xcapizt:
Danh-dan! Tallesty1 appears on my thread (this early mo mo), chaii! my own don b for me be dat! *holds head*

Morning Tallesty1!

xcapizt:
1. Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make
peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things."

2. Isaiah 54:16 "I have created the waster to destroy."

3. Prov 16:4 "The Lord has made all things for himself, yes even
the wicked for the day of evil."

4. Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High
proceeds both evil and good."

5. Amos 3:6 "Shall there be evil in
a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

ChurchillStorm:


Abeg, no insult God based on the Christian's depiction of him jare. Religion is trash. God might not even be in the shape of a Hunan or even have a throne or live in heaven. That rubbish book, the bible, read and analyze the mumu book and you'll indeed know that it doesn't make sense at all.

johnydon22:


i think you were a christian now turning agnostic...lol

ChurchillStorm:


lol. Agnostic-deist to be exact

ChurchillStorm:


Abeg, no insult God based on the Christian's depiction of him jare. Religion is trash. God might not even be in the shape of a Hunan or even have a throne or live in heaven. That rubbish book, the bible, read and analyze the mumu book and you'll indeed know that it doesn't make sense at all.

johnydon22:

mehn all this religious belief dont make any sense at all

xcapizt:


Paine's Age of Reason tinz

Tallesty1:
MizMyColi can you answer this questions?@Emboldened.

I believe you can still remember why I'm asking.


Morning Xcapizt.

Courtesy:- RICHARD MURRAY

DOES GOD REALLY "HATE" ESAU'S GUTS?

"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, JACOB HAVE I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED." Rom. 9:10-13. I have had more than one person cite these verses to attempt to show that God loves certain men and hates others. In fact, these persons believe that God hates the guts of
certain unborn babies whom he has predestined and predetermined to grow up
evil.

This is sooooo wrong.

FIRST, the word “hate” is used in this passage NOT in the sense of outright emotional hostility or venomous resentment. Rather, the word is used to mean “loving less.” Charles Hodge, one of the the greatest American theologians of the nineteenth century, stated this view in his commentary on Romans concerning this passage, “It is evident that in this case the word hate means to love less, to regard and treat with less favor.”

Hate is certainly used this way in other key
passages. In Gen. 29:32- 33 “hatred” is
used of Jacob’s feelings for Leah, when in
truth the clearest meaning of the passage is that Jacob loves and favors Rachel more than Leah. The NIV translates this verse as Leah saying, “I am not loved.” Lk. 14:26 likewise uses the term “hate” in the sense of “loving less":
"If any man come to me, and HATE not his
father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Lk.14:26. Jesus here is obviously not teaching us to hate our parents, siblings and children, for that would contradict thousands of other scriptures. Jesus is saying we must “love them less” than we do the Lord.

There is not any other verse in the Bible where God is said to hate any individual man, so using this verse to substantiate the view that God hates individual men is dangerously unwarranted. God hates evil deeds, not evil men (Rev. 2:6).

God loves all men. Christ died for all men.
Christ offers salvation and forgiveness to all men. But, not all men choose to receive God’s free gift of salvation.

But God even loves those who reject Him.

Jesus loved the rich young ruler who rejected His call (Mk. 10:21-22). Jesus healed the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Him (Lk.22:51). Jesus asked forgiveness for all who killed Him (Lk. 23:34).

Can we really imagine Jesus telling Esau to his face, "I hate your guts!" Can we we really imagine Jesus telling anybody that? Jesus clearly taught us to love all our enemies and to walk in continual forgiveness toward them, and THUS be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:38-48). How on earth an we then think God hates the guts of ANY man?


SECOND, Paul symbolically uses Jacob and Esau in the Romans 9 passage above to represent the NATIONS of Israel and Edom, not the actual MEN Jacob and Esau. Paul was addressing the arrogant presumption of nationalistic Jews who believed Israel was the only chosen nation (people) of God, regardless of their corporate level of faith.

Paul’s purpose in this chapter is to show that election is now NOT by nation but by INDIVIDUAL faith alone. Paul in these verses is tracing back the historical development of Israel as God’s chosen nation (people). In Romans 9, Paul acknowledges the Israelite nation as the blessed recipient of “the adoption , and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came” (Rom. 9:4-5). He then traces back the call of God through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It is in this process that Paul quotes with
regard to Jacob and Esau: "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Rom. 9:11-13.

Paul quotes verse 2 from Micah 1:2-3. These verses in Micah are clearly referring to Jacob and Esau NOT as INDIVIDUALS but as the NATIONS of Israel and Edom.

That Paul was referring to the call of a nation (Israel) rather than the call of an individual in these verses is highlighted in the following passage from F. F. Bruce’s commentary on Romans 9:11-13.
"‘The elder will serve the younger.’ From the birth oracle to Rebekah (Gn. 25:23). The prophecy relates not to the individuals Esau and Jacob (for Esau never rendered service to Jacob) but to their descendants; it relates to the long periods during which the Edomites were in servitude to Israel or Judah (cf. 2 Sa. 8:14; 1 Ki. 22:47; 2 Ki.14:7;etc.).

Jacob, I loved, but Esau I hated.’ From Malachi 1:2-3, where again the context indicates it is the nations Israel and Edom, rather than their individual ancestors Jacob and Esau, that are in view. The way in which communities can be so freely spoken of in terms of their ancestors is an example of the common oscillation in biblical (and especially Old Testament) thought and speech between individual and corporate personality (cf.exposition of 5:12-21, p. 120, n.1)

The nation Israel sprang from Jacob and the nation of Edom sprang from Esau.
Interestingly, in Amos 8:11-12, Edom is used figuratively to represent the Gentiles. Romans 9 seems to echo the use of Esau as a symbol of the Gentile nations by starting off comparing and contrasting Jacob and Esau, and then concluding by comparing and contrasting Israel and the Gentiles.

This whole passage then is dealing with the calling of Israel versus the calling of all the Gentile nations, and how their respective favor\disfavor from God has now essentially flip-flopped with each other. (Rom. 9:25-26, 30-33). All the Gentile nations are NOW favored through faith in Christ, while national Israel has reaped DISFAVOR from God because of their corporate and continual unbelief. But even that will change when national Israel is grafted back into favor as they become jealous of the nation of faith which fills the earth. (Rom. 11:11-30). Then ALL will be one in Christ!

Paul’s point in these verses is that Israel’s
election as a chosen nation was already determined in Rachel’s womb. The Edomites were not God’s chosen nation, even though they too were Isaac’s seed. The key reason Edom could not be God’s chosen nation was that Jesus was not in their seed. God loved Esau less not because Esau was an evil baby in Rachel’s womb. God loved Jacob more
because he carried the seed of Jesus in him.

God did ordain that through the protected
seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. all the nations of the world would be blessed through the birth of one seed - - Jesus the Christ (Gal. 3:16).
Science is settled on the point that fraternal twins, which Jacob and Esau were, come from entirely separate sperm and eggs. Thus, there was a world of genetic difference between Jacob and Esau, a difference large enough to ultimately spawn two entirely separate nations. Only one of these nations had the exact genetic input to produce the destined seed of Jesus - - Israel.

God had promised Abraham his seed would bless all nations, but God also promised that the chosen seed would come from the people which would come to occupy the specific boundaries of the promised land.
(Gen. 13:14-18; 15; 17; Acts 17:26). Esau and Edom could never fit this bill, thus only through Jacob and Israel could the blessed and prophesied seed come - - the seed of Jesus.

Nonetheless, God still greatly loved Esau and the Edomites as individuals, even if they did not stand in corporate favor with God. That God loved Esau and the Edomites is established by Isaac’s blessing of Esau (Gen.27:39), the inclusion in scripture of Edomite genealogies (Gen. 36; 1 Chr. 1), God’s apparent siding with Edom against the Moabites (Amos 2:1-2), and, most importantly, the clear injunction of Dt. 23:7,
“Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother.”

These mercies toward Esau and Edom hardly support the view that God hates their guts. They were certainly less favored corporately than was Israel, but God continued to love them dearly, for that is His nature. God is love and God loves all men.

Israel was only chosen as a nation because it carried the seed of Jesus within it. Abraham received this seed by faith from the Lord when he believed God for the miraculous birth of Isaac. Thus, it was God’s election of Abraham’s seed made possible through Abraham’s faith in receiving the MESSIANIC PROMISE for the nation of Israel. That hallowed promise is simply this: the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Once Jesus arrived and imparted His righteousness to mankind, then no longer was a national election needed. Faith had come to all nations. The Holy Spirit had come. His bride, body and church had arrived. No longer was there Jew or Gentile, but one new man (Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:12-15).

Similarly, we are not the elect because God loves us more than other men. We are of the elect because we have received the seed of Christ into our being through the exercise of our faith. "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:1-2).


BOTTOM LINE: DON'T USE THIS PASSAGE TO CLAIM GOD HATES ANY INDIVIDUAL MAN.

AND DON'T USE THIS PASSAGE TO JUSTFY "YOUR" HATRED OF ANY INDIVIDUAL MAN EITHER. THAT IS HOW HOLY WARS GET STARTED. GOD IS LOVE. WE ARE CALLED TO LOVE HIM WITH OUR WHOLE BEING AND TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES. THIS IS HOW HOLY WARS ARE STOPPED.

Tenks

Courtesy:- Richard Murray

MizMyColi:

LoL Xcapizt

Check this out.
From a christian I deeply respect #RichardMurray.

When Isaiah is speaking here, he is translating the
divine impulses of inspiration from the Lord the best
he can. But remember, he had an undifferentiated
view of God, a fundamental blind-spot which affected
and limited everything he received from the Lord. He
wrongly believed, as did all Old Testament saints,
that Satan was the left hand of God, an obedient
extension of Yahweh's wrathful will.

This is why John 1:18 says no Old Testament saint
had truly beheld God at any time. Jesus came to
DIFFERENTIATE and DIVORCE our understanding
of God AND Satan, to completely separate and forever sever their natures, wills and purposes. As for Isaiah, he certainly knew God created light and was full of goodness, BUT he did not know that Satan was a cosmic rebel totally operating without Divine
permission or sanction.

Isaiah in this verse was misattributing, or perhaps
better described, "improperly blending" his images of
God and Satan into one bi-polar UNDIFFERENTIATED image. Jesus couldn't be clearer that Satan was a liar, murderer, and rebel being, and that he did not operate at the command of the Heavenly Father.

Sometimes, OT authors were improperly attributing Satan's works and words to Yahweh. Other times OT saints were rightly attributing Yahweh's mighty deliverances to Yahweh alone. But, still other times, such as in this Isaiah passage, the OT saint is hearing God and Satan TOGETHER at the same time. Much like a radio dial receiving two different remote station signals at the same time, what comes out is a mish-mash of conflicting notions and ideas.

Similarly, what comes out in this Isaiah verse is a
confusing and contradictory statement in need of New Testament re-translation.

xcapizt:
Well, MizMyColi, honestly, I haven't read the whole thing yet. Reason: I'm on the move. But if you have two kids, Emeka and Chuks, and you say "Emeka I love but Chuks, I "love less", why? "Just like that" . ...how does it sound to you?

xcapizt:
and who even mentioned the Jews in this conversation??
like for real? People come and see what this one is saying oooo!! That the first man is Jewish because his name was Adam! Hian! These Hebrew fairy tales don enter your head. If na ibo people wey write bible dey go give the characters of their story hausa names ni? Which language do you think the author of Genesis used to write the whole book, English? You sef...
If you take the Genesis story literally then I can't argue further, because my points will most likely fly over your head, and where is the fun in that?
This is not true!! God loved Jacob and hated Esau even before their birth, what do you call that? God handpicked people he wants to save and the ones that'll go to hell even before the foundations of the earth were laid, what do you call that? God picked (to favor) the Jewish race over any other, what do you call that? Impartiality?

Oduduwaboy:

The Beautiful one.
I know you still have a soft-spot for christianity and the Bible but dont dont you think there is no way you can defend the Christian god and his written word here? The bible clearly states " ALL scriptures are inspired...and profitable for exhortation and instructions in righteousness..."
One thing is clear and it is that God ( Jehovah/Yahweh or Allah ) is not a moderate!
*ALL in the quoted must mean both new & old testament please.

I have a soft spot for everyone and every experience that I've had to encounter to become the person I am today.

I post these things, not because, I'm an ardent bible reader, but because they make sense to me and somehow I believe that it'll inspire someone out there.

I have my convictions.

Yet, if I see an article that'll benefit a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Muslim or Budhist.......as long as it gives me a sense of peace....I'll share it.

The dismal part is that this isn't even about the defending the Christian God, because as is evidenced on this thread, the average/typical Christian doesn't believe what I first posted about their God.

They are strongly convinced that their God is Good and Evil at the same time. Because He is the almighty.

Well, what can I say.....if it give them a sense of peace and satisfaction to think that way, then by all means, let them keep on.

---

Thinking Out Loud Now
I made an interesting observation 2 days ago.

If you're earnestly looking to believe in a God, there is more than enough evidence to point in that direction.

If you're earnestly looking to disbelieve in a God, there's a million and one evidence to point in that direction.

I hate religious talks, I have been avoiding this section.
I hate the the toll it takes on me.
I hate the divide it causes.

It is evident that no matter what you say or do, Mr A would never subscribe to Mr B's beliefs......so why stress it, why mar the beauty of our unity, despite our diversities.

We take arguments too far in this section, too far.

I maintain that the answers we seek about God or Un-God lies within, not without (Bible Inclusive).

I have observed that in this section, there is so much divide and disdain.
Imagine a christian who is supposed to be in the image and likeness of Christ calling a fellow human a Satanist.

I am not saying that we shouldn't raise topics or ask questions......but then, I have observed, from all sections of the divide (mine inclusive), that what we do, or should I say our motive, is to show to others how our realities, our worldviews and our beliefs/unbeliefs certainly trumps theirs.


More oft than not, We make comments or post topics, not because we truly love people and have their best interests at heart or because we really, really want to learn. Instead we do so, with a deep underlying motive, which most times, is not so evident to us.........we want to be correct, we want to show them how high we've come, we want them to believe in what we believe - whether or not it gives them a sense of peace.


It makes us become the very thing we try to emancipate ourselves from, religious/unreligious bigots.....and it's attendant unpleasantness.

MizMyColi:





I have a soft spot for everyone and every experience that I've had to encounter to become the person I am today.

I post these things, not because, I'm an ardent bible reader, but because they make sense to me and somehow I believe that it'll inspire someone out there.

I have my convictions.

Yet, if I see an article that'll benefit a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Muslim or Budhist.......as long as it gives me a sense of peace....I'll share it.

The dismal part is that this isn't even about the defending the Christian God, because as is evidenced on this thread, the average/typical Christian doesn't believe what I first posted about their God.

They are strongly convinced that their God is Good and Evil at the same time. Because He is the almighty.

Well, what can I say.....if it give them a sense of peace and satisfaction to think that way, then by all means, let them keep on.

---

Thinking Out Loud Now
I made an interesting observation 2 days ago.

If you're earnestly looking to believe in a God, there is more than enough evidence to point in that direction.

If you're earnestly looking to disbelieve in a God, there's a million and one evidence to point in that direction.

I hate religious talks, I have been avoiding this section.
I hate the the toll it takes on me.
I hate the divide it causes.

It is evident that no matter what you say or do, Mr A would never subscribe to Mr B's beliefs......so why stress it, why mar the beauty of our unity, despite our diversities.

We take arguments too far in this section, too far.

I maintain that the answers we seek about God or Un-God lies within, not without (Bible Inclusive).

I have observed that in this section, there is so much divide and disdain.
Imagine a christian who is supposed to be in the image and likeness of Christ calling a fellow human a Satanist.

I am not saying that we shouldn't raise topics or ask questions......but then, I have observed, from all sections of the divide (mine inclusive), that what we do, or should I say our motive, is to show to others how our realities, our worldviews and our beliefs/unbeliefs certainly trumps theirs.


More oft than not, We make comments or post topics, not because we truly love people and have their best interests at heart or because we really, really want to learn. Instead we do so, with a deep underlying motive, which most times, is not so evident to us.........we want to be correct, we want to show them how high we've come, we want them to believe in what we believe - whether or not it gives them a sense of peace.


It makes us become the very thing we try to emancipate ourselves from, religious/unreligious bigots.....and it's attendant unpleasantness.

xcapizt:

Serious food for thought.

Oduduwaboy:

Yeah. That girl/babe/woman (MizMyColi) is just too good a human being for this perverted country ! lol.
There is a way she lovingly disarms people like me. How i wish this charm could apply to Boko Haram, Yahweh & his hell-preaching people including other fundamentalists of all hues and kinds?

malvisguy212:
Mizmycoli.bible make it clear that God is good all the time,No christian has ever made this claim that God is good and evil at the same time.If you didn't get it, here is a brief synopsis. The atheist argument is that
since God created everything, He is responsible for the creation of evil.
However, "evil" is a word that we use to describe certain things that
happen to us (most of which are caused by other people). In reality, it
is not a physically created thing at all and, therefore, does not fall
within the realm of something created by God. So, the argument is fundamentally flawed. evil is allowed by God so
that free will beings can choose between good (i.e., God) or evil
(absence of God). Without evil, it is not possible to choose between
good and evil, and the universe would have no ultimate purpose.if there is a freewill, there has to be good and if there is good then evil must exist for us to chose.

We are made in the image of God,we are to love one and other,it is either you are a satanist or you are for christ,if an unbeliever acts like devil, we will called him a satanist, even jesus called the teachers of the law condamme generation,genaration of vipers because they acts that way.

okeke00:
so they were no more written with the inspiration of God, the truth must come out one day

xcapizt:

Where did evil originate from?

malvisguy212:
God gives us the knowledge of evil so that man can have the option to choses between good and bad,God is capable of doing evil,but he wont,the bible make it clear that God is good.

malvisguy212:
you have a son,you loved him so much, will you alow evil to come upon him?you are capable of hurting him,but because you loved him,you will not do it,except satan tempt you,that how God is, the difference is that God cannot be tempted, he is incapable of hurting dos he loved,

xcapizt:

Is hell a place for people he hates?

malvisguy212:
God love everybody,but the people choses hell over heaven, read the parable of the banquet, he invite them to the weeding but they REFUSED,he told his sarvent to go all round to the city invite as many as you can,the begger,blind,poor and everyone, STILL his house was not full, he send them again and said to them, bring the people in until my HOUSE IS FULL,still people like you refused to come, what els do you want from God?

xcapizt:

His house gets full?

malvisguy212:
God gives us the knowledge of evil so that man can have the option to choses between good and bad,God is capable of doing evil,but he wont,the bible make it clear that God is good.

malvisguy212:
God love everybody,but the people choses hell over heaven