.

Jesus christ loves you and wants you to come to him so your sins can be forgiven! Just ask and u will experience a big change in your life. Jesus said no one comes to the father except by me. Which means the god that alot of people are serving isnt real. Because the only way u can spend eternity with god is by going to Jesus. He died for us so that we can live instead of dying. Hell is growing more and more every second. There are thousands of people having vision and dreams of people they know that burning in hell and jesus is telling them to worn the world that he is coming quick and everyone needs to be ready. Which means sin free. People are also dying and going there but they was given a second chance so they can share the word Please just ask him to show you what im talking about. He loves you and want you to come to him. Time is running out and you can even tell by the weather and the events thats going on! He created us so that we can replenish the earth and serve him in free will. Choose him hes awesome and great without him I am nothing!

ypeace:
@ifeann
These are real life problems islam provides solution to. You disagree with the solutions because you have a better one which I expect you to state.
Because people used the law neglecting the conditions surrounding it is never the fault of the law maker.

I asked those questions because I don't want to make the assumption that you believe all Jesus teaching applies to Governing a state.

If it does, then let's see how these problems can be solved using the teachings of Christ or at best the comforter since that is what I assumed is the standard of comparison.



All laws in Islam has conditions. Like lawyers, we have those who specializes in that aspect of Islam. For you to say a law in Islam is bad, I expect you know the laws and their conditions and also you have a better law for replacement. That is what I think our discussion is about.

But if you wanna learn about the laws in Islam, you ask questions and not make claims as you have been doing. It is not possible filling a cup which is already full. Peace.

I have made no claims, I have only provided you with the actions of your prophet in the top 2 sahih hadiths (bakhari and Muslim) as well as verses from quran with the interpretation from your scholars. I have my opinions and have I said them as honest as possible.

I have given u their translations from classical Arabic to 21st century English, but you claim your own scholars misinterpreted/ mistranslated it, but I posit you are the one who wants to dilute and reinterpret the quran even tho your god has said it is clear and easy to understand and the commands are for all time.

If your god is all knowing how come commands for slavery was given in several verses, including breeding them while infact Today slavery is illegal in most of the world except in Islamic countries.
Qatar has major slavery issues and dubia which treat the dark Arab race as subhuman. Tho it is not wide spread due to human rights groups and the dominance of the largely christian populated western world governements that keep the Muslims in check. I have given u so many verses translated by your sources. I won't tell you everything, read your quran and the bible(NT).

From my discussions with you I sense you have a conscience, can u sleep with a 9year old child..my guess will be NO because it is NOT moral, yet a man u emulate did it.


You keep telling me Mohammed brought laws for this world. That's funny, this is one of the reasons we know Mohammed is a false prophet because the Holy Bible tells us we are NOT of THIS world.
Do you know why there is separation of church and state, why there are NO christain countries. Because the church leading states as a government will soil the integrity of the church. Government and corrupt are inseparable. Christ made it clear to us his kingdom is coming and your quran even says he is coming. Christ told us to beware of false prophets that will come to deceive, these are in the christain Gospels written hunderds of years before Islam, and before the Gnostic "christains", before the Jehovah withness, Mormons, word of faith movement.. These groups come and attack the gospel or attempt to deceive but yet Christianity stands strong.

If you chose to become a christain, a true christain doing Gods work, you will be insulted, persecuted and even killed like it is done in the middle east.. We expect this as christians because it is said in our Bible. I have been insulted here by Muslims over and over again. But I remember it is alread said in the bible in Matt. 10:25-26, " If they have called the Master Beelzebub, how much more shall they call His household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Do u want us to discuss someother issue because I am bored of the killings in Islam as a topic.

Ifeann:


I don't understand why Muslims, atheists and even ignorant "Christians" attack Christmas.

This is a day that the church picked to celebrate Jesus Christ yet people bring up all sorts of arguments; how do we knw its his exact date of birth, isn't that day associated with some pagan practise in the past, but Christmas is not in the bible (the word bible is not in the bible). Isn't it all silly.

Some people will spend the day drinking, partying or opening presents by Santa clause but are they Christians?.

Christmas is a day that most true Christians attend church and praise God.
Its a day that see charity donations exponentially increase.
Its a day of thanks giving and gift giving.
A day whole families come together and bond.
Its a day of love and the message of Christ is heard by both Christians and non Christians.
Its a day for reflection.
Its a holiday people take the day off from work and stay home with their kids.

Instead of tracing it origins I would rather commend the church for turning it to the beautiful day that it is today.
A day chosen to celebrate the Son of God who is born that will save man from sin.

True

By the way, no one is being compelled to celebrate christmas. All these unsolicited condemnation will never stop billions of christians around the world from celebrating christmas.

These jobless critics have made it an annual personal assignment to condemn what does not concern them. Talk about drinking paracetamol for another person's headache.

They are only wasting their miserable time. Well, na dem sabi.

Yazach

I am only going to explain 1 of the verses you quoted, if you want to understand the other one, get a holy Bible, read the entire thing and ask me for information regarding the larger context if you are too lazy to read the entire chapter.

You quoted Exodus 21: 7-11,
...And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to MARRY HIS SON, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as HIS DAUGHTER. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a FREE WOMAN without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Remember, like I told you before, this is ancient law, thousands of years before Jesus and your prophet.

And notice you picked one of the worse verses about the treatment of slaves in the old testament, and yet it is better than your best verse on slavery.

what you didn't notice is that the Jews were ALLOWED TO MARRY SLAVES AND THEY ARE FREE TO LEAVE HENCE NOT AGAISNT THEiR WILL as the ending of that passage shows.

in your haste to embarrass the old testament you once again condemn the Islam as evil . Let's see how slaves are treated in Islam even if they are married.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (24:32)-"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178)-"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans arenotcreated equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's)

Now the new testament

Galatians 3:28p
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond(slave) nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond(slave) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Colossians 3:11:"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond(slave) nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Ifeann:
Yazach

I am only going to explain 1 of the verses you quoted, if you want to understand the other one, get a holy Bible, read the entire thing and ask me for information regarding the larger context if you are too lazy to read the entire chapter.

You quoted Exodus 21: 7-11,
...And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to MARRY HIS SON, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as HIS DAUGHTER. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a FREE WOMAN without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Remember, like I told you before, this is ancient law, thousands of years before Jesus and your prophet.

And notice you picked one of the worse verses about the treatment of slaves in the old testament, and yet it is better than your best verse on slavery.

what you didn't notice is that the Jews were ALLOWED TO MARRY SLAVES AND THEY ARE FREE TO LEAVE HENCE NOT AGAISNT THEiR WILL as the ending of that passage shows.

in your haste to embarrass the old testament you once again condemn the Islam as evil . Let's see how slaves are treated in Islam even if they are married.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (24:32)-"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178)-"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans arenotcreated equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's)

Now the new testament

Galatians 3:28p
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond(slave) nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond(slave) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Colossians 3:11:"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond(slave) nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Yazach here is more from sahih Muslim and sahih bakhari. The best most authentic hadiths if you are a sunni Muslim. The Narrations have been summarised for your convinence;

Bukhari (80:753)-"The Prophet said,'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Bukhari (52:255)- The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.598)- Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137)- An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432)- Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765)- A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351)- Muhammad sells a slave for money. He was thus a slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734)- Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of African descent.

Muslim 3901- Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112- A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743)- Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637)-"The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid,'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?'When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said,'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?'I said,'Yes.'He said,'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really"wives,"since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Ifeann:


I have made no claims, I have only provided you with the actions of your prophet in the top 2 sahih hadiths (bakhari and Muslim) as well as verses from quran with the interpretation from your scholars. I have my opinions and have I said them as honest as possible.

I have given u their translations from classical Arabic to 21st century English, but you claim your own scholars misinterpreted/ mistranslated it, but I posit you are the one who wants to dilute and reinterpret the quran even tho your god has said it is clear and easy to understand and the commands are for all time.

If your god is all knowing how come commands for slavery was given in several verses, including breeding them while infact Today slavery is illegal in most of the world except in Islamic countries.
Qatar has major slavery issues and dubia which treat the dark Arab race as subhuman. Tho it is not wide spread due to human rights groups and the dominance of the largely christian populated western world governements that keep the Muslims in check. I have given u so many verses translated by your sources. I won't tell you everything, read your quran and the bible(NT).

From my discussions with you I sense you have a conscience, can u sleep with a 9year old child..my guess will be NO because it is NOT moral, yet a man u emulate did it.


You keep telling me Mohammed brought laws for this world. That's funny, this is one of the reasons we know Mohammed is a false prophet because the Holy Bible tells us we are NOT of THIS world.
Do you know why there is separation of church and state, why there are NO christain countries. Because the church leading states as a government will soil the integrity of the church. Government and corrupt are inseparable. Christ made it clear to us his kingdom is coming and your quran even says he is coming. Christ told us to beware of false prophets that will come to deceive, these are in the christain Gospels written hunderds of years before Islam, and before the Gnostic "christains", before the Jehovah withness, Mormons, word of faith movement.. These groups come and attack the gospel or attempt to deceive but yet Christianity stands strong.

If you chose to become a christain, a true christain doing Gods work, you will be insulted, persecuted and even killed like it is done in the middle east.. We expect this as christians because it is said in our Bible. I have been insulted here by Muslims over and over again. But I remember it is alread said in the bible in Matt. 10:25-26, " If they have called the Master Beelzebub, how much more shall they call His household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Do u want us to discuss someother issue because I am bored of the killings in Islam as a topic.

You said you didn't make claims but yet in few paragraphs away you make a claim that Muhammad and other Christian faith which you don't believe in came to attack christains. May be what we refer to as claim is different. I may not have gotten what you interpreted claim to mean but I think you can understand what I meant by you making claims.

Maybe I missed the part where you gave an interpretation by a scholar in Islam. Kindly refer me to the scholar's interpretation again.

Translation and interpretation to me meant two different things. Why you used both interchangeably in you second paragraph is not so clear.

When you mentioned conscience and all sort, I think you expect me to use my common sense to reason my way out of Islam. Exactly why I try as much as possible to avoid quoting the Qur’an, hadith and even the bible in my discussions.

The discussion doesn't have a goal again, that may be the reason why you are bored. We keep jumping from one topic to another. I think I warned against that earlier.

I don't really see the point of your last paragraph, because as much as we have muslims who abuses, we also have christains who do. And I don't remember using any abusive word while discussing with you.

Since you are bored, I feel we will meet to discuss other issues some other time if God wills. Shalom.

@ifeann

Bukhari (62:137)- An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432)- Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about Reproduction interruptus.

That muslims can keep slaves....... Yes.
That muslims can have sex with them....... Yes
But I wonder how you read those hadiths and arrived at rape.
I think it will be better for you to post the hadith instead of your own summary.

ypeace:


You said you didn't make claims but yet in few paragraphs away you make a claim that Muhammad and other Christian faith which you don't believe in came to attack christains. May be what we refer to as claim is different. I may not have gotten what you interpreted claim to mean but I think you can understand what I meant by you making claims.

Maybe I missed the part where you gave an interpretation by a scholar in Islam. Kindly refer me to the scholar's interpretation again.

Translation and interpretation to me meant two different things. Why you used both interchangeably in you second paragraph is not so clear.

When you mentioned conscience and all sort, I think you expect me to use my common sense to reason my way out of Islam. Exactly why I try as much as possible to avoid quoting the Qur’an, hadith and even the bible in my discussions.

The discussion doesn't have a goal again, that may be the reason why you are bored. We keep jumping from one topic to another. I think I warned against that earlier.

I don't really see the point of your last paragraph, because as much as we have muslims who abuses, we also have christains who do. And I don't remember using any abusive word while discussing with you.

Since you are bored, I feel we will meet to discuss other issues some other time if God wills. Shalom.

Didn't our discussion start in this topic
https://www.nairaland.com/2052606/understanding-beautiful-verse-muslims-love
(Or did I confuse you for someone else, sorry if I did because I am chatting with a lot of Muslims.)

And where I gave this interpretation by your renowned scholar Ibn Kathir, "Now let's look at a popular early Muslim interpretation;
According to the highly respected Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir- early Qur'anic commentator and Tabi'un, Sayid ibn Jubayr (who lived at the time of ProphetMuhammad, and was a companion ofAisha), had said:
[فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعاً]
.....Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people."
**So early understanding of the verse claims it applies only to shedding the blood of a believer(Muslim). This can be disputed so let's go back to the Qu'ran."
********
If u re read the sentence on misinterpretation and mistranslation u will see their was no mix up.

Some Muslims claim I misinterpreted while in actual fact they should say their scholars mistranslated because I just present their translations in English from 7th century Arabic and then present and analyse the interpretations of your scholars. Am I clear now??

On the issue of insults, you have been very polite. I just wish u could drop the dogma of Islam and read outside your sources to get other opinions. Can't you see all the problems Islam is causing. All the barbaric practises it encourages.

You also said, "... Exactly why I try as much as possible to avoid quoting the Qur’an, hadith and even the bible in my discussions." why would you not confidently quote your sources and my Bible, you have attempted in the past. Get a bible your prophets tell u you can check his stories from the people(Christians and Jews) who got the message before you in (Surah 10:94-95; 16:43). As a Muslim your mind can't understand why Jesus is the son of God and one with the father...and why They are 1 and we Christians worship one God. I can help you try to understand it by Gods grace via emails.

Its up to you.

ypeace:
@ifeann

Bukhari (62:137)- An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432)- Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about Reproduction interruptus.

That muslims can keep slaves....... Yes.
That muslims can have sex with them....... Yes
But I wonder how you read those hadiths and arrived at rape.
I think it will be better for you to post the hadith instead of your own summary.

I am tried of quoting ur sources, I am sure by now u know I know I state facts from your quran and hadiths.

but apparently u like using analogies so let me give u one.

If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths

Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle.

Sahih Muslim 8:29: “IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY) IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE.”

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"


Have u seen it or u just won't accept it. I will give u time to see the full context from your Koran, this is evil and immoral.

Ifeann:


If you noticed I haven't replied you for some days, I have been having some intelligent engagements with smart Muslims, who at least attempt to defend and not throw red herrings and who never bring up the old testament argument because the context explains itself and most smart Muslims know how ancient those verses are, they come to the Jews at a time in a world of anarchy, chaos and rebellion which was thousands of years before Jesus and Jesus came 600 years before Mohammed and because most qu'ran reading Muslims know that your quran affirms the torah and other chapters of the old testament and even the injeel, I can provide verses to prove this... as well as the fact that Christians don't live under the covenant of the old law (OT). If you knew anything about theology you won't be here exposing your ignorance.

Another dodging tactics so your only explanation is that those verses are from Old testament
So God of old tetaments is different from God of new testament Did you think you can hide under one finger?

This will expose you and I hope you will explain how bible did not support slavery

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Ifeann:


I am tried of quoting ur sources, I am sure by now u know I know I state facts from your quran and hadiths.

but apparently u like using analogies so let me give u one.

If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths

Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle.

Sahih Muslim 8:29: “IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY) IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE.”

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"


Have u seen it or u just won't accept it. I will give u time to see the full context from your Koran, this is evil and immoral.

I found this also interesting so you can enjoy it also and give us justification for that
31:7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man.

31:8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

31:9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.

31:10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.

31:11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,

31:12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest…


Moses and his israelite jihadist killed every man, and took the women and children as slaves. They then returned to Moses, but he became upset at them for not killing the women and children as well. Only the young virgins fit to be sex slaves were to be kept alive:

31: 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

31:15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them.

31:16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people.

31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

31:18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. .


Then the bible God discusses how to divide up the spoils of war:

31:25 The Lord said to Moses,

31:26: “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured.

31:27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community.

31:28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats.” .


And below was how it was shared between Moses, his Jihadist and the bible God:


31:32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep,

31:33 72,000 cattle,

31:34 61,000 donkeys

31:35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

31:36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep,

31:37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;

31:38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;

31:39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;

31:40 16,000 virgins, of which the tribute for the Lord was 32. .


BIBLE GOD'S SHARE OF THE WAR BOOTY

Sheep = 675

Cattle = 72

Donkey = 61

All these^^ animals we may guess/assume that he was going to either fry them or roast them. Or what do ya'll think

Virgins = 32

Yazach.....
I think this trend is about Muslims. If u keep digging up those verses of the Bible, you will end up in cycle where both parties will gain nothing. Please dont play the tit for tat thing.

@ifeann.....
I am very sure our discussion started on this trend. You quoted my response here on another trend (about wife beating) like twice. I remember I made a comment that we are not on this trend anymore. So, I quoted your response on that trend here to bring the discussion back here. So about interpretation and translation in relation to the link you provided, I have no idea what you mean since I didnt follow the discussion from the scratch.

About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam. And out of the guidlines of having sex in Islam, rape is not there. Permission to have sex with ones wife is granted in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife.

Permission to kill halal animals id granted in Islam. But we dont kill them anyhow, we follow the procedure for killing animals. In short, permission to do something is not the permission to abuse it in Islam.

ypeace:
Yazach.....
I think this trend is about Muslims. If u keep digging up those verses of the Bible, you will end up in cycle where both parties will gain nothing. Please dont play the tit for tat thing.

@ifeann.....
I am very sure our discussion started on this trend. You quoted my response here on another trend (about wife beating) like twice. I remember I made a comment that we are not on this trend anymore. So, I quoted your response on that trend here to bring the discussion back here. So about interpretation and translation in relation to the link you provided, I have no idea what you mean since I didnt follow the discussion from the scratch.

About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam. And out of the guidlines of having sex in Islam, rape is not there. Permission to have sex with ones wife is granted in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife.

Permission to kill halal animals id granted in Islam. But we dont kill them anyhow, we follow the procedure for killing animals. In short, permission to do something is not the permission to abuse it in Islam.

Here let me quote the analogy I gave which u said was "nice".

" If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths
Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle."


You said, "About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam."

And you also said this " Permission to have sex with ones wife is GRANTED in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife."



If you can't see how evil what you are defending is then you are absolutely brain washed. malvisguy212 can u imagine this.


How can u believe this is moral.
dastranger and usermane do you agree with this.

Ifeann:

Here let me quote the analogy I gave which u said was "nice".

" If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths
Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle."


You said, "About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam."

And you also said this " Permission to have sex with ones wife is GRANTED in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife."



If you can't see how evil what you are defending is then you are absolutely brain washed. malvisguy212 can u imagine this.


How can u believe this is moral.
dastranger and usermane do you agree with this.

No, i don't.

Ifeann:

Here let me quote the analogy I gave which u said was "nice".

" If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths
Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle."


You said, "About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam."

And you also said this " Permission to have sex with ones wife is GRANTED in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife."



If you can't see how evil what you are defending is then you are absolutely brain washed. malvisguy212 can u imagine this.


How can u believe this is moral.
dastranger and usermane do you agree with this.

Koni itumo sii mi.....you see the problem with you is that you believe you know too much... But I'm sorry dear... Like I said I don't like blind arguments

ayinba1:
@ifeann
You missed the point or I assumed wrong. Abraham (pbuh) was a muslim. He practiced Islam, so did Moses, Job, Solomon, Jesus and all the other prophets of God (peace of God be upon them all). My post was therefore very relevant. I was hoping to motivate you to step back and find out information for yourself.

You claimed that Abraham was a Muslim, what where the pillars of Islam that he upheld. please remember to give good reference too.

ayinba1:
@malvis. I have no wish to argue with you. The Quran is free from contradictions, you can take that to the bank.
You quoted from the Quran but you failed to realize that the first man worshiped God alone, associating no partners with Him. It is the same for every prophet or messenger sent to a people. They give the message but as time goes on, people begin to deviate and erect edifices/symbols/images to represent God. This is idolatry. The message becomes polluted with these inventions. The average man wants to see/feel/touch to believe. Allah is The Unseen and absolute belief in Him is the only way.

It's not argument, we need someone to explain to us who the first Muslim is since the writer of the Quran appears to be confused!

For genuine information on this topic, please kindly visit this site- www.islamlies.com

gatiano:
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion — the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (Holy Quran).

You are yet to answer my questions, You seem to want to cause confusion and mischief. You know nothing of Islam and not just that, of christianity too as well.

Your only claims is to lift from what GOD did not reveal and what Muhammad did not say or write.

Do you have the Quran and the hadiths? open to those verses and verify if what was quoted is not true and expose it.

dexmond:
You claimed that Abraham was a Muslim, what where the pillars of Islam that he upheld. please remember to give good reference too.

A muslim is one who submit to God without joining partners in serving Him. That is all it takes to be a Muslim. Abraham fit this description, thus he was a Muslim.

usermane:


A muslim is one who submit to God without joining partners in serving Him. That is all it takes to be a Muslim. Abraham fit this description, thus he was a Muslim.

I submit to God without joining partners in serving him and I am extremely very far from being a muslim.

I think it is out rightly dishonest and disingenuous for muslims to claim that Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and several other great bible characters that lived and died thousands of years before mohammed started his religion were muslims. It's just doesn't make sense. It's an historical fact that islam did not exist before mohammed and attempts being made to redefine islam to make it seem like an older religion by plagiarising biblical characters is the height of pious fraud to me.

PastorKun:


I submit to God without joining partners in serving him and I am extremely very far from being a muslim.

If you truely submit to God and serve him without joining partner, you are a Muslim, whether you admit it or not.

"Muslim" is a name, it is an adjective.

usermane:


If you truely submit to God and serve him without joining partner, you are a Muslim, whether you admit it or not.

"Muslim" is a name, it is an adjective.

What is this one talking about Unlike most muslims on this forum I appreciate the way you defend your beliefs but resorting to this of branding all true believers in one God as muslims leaves me dissapointed. I actually thought you were more honest than your other brethen. Lastly is a name the same thing as an adjective Or you got it mixed up?

@usermane
A compulsory pre condition for being a muslim is to believe in allah and also believe mohammed is his prophet. I neither believe allah or even believe allah is a name or title for God talkless of believing mohammed could possibly be a prophet of the one true God.

i have stated a lot without numbers, that Quran is the only book reveal to Muhammad (saw), and it was the only book from which Muhammad taught from. Hadith on the other is called according to me the infiltration of the devils into Islam, (the white arabs, white/light skinned muslims), they changed everything that Muhammad taught, and they created hadith, the hadith is what is taught majorly to the africans thus you get terror groups and what not. Quran is a perfect book, with it, The whole world will know peace and harmony, the whites hate peace and harmony.

Before they infiltrated Islam, They infiltrated the Gospel too, and they called it christianity, they turned the gospel upside down, if not, Muhammad won't have been needed.
likewise, as this devils(the whites/light skin trickster), infiltrated the gospel and Islam, they also infiltrated the teaching of Moses, the Torah, they turned it upside down, if not, Jesus won't have to be needed.

since the devils mischievouness, trouble making, killing and lieing is not comfounded with them alone, but it affect others everywhere on earth, including the animals and insects, The also infiltrated the hindu religion, buddism and all of the african traditional religion. but how brother? how can this be? even in the bible, it states that when Men (blackmen), learns the way and deeds of the devil (whitemen), he (the blackman) becomes as twice as the devil(whiteman), Elijah Muhammad said (7 times more wicked). if these religion was intact, there won't be any need for the later.

when you see all this religion, you study them, and understand their essense and true meaning without evil intention, You will clearly find out that they are all saying the same thing. example, through the true understanding of the african traditional religion, one would understand the true meaning of the trinity, and also the meaning of Jesus ressurection after 3 days. and etc they are purely mathematical and scientific based on how everything came to be.

the splitting up of all this religions into factions and sects, and each sect claiming, his religion or his ways is the best is what causes bloodshed and wars. the tricknology of the whiteman (devil) is divide and conquer.

dexmond:
Do you have the Quran and the hadiths? open to those verses and verify if what was quoted is not true and expose it.

Ifeann:

Here let me quote the analogy I gave which u said was "nice".

" If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths
Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle."


You said, "About the analogy you gave, thats nice. I will react to it in the context of having sex with slaves ignoring the war part. Permission to have sex with someone does mean it is a must you have sex with them. It means one can do it. And if one wants to, then it must be according to the guidelines of having sex in Islam."

And you also said this " Permission to have sex with ones wife is GRANTED in Islam, this doesn't mean the permission to rape ones wife. It simply mean you follow the procedure of having intercourse with the wife."



If you can't see how evil what you are defending is then you are absolutely brain washed. malvisguy212 can u imagine this.


How can u believe this is moral.
dastranger and usermane do you agree with this.

when you mentioned: 'and probably tied up'. Then I think you dont know what a slave means in Islam. You were adding your own meaning to it.

You read an hadith about permission to have sex with slaves, you added forced sex to the hadith. Because you added it doesn't make it so. Forced sex is going beyond boundaries which is a purnisheable offence.

Sahih al Bukhari book 2, Hadith 29

Att Ar-Rabadha, I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, ' I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names.' The prophet (saw) said to me, 'o Abu Dhar! Did you abuse hi, by calling his mother with bad names? You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah and has put them under your command. So, whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help thm.' ''

we don't even have the right to abuse them verbally talkless of forcing them to sex. Its a meaning you added to the permission.

ypeace:


when you mentioned: 'and probably tied up'. Then I think you dont know what a slave means in Islam. You were adding your own meaning to it.

You read an hadith about permission to have sex with slaves, you added forced sex to the hadith. Because you added it doesn't make it so. Forced sex is going nibeyond boundaries which is a purnisheable offence.

Sahih al Bukhari book 2, Hadith 29

Att Ar-Rabadha, I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, ' I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names.' The prophet (saw) said to me, 'o Abu Dhar! Did you abuse hi, by calling his mother with bad names? You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah and has put them under your command. So, whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help thm.' ''

we don't even have the right to abuse them verbally talkless of forcing them to sex. Its a meaning you added to the permission.

You better leave that girl alone, she'll twist and reframe everything to her own understanding

dastranger:

You better leave that girl alone, she'll twist and reframe everything to her own understanding

Jazakumullahu Khairan bro. May God guide us all right.

ypeace:

Jazakumullahu Khairan bro. May God guide us all right.

Wa iyyak bro.... Amiin

PastorKun:
@usermane
A compulsory pre condition for being a muslim is to believe in allah and also believe mohammed is his prophet.

You don't need to believe in Muhammad or Quran to be a Muslim. Haven't you read these verse of the Qur'an?

Qur'an 5:47
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Qur'an 3:113
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate

Qur'an 2:62
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

I neither believe allah or even believe allah is a name or title for God talkless of believing mohammed could possibly be a prophet of the one true God.

If you do not believe the God of heaven and earth is the author of Qur'an, that is a different story. But till date, Arab Jews and Christians refer to God as Allah; http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

gatiano, i can't relate with you at all. If you claim not to believe in Hadith, why don't you ever visit Islam section to educate the Muslims there?

I need immediate response please.