, that's your own private interpretation of that scripture. While dogs can retutn to their vomit, the context referred to unbelievers as dogs. What will happen to justified Christians who backslide is not what you and I can decide the side of heaven. The one who saved them is able to keep them safe till the end.

That's the story of the NT. That's the gist of Galatians.

Now you have two posts to respond to

Gombs:


Good..But I have decided so, so has million others, why do some guys still hunt me for it?

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

WHY WE GIVE OUR FIRST FRUITS? (THE BENEFITS)
We are commanded to give it [Prov 3: 9-10, Ex 22: 29] By giving your first fruit, you secure and sanctify the rest of your fruits ( Rom 11: 16) We give our first fruits that the blessing of God may rest upon us ( Eze 44:30) By giving it, you demonstrate your appreciation for God and the things He has done in your life (Deut 26:10 – 11) It releases the anointing upon your life. The bible says thy presses shall burst out with new wine. New wine symbolizes the anointing ( Prov 3:9) God is delighted in our obedience to His word; for it is better to obey than to sacrifice [I Sam 15: 22] If you don’t give your first fruit, God will go after it because it belongs to Him ( Ex 4: 22 – 23) Anyone who holds back his First Fruit exposes himself to evil. As God said to Israel. [Jeremiah 2: 3]....

WAYS OF GIVING FIRST FRUITS
1. New Job: First salary package
2. New Year: First salary or first income ( for those who don’t earn a salary)
3. Old Job (Promotions) – Increase i.e. the difference between the old and new salary. (If your heart condemns you go ahead and give all. He is looking for something to multiply back to you).


https://www.facebook.com/READRHAPSODYOFREALITIES/posts/651164134943691

In Malachi 3:8-11, God said all His children who are robbing Him in tithes and offerings have violated His covenant, and therefore are under a divine curse. However, He says if they will restitute their ways, He will personally rebuke the devourer for their sakes and open the windows of Heaven to them and give them a blessing they will be unable to contain. There are two type of devourers – the ones sent by the devil (John 10:10) and the ones sent by God. To deal with the devourers sent by the devil, simply resist him and he will flee from you as long as you are in right standing before God. But to deal with the devourers sent by God, it is through restitution. You will have to cry to God for forgiveness and thereafter undo what made Him to send the devourers in the first place. Do you owe God in tithes, offerings, thanksgiving or vows? Ask for forgiveness and go ahead and pay what you owe. If it is in tithes, also add 20% as interest being the penalty or eating your tithes (Leviticus 27:31).

https://www.nairaland.com/1458058/open-heavens-daily-devotional-sunday

Quoting Malachi, Robertson responded, “Your husband has all these medical problems because the ‘devourer’ has not been rebuked. You need to rebuke him. You give your tithes faithfully and God said, ‘I will rebuke the devourer,’ the person that is eating up your money and eating up your health. So you want to be healthy? That’s a promise in the Word.”

https://www.nairaland.com/1541026/pat-robertson-tells-elderly-woman

vooks:
And nobody tarred nobody with the same brush
It is the message not the messenger that is confronted. Names are mentioned to demonstrate the reality of the subject; MANIPULATION

What do you think are the consequences of teaching tithing as MANDATORY? [size=16pt]I compare tithing to circumcision. Somebody taught that circumcision was mandatory for believers in the first century.[/size] The disciples never responded by teaching that it was not mandatory, they censured it completely because it was both irrelevant and burdensome for the Church especially Gentiles.

An honest minister ought to do the same, not teaching refurbished modernized version of Torah. Tell the members to give according to Pauline formula of 'without compulsion' as 'you purpose in your heart'.

Gombs:


Good..But I have decided so, so has million others, why do some guys still hunt me for it?

shdemidemi:


You say he delayed judgement. Why did He have to delay judgement and in most cases why did He destroy some instantly?

There is a law. Transgression of these laws are accompanied with penalties, whether delayed or otherwise.

The question is if God operates with the church by this same principle.

Ok, I will give another example. What did the law say about a stubborn son?

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Does this apply to a christian?

Can you not just stay within the confines of discourse. Now, you have added prayer, tongues etc.

Address the post and stop soaring like one without balance.

Did the bold statement mean the word of God should not be rightly divided?

Was Paul teaching the ministry words of Jesus as recorded in the 4 gospel books?

Did the risen Christ (Spirit) not speak to Paul as well?

Did Jesus (physical) ever say you need to believe in his death and ascension to be saved? but Paul said that, isn't that message from the Lord Jesus Christ?

What does the bible say about jesus' ministry-
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision(Jews) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

What did Jesus say before it became evident that Israel will not accept their king-

Matthew 15:24
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

quote am na.. u dey fear!

trustman:


How did you decide; because you're trying to avoid a negative consequence of not giving or to make God feel obliged to give you some positive things?

Your true motive for deciding is what will determine if it falls in line with scriptural prescription or outside God's approved way of approaching it.

Let me ask you this: Does your basis of decision fall in line with 2 Corinthians 9:7?

[quote author=WinsomeX post=28248361]

I was really looking forward to a healthy dialogue with you but as you usual you have found a convenient exit. But knowing that you will still go ahead propagating these errors, I will point out somethings and make it as short as possible since you have problem reading long posts except if you are the one making them.

1. Since the law promised blessing and curses, to reject the curses will include rejecting the blessings too; that's why Christianity is not a pursuit of blessings as many have turned it into today but a pursuit of Christ. Now since we are in Christ already, we do not pursue blessings, we are blessed already: Eph 1:3.

2. The whole gist of Galatians was about the works of the law not making us right in God's eyes. Circumcision was simply a case in point. Galatians is relevant to us today bc folks seek to exalt points of the law like tithing, sabbath, circumcision, etc and need to be reminded of Paul's apeal. Galatians took up new meaning for the Reformers bc in their time the Romish Church exalted works again as means of acceptance with God.

3. And your last point about my views on popular ministers is really not needed except you wish to quote me and pls quote me correctly. If I am critical of them, it always within a context. I have a thread on Munroe right now, you can go there and quote me correctly and not make blanket irrational statements

WinsomeX:


3. And your last point about my views on popular ministers is really not needed except you wish to quote me and pls quote me correctly. If I am critical of them, it always within a context. I have a thread on Munroe right now, you can go there and quote me correctly and not make blanket irrational statements.

WinsomeX:


How do you justify a so called Christian minister doing such "business" when the Master said freely you have received, freely give.



Of course very word may not be a sermon. But can't it be?

Even if I admit that every word of a minister is not a sermon, a conference of that magnitude with advertised paid entry, does it sound like every word to you? Does it sound like everyday regular talk?

Well, let me remind you what I said: Munroe did not preach Jesus' gospel. He preached another gospel. Now that he is dead may he find mercy with his God. If however he would be judged on the "gospel" he preached, your guess is as good as mine. And if you cannot guess what I am thinking, I can understand why threads like this run 60+ pages.

Which of the people did you say are not around... the WoF brood of vipers that litter the Lag/Ibad expressway , the ones on TBN or the ones whose billboard are all over our streets and television? Oh, if you mean Hagin, ah ... I get you. We don't need him. We have enough of him around to answer queries on his behalf, if they can.