lawani:
When talking of Obatala, that is totally prehistoric. The new Oduduwa in Ife came recently and the Moremi story must have happened in one of the hundreds of old Ifes that existed before the founding of Offa as Moremi is the matron deity of Offa. After Obatala were people like Orunmila with his own dynasty in Ife, later the new Oduduwa who could not have met Orunmila not to talk of Obatala on the ground. We may be talking of hundreds of thousands of years of history, maybe billlions of years. There are various place names in Ifa which some say corresponds to places like Australia, West Indies and etc.

Nah, u got it all messed up bro. I used to be of this opinion too. Many tales using names like "orunmila" "Obatala" are simple reconstructions of some long historical event to explain some spiritual stuffs

When we speak pure history, Obatala was the opposer of Oduduwa around the 12th century. .not even 9th century

lawani:


There were various Ifes from the beginning of the world to date. Do not take tradition lightly. The first Ife was founded by Obatala and scientifically that might be hundreds of thousands of years ago at least if not millions. How he came to be domiciled at Iranje is what I don't understand as I am not an Awo. How Ogun who led the team that landed on Earth domiciled at Ire, I do not know but Obatala was father of all. Various Obas of many ancient Ifes would have been incarnations of Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Orunmila, though I see all orisa as manifesting a special department of Obatala who is father or leader of all. All of them were also in the team that landed on Earth with civilization. Then the Ifa corpus is muddled up with cross accounts of different orisas incarnated in different places at different times. Obatala as male then as female, the last Sango was the Alaafin who ruled in the 15th century while the first one was part of the team that founded Ife, Duro Ladipo was Sango in his own right too. There have been various Oguns as well. However on the overall there was no struggle between the first Obatala and Oduduwa and it seems somehow apparent that the pre Oduduwa dynasty among the Yoruba had Orunmila on top of it. Prior to that it might be Ogun, then Obatala, I am not sure though bu the male Oduduwa who arrived recently is not their mate, the original Oduduwa that came with the orisas was a woman

With all this I can see that you are even confused with the whole thing. .its normal, I've been there.

In one tale, Ogun is son and heir of Oduduwa, in another he is the one that led Orisha to earth(many more still exist). When you look at both carefully you realize one is Cosmology the other is history

Oduduwa is not even a prominent orisa, the new Oduduwa that founded the new dynasty was a father figure like Awolowo, not our progenitor in reality.To compare him to Ogun will be sacrilegious. He does not even have a day of the week named after him, so he was not important until recently. From Ifa verses, there was a female Obatala, then a male one. So Obatala infact was not exclusively male or female but the society depicts him as a father. There have been very many Oguns. The Oba of Benin, Ogun Ewuare also took the name. There were others Ajero, Alara, Onikola, Makinde and many others. It was the Alara that liked dogmeat and he is why dogs are sacrificed to Ogun and so on.

macof:


With all this I can see that you are even confused with the whole thing. .its normal, I've been there.

In one tale, Ogun is son and heir of Oduduwa, in another he is the one that led Orisha to earth(many more still exist). When you look at both carefully you realize one is Cosmology the other is history

macof:


Ah yes!! Oramakin is what Ilaje call him. . Anything to do with Oranfe Onile?

But I still don't get something, Obamakin was king of Ugbo at Ife then later at present ondo state but what about his role as second Olufe?

'Ora' like 'Elu' is a prefix I've yet to unravel though I have made a little progress on the latter.

Obamakin and Obatala according to my findings were said to have been brothers with Obamakin being the younger one.

Maybe he became an Ooni for a short period and led his folks out of Ife or maybe we have two different Obamakins? As we have two different Oguns?

I have come to realize, after Oduduwa, Obatala's line took over the throne starting with Osangangan Obamakin to Obalufon the second till Oranmiyan came to take the throne by use of force again like his father did the first time.

Obamakin to Obalufon the second are known to identify with Obatala and regarded as his offsprings/relatives.

*edited*

lawani:


There were various Ifes from the beginning of the world to date. Do not take tradition lightly. The first Ife was founded by Obatala and scientifically that might be hundreds of thousands of years ago at least if not millions. How he came to be domiciled at Iranje is what I don't understand as I am not an Awo. How Ogun who led the team that landed on Earth domiciled at Ire, I do not know but Obatala was father of all. Various Obas of many ancient Ifes would have been incarnations of Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Orunmila, though I see all orisa as manifesting a special department of Obatala who is father or leader of all. All of them were also in the team that landed on Earth with civilization. Then the Ifa corpus is muddled up with cross accounts of different orisas incarnated in different places at different times. Obatala as male then as female, the last Sango was the Alaafin who ruled in the 15th century while the first one was part of the team that founded Ife, Duro Ladipo was Sango in his own right too. There have been various Oguns as well. However on the overall there was no struggle between the first Obatala and Oduduwa and it seems somehow apparent that the pre Oduduwa dynasty among the Yoruba had Orunmila on top of it. Prior to that it might be Ogun, then Obatala, I am not sure though bu the male Oduduwa who arrived recently is not their mate, the original Oduduwa that came with the orisas was a woman

You have simply let myth and allegories of Ifa confuse you. There's no need to stretch your mind over a thesis that holds no water.

There was no re-incarnation, neither did Obatala/Odudwa exist many times over.

It is simple: Ifa carries myth and allegories to interprete matters but it also carries pure historical facts that can lead to ground breaking research success if followed.

Would you also say Orunmila was a deity since Ifa at certain points depicts him as such and also say Orunmila lived many times over?

lawani:
Oduduwa is not even a prominent orisa, the new Oduduwa that founded the new dynasty was a father figure like Awolowo, not our progenitor in reality.To compare him to Ogun will be sacrilegious. He does not even have a day of the week named after him, so he was not important until recently. From Ifa verses, there was a female Obatala, then a male one. So Obatala infact was not exclusively male or female but the society depicts him as a father. There have been very many Oguns. The Oba of Benin, Ogun Ewuare also took the name. There were others Ajero, Alara, Onikola, Makinde and many others. It was the Alara that liked dogmeat and he is why dogs are sacrificed to Ogun and so on.

The emboldened is why you should not work yourself up over something you have little grasp of.

Obatala being regarded as either sex was more of allegory than actuality.

Now, the reason Ifa depicted Obatala as female s few times was actually in reference to Yeemo and the facf that Obatala initiated into Aje group.

He's referred to as BabaYeye because of his wife who was powerful and one of the first Aje. You cannot revere or adhere to Obatala in isolation, you do so with the wife in the picture. And they're at times interchanged for each other - they were/are one; one couldn't function without the other.

9jacrip:


The emboldened is why you should not work yourself up over something you have little grasp of.

Obatala being regarded as either sex was more of allegory than actuality.

Now, the reason Ifa depicted Obatala as female s few times was actually in reference to Yeemo (Yeyemoolu) and the facf that Obatala initiated into Aje group.

He's referred to as BabaYeye because of his wife who was powerful and one of the first Aje. You cannot revere or adhere to Obatala in isolation, you do so with the wife in the picture. And they're at times interchanged for each other - they were/are one; one couldn't function without the other.

You are saying I should not work myself up on something or dwell on it when that is the only way of being illuminated. I may not be an Awo but I have been studying these things as well and I can also offer insights. I believe there was indeed a female Obatala, probably the first Obatala was female. Why else would they put such in the corpus? But Obatala is regarded as a Father today. The first Oduduwa was a female as well but now the Oduduwa we know is regarded as a father. All is intertwined but it is all supposed to guide us.

lawani:
You are saying I should not work myself up on something or dwell on it when that is the only way of being illuminated. I may not be an Awo but I have been studying these things as well and I can also offer insights. I believe there was indeed a female Obatala, probably the first Obatala was female. Why else would they put such in the corpus? But Obatala is regarded as a Father today. The first Oduduwa was a female as well but now the Oduduwa we know is regarded as a father. All is intertwined but it is all supposed to guide us.

You're not the latter yet you want to derive the former? How's that possible?

The corpus, as said before has two sides to it. Myths and historical facts/pointers. Apart from the Oduduwa and Obatala who lived in Ife at a period dated to be 10th C, every other illustrations are mere conjectures to explain situations.

It is like saying the Osun who gave birth to Esu in Odu Osetura reincarnated to marry Sango in the 15tg C. One is to explain situation, one is an hostorical fact/pointer.

Obatala's duality is because of his wife. You will never find Obatala's figure to be one - compulsorily two; male and female. The female is Yeemo who also wears white like her man.

9jacrip:



'Ora' like 'Elu' is a prefix I've yet to unravel though I have made a little progress on the latter.

Obamakin and Obatala according to my findings were said to have been brothers with Obamakin being the younger one.

Maybe he became an Ooni for a short period and led his folks out of Ife or maybe we have two different Obamakins? As we have two different Oguns?

I have come to realize, after Oduduwa, Obatala's line took over the throne starting with Osangangan Obamakin to Obalufon the second till Oranmiyan came to take the throne by use of force again like his father did the first time.

Obamakin to Obalufon the second are known to identify with Obatala and regarded as his offsprings/relatives.

*edited*

I have always suspected a connection between Obatala and Obamakin..
There's the thought that Obamakin is same as Obalufon I. .. but wouldn't that be having too many names? Obalufon Ogbogbodirin Osangangan Obamakin

9jacrip:


You're not the latter yet you want to derive the former? How's that possible?

The corpus, as said before has two sides to it. Myths and historical facts/pointers. Apart from the Oduduwa and Obatala who lived in Ife at a period dated to be 10th C, every other illustrations are mere conjectures to explain situations.

It is like saying the Osun who gave birth to Esu in Odu Osetura reincarnated to marry Sango in the 15tg C. One is to explain situation, one is an hostorical fact/pointer.

Obatala's duality is because of his wife. You will never find Obatala's figure to be one - compulsorily two; male and female. The female is Yeemo who also wears white like her man.

We are different in the way we approach these things then. I believe there was an Osun incarnate who gave birth to an Esu incarnate in reality. How far back, I do not know but for it to form part of the corpus, it means something like that happened. I also believe that a group of dare devil ancient astronauts landed on Earth from an human civilization elsewhere in the universe, maybe as soon as Earth became habitable. They were led by Ogun. How far back, we have no mechanism of knowing. If you say Obatala lived in Ife in the 10th century, it means you do not believe the history that he is the most respected of all orisas, the father figure to all and father of all humans.

9jacrip:



Ha LOL!

Obatala, alamorere tin mori omotuntun, jo wa bi wa tun ori wa se.

Bros, I cannot give you proofs since you're not an Obatala initiate.

Esu does not own ase.

Obatala, Alabalase.

He is the one every other deities go to for ase.

Ogun did not make bones bros, his only role was that he paved way for Orisas when coming down to earth and he was war like.

You're mixing these things up.

I hate using online sources for discussions such as these as most writers are surface but google 'Alabalase' or ask your awo.

I am keen to know if there is a complete write up like the Bible where non initiates like myself can educate myself on Ifa.

Are you guys still alive?
Some of you are unto something and some of you guys have got histories all mixed up with allegories...
Obatala, Obamakin were the Chiefs of Ife before Oduduwa arrived with his entourage.

Rilwayne001:


Well, I'm still thinking about the literal meaning of "jewesun" as you noticed up there i.e. 'let the leaf sleep' is not in anyway compatible with Jesus. Perhaps it means "peace", don't you think?

Because they called him Jesus doesn't mean that is his real name. To know the truth, first accept that all the names of people and places in the bible were modified to mask the real truth. And who says Hebrew or Jews in present Israel has real connection to Jesus? They just stole the history from Africa and planted it in the middle-east. They guy wanting to know Jewesun was has enough clue going by the odu. It say he was son of Almighty. Isn't that the same as what Jesus said he was. Another verse says he was son of Ope (Ifa). Ifa is word of Olodumare. So, Ifa is the Word from beginning, and Jewesun was also the Word because the verse says he was son of Ifa.

Oni of Ife spoke about Jewesun in an interview on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lg6YwUL2IU

Check around 54 to 60 min. In fact I will suggest you watch the entire interview because he revealed some deep knowledge of yoruba.

Jewesun literally translates into "Let the leaf sleep" which means "Serenity and Tranquility". That was exactly what Jesus was.

In Oyeku meji, Jewesun was asked to sacrifice a lamb generally and then a goat to Eshu. However, he refused to sacrifice a goat to Eshu but accepted to sacrifice a lamb generally. Since he sacrificed a lamb, then it meant he sacrificed himself since he was referred to as the divine lamb by ifa. So see ifa confirming Jesus' death in his parable. From this, we can also say Jewesun already abolished any killing of animals for sacrifice, even as the ebo are rather intellectual creative symbolism to begin with, not to be taken literally.

On the Imale in odu otura, while Yoruba gave the Muslim the name Imale because of the Mali link thus Imale was worded/corrupted from the word, Mali. However, Imale in Ifa doesn't mean Muslim because that's another thing entirely, not a corrupted word from the word Mali. Lol. Imale in odu Ifa is got from the word, Irunmale which is a combination of Irin and Imale/Umole. Irin should mean righteous, considering elephant (Erin) signifies righteousness while Imale/umole should be related to the earth, that is, "of the earth" or "the light or knowledge of the earth".. So Irunmale/Irunmole together should means "the righteous of the earth or "the righteous knowledge of the earth". That was why Ifa kept talking about the earth whenever it talked about Imale/umole in odu otura. In odu otura, it says "Baba Imale wants to inherit the earth, the earth is the end of the road but the father of all awo is Araba" which means "the father of the earth wanted to inherit the earth which is the end of the road however, the father of all awo is Araba".

Meanwhile, the name Araba itself is one of the names of the one God almighty. Araba means "the mighty/righteous wonder" which is also God's name, just like Orunmila/Ela and Baba Agbonmiregun are also the names of the one God almighty. Meanwhile, All these names are all connected to Ifa knowledge.

Of course, the first Ifa priest was named Orunmila which means wisdom. However, Ela born of virgin woman was also referred to as Orunmila which had always been Ela's role from the beginning. It was just like how Moses, Joshua, Samuel etc were the priests before the arrival of the Messiah (born of a virgin woman) to take over the priesthood role which had always been his role. Thus Ela (born of a virgin woman) came to take over the Orunmila role which had always been his role.

However, after all have been accomplished and Ela left, the priesthood role can't be left vacant of course, thus the Araba title which is meant to head/supervise all the other awos. It's just like the Pope heading/supervising all the priests. Tbh, the Araba title is a good initiative because there are several unscrupulous elements masquerading as awos while doing a lot of atrocities and abomination which includes using Human for sacrifice which Ifa is totally against because ifa is totally against the killing of human for sacrifice to begin with. The point is, with an Araba overseeing all the awos, we would know who's awo or the criminal pretenders. In fact, I once stated that every state should have an aesthetic modern designed IFA building headquarter where all the IFA practitioners would register in the headquarter of each state, thus any unscrupulous criminal pretending to be IFA practitioners doing abominable thing can be easily fished out and dealt with. Basically, an Araba of each state would head this modern IFA headquarter of each state while the Araba of Ife heads all the arabas of the headquarters.

As for Jewesun, he's the same thing as Ela born of a virgin woman because Jewesun is referred to as the only begotten child of Eledumare according to Ifa, just as Ela is also regarded as the only begotten child of Eledumare. Since the begotten child is only one, then Ela and Jewesun is same. That is, a=x.