jayriginal:


Your rant was better than mine.

But anyway yeah, I agree with you. The people aren't bad, the watch tower society tbough are EVIL!

The price of freedom is ostracism and that's worse when you've been born into the cult and your whole life revolves or has been made to revolve the cult.

I feel like I'm gearing up for a confrontation with certain family members. I don't want to be ill-equipped, so the websites and book recommendations are going to be my main focus for the next few weeks.

This shouldn't have to be. This is not of God.

Flytefalls:

Follow me back and we can PM first.

Followed you.

Flytefalls:

I really thought she had. I think she did. Then something happened recently and it meant a family member very close to her decided she couldn't talk to her anymore as it was against bible principles. That person loves my mum, I am certain of this, but now she has 'had to get serious' meaning she must distant herself from my mum. It's so hurtful, my mum has started to recoil into herself .

Haha. That is what religion does. It breaks relationships, bonds and friendships. Because it claims 'my God/Morals/Principles is/are bigger than yours'

That shit almost ruined my family.

Here is the latest Watchtower, the war book of doom.
[img]http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/mp/r1/lp-e/w15/2015/664[/img]

Flytefalls:

Follow me back and we can PM first.

I replied your email.

Flytefalls:


I feel like I'm gearing up for a confrontation with certain family members. I don't want to be ill-equipped, so the websites and book recommendations are going to be my main focus for the next few weeks.

This shouldn't have to be. This is not of God.

If it's core doctrines and practices, you will find lots of ammunition here. Find the exchange between Myjoe and Williams. From page 6, I think.
https://www.nairaland.com/4050/jehovahs-witnesses-only-true-religion#134617

Flytefalls:


I feel like I'm gearing up for a confrontation with certain family members. I don't want to be ill-equipped, so the websites and book recommendations are going to be my main focus for the next few weeks.

This shouldn't have to be. This is not of God.

Permit me to wish you luck once again.

Meanwhile I would avoid trying to confront them. Don't go trying to prove they are in a cult or they are wrong.

Get your hands on those two books. I can send you the PDFs if you like. Someone else has also offered.

People go on the defensive when you confront them and in this case, they are trained to view confrontation as proof that they are on the right path. The best you can do is update yourself and wait for the opportune time which will come in form of a discussion.

You'll enjoy reading Captives of a Concept.

JuanDeDios:

If it's core doctrines and practices, you will find lots of ammunition here. Find the exchange between Myjoe and Williams. From page 6, I think.
https://www.nairaland.com/4050/jehovahs-witnesses-only-true-religion#134617

Lovely! Thank you!

jayriginal:


Permit me to wish you luck once again.

Meanwhile I would avoid trying to confront them. Don't go trying to prove they are in a cult or they are wrong.

Get your hands on those two books. I can send you the PDFs if you like. Someone else has also offered.

People go on the defensive when you confront them and in this case, they are trained to view confrontation as proof that they are on the right path. The best you can do is update yourself and wait for the opportune time which will come in form of a discussion.

You'll enjoy reading Captives of a Concept.

But they are so self righteous . Every time they catch wind of me perhaps going to church or celebrating Christmas, they feel it wise to condescendingly offer me their two (non)cents and then end it with 'I would love to see you in paradise'. Shut uuuuuup!!!

They are incredibly defensive, but we all are I suppose. But they are so well armed. I'm building my own armor, I can make unwanted quips as well as the next well-meaning JW.

You know what, I'm going to request the pdfs from you guys please . I'll follow both of you now!

Flytefalls:

But they are so self righteous . Every time they catch wind of me perhaps going to church or celebrating Christmas, they feel it wise to condescendingly offer me their two (non)cents and then end it with 'I would love to see you in paradise'. Shut uuuuuup!!!

They are incredibly defensive, but we all are I suppose. But they are so well armed. I'm building my own armor, I can make unwanted quips as well as the next well-meaning JW.

You know what, I'm going to request the pdfs from you guys please . I'll follow both of you now!

We should share notes one day.

Anyway I've been using my phone to surf as the internet in my office has been down for a while.

When it gets back up, I'll either mail or upload the files for you. I think I can send you a link for the Ray Franz book. Captives of a Concept is a bit more tricky to obtain but I have it on my computer.


Do a Google search for "Crisis of conscience PDF". Its the first link that pops up.

I'll see how I can get the other one to you.

jayriginal:


We should share notes one day.

Anyway I've been using my phone to surf as the internet in my office has been down for a while.

When it gets back up, I'll either mail or upload the files for you. I think I can send you a link for the Ray Franz book. Captives of a Concept is a bit more tricky to obtain but I have it on my computer.


Do a Google search for "Crisis of conscience PDF". Its the first link that pops up.

I'll see how I can get the other one to you.

I'll do that, didn't have any luck yesterday but I think I was searching for the other one

Papist:

I'm a Catholic and Catholics are only excommunicated for griveous sins. Excommunication simply means you cannot receive the Eucharist without confession. And most excommunications are automatic which means that Catholics themselves will not go to the altar to receive the Eucharist when they know that they have committed a grave sin like adultery. Public excommunications by the bishop or the pope are reserved for hardcore criminals like when the Pope recently announced the excommunication of members of the Italian mafia. Or when high ranking politicians are excommunicated by their bishops for publicly supporting abortion. But the excommunicated people are still allowed to attend Mass and fraternise with other Catholics.

What is ur idea of greveous sin?. Is fornication a greveois sin?
What does the eucharist mean?
What is the biblical reason/basis/source for excommunication by Catholics?

jayriginal:

So getting a higher education is a hindrance right?
You keep making my point.

Why do you keep side stepping my questions?

Flytefalls:

I'll do that, didn't have any luck yesterday but I think I was searching for the other one

The other one is quite difficult to get. This one is easier.

dolphinheart:


Why do you keep side stepping my questions?

Listen, you seem like a nice person. I understand why you would go to great lengths to defend your position. I said higher education is discouraged. You opposed that statement only to unwittingly support it.

I'm not interested in a debate on this matter. When I read the OP, her words struck a chord in me because I could relate and that's why I responded to her.

Do have a nice day Sir.

jayriginal:


The other one is quite difficult to get. This one is easier.

Found it! It was the first to appear hahahahahahaha. I don't think my search included 'pdf' yesterday, but I'm still ashamed of myself for not having tried . Thank you!

@JuanDeDios MyJoe is rapid fire! This thread is a treasure, thank you! His first post was fully loaded, this is some heel arching quality material!

Hey @dolphinheart, have a look at the text below. I do wonder what would happen if one approached an elder sincerely with the same question quoted, and used the watchtowers conflicting quotes to cite their confusion. I wonder if the current understanding of this prophet question is less wonky today? I wonder if these have been removed from the WT archives. I'll wander.

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Prophets?

Yes: "Jehovah God has made known to his anointed ones in advance what these scriptures mean." (WT 31 6/1 p 160)

No: "Jehovah’s people confess no powers of inspiration today" (WT 52 4/15 p253)

Yes: "Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an unprecedented and unparalled scale." (WT 64 6/15)

No: "No, the ‘Watchtower’ is no inspired prophet, but it follows and explains a book of prophecy the predictions in which have proved to be unerring and unfailing until now." (WT 69 1/1 p2)

Yes: "Jehovah has raised up a genuine prophet in our generation. Regardless of how Christendom views or regards this group of anointed witnesses of Jehovah, the time must come, and that shortly, when those making up Christendom, will know that really a ‘prophet’ of Jehovah was among them. (The Nations Shall Know, 1971).

No: "They do not claim infalibility or perfection. Neither are they inspired prophets." (WT 5/15/76 p297)

Yes: "The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom." (Holy Spirit - The Force Behind the Coming New Order, 1976, p 148)

No: "In this regard, however, it must be observed, that the ‘faithful and discrete slave’ was never inspired, never perfect." (WT 3/1/79 p23-4)

Yes: "In behalf of such individuals who at heart seek God’s rule instead of man’s rule, the ‘prophet’ whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class. The members of this class are, like the prophet-priest Jeremiah, wholly dedicated to Jehovah God through Christ, and by the begettal of Jehovah’s holy spirit they have been made part of a ‘chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession'." (WT 10/1/82 p27)

No: "Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets." (Reasoning, 1985, p136)

Yes: "God has a people on earth, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God, Jehovah’s Witnesses." (AW 6/8/86 p9)

No: "Never in these instances, however, did they presume or originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah’. Never did they say ‘These are the words of Jehovah’." (AW 3/22/93)

As I read this OP, I feel pressed down in my spirit because I sensed that's how u feel and your mother after somany yrs is still seriously affected by what these people are doing to her. Pls let me ask you. As you well know, its all about Christ. Have u seriously sort out time to ask Jesus for urself about this whole issue? I feel if u have, really have a good talk, I mean a good talk with Christ, this issue will sort itself out. If you find christ, you'll help lift ur mother up from the state she is right now. She has allowed men to use the same Jesus who died for us individually to torment her and make her life mesirable. See my dear sister, Ask God questions, I mean sincere heartfelt questions. He answers. God speaks. When u encounter him for urself, you'll see, if they put the whole of the world's jws or any organization for that matter together against you. You won't see them. You are still burdened by religion. Pls in ur closed fine christ. He is as real as the next person. Am telling you this because I know. Life takes us through stages. I was naturally a seeker on a quest. I almost became a jw, I had those pple studying with me for a long while until they brought one watch tower one sunday with some question that got me really thinking and I went into the bible for myself and saw the twist. I left them, and almost got initiated into one tibetan easten religion. It got to point I decided to ask jesus some questions, he answered, but it took a sincere longing and thirsty heart. Today, I stand on a solid ground, I know who christ is, its not a religion, is not a denomination. Its christ. So you know. For a period of ten yrs, I was not able to walk so I had no choice but to read and be alone a lot with my thoughts. I cried out he heard me, he answered by himself. He answers. Keep religion aside. Open up to him. Forget everyone, its just you and him. He can't talk to u outside of the bible. Don't go to him with a precieved notion of what u think. Cry out to him. He answers. He answered me. Now nothing in this world matters to me. I know who I am now. It has nothing to do with where I worship.

Flytefalls:



Hey @dolphinheart, have a look at the text below. I do wonder what would happen if one approached an elder sincerely with the same question quoted, and used the watchtowers conflicting quotes to cite their confusion. I wonder if the current understanding of this prophet question is less wonky today? I wonder if these have been removed from the WT archives. I'll wander.

Those quotes are not conflicting. It definitely looks conflicting, but to a JW and any other person with scriptural understanding, those statements can go.
Those statements just reminds me of how far critics can go in their shameful endeavour.

First: Jw's teach even from the scriptures that the gifts of the spirit(such as prophesy) expired at the death of the last Apostle. Therefore claiming they have a gift of prophecy in the sense of foretelling events would be ridiculous. First understand who a prophet is according to the Bible:


The English word `prophet' comes from the Greek `pro phe' tes.' `Pro phe' tes' literally means `a speaker out' [Gr. pro, `before' or `in front of,' and phe-mi, `to speak'], and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Titus 1:12.) Though the English word retains this same basic meaning, to many persons today it conveys only the restricted thought of a predicter of the future. But, as this information will show, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction.


Dr. Robert Young (author of Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible and Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary) writes:

PROPHET - is used of one who (professedly) announces the will or celebrates the works of God, whether these relate to things past, present or future, and it is applied to patriarchs, orators, singers, songstresses, priests, and preachers. - Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation," #68.

Dr. Young also wrote: "The Hebrew idea of a prophet is not that of one who foretells future events, but one who receives a revelation [`God's disclosure ... of his will to man, as through ... laws, etc.' - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary] of God's will and proclaims it to others." - Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, p. 48.

The Encyclopedia Britannica explains that, although the idea of prediction gradually came to be attached to the word, it originally meant "one who speaks out":

Etymologically prophetes] denoted `forth-telling' [speaking out], not `fore-telling' [speaking before (in time)]. - Vol. 18, p. 586, 1956.

An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm, (ed.) states:

The prophets were not forecasters or philosophers, but ... preachers, moralists, ... and men of action who felt themselves to be mouthpieces of Yahweh ... and instruments of Yahweh's creative purpose in man's historic life. - p. 614.

Today's Dictionary of the Bible tells us, "we must regard `prophet' as a forth-teller, not a Foreteller." - p. 509, Bethany House Publishers, 1982.

A footnote for Matt. 7:22 in The NIV Study Bible states:

prophesy. In the NT this verb primarily means to give a messsage from God, not necessarily to predict.



Well, what does the Watchtower Society call those people in the Bible who received messages directly from God? They, too, are described as being prophets, or, more clearly, as being inspired prophets.

Does the Watchtower Society claim to be an inspired prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?

The Watchtower has said:

"We have not the gift of prophecy." - January 1883, page 425.

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." - December 15, 1896, page 306.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" - February 15, 1981, page 19.


Jehovah's people today .... are having a share in the fulfillment of the prophecy, `your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy.' (Joel 2:28) Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration, but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded. They prophesy in the sense of being God's spokesmen. That this is one of the meanings of `prophesy' is apparent from the fact that Jehovah God appointed Aaron to be prophet to his brother Moses. Aaron did not foretell things to Moses, but he served as Moses' spokesman or mouthpiece.

Flytefalls:

Found it! It was the first to appear hahahahahahaha. I don't think my search included 'pdf' yesterday, but I'm still ashamed of myself for not having tried . Thank you!

@JuanDeDios MyJoe is rapid fire! This thread is a treasure, thank you! His first post was fully loaded, this is some heel arching quality material!

Hey @dolphinheart, have a look at the text below. I do wonder what would happen if one approached an elder sincerely with the same question quoted, and used the watchtowers conflicting quotes to cite their confusion. I wonder if the current understanding of this prophet question is less wonky today? I wonder if these have been removed from the WT archives. I'll wander.

Don't wonder what will happen, take a step and approach them. Better still, why dnt you write the organization with your view since your issue is against the watchtower, and let's see what they will tell you.

I just wonder how someone seeking bible truth, who believes in God now aligns with someone who has contrary beliefs with her just because of her drive to make an organization belief look wrong or bad .
If you are sincere in knowing the truth, ask jayriginal what his own views are one the bible you believe in , and then on his view about the websites he is directing you to.

If you are really searching for the truth, pls ask him on this thread and let's see ur discussion.

I cannot comment on the wonder of ur post cus ill like to use the scripture as the bases of my discussion , which you have not approved of.

I do wonder, all these while you still have not stated the questions u asked the elders, their unsatisfactory answer and ur own view of the answer to the question up till now.

Anas09:
As I read this OP, I feel pressed down in my spirit because I sensed that's how u feel and your mother after somany yrs is still seriously affected by what these people are doing to her. Pls let me ask you. As you well know, its all about Christ. Have u seriously sort out time to ask Jesus for urself about this whole issue? I feel if u have, really have a good talk, I mean a good talk with Christ, this issue will sort itself out. If you find christ, you'll help lift ur mother up from the state she is right now. She has allowed men to use the same Jesus who died for us individually to torment her and make her life mesirable. See my dear sister, Ask God questions, I mean sincere heartfelt questions. He answers. God speaks. When u encounter him for urself, you'll see, if they put the whole of the world's jws or any organization for that matter together against you. You won't see them. You are still burdened by religion. Pls in ur closed fine christ. He is as real as the next person. Am telling you this because I know. Life takes us through stages. I was naturally a seeker on a quest. I almost became a jw, I had those pple studying with me for a long while until they brought one watch tower one sunday with some question that got me really thinking and I went into the bible for myself and saw the twist. I left them, and almost got initiated into one tibetan easten religion. It got to point I decided to ask jesus some questions, he answered, but it took a sincere longing and thirsty heart. Today, I stand on a solid ground, I know who christ is, its not a religion, is not a denomination. Its christ. So you know. For a period of ten yrs, I was not able to walk so I had no choice but to read and be alone a lot with my thoughts. I cried out he heard me, he answered by himself. He answers. Keep religion aside. Open up to him. Forget everyone, its just you and him. He can't talk to u outside of the bible. Don't go to him with a precieved notion of what u think. Cry out to him. He answers. He answered me. Now nothing in this world matters to me. I know who I am now. It has nothing to do with where I worship.

Oga, the answers she needs is in the bible, the solution to wateva issues she has is in the bible. Reading the bible with prayer to God for understanding . The bible is completely equipted for every good work, for understand , for reproving , for teaching, so that she can be fully competent.

Let me ask you: what does the bible say about dealing with a brother who becomes an apostate, a deliberate sinner or performs actions capable of distabilizing the congregation. Quote those verses out for us to see before you say some people are wrong and some right.

Pls what twist where in the watchtower, what watchtower, and how did you come to prove it was a twist.?

jayriginal:


Lol.

I've got a PDF of the books I recommended as well as a few others I didn't.

However she didn't ask, she said she'd order and so I didn't offer. I didn't want to presume because some people are strict about certain things (piracy for instance).

The reason I mentioned the Shepherd Flock of God book was because its a secret book. There is no other way to get it if you aren't an elder except the internet.

OP, feel free to request PDFs of the books if you don't mind. The person I quoted is willing to mail them to you.

https://m.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/u5fae/shepherd_the_flock_of_god_secret_elders_book/

Flytefalls please read.

BIBLESPEAKS:




Well, what does the Watchtower Society call those people in the Bible who received messages directly from God? They, too, are described as being prophets, or, more clearly, as being inspired prophets.

Does the Watchtower Society claim to be an inspired prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?

The Watchtower has said:

"We have not the gift of prophecy." - January 1883, page 425.

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." - December 15, 1896, page 306.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct . . .

This is precisely the problem. You can admit all this, yet
you claim "truth". Truth doesn't change. You cannot claim to be Gods organization on earth and keep changing what God wants. According to the bible, God doesn't change. There's nothing like the light getting clearer when it comes to the truth, plus God is said to be omniscient, yet you make God look confused when you keep changing your doctrines.

Is this not enough to discredit the so called faithful and discrete slave?

Flytefalls:

Found it! It was the first to appear hahahahahahaha. I don't think my search included 'pdf' yesterday, but I'm still ashamed of myself for not having tried . Thank you!

You're quite welcome.

Interesting thread

Interesting thread

Flytefalls, I would agree with the poster that said its all about Christ. Now it seems you are still burdened, It is good to have information about JW and what they seem to do wrong but please ask Jesus to unburden your heart, By the time that happens you will be able to help your mum. Honestly thats all you and your mum need, He will heal the wounded hearts, fill the void in your hearts.Trust me this is all you need. He is near you.


Just to add this:
It takes a personal encounter from the Lord for a JW to leave the organization. You can never be right when discussing with a JW. Its like there's a veil over their eyes just like a former JW sister testified, the level of indoctrination is so high that I just wonder. That veil can only be lifted through a personal encounter with the Lord.

jayriginal:


This is precisely the problem. You can admit all this, yet
you claim "truth". Truth doesn't change. You cannot claim to be Gods organization on earth and keep changing what God wants. According to the bible, God doesn't change. There's nothing like the light getting clearer when it comes to the truth, plus God is said to be omniscient, yet you make God look confused when you keep changing your doctrines.

Is this not enough to discredit the so called faithful and discrete slave?

You're thinking in human terms. The Bible didn't say God's servants will understand the Bible's message at once automatically did it?

Understanding of God's word is always gradual, even according to God's will - That's the Bible's viewpoint of the matter.

For example:

First century christians had to come to the understanding according to God's will that God had opened the door for uncircumcised Gentiles to also worship him in truth - Acts 10:34
It also means that God grants understanding according to his timetable.

The disciples of Christ had been with him throughout his ministry on earth but they had wrong expectations regarding the kingdom of God, for they hadnt fully grasped Jesus' teachings. Luke records: "He was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly." - Luke 19:11. To readjust their thinking, Jesus gave an illustration.

However, just before Jesus' ascension, his disciples asked: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6) Did their wrong expectation or lack of knowledge regarding this issue indicate that God wasn't with them? NO. Did Jesus reject them for asking this? NO. He explained that it was not yet the time and that they were to busy themselves with the important work of witnessing about the true messiah. (Acts 1:7,

It was even after christ' death they understood more about the kingdom.


regarding the prophecies by God through Daniel, God told Daniel: "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about and the true knowledge will become abundant." -Daniel 12:4

The hebrew verb here translated "rove about" conveys the idea of a careful examination(not Automatic). And true to this, many have carefully examined and understood these prophecies by Daniel even much more than paul and the other apostles. This certainly does not mean that God was not with the apostles.

yetseyi:
Interesting thread

Flytefalls, I would agree with the poster that said its all about Christ. Now it seems you are still burdened, It is good to have information about JW and what they seem to do wrong but please ask Jesus to unburden your heart, By the time that happens you will be able to help your mum. Honestly thats all you and your mum need, He will heal the wounded hearts, fill the void in your hearts.Trust me this is all you need. He is near you.


Just to add this:
It takes a personal encounter from the Lord for a JW to leave the organization. You can never be right when discussing with a JW. Its like there's a veil over their eyes just like a former JW sister testified, the level of indoctrination is so high that I just wonder. That veil can only be lifted through a personal encounter with the Lord.

You are very right. I am gearing up for personal Bible study. All of this is an aside because I have too many Witnesses in my face right now (family) spitting their one-track lyrics. I honestly have no need to disrespect anothers choice of religion, but these Witnesses are so darn snooty it picks at my nerves. My JW family constantly disrespect my choices, but I too can also have a defensive tongue.

BIBLESPEAKS:


Those quotes are not conflicting. It definitely looks conflicting, but to a JW and any other person with scriptural understanding, those statements can go.
Those statements just reminds me of how far critics can go in their shameful endeavour.

First: Jw's teach even from the scriptures that the gifts of the spirit(such as prophesy) expired at the death of the last Apostle. Therefore claiming they have a gift of prophecy in the sense of foretelling events would be ridiculous. First understand who a prophet is according to the Bible:


The English word `prophet' comes from the Greek `pro phe' tes.' `Pro phe' tes' literally means `a speaker out' [Gr. pro, `before' or `in front of,' and phe-mi, `to speak'], and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Titus 1:12.) Though the English word retains this same basic meaning, to many persons today it conveys only the restricted thought of a predicter of the future. But, as this information will show, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction.


Dr. Robert Young (author of Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible and Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary) writes:

PROPHET - is used of one who (professedly) announces the will or celebrates the works of God, whether these relate to things past, present or future, and it is applied to patriarchs, orators, singers, songstresses, priests, and preachers. - Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation," #68.

Dr. Young also wrote: "The Hebrew idea of a prophet is not that of one who foretells future events, but one who receives a revelation [`God's disclosure ... of his will to man, as through ... laws, etc.' - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary] of God's will and proclaims it to others." - Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, p. 48.

The Encyclopedia Britannica explains that, although the idea of prediction gradually came to be attached to the word, it originally meant "one who speaks out":

Etymologically prophetes] denoted `forth-telling' [speaking out], not `fore-telling' [speaking before (in time)]. - Vol. 18, p. 586, 1956.

An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm, (ed.) states:

The prophets were not forecasters or philosophers, but ... preachers, moralists, ... and men of action who felt themselves to be mouthpieces of Yahweh ... and instruments of Yahweh's creative purpose in man's historic life. - p. 614.

Today's Dictionary of the Bible tells us, "we must regard `prophet' as a forth-teller, not a Foreteller." - p. 509, Bethany House Publishers, 1982.

A footnote for Matt. 7:22 in The NIV Study Bible states:

prophesy. In the NT this verb primarily means to give a messsage from God, not necessarily to predict.



Well, what does the Watchtower Society call those people in the Bible who received messages directly from God? They, too, are described as being prophets, or, more clearly, as being inspired prophets.

Does the Watchtower Society claim to be an inspired prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?

The Watchtower has said:

"We have not the gift of prophecy." - January 1883, page 425.

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." - December 15, 1896, page 306.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" - February 15, 1981, page 19.


Jehovah's people today .... are having a share in the fulfillment of the prophecy, `your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy.' (Joel 2:28) Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration, but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded. They prophesy in the sense of being God's spokesmen. That this is one of the meanings of `prophesy' is apparent from the fact that Jehovah God appointed Aaron to be prophet to his brother Moses. Aaron did not foretell things to Moses, but he served as Moses' spokesman or mouthpiece.

Okay, so now we can use the word prophet to mean many things by definition, not just prediction. Therefore, prophets are not restricted to the realm of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as your citations support. So what claim can any religion make to be the ‘truth’ then, and denounce any member who may have a difference of opinion? Are the opinions of the governing body the only ones that really matter? Hey I can say the same about other religions; are the opinions of the pope the only ones that matter? Yadda yadda ya.

"God has a people on earth, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God, Jehovah’s Witnesses." (AW 6/8/86 p9)

That could be construed as a lie if the term 'Jehovah's Witnesses' was restricted to your religion. The following was taken from the May 2015 WT article “The End, what does it mean”:

3. THE END OF RELIGIONS THAT HAVE FAILED GOD AND HUMANS.
“The prophets prophesy lies, and the priests dominate by their own authority. . . . But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31) “Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”—Matthew 7:21-23.


Funny that this is my current opinion of ‘the truth’. It has failed humans (is my mother not human?), it has lied to them (where do we begin with those), expelled demons, etc. 'Priests dominated by their own authority'; well, the excerpt below is taken from Crisis of Conscience, which I am presently enjoying

“At stake is the freedom to pursue spiritual truth untrammeled by
arbitrary restrictions and the right to enjoy a personal relationship with
God and his Son free from the subtle interposition of a priestly
nature on the part of some human agency."

I have no problems with agreeing to disagree, but all opinions should be subject to scrutiny by all. When I disagreed, they stopped my Bible Studies. Cool. When my mother disagreed, they DF'd her. Was that really necessary? People in 'the truth' are not at liberty to speak up, lest they sacrifice everything. Not just their religion, but every-damn-thing! Many good people in 'the truth' are fearful about speaking up, or acting too independently- this is where I will always have issues with your religion. One day, I hope things will change for the better.

TheFilmmaker:



https://m.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/u5fae/shepherd_the_flock_of_god_secret_elders_book/

Flytefalls please read.

I've added the pdf to my collection. Thanks

Flytefalls:

Found it! It was the first to appear hahahahahahaha. I don't think my search included 'pdf' yesterday, but I'm still ashamed of myself for not having tried . Thank you!

Franz wrote a follow-up book, In Search of Christian Freedom. You may also want to give it a look after CoC.

Anas09:
As I read this OP, I feel pressed down in my spirit because I sensed that's how u feel and your mother after somany yrs is still seriously affected by what these people are doing to her. Pls let me ask you. As you well know, its all about Christ. Have u seriously sort out time to ask Jesus for urself about this whole issue? I feel if u have, really have a good talk, I mean a good talk with Christ, this issue will sort itself out. If you find christ, you'll help lift ur mother up from the state she is right now. She has allowed men to use the same Jesus who died for us individually to torment her and make her life mesirable. See my dear sister, Ask God questions, I mean sincere heartfelt questions. He answers. God speaks. When u encounter him for urself, you'll see, if they put the whole of the world's jws or any organization for that matter together against you. You won't see them. You are still burdened by religion. Pls in ur closed fine christ. He is as real as the next person. Am telling you this because I know. Life takes us through stages. I was naturally a seeker on a quest. I almost became a jw, I had those pple studying with me for a long while until they brought one watch tower one sunday with some question that got me really thinking and I went into the bible for myself and saw the twist. I left them, and almost got initiated into one tibetan easten religion. It got to point I decided to ask jesus some questions, he answered, but it took a sincere longing and thirsty heart. Today, I stand on a solid ground, I know who christ is, its not a religion, is not a denomination. Its christ. So you know. For a period of ten yrs, I was not able to walk so I had no choice but to read and be alone a lot with my thoughts. I cried out he heard me, he answered by himself. He answers. Keep religion aside. Open up to him. Forget everyone, its just you and him. He can't talk to u outside of the bible. Don't go to him with a precieved notion of what u think. Cry out to him. He answers. He answered me. Now nothing in this world matters to me. I know who I am now. It has nothing to do with where I worship.

@ bold, yes! Personal study will work okay for me. The thing about the JW's is, as I've mentioned before, I have to deal with the ones in my family constantly challenging me, and affecting the happiness of my mother. They want me in their paradise so much that they feel to nit pick at my choices. They love me, or else they wouldn't bother trying, but I love them too and I see sometimes where they go wrong with their faith in 'the truth'. You have spoken well, you have opened Jesus up to everyone, but they like to go on like He belongs only to them . I cannot stand for that.

JuanDeDios:

Franz wrote a follow-up book, In Search of Christian Freedom. You may also want to give it a look after CoC.

As ever, I thank you Sir

JuanDeDios:

Franz wrote a follow-up book, In Search of Christian Freedom. You may also want to give it a look after CoC.

This thread doesnt make any sense as far as am concerned , u and ur mum are not interested in a religion , and to butter ur bread .. They disfellowhip u ! U SHOULD BE HAPPY IF TRULY U ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THEM , ..

BUT THE REVERSE IS HAPPENING HERE .... THEY ARE ALL GETTIN EMOTINAL AND DEPRESSED , even this so called franz that wrote crisis of conscience suffered emotionally . They felt like someone who just lost a pot of gold .