@Ayinla okay i am waiting. So we all talking about this religions, are immigrants to these religions because they both were imported into our African Culture. To me, Religion was introduced to cause divide between us. Once upon a time our fore fathers were traditional idol worshipers, and even though they were little skirmishes between villages.

What Christianity/Islam has caused, is to cause wars between nations. The Muslim/Christian divide will never go away, not in this life time or the next one, and herein lies my concern.

As a young man that attended one of the Federal Government Colleges in the North, and in all my years there i loved the way this Muslim guys lived their live's. Kindness was shown to all and the killings was unheard of. I remember when those days, you could stop at a strangers house in the North and pass the night if you stranded without the fear of being killed.

Now? i am so scared of Muslims, that even some Northerners that have names like Yakubu, who ordinarily are Christians still scare me as i keep thinking they are Muslims.

But how did we get here?

How did we Nigerians start using religion as a tool for destruction?

Another thing. The Muslims in Northern Nigeria and those in the Southern/Western part of Nigeria has always puzzled me, do they believe in the same Koran? if yes, why then are the Western Muslims more tolerant with others than those from the North?

Look at China, Religion is an offence there and so they are not killing each other over it.
Wish Islam/Christianity could just disappear so we all could live in peace, or some sort of societal balance.

The threas is Misleading, just as the religion is misleading, just as the Koran is misleading, just as the author (Muhammad) is misleadin, just as the followers are mislead.

The layman is probably confused; shall we break it down for him? Definitely

Islam: A religion where a dead paedophile, Jihadist leads a bunch of brainless humand (Zombies) straight to hell.

Now the layman understands.

ayinba1:
@malvis and ifean, I understand your dilemma because you are bound to continue this way if you persist in following websites and sources that have a single goal of turning you away from the truth of Islam. I am only to invite you because it would be ridiculous for me to find information about Christianity from an atheist website. When you are ready, please get a copy of the Quran and find out About Islam from people like Yusuf Estes, Nouman Ali khan and mufti menk. It will broaden your horizon. I wish you well.
@lafflaff, please be patient with me, I do not know the verses off hand and do not wish to misquote anything but I saw your question, it's a good one

the verse I quote is it from a website or quran? When the op copy and paste an articles from a antichristianity website ,you dint cry fowl but when I quote directly from the quran you comes up with excuses. Am done arguing with muslims but you guys keep on trolling this section with topic against christians faith even dough you have your own separate section.view the thread in the islamic section,there is no thread that is challenging your belief.

You did noy even attempt to answer my question meaning there are contradiction in the quran.

@malvis. I have no wish to argue with you. The Quran is free from contradictions, you can take that to the bank.
You quoted from the Quran but you failed to realize that the first man worshiped God alone, associating no partners with Him. It is the same for every prophet or messenger sent to a people. They give the message but as time goes on, people begin to deviate and erect edifices/symbols/images to represent God. This is idolatry. The message becomes polluted with these inventions. The average man wants to see/feel/touch to believe. Allah is The Unseen and absolute belief in Him is the only way.

ayinba1:
@malvis. I have no wish to argue with you. The Quran is free from contradictions, you can take that to the bank.
You quoted from the Quran but you failed to realize that the first man worshiped God alone, associating no partners with Him. It is the same for every prophet or messenger sent to a people. They give the message but as time goes on, people begin to deviate and erect edifices/symbols/images to represent God. This is idolatry. The message becomes polluted with these inventions. The average man wants to see/feel/touch to believe. Allah is The Unseen and absolute belief in Him is the only way.

nobody associate partner with God because you can't divide a man from his word,they are ONE .

Abraham worship the true God and pass the covenant to isaac,and isaac unto jacob that how the it goes on until the promise is fulfilled in christ jesus. God sanction the sending away of ishmeal because His covenant was not with him (ishmeal) God only made him a great nation but the prophetic race was with isaac (quran 29:27) there is no way two sons can have the same blessing,example of this is the story of jacob and esau, isaac bless jacob although according to tradition the blessing suppose to go to esau because he was the senior but because the prophetic race pass on to jacob, God only bless esau with riches just like he bless ishmeal. So two sons cannot have the same blessing. According to muslims muhammad is from the descendant of ismeal so he cannot be a prophet from the true God.

That why the islamic creed say,lahila ah hilala hi muhammadu rasulilahi which mean I believe in allah and. Muhammad is his messenger. In other word muhammad is the only prophet in islam.

IanDiamonds:
The threas is Misleading, just as the religion is misleading, just as the Koran is misleading, just as the author (Muhammad) is misleadin, just as the followers are mislead.

The layman is probably confused; shall we break it down for him? Definitely

Islam: A religion where a dead paedophile, Jihadist leads a bunch of brainless humand (Zombies) straight to hell.

Now the layman understands.

Please don't insult moslems, many of them are good people like I suspect @ayinba1 is.
The problem is Islam. If you were born into Islam and brainwashed to recite the Koran from age 3 to adulthood you would be in the same situation.

If you have a problem with Islam, then learn about it and make effort to expose the issues to Muslims.

lafflaff123:
@Ayinla okay i am waiting. So we all talking about this religions, are immigrants to these religions because they both were imported into our African Culture. To me, Religion was introduced to cause divide between us. Once upon a time our fore fathers were traditional idol worshipers, and even though they were little skirmishes between villages.

What Christianity/Islam has caused, is to cause wars between nations. The Muslim/Christian divide will never go away, not in this life time or the next one, and herein lies my concern.

As a young man that attended one of the Federal Government Colleges in the North, and in all my years there i loved the way this Muslim guys lived their live's. Kindness was shown to all and the killings was unheard of. I remember when those days, you could stop at a strangers house in the North and pass the night if you stranded without the fear of being killed.

Now? i am so scared of Muslims, that even some Northerners that have names like Yakubu, who ordinarily are Christians still scare me as i keep thinking they are Muslims.

But how did we get here?

How did we Nigerians start using religion as a tool for destruction?

Another thing. The Muslims in Northern Nigeria and those in the Southern/Western part of Nigeria has always puzzled me, do they believe in the same Koran? if yes, why then are the Western Muslims more tolerant with others than those from the North?

Look at China, Religion is an offence there and so they are not killing each other over it.
Wish Islam/Christianity could just disappear so we all could live in peace, or some sort of societal balance.

Some errors with what you said.
You said something about peace in the past and u studied in the north. U are mistaken, Northern Muslims have always killed Christians especially Igbos and even northern Christians. Apparently you have not heard about the major Pogroms that led to the biafran war in the 1940s and 1950s when 40,000 Igbos were butchered in the north before the civil war that claimed another 1million lives. It seems nobody has mentioned to you that Nigeria had a version of bokoharam in the 1980s called mastiesene or some wierd name(I forget the spelling). They killed and slaughtered until they were finally sent to their 72virgins in paradise by the nigerian army.

You mentioned china and how religion is an offence there and that they are not killing each other. Don't you see the flaw in your statement.
The founder or father of modern day china was an atheist named Mao Zedong whose policies lead to the death of an estimated 70million people by forced labour, starvation and mass executions.
It appears you don't know that a society without religion is an atheist society and atheism is the official "religion" in china but they have moslems who carryout massive knife attacks several times a year. Its appears you don't know they have millions of buddists and millions of protestant and catholic christains who cause NO troubles. Infact research by the respected pew research Center says that in 10years there will be more christains in china than in the America.
Don't you see the pattern of violence with Islam and not religion as a whole

ayinba1:
@malvis and ifean, I understand your dilemma because you are bound to continue this way if you persist in following websites and sources that have a single goal of turning you away from the truth of Islam. I am only to invite you because it would be ridiculous for me to find information about Christianity from an atheist website. When you are ready, please get a copy of the Quran and find out About Islam from people like Yusuf Estes, Nouman Ali khan and mufti menk. It will broaden your horizon. I wish you well.
@lafflaff, please be patient with me, I do not know the verses off hand and do not wish to misquote anything but I saw your question, it's a good one

You are so polite which is nice, Good on you. However you fail to prove us wrong when we quote the questionable verses in your quran.
You sAy I and @malvisguy212 are learning about Islam from biased sources. I can't speak for malvis but I can tell you I KNOW about Yusuf etes the "ex Christian", and about Nahik Ahmed, shirby Ali, the famous Ahmed deedat etc. I don't read only these anti Islam websites, I watch videos by your Muslim scholars too. I see so much misinterpretations and lies that I get fed up with their use of Taqiyya..hope you know what Taqiyya is, it is the term used in your Koran for the approval to tell lies and deceive the unbelievers. Ahmed deedat was a very intelligent Muslim debater and scholar but do you know how he died. After mocking the Resurrection of Christ in a lecture, he was said to have declared," may God silence the deceivers" 4 weeks later he was hit with a stroke that life him unable to speak or move any part of his body other than his head for 9 (NINE) years. The only video I have seen of him after he was silenced was him crying on his bed. Go to youtube and see for yourself.

Hmmmmn very interesting and insightful thread. I wonder why the OP decided to run away.

Ifeann:


Please don't insult moslems, many of them are good people like I suspect @ayinba1 is.
The problem is Islam. If you were born into Islam and brainwashed to recite the Koran from age 3 to adulthood you would be in the same situation.

If you have a problem with Islam, then learn about it and make effort to expose the issues to Muslims.

What has this got to do with anything, the title of the thread is misleading and the OP did it intentionally showing he's dishonest, silly and an extremist.

I merely traced his dishonest character down his religion's descent. Its his genealogy I'm talking about.

malvisguy212:
nobody associate partner with God because you can't divide a man from his word,they are ONE .

Abraham worship the true God and pass the covenant to isaac,and isaac unto jacob that how the it goes on until the promise is fulfilled in christ jesus. God sanction the sending away of ishmeal because His covenant was not with him (ishmeal) God only made him a great nation but the prophetic race was with isaac (quran 29:27) there is no way two sons can have the same blessing,example of this is the story of jacob and esau, isaac bless jacob although according to tradition the blessing suppose to go to esau because he was the senior but because the prophetic race pass on to jacob, God only bless esau with riches just like he bless ishmeal. So two sons cannot have the same blessing. According to muslims muhammad is from the descendant of ismeal so he cannot be a prophet from the true God.

That why the islamic creed say,lahila ah hilala hi muhammadu rasulilahi which mean I believe in allah and. Muhammad is his messenger. In other word muhammad is the only prophet in islam.

She will not agree with your statement because ever since she was a child she has been told different. She needs to ask herself why 75 percent of new Muslim converts leave Islam with the first 3 to 5years. is it because the more they study Islam they see it can't be true? Infact, I was passing a mosque/Islamic centre the other day and saw a sign that said' "teach your children, stop the mass exodus in Islam" People are leaving in droves. Google "son of hamas" and see how he exposes Islam, this is a guy who was a terrorist, son of a hamas founder and conservative Palestine Muslim.. Until Christ freed him from bondage.

She says their is no contradiction, here is one I knw. The Qu'ran says -there is no compulsion of religion-, it also said- to you your religion and to me my religion...however the same Qu'ran says fight those who do not believe in allah (quran 9:29), strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyeilding to them (quran 9:73). It also has a lot of terrible things to say about fighting Christians and Jews until they pay the jizyah.

Now the burden of proof is on you ayinba, are these verses in there or are you going to contradict the contradictions in your KorAn? If I am right then why are you still a moslem.
Call upon the true God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to reveal the truth to you.

PastorKun:
Hmmmmn very interesting and insightful thread. I wonder why the OP decided to run away.

I have tried to get intouch with the OP to correct any errors in my comments and I have even reminded him of his obligation of da'wah. Yet he won't comment because he hasn't seen any Lie uttered. Truth say sets us free, and I pray he accepts the truth.

Ifeann:


**wow so he is dead already. U don't need to be puzzled abt the anger in true moslems.
These moderate Muslims keep telling us Islam is peaceful but the early 7th 8th and 9th century Muslims will be ashamed of these moderates. Have they asked themselves why if u practise Islam in its every instruction you become an extremist. Even Muslim countries are afraid to implement sharia to its fullest. Please Muslims pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to open your eyes to the truth an not the god of the kaaba.

Please Muslims Go and read your Koran and hadiths in 21st century English and not 7th century classical Arabic if you want to understand why we have isis , bokoharam, alqaeda, hamas, hezbolla, etc ,and why a moslem jihadist just died in Sydney and taking the lives of 2 innocent people in the process.
He is promised 72 virgins in paradise and perpetual erections for intercourse and wine (I hope u knw wine isn't allowed in this life but it is allowed in the next for Muslims), read your sources and authentic hadiths.

EWU!!

tartar9:
EWU!!

Wow, you see my comment on the falsehoods in Islam and instead of you to perform your Islam obligation of de'wah, you throw an insult. I don't think you know why you used an insult. Let me explain. It is the spirit of Islam within you. That spirit that turn quiet students training to be doctors in the uk into jihadists blowing themselves up in Syria. That spirit that makes you hate the Jew and thirst for their blood.
I did a little look into your past posts and I saw how childish you comments are, how much hate has held you. However, you are a brother in humanity and I chose to reply you to explain to you why you are filled with so much hate.

Don't ajudge things without making thorough research, all that were said above is nothing but the truth.

Ifeann:
Stop the lies , these "facts" are lies

@lafflaff
I went to a Federal school too, in the North. Prior to that I had minimal contact with that many kids from other tribes and I have not been indoctrinated to believe the worst about people for the fact that they are different; thank God.

I saw the good, bad and ugly of chritians, muslims, pagans, Yoruba, hausa, ibo, ijaw, urhobo, Fulani, jukun, kilba to name a few. I could not say by statistics that one group of people were better, worse or uglier than the other based simply on their hometown or religion. This is the aim (or should be) of federal schools.
Unfortunately for someone who at age 9, 10 or 11 has already been brainwashed into believing the worst about a certain group simply because they are not his/her group, the eyes to see people as people are greatly impaired and diminished. SOme people know it in their hearts but prejudice clouds their reasoning and they speak against what they know to be true.



To answer your question about the Prophets and Messenger who were Muslim, I have pasted a few verses of the Holy Quran here.
Qur'an 4:163-165
163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;
164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

Qur'an 6:84-86
84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
85 And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
86 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures,

Qur'an 21:85-88
85 And (mention) Ishmael, and Idris (Enoch), and Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel). All were of the steadfast.
86 And We brought them in unto Our mercy. Lo! they are among the righteous.
87 And (mention) Dhun Nun (Jonah), when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! I have been a wrong-doer.
88 Then We heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus We save believers.

Qur'an 7:73
And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

Qur'an 26:123-125
123 (The tribe of) Aad denied the messengers (of Allah),
124 When their brother Hud said unto them: Will ye not ward off (evil)?
125 Lo! I am a faithful messenger unto you,

Qur'an 7:85
To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib one of their own brethren: he said: "O my people! worship Allah; Ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord! Give just measure and weight nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order: that will be best for you if ye have faith.

Qur'an 21:107
And We did not send you (O Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the worlds.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/nabi.html

Some, not all, of these men of God were mentioned in today's Bible;I added the link so that you can see more there.. This website used Picthall and Yusuf Ali translations

malvisguy212:
nobody associate partner with God because you can't divide a man from his word,they are ONE .

Abraham worship the true God and pass the covenant to isaac,and isaac unto jacob that how the it goes on until the promise is fulfilled in christ jesus. God sanction the sending away of ishmeal because His covenant was not with him (ishmeal) God only made him a great nation but the prophetic race was with isaac (quran 29:27) there is no way two sons can have the same blessing,example of this is the story of jacob and esau, isaac bless jacob although according to tradition the blessing suppose to go to esau because he was the senior but because the prophetic race pass on to jacob, God only bless esau with riches just like he bless ishmeal. So two sons cannot have the same blessing. According to muslims muhammad is from the descendant of ismeal so he cannot be a prophet from the true God.

That why the islamic creed say,lahila ah hilala hi muhammadu rasulilahi which mean I believe in allah and. Muhammad is his messenger. In other word muhammad is the only prophet in islam.

This is a blatant attempt to mislead people. How did you arrive at the "in other word" part of the translation? You quote the verses and add your own little piece to it.
Don't you know that "Thou shalt not add nor remove from The Message"? Or have you become a Quran scholar already?

Any muslim with understanding of the religion knows that the Message includes the following

1. Belief in the Oneness of God
2. Messengers and Prophets of God
3. Revelations (Quran)
4. Angels
5. Day of Judgement
6. Predestination


Open your heart and seek the truth. Pray to God for guidance and May Allah have mercy upon you and me too.

@lafflaff
I wanted to add this

Please watch Yusuf Estee video(s) on Youtube that defines Islam and who a muslim is, then the verses will make more sense. Also, when you read the Quran where these verses come from, read the verses prior to and after the quoted verse to avoid "quoted out of context verses".


@all
If I have contributed to your understanding of Islam in any positive way, Alhamdulillah. For my errors, I apologize and seek Allah's forgiveness. I will respond to additional questions that indicate that the asker read the Quran, in sha Allah. Otherwise, I have done my duty here, no benefits to argument. More work to be done in improving my practice of the deen to seek the pleasure of Allah. Salam alaykum

malvisguy212:
The Qur’an states Muhammad was the first Muslim. ( Surah 6:163). However, it also that Abraham who lived centuries before Muhammad was a Muslim. ( Surah 3:67). And The Qur’an states that the disciples of Jesus who lived before Muhammad were also Muslims. ( Surah 5: 111). In fact, the Qur’an claims that all prophets, from the time of Abraham to Muhammad were Muslims. (Surah 22:78)
My question;
1. Since the quran say muhammed is the first muslim while at the same time declaring abraham and the rest who live hundred of years before the coming of muhammed to be a muslims,is this not a clear prove of contradiction?
2. How are you going to reconcile the Qur’an’s claim
that Muhammad was the first Muslim with the
Qur’an’s statement that the disciples of Jesus who
lived before him were Muslims?
3. Do you not agree that if Abraham was truly a
Muslim as the Qur’an claims, then Muhammad
cannot be the first Muslim?
4. Do you not agree that if the disciples of Jesus were truly Muslims as the Qur’an claims, then Muhammad cannot be the first Muslim?
5. Do you not agree that one or the other verse in the Qur’an is a lie?
6. Does this not clearly prove that the Qur’an contains a false statement in it?
Will the true Word of God contain an error in it?
7. As such, can you really trust the Qur’an as the Word of God?

Soo many question needed answer,the op say islam mean peace,surrender,does this not go against the freewill of God?adam and eve were giving a freewill which God did not interfere with,the word'' surrender'' seem's like a man who has ONE option to love God or die, but freewill has TWO option,love God or hate Him, it a choice which God will not interfere in it.

I am the first of those who submit........ Is the statement. Not the first person to submit. He is the top most muslim, the highest muslim........ Not the first person to do it on earth. There is a different between the tafsir of the quran, what those who understand Arabic and what non muslims believe. Muslim believe the tafsir. But when I see non muslim argue, they assume what muslims believe and then argue based on their assumption. It is equivalent to muslims assuming that a redeemer is a cele and arguing with the redeemer based on the assumption. Wanna know what muslim belief and correct the belief? Then learn what muslims believe in. If you are arguing that the meaning given to the verse I explained is not correct giving adequate quotes from the quran and hadith, that is an argument I will definitely learn from but imposing your own Interpretation and arguing again it........... Makes it look like the redeemer and c nd s example I gave above. Peace be onto you.
Modified

About free will. Let me use your example to explain the concept of free will in Islam or the way I believe it as a muslim. God gave Adam and Eve the freewill to eat and not to eat the forbidden fruit. God gave human same kind of free will.


God gave them the instruction not to eat the forbidden fruit, they submit to his instruction, surrender to his instruction by not eating it even though it may go against their wish.
I hope you have a glimpse on how muslim see the concept? Peace be onto you.

ypeace:
I am the first of those who submit........ Is the statement. Not the first person to submit. He is the top most muslim, the highest muslim........ Not the first person to do it on earth. There is a different between the tafsir of the quran, what those who understand Arabic and what non muslims believe. Muslim believe the tafsir. But when I see non muslim argue, they assume what muslims believe and then argue based on their assumption. It is equivalent to muslims assuming that a redeemer is a cele and arguing with the redeemer based on the assumption. Wanna know what muslim belief and correct the belief? Then learn what muslims believe in. If you are arguing that the meaning given to the verse I explained is not correct giving adequate quotes from the quran and hadith, that is an argument I will definitely learn from but imposing your own Interpretation and arguing again it........... Makes it look like the redeemer and c nd s example I gave above. Peace be onto you.

Christianity is a little bit more complicated than what you think, as most Christians have different beliefs and how they worship in the Christendom, for example the Cele and most White Garment churches still believe in the Old Testament. They also believe in marrying more than one woman, and believe a woman on her menstrual cycle is not suppose to be inside the church as they consider it unclean.

But for Islam, its one Koran, one Belief, one behavior, same radicalization, same peaceful preaching until they get offended and honestly people keep referring to all Muslims as one, because there really is no proven yardstick for the differentiation between MUSLIM (A) and MUSLIM(B)

Even the Sunni's and Shiites read the same Koran.

So this is is the little help i want from you and AYINBA1 and that is, HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH MUSLIMS to trust? which one to be Comfortable with? which one would not classify us and infidels and want to slit our throats?why do i need to be forced to be a Muslim to even live in some society in the world?

So back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Other Islamic faithfuls in Egypt were so very uncomfortable with the brand of Islam they were preaching that they not only got thrown out of power, but also threw them in jail.

YPEACE and AYINBA1 why is the Koran, which is just one(not like the Christian old testament and new testament)open to such different interpretation? we are learning here, and i really await your replies.

lafflaff123:


Christianity is a little bit more complicated than what you think, as most Christians have different beliefs and how they worship in the Christendom, for example the Cele and most White Garment churches still believe in the Old Testament. They also believe in marrying more than one woman, and believe a woman on her menstrual cycle is not suppose to be inside the church as they consider it unclean.

But for Islam, its one Koran, one Belief, one behavior, same radicalization, same peaceful preaching until they get offended and honestly people keep referring to all Muslims as one, because there really is no proven yardstick for the differentiation between MUSLIM (A) and MUSLIM(B)

Even the Sunni's and Shiites read the same Koran.

So this is is the little help i want from you and AYINBA1 and that is, HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH MUSLIMS to trust? which one to be Comfortable with? which one would not classify us and infidels and want to slit our throats?why do i need to be forced to be a Muslim to even live in some society in the world?

So back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Other Islamic faithfuls in Egypt were so very uncomfortable with the brand of Islam they were preaching that they not only got thrown out of power, but also threw them in jail.

YPEACE and AYINBA1 why is the Koran, which is just one(not like the Christian old testament and new testament)open to such different interpretation? we are learning here, and i really await your replies.

If all of us are placed in the same class, taught the same thing by the same teacher under the same conditions. Are we going to understand it the same way? Will the person who understand it most be held responsible for those who don't understand at all?

Different interpretations?.......... Personal interpretations.... Yes.
Most muslims distort meaning of the quran to achieve their 'objectives' . Muhammad is a practical example of the quran. Any islamic act not supported by these won't even make sense to a muslim. Sunni's and other sects issue, if it doesn't happen, then Muhammad's sayings about the last hour will be wrong. What a muslim should do in such a situation where we have various distortions is clearly taught by muhammed (saw) .

In short what causes the different interpretations is due to 'human negative side'....... Ignorance, mischief, culture, laziness etc.

That is why when you are ' preaching ' to a muslim, it is important to know what he believes or else it would seem like a muslim preaching against kneeling down to Mary, what catholics do, to a cele. Imagine the expression on the face of the Cele.


What non muslims call extremists are what muslims see as those who are on the wrong path or misled.

I don't think it have answered your questions convincingly though but I wish you read slowly and try to get my message. Peace.


Modified.....
How to know which muslim to believe?
The one who practices islam. How do you know islam. Learn islam. How? An example is questioning which you are doing. But the best way is Qur’an and authentic tafsir from authentic hadith. I as a civilian knows little about what a military officer must know about Islam. So have it in mind you can't have all answers about Islam from a single person. May God guide us right.

[quote author=ayinba1 post=28993799]@lafflaff

@AYINBA1 u are missing the point of this discussion entirely. @YPEACE

The point of this discussion is NOT- did the qu'ran say Moses, Noah and co were Muslims? or did the qu'ran say that allah sent Mohammed .
I don't believe your Book, so don't quote its passages to make your point. Don't you get it. If you tell me Jesus was only scourged but not crucified (as your Muslim scholars teach) I don't go to the bible and say look ayinba the Bible verses says so. This is because you don't believe the Holy Bible. So I go to the writings of historians (books and online) about the historical Jesus and see arguments by atheists, christain and Muslim apologetics and make an informed decision and quote them while using commons sense.
The point I am trying to get across is that there is so much violence in your "holy" book, it has tons of contradictions and abrogations, questionable revelations that favour Mohammeds desires and it also goes against very important facts we know about a loving God the father which we know by comparing information from the Quran with true scriptures , the torah and injeel/BIble.
Read my first /second comment on this topic and see the questions I asked about almost all the "30 facts" of Islam.
The OP has remained slient because he can NOT dispute them and show evidence of any error to the ***objections .
You said their is no contradiction in the Koran and I asked you this, "The Qu'ran says -there is no compulsion of religion-, it also said- to you your religion and to me my religion...however the Qu'ran says fight those who do not believe in Allah (quran 9:29), strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyeilding to them (quran 9:73).
Quran 2:193. "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."
Quran 8:39. "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do."
Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Contradictions (initially everyone has the right to choose his own religion, Quran chapter 109, and in the end polytheists have to be killed in Quran 9.5),

Once again, the burden of proof is on you ayinba, are these verses in there or are you going to contradict the contradictions in your KorAn? Did I misquote or misinterpret..or do I just know more about your Koran even MORE than you the Muslim If I am right then why are you still a Muslim.

Call upon the true God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to reveal the truth to you.

Ifeann:

@AYINBA1 u are missing the point of this discussion entirely. @YPEACE.

Please who is missing the point me, AYINBA1 or both of us. About the op. You can't say for certain why the op has ignored the thrend. About what you wrote, I will have to go through the whole discussion about that from the first page before replying. Though I may keep quiet if others who are more knowledgeable reply you because I am still a learner. Peace be onto you

lafflaff123:


Christianity is a little bit more complicated than what you think, as most Christians have different beliefs and how they worship in the Christendom, for example the Cele and most White Garment churches still believe in the Old Testament. They also believe in marrying more than one woman, and believe a woman on her menstrual cycle is not suppose to be inside the church as they consider it unclean.

But for Islam, its one Koran, one Belief, one behavior, same radicalization, same peaceful preaching until they get offended and honestly people keep referring to all Muslims as one, because there really is no proven yardstick for the differentiation between MUSLIM (A) and MUSLIM(B)

Even the Sunni's and Shiites read the same Koran.

So this is is the little help i want from you and AYINBA1 and that is, HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH MUSLIMS to trust? which one to be Comfortable with? which one would not classify us and infidels and want to slit our throats?why do i need to be forced to be a Muslim to even live in some society in the world?

So back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Other Islamic faithfuls in Egypt were so very uncomfortable with the brand of Islam they were preaching that they not only got thrown out of power, but also threw them in jail.

YPEACE and AYINBA1 why is the Koran, which is just one(not like the Christian old testament and new testament)open to such different interpretation? we are learning here, and i really await your replies.

You forget to ask them this. Why does the Koran say repeatedly that it is clear to understand, easy to comprehend. If ayinba and peace read their Koran they should have seen several passages that say so, However their is so much confusion with the interpretation of verses. So much moslems depend on their scholars, apologetics, imam, shiek etc for explanations That's why you have the Wahabi, Salafists, sunnis, shites, alwaites, ahmedies. Their disputes are so intense that they blow each other up for it.
Why do I knw that isalm's domination agenda will ultimately fail? Here is why, The bible let's us knw that a house divided amongst itself shall not stand and God is not the author of confusion.

ypeace:


Please who is missing the point me, AYINBA1 or both of us. About the op. You can't say for certain why the op has ignored the thrend. About what you wrote, I will have to go through the whole discussion about that from the first page before replying. Though I may keep quiet if others who are more knowledgeable reply you because I am still a learner. Peace be onto you

My reply was to ayinba1 , I mentioned you because you seek more understanding. I like the fact you admit you are still a learner, God is merciful and loving, he has directed your path to this forum so that you can learn from people who spend their free time exposing Muslims to the truths of Islam. And if ever I quote a verse wrongly it is not intentional.

Before you continue learning, call upon the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to bring you to the truth. Salam alaykum

Ifeann:


You forget to ask them this. Why does the Koran say repeatedly that it is clear to understand, easy to comprehend. If ayinba and peace read their Koran they should have seen several passages that say so, However their is so much confusion with the interpretation of verses. So much moslems depend on their scholars, apologetics, imam, shiek etc for explanations That's why you have the Wahabi, Salafists, sunnis, shites, alwaites, ahmedies. Their disputes are so intense that they blow each other up for it.
Why do I knw that isalm's domination agenda will ultimately fail? Here is why, The bible let's us knw that a house divided amongst itself shall not stand and God is not the author of confusion.

when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, there was no confusion about the message. But how come they both ate it? for those who reflect and those who do not listen to the whisper of shaitan, the message of the Qur'an is clear.

ypeace:
I am the first of those who submit........ Is the statement. Not the first person to submit. He is the top most muslim, the highest muslim........ Not the first person to do it on earth. There is a different between the tafsir of the quran, what those who understand Arabic and what non muslims believe. Muslim believe the tafsir. But when I see non muslim argue, they assume what muslims believe and then argue based on their assumption. It is equivalent to muslims assuming that a redeemer is a cele and arguing with the redeemer based on the assumption. Wanna know what muslim belief and correct the belief? Then learn what muslims believe in. If you are arguing that the meaning given to the verse I explained is not correct giving adequate quotes from the quran and hadith, that is an argument I will definitely learn from but imposing your own Interpretation and arguing again it........... Makes it look like the redeemer and c nd s example I gave above. Peace be onto you.
Modified

About free will. Let me use your example to explain the concept of free will in Islam or the way I believe it as a muslim. God gave Adam and Eve the freewill to eat and not to eat the forbidden fruit. God gave human same kind of free will.


God gave them the instruction not to eat the forbidden fruit, they submit to his instruction, surrender to his instruction by not eating it even though it may go against their wish.
I hope you have a glimpse on how muslim see the concept? Peace be onto you.

you are confusing your self, first you say he was the first to submit your next statement say '' Not the first person to submit''. Then abraham who live thousand of years before muhammed did not submit? But he was a muslim.
The hadith say muhammed was in the cave of hira when the truth descend on him. Does this mean all other prophet were living in lies? If other's prophet were abiding in truth and the scripture was sufficient to saved them, what the need of the quran? There is a manipulation going on some where in the quran, satan is battling with the truth.

God told adam not to eat the fruit and adam submit? But the bible say adam disobey God.

ypeace:


when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, there was no confusion about the message. But how come they both ate it? for those who reflect and those who do not listen to the whisper of shaitan, the message of the Qur'an is clear.

I don't even understand what you are trying to suggest with regard to the points I raised.

My point is that isalm is false. Look ponder on this,

For 1400 years , that is 14 centuries, Islam has battled to dominate the world as it is commanded in your Quran. And for 1400 years it has failed. Your Islamic empires and caliphates came and disappeared into the histories.

Christians have been persecuted by Muslims as commanded in your book and has paided the jizyah for centuries yet Christians still out number moslems and surpass Islam in progress and contribution to humanity. The most power nation on earth was founded with christain principles and has led the world in progress with science, art etc.

Again after centuries of persecuting Jews they still managed to create a homeland in the very heart of Islamic nations. They fought a war in 1967 shortly after their creation in 1948, they were attacked by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq who where supported by Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, the PLO, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, tunisa and YET Israel WON in 6 days. CAN'T you see that the God of Israel saw his people victorious. 1.2 billion Muslims yet 20million Jews dominate you in politics, sciencific breakthrough, arts, economics, education, human rights, inventions, social system, military etc.. Why are they so bless even though your book condemns them and calls them pigs.

Ponder on this my friend.

Ifeann:


My reply was to ayinba1 , I mentioned you because you seek more understanding. I like the fact you admit you are still a learner, God is merciful and loving, he has directed your path to this forum so that you can learn from people who spend their free time exposing Muslims to the truths of Islam. And if ever I quote a verse wrongly it is not intentional.

Before you continue learning, call upon the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to bring you to the truth. Salam alaykum

exposing muslims you say, interpreting islam from your own perspective i say.

Perspective…….. Before I proceed, I will first like to discuss this because I think it will aid my explanation.
Naturally, when we encounter information which is against our belief, we go into a defensive mode. And when the info is in support of our belief, we switch to attacking mode. The way we interpret info is based on prior belief, knowledge and experience. It determines what and what we give more importance to.

You naturally give preference to some ayats of the Quran over others. same thing I think those called extremist do. Truly, a muslim can kill, it is part of our constitution...... Quar'an. If you should killing, no matter the situation, is not allowed, then, even christians in the army defending their territory may get punished for it. Even the constitution of Nigeria supports killing as a form of punishment.

though you dont believe in Muhammad (saw), but to a muslim, he is the best interpreter of the Quran. We, muslims interprete the Quran the way the prophet has taught us and also because we gave preference to his teachings. in that sense, the quran verses you quoted earlier does not apply to situation where muslims are not being prosecuted by non muslims. And even when muslims are oppressed, and the oppressor has repented, then it will be better for a muslim to stay away from revenging. what of when non muslim are oppressing us, we have the right to defend or retaliate approppriately. I have tried not to quote the Quran because you dont believe in it. And i know you may not agree with my explanation because you dont agree with what I believed before making this deduction. In order to be able to convince ourselves, it will be important to tackle previous beliefs. God knows best. peace.

Ifeann:


I don't even understand what you are trying to suggest with regard to the points I raised.

My point is that isalm is false. Look ponder on this,

For 1400 years , that is 14 centuries, Islam has battled to dominate the world as it is commanded in your Quran. And for 1400 years it has failed. Your Islamic empires and caliphates came and disappeared into the histories.

Christians have been persecuted by Muslims as commanded in your book and has paided the jizyah for centuries yet Christians still out number moslems and surpass Islam in progress and contribution to humanity. The most power nation on earth was founded with christain principles and has led the world in progress with science, art etc.

Again after centuries of persecuting Jews they still managed to create a homeland in the very heart of Islamic nations. They fought a war in 1967 shortly after their creation in 1948, they were attacked by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq who where supported by Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, the PLO, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, tunisa and YET Israel WON in 6 days. CAN'T you see that the God of Israel saw his people victorious. 1.2 billion Muslims yet 20million Jews dominate you in politics, sciencific breakthrough, arts, economics, education, human rights, inventions, social system, military etc.. Why are they so bless even though your book condemns them and calls them pigs.

Ponder on this my friend.

it is not part of the belief of a muslim that we would dominate in politics, scientific knowlege etc. And I don't think winning of wars by non muslims is a criteria for selecting what is right about Islam. And according to sayings of the Muhammad, which you dont believe anyway, Islam is what he said it would be during the last hour we are in. I dont see us agreeing on anything because what we are discussing is the result of our different beliefs not the belief themselves.

ypeace:


exposing muslims you say, interpreting islam from your own perspective i say.

Perspective…….. Before I proceed, I will first like to discuss this because I think it will aid my explanation.
Naturally, when we encounter information which is against our belief, we go into a defensive mode. And when the info is in support of our belief, we switch to attacking mode. The way we interpret info is based on prior belief, knowledge and experience. It determines what and what we give more importance to.

You naturally give preference to some ayats of the Quran over others. same thing I think those called extremist do. Truly, a muslim can kill, it is part of our constitution...... Quar'an. If you should killing, no matter the situation, is not allowed, then, even christians in the army defending their territory may get punished for it. Even the constitution of Nigeria supports killing as a form of punishment.

though you dont believe in Muhammad (saw), but to a muslim, he is the best interpreter of the Quran. We, muslims interprete the Quran the way the prophet has taught us and also because we gave preference to his teachings. in that sense, the quran verses you quoted earlier does not apply to situation where muslims are not being prosecuted by non muslims. And even when muslims are oppressed, and the oppressor has repented, then it will be better for a muslim to stay away from revenging. what of when non muslim are oppressing us, we have the right to defend or retaliate approppriately. I have tried not to quote the Quran because you dont believe in it. And i know you may not agree with my explanation because you dont agree with what I believed before making this deduction. In order to be able to convince ourselves, it will be important to tackle previous beliefs. God knows best. peace.

I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.