| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by davien(m): 10:10am On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
The only reason Atheist radical groups are not as prominent as ISIS, Al Qaeda or Boko Haram is that Atheists are in the minority so the radicals would be very few compared to the general population and would be easily extinguished. And Atheists are cowardly.
That's why the dictators do it for Atheism when they have all the powers of the State at their disposal.
Vox Day notes concerning atheism and mass murder:
“ Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao …
The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
There Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!" lol...is this all? "atheists are cowardly" and linking. atheism to communism is all you can do?. point is nobody kills for "atheism"... just like nobody kills in the name of a lack of belief in aliens,fairies. You can quote anti-atheists all day long,the fact remains that nobody kills without a belief...and atheism is merely an unbelief. Upon investigation of that copy-paste article you keep posting I traced it back to conservapedia http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_MurderA site notorious for giving bias views and contrary opinions about events...their most ridiculous assertions http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ridiculous_quotes_from_ConservapediaConservapedia is also a christian apologist version of wikipedia...so I expect no less than link atheism to mass murder,conservapedia also links homosexuality to psychiatric problems and claimed the earth ejaculated on the moon to create its craters during noah's flood,lol.  Its best you go deal with the s3x scandals,perhaps the pope might ordain them and you'll automatically go with it.  |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 11:07am On Nov 28, 2014 |
davien:
All you did was quote mine the catholic church being charitable and all the likes....then quote mined a quote linking atheism/atheists to communism....and tag it off with "evidence is overwhelming" when the majority of your posts were cherry-picked.
I could also go and quote mine the various s3x scandals of the church...and link catholicism with nazi russia.
You started out by suggesting Religion served to suppress what is true and good...and that Atheists dont engage in "killing crusades"...I then showed you how the Catholic Church practically built Science, indeed Western Civilization...and how Atheists are the worst mass murderers in history...with overwhelming, universally known evidence. If you have evidence that any of the points in my quotes in untrue, provide it. davien:
And it was giodarno bruno who was burnt at the state for advancing a copernican system(i left that out,thinking it was copernicus)
"Beginning in 1593, Bruno was tried for [b]heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges including denial of several core Catholic doctrines (including the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and Transubstantiation). Bruno's pantheism was also a matter of grave concern.[4] The Inquisition found him guilty, and in 1600 he was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori. After his death he gained considerable fame, particularly among 19th- and early 20th-century commentators who regarded him as a martyr for science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
Now,how many "donations" the church makes today....makes it right to burn someone alive....?
This was ofcourse the norm for heresy....
1. Stop lying. Bruno wasn't condemned for advancing Copernican System. He was tried for Heresy and the likes. Even your wiki quote proves you false. 2. The Inquisition was an attempt by the Catholic Church to stop unjust executions. Heresy was a capital offense against the state. Rulers of the state, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw heretics as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig. It was not easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. The lord needed some basic theological training, very few did. The sad result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent judge of the crime. The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, an attempt to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community. Most people tried for heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or had their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule. As Wikipedia states, Bruno was found guilty of many charges of heresy and the proper sentence for the time was meted out. The Church was there to make sure he received a fair trial. https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110209102919AAlkPTLdavien:
since you,re so good at referencing wiki pages why not wiki the salem witch trials and see the evils done in the name of christianity?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
[b] "And now Nineteen persons having been hang'd, and one prest to death, and Eight more condemned, in all Twenty and Eight, of which above a third part were Members of some of the Churches of N. England, and more than half of them of a good Conversation in general, and not one clear'd; about Fifty having confest themselves to be Witches, of which not one Executed; above an Hundred and Fifty in Prison, and Two Hundred more accused; the Special Commision of Oyer and Terminer comes to a period."
— Robert Calef
"When I put an end to the Court there ware at least fifty persons in prision in great misery by reason of the extream cold and their poverty, most of them having only spectre evidence against them and their mittimusses being defective, I caused some of them to be lettout upon bayle and put the Judges upon consideration of a way to reliefe others and to prevent them from perishing in prision, upon which some of them were convinced and acknowledged that their former proceedings were too violent and not grounded upon a right foundation ... The stop put to the first method of proceedings hath dissipated the blak cloud that threatened this Province with destruccion."
— Governor William Phips, February 21st, 1693
I,m sure these are the "just" acts you were talking about earlier.
These people were killed by CIVIL AUTHORITIES who had no affiliation to my religion, which is Catholicism. But compare that small number to how many the ATHEIST CIVIL AUTHORITIES have killed to advance your Atheist religion. Tens of millions! And what good has your religion brought the world? Bondage, destruction and death! davien:
And your rebuttal of raymond agiles as dubious is not regarding the events of the killings but of his accounts of various hear-say to raise up certain people.
"Like many of the Crusaders and the Crusade's themselves, Raymond of Aguilers motives during the Crusade have been questioned. This is particularly true in regards as to why he wrote the Historia Francorum qui ceperunt Iherusalem. Raymond of Aguilers claimed he wrote to inform the Bishop of Viviers and the general populace of the true actions in regards to crusade. This was in direct response to rumors spread by several deserters and traitors according to Aguilers. Other historians, however, contend that Raymond of Aguilers actually wrote the Historia Francorum qui Ceperunt Iherusalem to raise up his own liege Raymond IV of Toulouse. Aguilers, being the one responsible for his liege's spiritual being, could possible gain further prestige by portraying Raymond IV of Toulouse as a truly holy individual. This would further explain why during the capture of Antioch Aguilers focused heavily on the finding of the Holy Lance by Peter Bartholomew instead of focusing on the accounts of two saintly figures aiding in the battles as described in the Gesta Francorum." If his motives during the crusades are questionable, how can he be trusted to write honestly on the crusades. Also, the conduct of the troops don't make the idea of the crusades bad, just like the conduct of Allied troops dont make the fight against Hitler bad. Think well, for once. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 11:55am On Nov 28, 2014 |
davien:
lol...is this all? "atheists are cowardly" and linking. atheism to communism is all you can do?. It's not me, it's the Fathers of Communism that linked it directly to Atheism.  In a recent interview D'Souza declared: “ Richard Dawkins argues that at least the atheist regimes didn't kill people in the name of atheism. Isn't it time for this biologist to get out of the lab and read a little history? Marxism and Communism were atheist ideologies. Stalin and Mao weren't dictators who happened to be atheist; atheism was part of their official doctrine. It was no accident, as the Marxists liked to say, that they shut down the churches and persecuted the clergy...[15] ” Dinesh D'Souza stated in another interview: “ As one writer put it, “Leaders such as Stalin and Mao persecuted religious groups, not in a bid to expand atheism, but as a way of focusing people’s hatred on those groups to consolidate their own power.” Of course I agree that murderous regimes, whether Christian or atheist, are generally seeking to strengthen their position. But if Christian regimes are held responsible for their crimes committed in the name of Christianity, then atheist regimes should be held accountable for their crimes committed in the name of atheism. And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a “new man” and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.[16] ”
Karl Marx said "[Religion] is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."[17] Vladimir Lenin Vladimir Lenin similarly wrote regarding atheism and communism: " A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."[18] Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.[19] The atheism in communist regimes has been and continues to be militant atheism that has committed various acts of repression including the razing of thousands of religious buildings and the killing, imprisoning, and the oppression of religious leaders and believers.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26] In the atheistic and communist Soviet Union, 44 anti religious museums were opened and the largest was the 'The Museum of the History of Religion and Atheism' in Leningrad’s Kazan cathedral.--Conservapedia. davien:
point is nobody kills for "atheism"... just like nobody kills in the name of a lack of belief in aliens,fairies. Ah! But Atheists kill tens of millions for believing God. davien:
You can quote anti-atheists all day long,the fact remains that nobody kills without a belief...and atheism is merely an unbelief.
Upon investigation of that copy-paste article you keep posting I traced it back to conservapedia
http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder
A site notorious for giving bias views and contrary opinions about events...their most ridiculous assertions
http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ridiculous_quotes_from_Conservapedia
Conservapedia is also a christian apologist version of wikipedia...so I expect no less than link atheism to mass murder,conservapedia also links homosexuality to psychiatric problems and claimed the earth ejaculated on the moon to create its craters during noah's flood,lol.
Its best you go deal with the s3x scandals,perhaps the pope might ordain them and you'll automatically go with it. Ad hominem. Prove them wrong! Are they lying against Karl Marx and Lenin who directly linked Communism to Atheism? |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by davien(m): 12:46pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
It's not me, it's the Fathers of Communism that linked it directly to Atheism.
In a recent interview D'Souza declared:
“ Richard Dawkins argues that at least the atheist regimes didn't kill people in the name of atheism. Isn't it time for this biologist to get out of the lab and read a little history? Marxism and Communism were atheist ideologies. Stalin and Mao weren't dictators who happened to be atheist; atheism was part of their official doctrine.
It was no accident, as the Marxists liked to say, that they shut down the churches and persecuted the clergy...[15]
”
Dinesh D'Souza stated in another interview:
“ As one writer put it, “Leaders such as Stalin and Mao persecuted religious groups, not in a bid to expand atheism, but as a way of focusing people’s hatred on those groups to consolidate their own power.” Of course I agree that murderous regimes, whether Christian or atheist, are generally seeking to strengthen their position. But if Christian regimes are held responsible for their crimes committed in the name of Christianity, then atheist regimes should be held accountable for their crimes committed in the name of atheism. And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a “new man” and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.[16] ”
Karl Marx said "[Religion] is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."[17]
Vladimir Lenin
Vladimir Lenin similarly wrote regarding atheism and communism: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."[18]
Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.[19]
The atheism in communist regimes has been and continues to be militant atheism that has committed various acts of repression including the razing of thousands of religious buildings and the killing, imprisoning, and the oppression of religious leaders and believers.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26] In the atheistic and communist Soviet Union, 44 anti religious museums were opened and the largest was the 'The Museum of the History of Religion and Atheism' in Leningrad’s Kazan cathedral.--Conservapedia.
Ah! But Atheists kill tens of millions for believing God. copy-pasted conservative propaganda.
Ad hominem.
Sure,mask explaining yourself by claiming I commited an ad hominem.
Prove them wrong!
After copying and pasting anti-atheist claims from a christian conservative site,you then tell me to prove you wrong when they aren't right to begin with?
Are they lying against Karl Marx and Lenin who directly linked Communism to Atheism?
As Lenin himself stated the combating of religion was to advance the class struggle, the very basis of Marxism – not because or in the name of atheism. It was because of their belief in the class struggle, or Dialectical materialism. Even Lenin said the following [b] “The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching… eliminating the social roots of religion. “Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like- minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cozy government.” (Lenin – Socialism and Religion, 1905) [/b] Some religious denominations were even allowed, like Islam, which ‘experienced official co-option from agencies such as spiritual administration of the muslims.’ At one point, ‘the russian orthodox church was enlisted to support stalin’s government in the country’s defense – support which it unreservedlgranted by naming stalin as divinely appointed, just as it had done under the Russian tsars.’ Now is that atheism? Italo.... If it were truly atheism that drove their actions, why is it that you’ve been unable to find any quotes to back up your claim? All the quotes you’ve given italo have been taken out of context as I’ve shown in these few examples. Further more, if it was this “atheism” that drove their actions then why the huge discrepancies between the communists’ beliefs regarding the status of religion in a socialist society? Even Lenin expressed ideas of religious tolerance. Why was this? As I’ve stated before, it was because of their ideology and their attempts to get the masses to accept it. You can quote conservapedia all day long,its not going to give you any credibility,just christian conservative propaganda.. After going to conservapedia to lift more conservative propaganda you then ask me to prove you wrong you weren't even right in the first place....  |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by davien(m): 1:40pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
You started out by suggesting Religion served to suppress what is true and good...and that Atheists dont engage in "killing crusades"...I then showed you how the Catholic Church practically built Science, indeed Western Civilization... and how Atheists are the worst mass murderers in history...with overwhelming, universally known evidence. You merely quoted the involvement of the catholic church to western civilization history,and the bolded you got it from a christian conservative site...so much for "universally known evidence" If you have evidence that any of the points in my quotes in untrue, provide it.
1. Stop lying. Bruno wasn't condemned for advancing Copernican System. He was tried for Heresy and the likes. Even your wiki quote proves you false. really? the blatant admission of crimes due to questioning church dogma is false? "Beginning in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman
Inquisition on charges including denial of several core Catholic
doctrines (including the Trinity , the divinity of Christ, the virginity of
Mary,and Transubstantiation). Bruno's pantheism was also a matter
of grave concern.The Inquisition found him guilty, and in 1600 he
was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori . " Italo in what reality is burning someone alive for denying dogma a just deed?
2. The Inquisition was an attempt by the Catholic Church to stop unjust executions. Heresy was a capital offense against the state. Rulers of the state, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw heretics as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath.
No,it was an attempt to regain back control of the "holy land" using brute force.
When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig. It was not easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. The lord needed some basic theological training, very few did. The sad result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent judge of the crime.
Stealing=heresy? that is a pathetic apologetic.... @bolded,So it wasn't the church that accused bruno of heresy but "secular authorities"? you are contradicting your previous statement.
The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, an attempt to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges.
fair trials? So did anyone ever record a fair trial?
From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death.
You keep masking the churchs actions by claiming it was "secular authorities". The inquisition was purely non-secular " The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal [/b]for discovery
and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity
of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to
the accused."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html
Again,
"The Inquisition is a group of institutions within the judicial
system of the [b] Roman Catholic Church whose aim is to combat heresy . " http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.
The bolded is a lie,the church itself started the inquisition to weed out heretics.
Most people tried for heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or had their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed.
Another tongue in cheek lie. " Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe , Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to
dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled
with the church were still punished and many had their
property confiscated, as well as were banished from public
life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake
without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled
first." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html
If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done.
Nothing to be done except torture you mean. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. The church was in complete control...all heretics were tried by the roman church. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. You can't revision history here...many jews were tried by the roman church and burned. " In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian
heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews.
However, disputes about Maimonides ’ books (which
addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures)
provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the
Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of
volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake
took place in France."
The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.
Yet another lie...how are trials to weed out heretics and burn them saving lives? I've already exposed your dubious lies.
As Wikipedia states, Bruno was found guilty of many charges of heresy and the proper sentence for the time was meted out. The Church was there to make sure he received a fair trial.
Which was to burn him?
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110209102919AAlkPTL
These people were killed by CIVIL AUTHORITIES who had no affiliation to my religion, which is Catholicism.
But compare that small number to how many the ATHEIST CIVIL AUTHORITIES have killed to advance your Atheist religion. Tens of millions!
And what good has your religion brought the world? Bondage, destruction and death!
If his motives during the crusades are questionable, how can he be trusted to write honestly on the crusades.
Also, the conduct of the troops don't make the idea of the crusades bad, just like the conduct of Allied troops dont make the fight against Hitler bad. Think well, for once.
cool... you went to yahoo and found a catholic that dismissed the church's bloody history. And to end it you arrived at your initial assertion of there being an "atheist religion" and "atheist civil authorities" that killed tens of millions. So in total you gave a series of lies and then misrepresented atheism to keep your belief n a magic man  2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 2:59pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
davien:
copy-pasted conservative propaganda.
Sure,mask explaining yourself by claiming I commited an ad hominem.
After copying and pasting anti-atheist claims from a christian conservative site,you then tell me to prove you wrong when they aren't right to begin with?
As Lenin himself stated the combating of religion was to
advance the class struggle, the very basis of Marxism – not because or in the name of atheism.
It was because of their belief in the class struggle, or Dialectical materialism.
Even Lenin said the following [b]
“The combating of
religion cannot be
confined to abstract
ideological preaching…
eliminating the social
roots of religion.
“Religion must be
declared a private affair.
In these words socialists
usually express their
attitude towards religion.
But the meaning of these
words should be
accurately defined to
prevent any
misunderstanding. We
demand that religion be
held a private affair so
far as the state is
concerned.
But by no means can we
consider religion a
private affair so far as
our Party is concerned.
Religion must be of no
concern to the state, and
religious societies must
have no connection with
governmental authority.
Everyone must be
absolutely free to profess
any religion he pleases,
or no religion whatever,
i.e., to be an atheist,
which every socialist is,
as a rule. Discrimination
among citizens on
account of their religious
convictions is wholly
intolerable. Even the bare
mention of a citizen’s
religion in official
documents should
unquestionably be
eliminated. No subsidies
should be granted to the
established church nor
state allowances made to
ecclesiastical and
religious societies. These
should become absolutely
free associations of like-
minded citizens,
associations independent
of the state. Only the
complete fulfillment of
these demands can put an
end to the shameful and
accursed past when the
church lived in feudal
dependence on the state,
and Russian citizens lived
in feudal dependence on
the established church,
when medieval,
inquisitorial laws (to this
day remaining in our
criminal codes and on
our statute-books) were
in existence and were
applied, persecuting men
for their belief or
disbelief, violating men’s
consciences, and linking
cozy government.” (Lenin
– Socialism and Religion,
1905)
[/b]
Some religious denominations were even allowed, like Islam, which ‘experienced official co-option from agencies such as spiritual
administration of the muslims.’
At one point, ‘the russian orthodox church was enlisted to support stalin’s government in the country’s defense – support which it unreservedlgranted by naming stalin as divinely appointed, just as it had done under the Russian tsars.’ Now is that atheism?
Italo.... If it were truly atheism that drove their actions, why is it that you’ve been unable to find any quotes to back up your claim?
All the quotes you’ve given italo have been taken out of context as I’ve shown in these few examples. Further more, if it was this “atheism” that drove their actions then why the huge discrepancies between the communists’ beliefs regarding the status of religion in a socialist society? Even Lenin expressed ideas of religious tolerance.
Why was this? As I’ve stated before, it was because of their ideology and their attempts to get the masses to accept it.
You can quote conservapedia all day long,its not going to give you any credibility,just christian conservative propaganda..
After going to conservapedia to lift more conservative propaganda you then ask me to prove you wrong you weren't even right in the first place.... You mean Karl Marx did not say: “Religion is the opium of the people” and “Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction.” And Vladimir Lenin didn't say: “A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could.” Conservapedia manufactured those quotes by Atheist Fathers of Communism, linking Atheism directly with communism? The Atheists didn't kill tens of millions for living their faith? Perhaps you also deny that there was any persecution of religion in these countries? Perhaps these communist leaders weren't even Atheists? They're just being lied against by Conservapedia, right? That's exactly what it takes to be Atheist. To deny the Truth. Wikipedia is also anti-Atheist too abi? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_UnionWhen the Soviet Union was established by the Bolsheviks in 1922, it was the constitutional organization which took over from the Russian Empire. At the time of the 1917 Revolution, the Russian Orthodox Church was deeply integrated into the autocratic state enjoying official status. This was a significant factor that contributed to the Bolshevik attitude to religion and the steps they took to control it.[1] Thus the USSR became the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion[2] and its replacement with universal atheism.[3][4] The communist regime confiscated religious property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in schools.[5] The confiscation of religious assets was often based on accusations of illegal accumulation of wealth. The vast majority of people in the Russian empire were, at the time of the revolution, religious believers, whereas the communists aimed to break the power of all religious institutions and eventually replace religious belief with atheism. "Science" was counterposed to "religious superstition" in the media and in academic writing. The main religions of pre-revolutionary Russia persisted throughout the entire Soviet period, but they were only tolerated within certain limits. Generally, this meant that believers were free to worship in private and in their respective religious buildings (churches, mosques, etc.), but public displays of religion outside of such designated areas were prohibited. In addition, religious institutions were not allowed to express their views in any type of mass media, and many religious buildings were demolished or used for other purposes.[citation needed] State atheism in the Soviet Union was known as gosateizm,[2] and was based on the ideology of Marxism–Leninism. As the founder of the Soviet state, V. I. Lenin, put it: Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[6] Marxist–Leninist atheism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and elimination of religion. Within about a year of the revolution, the state expropriated all church property, including the churches themselves, and in the period from 1922 to 1926, 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and more than 1,200 priests were killed. Many more were persecuted http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheismState promotion of atheism as a public norm first came to prominence in Revolutionary France (1789-1799).[1] Revolutionary Mexico followed similar policies from 1917, as did Marxist-Leninist states. The RSFSR (1917-1991) and the Soviet Union (1922-1991) had a long history of state atheism, whereby those seeking social success generally had to profess atheism and to stay away from houses of worship; this trend became especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929 to 1939. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_UnionThroughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs.[1] The state was committed to the destruction of religion,[2][3] and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept.[4][5] The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million Keep denying what is known all over the world. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by davien(m): 4:46pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
You mean Karl Marx did not say: “Religion is the opium of the people” and “Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction.”
And Vladimir Lenin didn't say: “A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could.”
Conservapedia manufactured those quotes by Atheist Fathers of Communism, linking Atheism directly with communism?
The Atheists didn't kill tens of millions for living their faith?
Perhaps you also deny that there was any persecution of religion in these countries?
Perhaps these communist leaders weren't even Atheists?
They're just being lied against by Conservapedia, right?
That's exactly what it takes to be Atheist. To deny the Truth.
Wikipedia is also anti-Atheist too abi?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_UnionWhen the Soviet Union was established by the Bolsheviks in 1922, it was the constitutional organization which took over from the Russian Empire. At the time of the 1917 Revolution, the Russian Orthodox Church was deeply integrated into the autocratic state enjoying official status. This was a significant factor that contributed to the Bolshevik attitude to religion and the steps they took to control it.[1] Thus the USSR became the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion[2] and its replacement with universal atheism.[3][4] The communist regime confiscated religious property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in schools.[5] The confiscation of religious assets was often based on accusations of illegal accumulation of wealth.
The vast majority of people in the Russian empire were, at the time of the revolution, religious believers, whereas the communists aimed to break the power of all religious institutions and eventually replace religious belief with atheism. "Science" was counterposed to "religious superstition" in the media and in academic writing. The main religions of pre-revolutionary Russia persisted throughout the entire Soviet period, but they were only tolerated within certain limits. Generally, this meant that believers were free to worship in private and in their respective religious buildings (churches, mosques, etc.), but public displays of religion outside of such designated areas were prohibited. In addition, religious institutions were not allowed to express their views in any type of mass media, and many religious buildings were demolished or used for other purposes.[citation needed]
State atheism in the Soviet Union was known as gosateizm,[2] and was based on the ideology of Marxism–Leninism. As the founder of the Soviet state, V. I. Lenin, put it:
Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[6]
Marxist–Leninist atheism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and elimination of religion. Within about a year of the revolution, the state expropriated all church property, including the churches themselves, and in the period from 1922 to 1926, 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and more than 1,200 priests were killed. Many more were persecuted
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
State promotion of atheism as a public norm first came to prominence in Revolutionary France (1789-1799).[1] Revolutionary Mexico followed similar policies from 1917, as did Marxist-Leninist states. The RSFSR (1917-1991) and the Soviet Union (1922-1991) had a long history of state atheism, whereby those seeking social success generally had to profess atheism and to stay away from houses of worship; this trend became especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929 to 1939. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs.[1]
The state was committed to the destruction of religion,[2][3] and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept.[4][5] The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million
Keep denying what is known all over the world. The bulk of your posts still fail to get my reply. 1. communism is not atheism...it can be atheistic and theistic,you can go and learn about christian communism. 2.Being that you agree that it was about dialectical materialism through the imposement of state atheism then you have no point to point to atheism being the cause of deaths... Since he had the view of dialetical materialism he needed to find a way to enforce that and control the people,he already knew religion had people under control( hence he noted religion as the "opium of the masses" )...so he enacted the employment of a new regime (communism). 3.And with that killed millions.... The point here is that an atheistic policy was needed to enact communism.. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by Kay17: 7:26pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
Stop the revisionism of history.
Religion, at least Catholicism never stopped those men from pursuing truth. In fact, it helped them do so.
Catholicism invented, sponsored and nourished science...and many other human disciplines. In short, Catholicism built the western civilization you now hold so dear and benefit from.
The crusades were a good thing...to defend people being raped, plundered and killed by Muslims, just like ISIS is doing now.
Atheists have held 'killing crusades' countless times in history. E.g Soviet Union Atheist govt killed millions in an attempt to stamp out religion. Albanian Atheist govt did same. China and North Korea continue to do same now.
The Catholic church punished and imprisoned Galileo, and worse off, apologized for the act. Neither were the Crusades as dignifying as you claim they were. The Muslims were in control of the area for a good while, prior to the Crusades. And yes, the atheist Soviet Union committed atrocities along with Communist China and Albania. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by Kay17: 7:32pm On Nov 28, 2014 |
italo:
You started out by suggesting Religion served to suppress what is true and good...and that Atheists dont engage in "killing crusades"...I then showed you how the Catholic Church practically built Science, indeed Western Civilization...and how Atheists are the worst mass murderers in history...with overwhelming, universally known evidence. If you have evidence that any of the points in my quotes in untrue, provide it.
1. Stop lying. Bruno wasn't condemned for advancing Copernican System. He was tried for Heresy and the likes. Even your wiki quote proves you false.
2. [b]The Inquisition was an attempt by the Catholic Church to stop unjust executions. Heresy was a capital offense against the state. Rulers of the state, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw heretics as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath.
When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig. It was not easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. The lord needed some basic theological training, very few did. The sad result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent judge of the crime.
The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, an attempt to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges.
From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.
Most people tried for heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or had their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed.
If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.
As Wikipedia states, Bruno was found guilty of many charges of heresy and the proper sentence for the time was meted out. The Church was there to make sure he received a fair trial.[/b]
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110209102919AAlkPTL
These people were killed by CIVIL AUTHORITIES who had no affiliation to my religion, which is Catholicism.
But compare that small number to how many the ATHEIST CIVIL AUTHORITIES have killed to advance your Atheist religion. Tens of millions!
And what good has your religion brought the world? Bondage, destruction and death!
If his motives during the crusades are questionable, how can he be trusted to write honestly on the crusades.
Also, the conduct of the troops don't make the idea of the crusades bad, just like the conduct of Allied troops dont make the fight against Hitler bad. Think well, for once. Italo, So you admit the Church did execute individuals for heresy, thereby making itself available as a means by the secular authorities, right? |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 8:09am On Nov 29, 2014 |
davien:
You merely quoted the involvement of the catholic church to western civilization history,and the bolded you got it from a christian conservative site...so much for "universally known evidence" ...Conservapedia and Wikipedia. You cannot refute a dot of what was said. davien:
really? the blatant admission of crimes due to questioning church dogma is false?
"Beginning in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman
Inquisition on charges including denial of several core Catholic
doctrines (including the Trinity , the divinity of Christ, the virginity of
Mary,and Transubstantiation). Bruno's pantheism was also a matter
of grave concern.The Inquisition found him guilty, and in 1600 he
was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori . "
Italo in what reality is burning someone alive for denying dogma a just deed?
It was just in the eyes of the CIVIL AUTHORITIES that burned him...as it is just in the eyes of the Nigerian Govt to execute an armed robber. davien:
No,it was an attempt to regain back control of the "holy land" using brute force. Do you know the difference between inquisition and crusade? You just latch on to anything written by an Atheist on the Internet and regurgitate it without digesting it? Mr "Copernicus was burned." davien:
Stealing=heresy? that is a pathetic apologetic....
@bolded,So it wasn't the church that accused bruno of heresy but "secular authorities"? you are contradicting your previous statement. These are the kind of irrelevant things you have to cling to to save face. Where did I say stealing is heresy... The Church Inquisition condemned him for heresy. And they were correct. The CIVIL AUTHORITIES burned him. That was the punishment for such crime in the land. davien:
fair trials?
So did anyone ever record a fair trial? No need to go far. Bruno got a fair trial. davien:
You keep masking the churchs actions by claiming it was "secular authorities".
The inquisition was purely non-secular
" The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal [/b]for discovery
and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity
of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to
the accused."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html
Again,
"The Inquisition is a group of institutions within the judicial
system of the [b] Roman Catholic Church whose aim is to combat
heresy . "
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition But the same wikipedia link you provided have these to say: "Generally, the Inquisition was concerned only with the heretical behaviour of Catholic adherents or converts, and did not concern itself with those outside that religion, such as Jews or Muslims.[7][need quotation to verify] When a suspect was convicted of unrepentant heresy, the inquisitorial tribunal was required by law to hand the person over to the secular authorities for final sentencing, at which point the penalty would be determined by a magistrate, usually burning at the stake although the penalty varied based on local law." " King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile established the Spanish Inquisition in 1478." "The Portuguese Inquisition formally started in Portugal in 1536 at the request of the King of Portugal, João III. Manuel I had asked Pope Leo X for the installation of the Inquisition in 1515, but only after his death (1521) did Pope Paul III acquiesce." "In the Americas, King Philip II set up three tribunals (each formally titled Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición) in 1569, one in Mexico, Cartagena de Indias (in modern day Colombia) and Peru." Which one shall we take from you now? Was it purely secular or did it involve secular authorities, historical illiterate? davien:
The bolded is a lie,the church itself started the inquisition to weed out heretics. First you said it was to retake Holy land by force, now it is to weed out heretics. You keep contradicting yourself only because you're holding on to lies. Even this anti-Christian website has evidence that the aim was to save souls. Here's a quote from a Papal bull to the Spanish: "in Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca and Catalonia the Inquisition has for some time been moved not by zeal for the faith and the salvation of souls, but by lust for wealth, and that many true and faithful Christians, on the testimony of enemies, rivals, slaves and other lower and even less proper persons, have without any legitimate proof been thrust into secular prisons, tortured and condemned as relapsed heretics, deprived of their goods and property and handed over to the secular arm to be executed, to the peril of souls, setting a pernicious example, and causing disgust to many." davien:
Another tongue in cheek lie.
" Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of
grace would be published calling upon those who are
conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the
tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of
heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe , Act of Faith.
Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver
the punishments. Punishments included confinement to
dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled
with the church were still punished and many had their
property confiscated, as well as were banished from public
life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake
without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled
first."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html
Most of them were acquitted. I will give you two links to read from seasoned historians on this issue: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/211193/real-inquisition/thomas-f-maddenhttp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_InquisitionAlso, your wikipedia link says only about 2% of accused were executed. davien:
The church was in complete control...all heretics were tried by the roman church.
You can't revision history here...many jews were tried by the roman church and burned.
" In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian
heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews.
However, disputes about Maimonides ’ books (which
addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures)
provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the
Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of
volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake
took place in France."
Yet another lie...how are trials to weed out heretics and burn them saving lives?
I've already exposed your dubious lies. Your own link convicts you. It says Secular Authorities were heavily involved and carried out the executions. Its your ignorance being exposed by your link. davien:
Which was to burn him?
To find him guilty of heresy...and rightly so. cool... you went to yahoo and found a catholic that dismissed the church's bloody history. And to end it you arrived at your initial assertion of there being an "atheist religion" and "atheist civil authorities" that killed tens of millions. So in total you gave a series of lies and then misrepresented atheism to keep your belief n a magic man [/quote] Not just that Catholic on yahoo. Your own Wikipedia link disproves you. Seasoned historians disprove you. You want to claim that the Soviet Leaders were not Atheists...and they didnt kill tens of millions? Wikipedia disproves you. History disproves you. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 9:23am On Nov 29, 2014 |
Kay17:
The Catholic church punished and imprisoned Galileo, and worse off, apologized for the act. Neither were the Crusades as dignifying as you claim they were. The Muslims were in control of the area for a good while, prior to the Crusades. And yes, the atheist Soviet Union committed atrocities along with Communist China and Albania. At least you appear a more honest debater. 1. My aim here was not to say that the Church has never done wrong in 2000 years. Of course, it has. It's composed of humans. My aim was to respond to Davien who suggested that religious people kill, unlike Atheists...and religion stiffles what is good and true. That's why I showed him how the Catholic Church built western civilization and how Atheists are the worst mass murderers in history by a distance. 2. If you want to narrow this wide issue to only Galileo and the crusades, then you should tell me what is the aim of doing so. But to answer to your points above: It could be argued that the Church did Galileo a favour. If Galileo had been subjected to mob justice, as many people in his situation were, he would have ended badly. The Pope apologizing doesn't necessarily mean they were wrong in what they did...just like your father apologizing after reprimanding you with a slap doesn't mean you didn't deserve the slap. Have you read the Galileo story from an honest source? What did the Church do wrong? You know you haven't showed why the crusades were not a good thing. Boko Haram, ISIS should be allowed to keep the territories they have controlled for a good while, right? |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by Nobody: 11:54am On Nov 29, 2014 |
davien:
The bulk of your posts still fail to get my reply.
1. communism is not atheism...it can be atheistic and theistic,you can go and learn about christian communism.
2.Being that you agree that it was about dialectical materialism through the imposement of state atheism then you have no point to point to atheism being the cause of deaths...
Since he had the view of dialetical materialism he needed to find a way to enforce that and control the people,he already knew religion had people under control( hence he noted religion as the "opium of the masses" )...so he enacted the employment of a new regime (communism).
3.And with that killed millions....
The point here is that an atheistic policy was needed to enact communism.. The fact that Lenin revolution and Stalin government kill more Atheists as Christians proved they were both not Atheists. Never did the two of them referred to themselves as Atheists rather than people made that up and put them into that position. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 2:17pm On Nov 29, 2014 |
Kay17:
Italo,
So you admit the Church did execute individuals for heresy, thereby making itself available as a means by the secular authorities, right? No |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by Kay17: 5:26pm On Nov 29, 2014 |
italo:
At least you appear a more honest debater.
1. My aim here was not to say that the Church has never done wrong in 2000 years. Of course, it has. It's composed of humans. My aim was to respond to Davien who suggested that religious people kill, unlike Atheists...and religion stiffles what is good and true. That's why I showed him how the Catholic Church built western civilization and how Atheists are the worst mass murderers in history by a distance.
2. If you want to narrow this wide issue to only Galileo and the crusades, then you should tell me what is the aim of doing so. But to answer to your points above:
It could be argued that the Church did Galileo a favour. If Galileo had been subjected to mob justice, as many people in his situation were, he would have ended badly. The Pope apologizing doesn't necessarily mean they were wrong in what they did...just like your father apologizing after reprimanding you with a slap doesn't mean you didn't deserve the slap.
Have you read the Galileo story from an honest source?
What did the Church do wrong?
You know you haven't showed why the crusades were not a good thing.
Boko Haram, ISIS should be allowed to keep the territories they have controlled for a good while, right? Yet heresy is a religious crime. A crime against God, and whatever constitutes heresy would hardly be clear to a largely illiterate population. Except a figure of apt authority such as priest, told them what heresy was and who was committing the masses wouldn't have known. Again, you argued your perspective. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 10:35pm On Nov 29, 2014 |
Kay17:
Yet heresy is a religious crime. A crime against God, and whatever constitutes heresy would hardly be clear to a largely illiterate population. Except a figure of apt authority such as priest, told them what heresy was and who was committing the masses wouldn't have known. Again, you argued your perspective. Heresy was a crime against the state. Many people accused used to be subject to mob justice...many innocent people were killed. The Church stepped in with the inquisition to give each accused a fair trial. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by Kay17: 11:29pm On Nov 29, 2014 |
italo:
Heresy was a crime against the state.
Many people accused used to be subject to mob justice...many innocent people were killed.
The Church stepped in with the inquisition to give each accused a fair trial. Italo that is clearly untrue. The State and the Church were not as separated as in our times. The monarch justified his throne with the scriptures, and the scriptures were enforced with the state apparatus. Nonetheless, heresy is wholly a theological topic which was way way beyond the grasp of the common people. You have to bring practical examples to buttress your point. |
| Re: The Perfect Atheist Not An Antitheist by italo: 11:44pm On Nov 29, 2014 |
Kay17:
Italo that is clearly untrue. The State and the Church were not as separated as in our times. The monarch justified his throne with the scriptures, and the scriptures were enforced with the state apparatus. Nonetheless, heresy is wholly a theological topic which was way way beyond the grasp of the common people.
You have to bring practical examples to buttress your point.
What are you saying? That heresy was not a crime against the state? |
