dsquare33:
The value system of the entire human race is highly distorted for one reason because the church leadership that is suppose to be the beacon of moral values through the 'truth' has left their first estate,they have left the word of God to be serving tables.Acts 6vs2.It is only when the leadership of the church goes back to her first love will 'normallcy' return to the society. Inaddition we should not forget that we are in the last days, the spirit of lawlessness is already at work,and it will always abound until rapture.

plaetton:
Excellent post op.
But you know where my own bias lies.

It is kind of ironic that you used a scriptural reference to back up your theme.
The irony here is the false and distorted notion of trying to use the very source of a problem as the only solution.
I do not blame you though for this error.

With Nigeria in mind, I blame distorted scriptures of distorted religions of a distorted history for Nigerias degenerate and fast eroding value systems.

Just take a look at the front page of this religious section at any given time, and you will get an idea of the kind ideals and value systems that pervade and dominate our society.

Oluwason:


I agree with u even on the distorted religion playing a major role in the Nigeria's value system, bt I strongly diagree with u that scriptures cant be relevant in these case even used as a solution. For the fact that many have miscontrued, misappropraite and misrepresent it doesnt change the truth of what the scriptures really teaches. I advice maybe u closely look at the scriptures as concerning what it says on many issues before u draw ur inference(s).

I have been seeing some of ur post (many of them seems reasonable), bt for the fact that u probably have phobia for the scriptures anything that relate to it u tend to throw away or discard to tally.

Jesus loves u bro, give Him a chance in ur life, peace.

plaetton:

The problem with scripture is that it is mostly quoted without proper context.
For example, pauls letters to the corinthians is just that : A letter expressing his own personal and biased views on a number of issues that were relevant to his personal ambitions.
They were not universal truths by any stretch.

Also, within such nebulous scriptures, anyone can find support and justification for just about any act or behavior, good or bad.
Therefore, scriptures cannot be suitable as a universal arbiter of human affairs and interactions.

And by your last statement, I consider it an insult to insist that a mythical palestinian of the first century loves me.
My own African culture is rich with mythical figures from which to construct and hold high my self-identity.

Emancipate your self from mental slavery, my dear friend.

plaetton:
Excellent post op.
But you know where my own bias lies.

It is kind of ironic that you used a scriptural reference to back up your theme.
The irony here is the false and distorted notion of trying to use the very source of a problem as the only solution.
I do not blame you though for this error.

With Nigeria in mind, I blame distorted scriptures of distorted religions of a distorted history for Nigerias degenerate and fast eroding value systems.

Just take a look at the front page of this religious section at any given time, and you will get an idea of the kind ideals and value systems that pervade and dominate our society.

PastorOluT:
It seems a couple of prowlers broke into a department store in a large city. They succesfully entered the store, stayed long enough to do what they came to do, and escaped unnoticed. What is unusual about the story is what these fellows did. They took nothing, absolutely nothing, no merchandize was stolen, no items were removed, but what they did was ridiculous.

Instead of stealing anything they changed the cost of everything, price tags were swapped, values were exchanged. These clever pranksters took the tag off a $395.00 camera and stuck it on a $5.00 box of stationery. The $5.95 on a paperback book was removed and placed on an outboard motor, they repriced everything in the store.

Crazy? You bet, but the craziest part of the story took place the next morning. The store opened as usual, employee went to work, customers began to shop, the placed function as normal for four hours before anyone noticed what had happened. Four hours! Some people got great bergains, other got fleeced, for four solid hours no one noticed that all the values had been swapped.

Hard to believe! Its shouldn't be-we see the same thing happening every day. We are deluged by a distorted value system, we see the most valueable things in our lives peddled for pennies, and we see the most cheapest smut go for millions.

The examples are abundant and besetting, here are a few:

The sales man who defended his illegal pratices by saying, "Let's not confuse business with ethics."

The father who confessed to the murder of his twelve year old daughter. The reason he killed her? She refused to go to bed with him.

The politicians who stole billions meant for the nation thereby impoverishing it, also causing chaos in some regions in order to be able to continue stealing.

Why do we do what we do? Why do we take blantant black and white and paint it grey? Why are priceless mores trashed while senseless standards are obeyed? What causes us to elevate the body and degrade the souls? What causes us to pamper the skin why we degrade the heart?

Our values are messed up, someone broke into the store and exchanged all the price tags. Thrills are going for top dollar and the value of human soul is at an all time low.

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life [ in the eternal kingdom of God]? For what can a man give as an exchange ( a compensation, a ransom, in return) for his [blessed] life [ in the eternal kingdom of God]?

Mark 6:36-37 Amplified bible

stay blessed and remain rapturable

plaetton:

The problem with scripture is that it is mostly quoted without proper context.
For example, pauls letters to the corinthians is just that : A letter expressing his own personal and biased views on a number of issues that were relevant to his personal ambitions.
They were not universal truths by any stretch.

Also, within such nebulous scriptures, anyone can find support and justification for just about any act or behavior, good or bad.
Therefore, scriptures cannot be suitable as a universal arbiter of human affairs and interactions.

And by your last statement, I consider it an insult to insist that a mythical palestinian of the first century loves me.
My own African culture is rich with mythical figures from which to construct and hold high my self-identity.

Emancipate your self from mental slavery, my dear friend.

Kay17:


Doesn't free will include the power to alter value systems?

PastorOluT:


Freewill doesn't in any way alter the value system, u have to understand the value placed on things goes beyond right or wrong cos I know that where u going to.

Also know that when there is no value on things, or concept of right or wrong, then life becomes meaningless.

Kay17:


So what is freewill to a layman like me. Initially, freewill appears as a free reign and full control of my life and destiny (note I said destiny). By extension, includes my concepts on good and evil/right and wrong. But Christians say no, that free will isn't a free reign. You people say I am unable to create my own pyramid of values, I cannot serve whatever God I wish to serve, I cannot choose my destiny or alter the direction it goes, I cannot rebel in my freedom, I cannot live as long as I desire! What then is this free will you talk about that has the most little degree of freedom?!

Kay17:


So what is freewill to a layman like me. Initially, freewill appears as a free reign and full control of my life and destiny (note I said destiny). By extension, includes my concepts on good and evil/right and wrong. But Christians say no, that free will isn't a free reign. You people say I am unable to create my own pyramid of values, I cannot serve whatever God I wish to serve, I cannot choose my destiny or alter the direction it goes, I cannot rebel in my freedom, I cannot live as long as I desire! What then is this free will you talk about that has the most little degree of freedom?!

PastorOluT:


Nobody is saying u can't express urself whichever way u wanted, in a fact u can n nothing will stop u. But remember, even in earthly society there are rules n regulation which if u go against u will be punished just as if those prowlers were caught. So also if u use ur will against the things God had warned against, u will definitely have ur way but there will always be consequences.

I think that is simple enough to comprehend.

Oluwason:


I think u misunderstand what freewill means, also freewill is never d same as free reign.

Freewill simply means exerting ur will in decision making without any constraint. Now this never meant doing that without consequences, as it remains u have a freewill to exert ur decision on anything with any restraint but that does not mean u wont be held for ur actions. Or ow do u think the world would be with freewill=free reign?

Kay17:


Now if there are overarching and superseding authorities over me namely the State and God why then call it freewill?! isnt that an abuse of language? if freewill doesn't mean all that i mentioned why falsely paint my actions as such. I know fully well that in Christian theology, man is held responsible for his actions on the basis of free will

PastorOluT:


U are misconstrueing freewill n giving it ur own definition, just as oluwason said, it is the ability to 'exert ur will in decision making without any constraint'. This does nt in any way suggest u are immune or obliterated from the consequences of those actions.

U have the freedom and power to ur actions, bt for every decision n action comes with implications which will either be positive or negative.

NB Maybe u should change ur thought on what freewill really is n base ur argument on something else. I think this has been the problem from onset, the misconception of freewill.

Kay17:


I don't disagree that our choices and actions have natural occurring consequences, if fact when we makes choices, we accept the consequences. But your idea of freewill does not allow me to choose the value system I want and take the consequences I meet with it.

plaetton:

The problem with scripture is that it is mostly quoted without proper context.
For example, pauls letters to the corinthians is just that : A letter expressing his own personal and biased views on a number of issues that were relevant to his personal ambitions.
They were not universal truths by any stretch.

Also, within such nebulous scriptures, anyone can find support and justification for just about any act or behavior, good or bad.
Therefore, scriptures cannot be suitable as a universal arbiter of human affairs and interactions.

And by your last statement, I consider it an insult to insist that a mythical palestinian of the first century loves me.
My own African culture is rich with mythical figures from which to construct and hold high my self-identity.

Emancipate your self from mental slavery, my dear friend.

PastorOluT:


Smile, just admit u are wrong about ur assumption of freewill instead of going back n forth. U said freewill meant free reign n I have showed u otherwise, so what are u still gripping about?

Kay17:


I never dragged the issue of natural consequences with you, my concern was the ability to choose whatever value system one wanted. I was concerned with the content and extent of freewill.

PastorOluT:


Oga u are still saying the same thing, everyone is entirely free to choose his own value system, bt when the said values system affects the majority then there is a problem. The truth is that no matter ow u see it, man is a relational being n can't live n act alone, so one way all the other his freewill will always affect others.

Take for instance a man in a society who is always going against the norm in the society will definitely paint his society in a bad light even if he do not see anything wrong with his actions. Of a truth, value system goes beyond an individual cos I as said earlier on man is a relational being.

We can not deny the fact that there are some norms in a society. Ok lets take another example, u don't see anything wrong with having sex with a girl of 16 yrs old or below in as much as she consent to the act, but the norm of the society says that is wrong n punishable. Now cos u do not see anything wrong with that does nt change the fact that when caught u will be prosecuted. U see clearly that though u have ur freewill n values, bt cos u are a in a society u are obliged to hold on to the values of the society.

PastorOluT:


Oga u are still saying the same thing, everyone is entirely free to choose his own value system, bt when the said values system affects the majority then there is a problem. The truth is that no matter ow u see it, man is a relational being n can't live n act alone, so one way or the other his freewill will always affect others.

Take for instance a man in a society who is always going against the norm in the society will definitely paint his society in a bad light even if he do not see anything wrong with his actions. Of a truth, value system goes beyond an individual cos as I said earlier on man is a relational being.

We can not deny the fact that there are some norms in a society. Ok lets take another example, u don't see anything wrong with having sex with a girl of 16 yrs old or below in as much as she consent to the act, but the norm of the society says that is wrong n punishable. Now cos u do not see anything wrong with that does nt change the fact that when caught u will be prosecuted. U see clearly that though u have ur freewill n values, bt cos u are a in a society u are obliged to hold on to the values of the society.

Kay17:


Good you are clearer on the point of freewill. Now if a man chooses any value system he wishes to have and a social group like Christians have theirs; who are you then, to elevate the Christians' value system over the man's? At least both are value systems and have similar status to the respective users, both are valid to the users. What is the point of judging people in accordance to one's value system when they dont recognize it at all?!

PastorOluT:


U still dont get do u? Where did d value system (right n acceptable) comes from?

Kay17:


I can easily say from the person making the value judgment. Based on his own uniquely evolved concepts of right and wrong, and his r her experience

Kay17:
@pastorolut

So you think there is only value system.

PastorOluT:


Qua? Only value system, I dont get?