Deuteronomy 6:4-5 NIV

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.



Genesis 2:24 NIV

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.


Genesis 1:26 NIV

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”



The first verse goes to show that God is one. Not one person but one in unity just like illustrated in the second verse of two people; male and female, coming together to become one!
Hence the one goes to show unity of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The third verse confirms the presence of the Trinity at creation hence there are Three Personalities in one unity or accord.
If man is made up of body, soul and spirit (e.g some people talk to themselves; I.e a soul, body conversation) then our Creator in whose image we are made has a Holy Spirit by which He holds all things in unity in the church and a Son with whom He interacts (like a human body) with the Creation.
The Son interacted most with humanity by coming into the world to show us the Way and by sacrificing His life on the Cross, empower those who believe in Him to live a victorious life here and after.
If a person cannot believe in the oneness of the Triune God, he or she should not bother in believing in the oneness of a married couple! Fact!

I guess this is relative.

Words!

OOOOh rilli??

ayoku777:
I agree with the guy that said your explanation is relative. Because the union between a man and a woman is the same as the union between Christ and His church.

So if you are comparing the union of a man and a woman with the union of the trinity. Then it implies that the church has also being inducted into the "Trinity". Which would be a heresis.

Trinity (three persons in one God) is not scriptural. What the bible teaches is that the Father is God and Jesus is God; and the Father is the God of Jesus.

It is not together that they are God. The Father is the God of Jesus; just as Jesus is our God. And it will be so for all eternity.

Philippians 2:5-11 NIV

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Figure that!

Can we equally use this in backing up polygamy? Since 1+1+1+1=1, then can a man who is married to two or more wives be one in flesh with them them ie 1 +1+1+ 1+............=1? . If you want to prove trinity, try something else

kay1one2:




Philippians 2:5-11 NIV

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Figure that!

This verse proofs that Jesus is also God. Something I didn't deny. But does it change the fact that the Father is equally His God?

Jesus is God; but He also has a God -the Father. That's what I'm making you see. The Father is the God of Jesus.

ayoku777:


This verse proofs that Jesus is also God. Something I didn't deny. But does it change the fact that the Father is equally His God?

Jesus is God; but He also has a God -the Father. That's what I'm making you see. The Father is the God of Jesus.

But the verse also confirms that though Jesus is equal with God, and the Father is above the Son, they are One in Lordship over all!

udatso:
Can we equally use this in backing up polygamy? Since 1+1+1+1=1, then can a man who is married to two or more wives be one in flesh with them them ie 1 +1+1+ 1+............=1? . If you want to prove trinity, try something else

The second verse shows that the original idea for marriage is monogamy!

kay1one2:


The second verse shows that the original idea for marriage is monogamy!

Deu 21:15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love,

kay1one2:


But the verse also confirms that though Jesus is equal with God, and the Father is above the Son, they are One in Lordship over all!

Jesus is not equal in authority with the Father, and will never be.

Equality in divinity (or humanity) is not equality in authority.

Let me explain.

As a man, you're equal in humanity with your father; everything he has bodily or humanly speaking, you also have. But you are not equal to him in authority. As your father, you're subject to him.

Same thing with angels. In angelic divinity all angels are equals, because they are all angels. Even so, in authority they are not. There are arch angels, Cherubs, Seraphs and regular angels. And they are not equal in authority.

Same thing here. The Father is God and Jesus is God. Jesus is equal in divinity with the Father. Even so, in authority they are not equals. Jesus is not the Father's equal in authority.

The Father is greater than Jesus;

John 14v28 - ...for my Father is greater than I.

The Father is the God of Jesus (even in His resurrected, glorified state);

Rev 3v12 -Him that overcometh, I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon Him my new name.

And Jesus is subject to the Father and will be forever;

1Cor 15v28 -And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, the shall the Son also Himself be sublect unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus is God, but He has a God. Jesus is not equal in authority to the Father. Not now, not ever. You can say Jesus is the number two man in the universe.

I'm not saying that Jesus is not God or that He is not above all else except the Father. I'm just saying He has a God too. One He would be subject to for eternity.

Its not together that Jesus and the Father are God, like voltron. Three persons in one God is not true. Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Father is the God of Jesus.

@ Ayoku777
I noticed you didn't mention anything about the Holy Spirit. So, who is the Holy Spirit? Is he God? Keep in mind the verse below;

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Processor01:

I noticed you didn't mention anything about the Holy Spirit. So, who is the Holy Spirit? Is he God? Keep in mind the verse below;

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

About the Holy Spirit being God, I'm yet to find a verse that categorically calls Him God. But even if He is; that won't change the fact that they are not equals.

How does the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit prove that they are equal in authority? You don't establish doctrine with speculations but with scripture.

What is clear in scripture is that, the Father is the God of Jesus; and Jesus will be subject to Him for eternity; just as we will be subject to Jesus.

That is plain scriptural truth, that can't be argued with.

Rilwayne001:


Deu 21:15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love,

Even David had more than one wife at a point in time. As well as Solomon.

Matthew 19:8-9 NIV

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Polygamy was allowed in the old Testament because of the weakness of the human flesh! Christ came to restore mankind to the way he once was which is free from sin and monogamous marriages. Thats why polygamy isn't welcome in Christiandom. The original plan is the point!

ayoku777:


Jesus is not equal in authority with the Father, and will never be.

Equality in divinity (or humanity) is not equality in authority.

Let me explain.

As a man, you're equal in humanity with your father; everything he has bodily or humanly speaking, you also have. But you are not equal to him in authority. As your father, you're subject to him.

Same thing with angels. In angelic divinity all angels are equals, because they are all angels. Even so, in authority they are not. There are arch angels, Cherubs, Seraphs and regular angels. And they are not equal in authority.

Same thing here. The Father is God and Jesus is God. Jesus is equal in divinity with the Father. Even so, in authority they are not equals. Jesus is not the Father's equal in authority.

The Father is greater than Jesus;

John 14v28 - ...for my Father is greater than I.

The Father is the God of Jesus (even in His resurrected, glorified state);

Rev 3v12 -Him that overcometh, I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon Him my new name.

And Jesus is subject to the Father and will be forever;

1Cor 15v28 -And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, the shall the Son also Himself be sublect unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus is God, but He has a God. Jesus is not equal in authority to the Father. Not now, not ever. You can say Jesus is the number two man in the universe.

I'm not saying that Jesus is not God or that He is not above all else except the Father. I'm just saying He has a God too. One He would be subject to for eternity.

Its not together that Jesus and the Father are God, like voltron. Three persons in one God is not true. Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Father is the God of Jesus.

You do know that in a marriage, the couple are taken to be equal to each other although the wife willingly submits to the husband. Now check the word heir. Legally it gives me privileges equal to the co-signer but morally still puts me below the owner of the property in question. Jesus called God the Father His Father but that doesn't mean He doesn't realise that God is above Him although God the Father made Him one with Himself!

kay1one2:


You do know that in a marriage, the couple are taken to be equal to each other although the wife willingly submits to the husband. Now check the word heir. Legally it gives me privileges equal to the co-signer but morally still puts me below the owner of the property in question. Jesus called God the Father His Father but that doesn't mean He doesn't realise that God is above Him although God the Father made Him one with Himself!

Calling someone "my God" is a statement of fact, not just humility. When we call Jesus "our God" we are not just being humble. Jesus is our God. When Jesus calls the Father "my God" its because the Father is His God.

And just as the Father and the Son are one. The Father and the Son has also made the church one in them.

John 17v21 -That they all may be one; as thou! Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US (Godhead): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

That we have been made one in the Godhead just as the Father and Son are one, doesn't make us equal to Jesus or the Father.

I think we both agree that the Father is the God of Jesus. And that's all I'm just trying to point out.

If the Father is the God of Jesus (and He is, according to several scriptures) then the idea that:

Father + Son + Holy Spirit = God

Is wrong.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

kay1one2:


Even David had more than one wife at a point in time. As well as Solomon.

Matthew 19:8-9 NIV

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Polygamy was allowed in the old Testament because of the weakness of the human flesh! Christ came to restore mankind to the way he once was which is free from sin and monogamous marriages. Thats why polygamy isn't welcome in Christiandom. The original plan is the point!

okay

ayoku777:


Calling someone "my God" is a statement of fact, not just humility. When we call Jesus "our God" we are not just being humble. Jesus is our God. When Jesus calls the Father "my God" its because the Father is His God.

And just as the Father and the Son are one. The Father and the Son has also made the church one in them.

John 17v21 -That they all may be one; as thou! Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US (Godhead): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

That we have been made one in the Godhead just as the Father and Son are one, doesn't make us equal to Jesus or the Father.

I think we both agree that the Father is the God of Jesus. And that's all I'm just trying to point out.

If the Father is the God of Jesus (and He is, according to several scriptures) then the idea that:

Father + Son + Holy Spirit = God

Is wrong.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

So your family isn't one although you rightly know you are below your father? !

kay1one2:


You do know that in a marriage, the couple are taken to be equal to each other although the wife willingly submits to the husband. Now check the word heir. Legally it gives me privileges equal to the co-signer but morally still puts me below the owner of the property in question. Jesus called God the Father His Father but that doesn't mean He doesn't realise that God is above Him although God the Father made Him one with Himself!

Too bad the generality of Christians take it literally

Just aksin,
If Jesus is God and Father is His God, are they our Gods? And isn't that polytheism?

ayoku777:



I'm not saying that Jesus is not God or that He is not above all else except the Father. I'm just saying He has a God too. One He would be subject to for eternity.

Its not together that Jesus and the Father are God, like voltron. Three persons in one God is not true. Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Father is the God of Jesus.

vooks:
Just aksin,
If Jesus is God and Father is His God, are they our Gods? And isn't that polytheism?

You're very right. Elohim in hebrew has always been primarily plural, not a singular term.

The oneness of the Godhead has never been numerical but rather oneness in power, purpose and principles.

Remember that just as the Father and the Son are one (John 10v30); the Father and the Son and the church are also now one (John 17v21).

Is that oneness numerical? Or oneness in power, purpose and principles? Of course its the latter.

So yes, Jesus is God and the Father is God. And the Father is the God of Jesus. That is more than one God.

Let me ask you this.

What is the implication of the Father being called "MostHigh God"?

The Father being called "MostHigh God" implies there are other Gods who are not on the same level of authority with Him. Namely Jesus; and the Church through the Spirit.

I don't know where the idea crept into the church that saying we have more than one God is heresis; when many scriptures show that Jesus is the God with a God.

The Father is called Elohim Elohim (God of Gods). And "Elohim Elohim" does not mean God of false gods.

Psalm 136v2 -O give thanks unto God of gods (Elohim Elohim): for His mercy endureth forever.

So yes; Elohim has always been plural. The oneness of the Godhead is not numerical.

Shalom.

So,
Why would you be censured for having other gods? Or that means straying outside the group of Gods making up Elohim?

ayoku777:


You're very right. Elohim in hebrew has always been primarily plural, not a singular term.

The oneness of the Godhead has never been numerical but rather oneness in power, purpose and principles.

Remember that just as the Father and the Son are one (John 10v30); the Father and the Son and the church are also now one (John 17v21).

Is that oneness numerical? Or oneness in power, purpose and principles? Of course its the latter.

So yes, Jesus is God and the Father is God. And the Father s the God of Jesus. That is more than one God.

Let me ask you this.

What is the implication of the Father being called "MostHigh God"?

The Father being called "MostHigh God" implies there are other Gods who are not on the same level of authority with Him. Namely Jesus; and the Church through the Spirit.

I don't know where the idea crept into the church that saying we have more than one God is heresis; when many scriptures show that Jesus is the God with a God.

The Father is called Elohim Elohim (God of Gods). And "Elohim Elohim" does not mean God of false gods.

Psalm 136v2 -O give thanks unto God of gods (Elohim Elohim): for His mercy endureth forever.

So yes; Elohim has always been plural. The oneness of the Godhead is not numerical.

Shalom.

vooks:
So,
Why would you be censured for having other gods? Or that means straying outside the group of Gods making up Elohim?

Good observation; and you've even partly answered your question. But let me just expantiate in my own words.

If by other gods, you mean demons and evil spirits? These are no gods; they are false gods.

I believe to be called "god" (Elohim) you must be begotten of The MostHigh God (El Elyon). Like Jesus and the church are.

Psalm 82v6 -I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Elohims are those born of El Elyon. If you're not born of El Elyon, then you're not an Elohim.

And then secondly; even if those born of El Elyon are called Elohim; that doesn't make them worthy of worship. I can't worship you even though as a child of the MostHigh "Ye are gods".

I believe, and its clear; that in the Godhead (or as I call it -House of El or Yah), we are not on the same level of authority and honour. We are gods but Jesus is our God; and the Father is the God of Jesus.

We may be sons of the MostHigh like Jesus but we are not on the same level of authority with Jesus; we are not worthy of worship like him. Only the Father and Jesus are worthy of the honour of worship.

Also, even Jesus is not on the same level of authority with the Father. Even Jesus was given His authority by the Father. And I also noticed from scripture that both the Holy Spirit and Jesus pray. It is only the Father that prays to no one. He is the MostHigh God -the only God that has no God above Him

So if we are censored from worshipping any other god; it is because only the Father and Jesus are worthy of worship in the Godhead. Not any demon or evil spirit; not even fellow children of the MostHigh who are also called Elohims in scripture.

Oneness in the Godhead or equality in divinity is not equality in authority. I made that point clear earlier.

Shalom

Is it then safe to say Christianity has TWO true Gods?

ayoku777:

Only the Father and Jesus are worthy of the honour of worship.

vooks:
Is it then safe to say Christianity has TWO true Gods?

Technically, and deductively speaking; christianity has two Gods that are worshipped. Jesus and His God and Father; the Father.

But scripturally speaking and according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God.

John 17v3 -And this is eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God; even though Jesus himself is also God (John 1v1).

And looking at it, that is true; because every other person called God are those begotten of the Father.

So the Father is the only true God, or Alpha God, if you will.

Now, Jesus calling the Father, "The only true God"; doesn't make Jesus a false God or a "no god". That will equally be contrary to scripture.

I think it just means the Father is the Alpha God. The God that begat all other Gods; including Jesus.

In summary,
1. Christianity has TWO Gods.
2. Jesus was begotten just like us...he has a beginning


Unresolved
If the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, what kind of God is Jesus?
Was Jesus CREATED?

ayoku777:


Technically, and deductively speaking; christianity has two Gods that are worshipped. Jesus and His God and Father; the Father.

But scripturally speaking and according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God.

John 17v3 -And this is eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God; even though Jesus himself is also God (John 1v1).

And looking at it, that is true; because every other person called God are those begotten of the Father.

So the Father is the only true God, or Alpha God, if you will.

Now, Jesus calling the Father, "The only true God"; doesn't make Jesus a false God or a "no god". That will equally be contrary to scripture.

I think it just means the Father is the Alpha God. The God that begat all other Gods; including Jesus.

ayoku777:


Technically, and deductively speaking; christianity has two Gods that are worshipped. Jesus and His God and Father; the Father.

But scripturally speaking and according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God.

John 17v3 -And this is eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God; even though Jesus himself is also God (John 1v1).

And looking at it, that is true; because every other person called God are those begotten of the Father.

So the Father is the only true God, or Alpha God, if you will.

Now, Jesus calling the Father, "The only true God"; doesn't make Jesus a false God or a "no god". That will equally be contrary to scripture.

I think it just means the Father is the Alpha God. The God that begat all other Gods; including Jesus.

The first scripture quoted clearly states: "hear oh Israel. The Lord your God is one."
Christianity has one God who has a Holy Spirit and a begotten Son; Jesus Christ. The Three persons make up One true God.
Just because you have a body anf spirit with a soul doesn't mean you are three people but one because you all function as one. Where one goes, the other follows.
Please Christianity has only One God.

vooks:
In summary,
1. Christianity has TWO Gods.
2. Jesus was begotten just like us...he has a beginning


Unresolved
If the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, what kind of God is Jesus?
Was Jesus CREATED?

Jesus came from the substance of the Father. All in One same time as God Himself. More like Jesus has always been with the Father from the beginning as a part of Him. We on the other hand were created. We existed from the beginning of time in the mind of the Father but had a period when we were created and brought into being. Jesus however has always being with the Father as a spontaneous product of God's manifestation.

This is what I need Ayoku clarifying

ayoku777:

I think it just means the Father is the Alpha God. The God that begat all other Gods; including Jesus.

kay1one2:


Jesus came from the substance of the Father. All in One same time as God Himself. More like Jesus has always been with the Father from the beginning as a part of Him. We on the other hand were created. We existed from the beginning of time in the mind of the Father but had a period when we were created and brought into being. Jesus however has always being with the Father as a spontaneous product of God's manifestation.

vooks:
In summary,
1. Christianity has TWO Gods.
2. Jesus was begotten just like us...he has a beginning


Unresolved
If the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, what kind of God is Jesus?
Was Jesus CREATED?

Hmmmm.

How will I answer this without it looking like mere semantics?

This is how I understand it.

"Only true God", to me, means "The only God without a God". The Alpha God. The unbegotten God.

Jesus is God but He was begotten; and He has a God.

So to answer your question:

vooks:


If the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, what kind of God is Jesus?

Jesus is the begotten God. The Father is unbegotten and He has no God. Jesus has a God.

vooks:


Was Jesus CREATED?

No, Jesus wasn't created; He was begotten. To be created is different from being begotten.

Jesus was begotten, Angels and man were created. The Father begat Christ and Christ created all things.

Jesus wasn't created.

vooks:
This is what I need Ayoku clarifying

The same way the Word was begotten of the Father is the same way the new creation was begotten of the Word.

So if you want to say "being begotten" means you have existed as long as the person who begat you; then it means that the new creation too has existed as long as the Word.

Because the new creation is begotten of the Word as the Word was begotten of the Father.

Jesus wasn't begotten when He came into the world, He was begotten of the Father at the very beginning.