In a completely secular society, what differentiates right from wrong?

Just curious.

C2H5OH:

Dear Atheists: Is Religion Necessary For Morality )

No.

In a completely secular society, what differentiates right from wrong?

Just curious.

The same in religious societies: Human made laws and societal based ethics formulated and codified to best protect many\most members of a group or society at large.

KAG:

No.

The same in religious societies: Human made laws and societal based ethics formulated and codified to best protect many\most members of a group or society at large.

what r u saying?

Has God`s classification of good and evil from the very beginning and as given to moses, been repudiated?

Morality or moral attempts undefined by Christianity is a wasted effort. It leads no where.

noetic:

what r u saying?

That communities - human communities - fashion morals.

Has God`s classification of good and evil from the very beginning and as given to moses, been repudiated?

You mean the ancient Jews classification of good and evil? Well, yes, several have, actually. You'd be surprised at the number of laws attributed to Moses that we consider nonsensical or outdated these days.

Morality or moral attempts undefined by Christianity is a wasted effort. It leads no where.

That's a bold claim. So, am I to understand that the Jews pre-Christ (and during, in fact), the ancient Greeks, most of Africa for much of its life, etc, weren't moral before Christianity? Hmm, that's an interesting thought: Humans have been amoral or immoral for much of its existence, then. Super.

Why is religion seen as some kind of virtue? It has alot of contradictions. The old testament is full of violence from a supposedly loving God who tells people to kill people for whatever reason. All it is is people talking common sense with a God in place to give them more power and influence.

If anything religion is IMMORAL. Doing good things for a reward in heaven isnt moral, its selfish, arrogant and immoral. It aint really coming from their hearts they are just following orders.

Religion is For Drop Outs. People hold on to religion, like a crutch because they can't make it any other way. With religion you stop being responsible for your own actions and blame someone else like God when it's something you like and the Devil when it's something you don't like.

noetic:

what r u saying?

Has God`s classification of good and evil from the very beginning and as given to moses, been repudiated?

yes it has why are people not stoning each other for doing work on the sabbath? what has the commandedment of not boiling baby goat in their mothers milk got to do with you and i? that ridicilous law is also part of the ten commandments. What morality is there to learn in christianity when the same god that says he is a good god admits that he is also capable of doing evil? he even confessed his evil deeds. . . . . (i wonder why chrsitians say that they worship a good that is incapable of doing evil. . . . . ) 

"Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to offer your prayer: If you remain quietly in this land I will build you up, and not tear you down; I will plant you, not uproot you; for I regret the evil I have done you."(Jeremiah 42:9-10)

here is the ancient hebrew god confessing of his evil deeds. . . . what morality is there to learn from a god that gives out ridicilous laws and is a strong advocate of rape, murder, sagregation and slavery?

Morality or moral attempts undefined by Christianity is a wasted effort. It leads no where.

are you sure? what makes you say that? you mean all the billions of people that have survived in china, mongolia, india, japan, sri-lanka who have never hard of jesus or yahweh over the years were just savages that lived off one another?

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.  I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.   (Leviticus 26:21-22 )

what kind of morality is this? killing peoples children because their parents refuse to worship you? is there anything good to be learnt from this verse? do people deserve to be killed for disobedience and lack of worship?  Morality has nothing to do with religion. . . . . .

It depends on what you mean by morals

What is morally right for you might not be so for me

If you mean “morals” in the context of upholding the human law then of course not religion is not needed
anyone with common sense and sense of decency will have that.

But if you mean “morals” like no sex before marriage, homosexuality, abortion e.t.c it depends on who you are asking.

KAG:

That communities - human communities - fashion morals.

I dont even know wat to say.
This is not only false, it is also baseless with regards to individual securities.
I m implying that societal norms (which is what i believe u mean) are not in any way a standard bearer for morality.

You mean the ancient Jews classification of good and evil? Well, yes, several have, actually. You'd be surprised at the number of laws attributed to Moses that we consider nonsensical or outdated these days.
That's a bold claim. So, am I to understand that the Jews pre-Christ (and during, in fact), the ancient Greeks, most of Africa for much of its life, etc, weren't moral before Christianity? Hmm, that's an interesting thought: Humans have been amoral or immoral for much of its existence, then. Super.

I meant Jehovah God.

Has His classification of murder, stealing, parental disobedience, fornication, Homosexuality and adultery as evil, still not moral standards even to atheists?
These classification by God of good and evil many thousand years ago still stand the test of time and human intellect today.

No religion is not neccesasary for morality.

The notion of what is moral or immoral is absolutely relative.

mazaje:

yes it has why are people not stoning each other for doing work on the sabbath? what has the commandedment of not boiling baby goat in their mothers milk got to do with you and i? that ridicilous law is also part of the ten commandments. What morality is there to learn in christianity when the same god that says he is a good god admits that he is also capable of doing evil? he even confessed his evil deeds. . . . . (i wonder why chrsitians say that they worship a good that is incapable of doing evil. . . . . ) 

ur argument is way out of line. Has God`s commandments to man (moses) classifying good and evil, still not relevant in all societies today? yes or no.

You are talking about the repercussion of evil. Its as simple as sentencing someone to the gas chamber for committing murder.
Is the sentence evil, considering the initial crime commited?

here is the ancient hebrew god confessing of his evil deeds. . . . what morality is there to learn from a god that gives out ridicilous laws and is a strong advocate of rape, murder, sagregation and slavery?

are you sure? what makes you say that? you mean all the billions of people that have survived in china, mongolia, india, japan, sri-lanka who have never hard of jesus or yahweh over the years were just savages that lived off one another?

what kind of morality is this? killing peoples children because their parents refuse to worship you? is there anything good to be learnt from this verse? do people deserve to be killed for disobedience and lack of worship?  Morality has nothing to do with religion. . . . . .

just dont get ur point.

what is morality?
Is God`s 10 commandments given to moses, before this modern civilisation, still relevant in law making for all societies existing today?

posakosa:

No religion is not neccesasary for morality.

The notion of what is moral or immoral is absolutely relative.

you are right.

But since Christianity is more than a religion, (its a relationship with the Father), I can safely say that Its doctrines are the standard bearer for all forms of morality.

noetic:

ur argument is way out of line. Has God`s commandments to man (moses) classifying good and evil, still not relevant in all societies today? yes or no.

the bible gods commandment concerning good and evil was only relative, it was ok for jews not to enslave each other but it was ok for them to enslave others . . . .

You are talking about the repercussion of evil. Its as simple as sentencing someone to the gas chamber for committing murder.
Is the sentence evil, considering the initial crime commited?

sure you dont stone to death some one for picking sticks on a sabbath will yo

just dont get ur point.

what is morality?
Is God`s 10 commandments given to moses, before this modern civilisation, still relevant in law making for all societies existing today?

how can you get my point when you are living inside a bubble. . . some of the 10 commandments are not relevant in todays world at all. . . try stoning to death somebody for him doing work on the sabbath and see what will happen to you. . . . some of the 10 commandments are natural, even people that have never read any of the 10 commandment know that it is wrong to steal, kill or tell lies. . . people know to respect their parent even those that were never exposed to the 10 commandments at all, example our ancestors in africa that never came across the writings and commandments of mostly unknown jewish writers called the old testament knew that is is good to respect your parents they were never told to do that by yahweh the god of the ancient hebrews. . . . .

Religion is not necessary for morality and we do not get our morals from the bible but from our parents

mazaje:

the bible gods commandment concerning good and evil was only relative, it was ok for jews not to enslave each other but it was ok for them to enslave others . . . .

how relative? did the laws ask them to buy or sell slaves?

sure you dont stone to death some one for picking sticks on a sabbath will yo

thats my problem with atheists, please be objective.

what does the consequence of breaking the law have to do with good or evil?
any law without punishment is of little or no regard or consequence. Is it right to steal? commit adultery? kill? lie?
if u agree that these things are wrong and immoral, then isnt it essential that there are corrsponding consequences for violating this commandments?

how can you get my point when you are living inside a bubble. . . some of the 10 commandments are not relevant in todays world at all. . . try stoning to death somebody for him doing work on the sabbath and see what will happen to you. . . . some of the 10 commandments are natural, even people that have never read any of the 10 commandment know that it is wrong to steal, kill or tell lies. . . people know to respect their parent even those that were never exposed to the 10 commandments at all, example our ancestors in africa that never came across the writings and commandments of mostly unknown jewish writers called the old testament knew that is is good to respect your parents they were never told to do that by yahweh the god of the ancient hebrews. . . . .

which of the 10 commandments is irrelevant in this age? do u really know what the 10 commandments are?

how can a law be natural? It is the norm of the yorubas for the male to prostrate and the female kneel when greeting the elders. It is however not the norm amongst the igbos. This does not mean that younger yorubas are respectful or do honour their parents, neither does it mean that the igbos are rude or disrespectful. Its just a norm.
Jehovah God`s law says honour ur parents that ur days might be long. This has nothing to do with the cultural norms prevalent in africa or anywhere. This is a law.

You get your morals from your parents? Where did your parents get their morals from?

You make it sound like morality has a divine origin.


Common sense is not enough to distinguish right from wrong. As noetic said, societal norms are not a standard measure for morality.

morality is determined by society.  There is no static form of morality and moral systems differ by society.


To a jew or Muslim, christians would be considered immoral for eating pork, christians would be considered for certain clothing ( morality even differs among christian denomination).  Killing isn't considered immoral during war or self-defense, does that mean killing is right?

Slavery was sanctioned by Catholic and protestant churches alike.   The KKK was built on an aryan christian tradition.

Morality is flexible and differs based on time and space (different locations).

We humans determine what's moral or immoral then attribute this morality to religion.  The God's don't make any laws, God isn't the head of the Supreme court.

But since Christianity is more than a religion, (its a relationship with the Father), I can safely say that Its doctrines are the standard bearer for all forms of morality.

Judaism and Islam are built on a relationship with the same Abrahamaic God but still considered religion.  Christianity is a canonized religion. 

Morality or moral attempts undefined by Christianity is a wasted effort. It leads no where.

hmm seems like a biased point of view.

point of correction bawo, you people are too used to slipping away with baseless lies. The aryan culture is not a christian tradition . . . there is no such thing as aryan christian tradition. That SOME (not all) aryans tried to cover themselves with the cloak of the church does not mean the christianity itself sanctioned racism.

@Poster

The answer to your question is so simple and is found in the christian bible Jesus said and I quote "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath".

Religion itself is man made in order to create an harmonious society, it is rather unfortunate that human diversity has made it a political and economic tool and in the process made it lose most of its usefulness. Morality as we know it is totally relative but it doesnt have to be if it stipulates the basic tenet of care and consideration for others and the society at large which Jesus succintly put as (Love of God and Love of Neighbor).

Understanding that religion itself is false does not mean that it should be discarded, afterall despite its many failings it has at least thrown up as many heroes as villains.

davidylan:

point of correction bawo, you people are too used to slipping away with baseless lies. The aryan culture is not a christian tradition . . . there is no such thing as aryan christian tradition. That SOME (not all) aryans tried to cover themselves with the cloak of the church does not mean the christianity itself sanctioned racism.

I know yu will be quick to deny your brothers (or cousins as the case may be) but the aryan culture that fuelled the KKK based a lot of their beliefs on the bible. You can always claim that they twisted the bible but have your own babblings on this forum not been a twisting of your precious bible as it suits you? You would have been classified as a seed of satan and lynched by your fellow bible punchers for not having blood in the face (can't blush) due to your melanin containing skin just because your precious bible was not specific and literal in its meanings hence the possibility of it being twisted easily by people with their selfish agendas as is still being done by your brethren even as we speak.

bawomolo:

morality is determined by society.  There is no static form of morality and moral systems differ by society.


To a jew or Muslim, christians would be considered immoral for eating pork, christians would be considered for certain clothing ( morality even differs among christian denomination).  Killing isn't considered immoral during war or self-defense, does that mean killing is right?

Slavery was sanctioned by Catholic and protestant churches alike.   The KKK was built on an aryan christian tradition.

Morality is flexible and differs based on time and space (different locations).

We humans determine what's moral or immoral then attribute this morality to religion.  The God's don't make any laws, God isn't the head of the Supreme court.

Judaism and Islam are built on a relationship with the same Abrahamaic God but still considered religion.  Christianity is a canonized religion. 

hmm seems like a biased point of view.

duduspace:

@Poster

The answer to your question is so simple and is found in the christian bible Jesus said and I quote "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath".

Religion itself is man made in order to create an harmonious society, it is rather unfortunate that human diversity has made it a political and economic tool and in the process made it lose most of its usefulness. Morality as we know it is totally relative but it doesnt have to be if it stipulates the basic tenet of care and consideration for others and the society at large which Jesus succintly put as (Love of God and Love of Neighbor).

Understanding that religion itself is false does not mean that it should be discarded, afterall despite its many failings it has at least thrown up as many heroes as villains.

I know yu will be quick to deny your brothers (or cousins as the case may be) but the aryan culture that fuelled the KKK based a lot of their beliefs on the bible. You can always claim that they twisted the bible but have your own babblings on this forum not been a twisting of your precious bible as it suits you? You would have been classified as a seed of satan and lynched by your fellow bible punchers for not having blood in the face (can't blush) due to your melanin containing skin just because your precious bible was not specific and literal in its meanings hence the possibility of it being twisted easily by people with their selfish agendas as is still being done by your brethren even as we speak.

what's the difference between a societal norm and custom (on one hand) and morality (on the other hand)?

noetic:

That communities - human communities - fashion morals.

I dont even know wat to say.
This is not only false, it is also baseless with regards to individual securities.
I m implying that societal norms (which is what i believe u mean) are not in any way a standard bearer for morality.

Um, no, it isn't false. It isn't baseless either. First, I didn't mean to say societal norms, but I'm glad you brought that up. Why? Well, because societal norms - custom - shapes the thinking of individuals within a community thereby inclining them towards particular moral stances. To quote Pascal, "Custom is our nature. What are our natural principles but principles of custom?"

Second, to stress the point, different communities have different understandings, moral stances, on what it means to be a killer. It's easy enough to spout off ideals like "thou shalt not kill", but even within the Bible, we see different moral inclinations in regard to that edict, based on how the community in question is fashioned.

Human communities fashion morals.

[Quote]

You mean the ancient Jews classification of good and evil? Well, yes, several have, actually. You'd be surprised at the number of laws attributed to Moses that we consider nonsensical or outdated these days.
That's a bold claim. So, am I to understand that the Jews pre-Christ (and during, in fact), the ancient Greeks, most of Africa for much of its life, etc, weren't moral before Christianity? Hmm, that's an interesting thought: Humans have been amoral or immoral for much of its existence, then. Super.

I meant Jehovah God.

Has His classification of murder, stealing, parental disobedience, fornication, Homosexuality and adultery as evil, still not moral standards even to atheists?
These classification by God of good and evil many thousand years ago still stand the test of time and human intellect today.[/quote]

No, you meant the ancient Jews. But that's neither here nor there. Anyway, no the classifications you mention are not moral standards, especially not for most atheists. I'll go through the ones you mention individually:

Murder & stealing : Those happen very frequently. Hell, they happened in Bible, with murder being so frequently practiced by "God's chosens" that the "law" became moot. Moreover, many tend not to realise it, but we - most people - have a tendency to evaluate acts that fall under those terms (murder and stealing) individually. Individual, subjective morality at work. Definitely not the dogmatically followed moral standard for all communities.

Parental disobedience: Most thinking people are not so mindless as to think it's possible to obey your parents at all times, nor that many parents should be obeyed at all times. I wonder, would David's story be as entertaining if he had obeyed his father and contentedly tended the sheep. In any case, no, in most modern societies, it isn't a moral standard. More so, if your parents are redneck drunks with KKK affiliations. Just saying.

Incidentally, we don't stone kids anymore. So much for your moral standards. So much for ours.

Fornication: Lol. Not even close.

Homosexuality: Not amongst ethical people, no. Put it this way, in most Western communities, homosexuality is accepted, even embraced. Their unions are even celebrated.

Adultery: Depends.

What have we learnt? Those "laws" to help guide ethics have barely stood the test of time. Further, many communities had their own moral guides separate from Judeo-Christian traditions.

noetic: ur argument is way out of line. Has God`s commandments to man (moses) classifying good and evil, still not relevant in all societies today? yes or no.

No.

Is God`s 10 commandments given to moses, before this modern civilisation, still relevant in law making for all societies existing today?

No.

Is religion necessary for morality? - No.

KAG:

No.

No.

see,  . .  this is the evidence of ur lack of objectivity. So man made laws now regard murder, lies, adultery, stealing as good deeds, right?

what is the content of the 10 commandments?

KAG:

Um, no, it isn't false. It isn't baseless either. First, I didn't mean to say societal norms, but I'm glad you brought that up. Why? Well, because societal norms - custom - shapes the thinking of individuals within a community thereby inclining them towards particular moral stances. To quote Pascal, "Custom is our nature. What are our natural principles but principles of custom?"

Second, to stress the point, different communities have different understandings, moral stances, on what it means to be a killer. It's easy enough to spout off ideals like "thou shalt not kill", but even within the Bible, we see different moral inclinations in regard to that edict, based on how the community in question is fashioned.

uhmn. . . .while u demonstrated an understanding of what customs and norms mean by attempting to explain it, u refused to explain what morals mean.

do they mean the same thing? NO.

customs and norms are limited to race, countries, cultures, places, time/season or generations. But morality is a universal doctrine . Its level of acceptability or repercussions is what differ. Norms are not Morals and vice versa.

Human communities fashion morals.

How? please give an illustration or example to buttress ur point.

No, you meant the ancient Jews. But that's neither here nor there. Anyway, no the classifications you mention are not moral standards, especially not for most atheists. I'll go through the ones you mention individually:

Murder & stealing : Those happen very frequently. Hell, they happened in Bible, with murder being so frequently practiced by "God's chosens" that the "law" became moot. Moreover, many tend not to realise it, but we - most people - have a tendency to evaluate acts that fall under those terms (murder and stealing) individually. Individual, subjective morality at work. Definitely not the dogmatically followed moral standard for all communities.

I hardly understand the point u are making here, so I ask:
is it morally right, from atheistic point of view to commit murder? yes or no. 

Parental disobedience: Most thinking people are not so mindless as to think it's possible to obey your parents at all times, nor that many parents should be obeyed at all times. I wonder, would David's story be as entertaining if he had obeyed his father and contentedly tended the sheep. In any case, no, in most modern societies, it isn't a moral standard. More so, if your parents are redneck drunks with KKK affiliations. Just saying.

u have a porous knowledge of the bible. when or where did David disobey his father?

Again I ask, is it morally right, from an atheist point of view to dishonour ones parent?

Incidentally, we don't stone kids anymore. So much for your moral standards. So much for ours.

honesty is ideal in a debate. what book of the bible, chapter and verse asked u to stone ur kids?

Fornication: Lol. Not even close.

In other words u consider it okay to fornicate. Do u know that in your very same community(where u KAG live), some others consider it a norm to get married as a virgin?.
Dont u think that this contradicts ur initial statement that "human communities fashion morals" considering that ur own community now supports two contradicting moral doctrines. to fornicate and not to fornicate.

Homosexuality: Not amongst ethical people, no. Put it this way, in most Western communities, homosexuality is accepted, even embraced. Their unions are even celebrated.

considering that ur opinion is not from a religious but atheistic point of view, I must say that this is very biased.

Adultery: Depends.

What have we learnt? Those "laws" to help guide ethics have barely stood the test of time. Further, many communities had their own moral guides separate from Judeo-Christian traditions.

Adultery depends on what? While it is a norm in yorubaland for a married man to have concubines but forbidden for a married woman, it is also acceptable in india for a woman to practice polyandry. These are norms of two different places.

Morality is ordained by the all Righteous and Holy one, Jehovah God. And he rewards those who abide. This buttresses my opening statement that morality without Christianity is a wasted effort.

noetic:

u have a porous knowledge of the bible. when or where did David disobey his father?

I couldnt understand what he/she was saying either. Perhaps she has another bible . . .

I was also confused by this - Homosexuality: Not amongst ethical people, no. Put it this way, in most Western communities, homosexuality is accepted, even embraced. Their unions are even celebrated.

Apart from the fact that a lot of people mistakenly assume that "western communities" = civilization, what of other communities especially in Africa where homosexuality is a taboo? In those so-called western communities, homosexuality was not "embraced" until recently and this had little to do with the bible.

point of correction bawo, you people are too used to slipping away with baseless lies. The aryan culture is not a christian tradition . . . there is no such thing as aryan christian tradition. That SOME (not all) aryans tried to cover themselves with the cloak of the church does not mean the christianity itself sanctioned racism

lmao , the KKK considers itself a christian organization. ever wondered why KKK members burned CROSSES on the lawns of black folks? Catholic, jews and blacks were oppressed by the predominantly protestant KKK. the KKK found comfort in the Southern Baptist Church during the segregation era.

bawomolo:

lmao , the KKK considers itself a christian organization. ever wondered why KKK members burned CROSSES on the lawns of black folks? Catholic, jews and blacks were oppressed by the predominantly protestant KKK. the KKK found comfort in the Southern Baptist Church during the segregation era.

America was a deeply religious country during the KKK era . . . that is not the same thing as the KKK being a result of christianity. Would you then agree that islam is a religion of death too since almost all suicide bombers are muslim?

davidylan:

America was a deeply religious country during the KKK era . . . that is not the same thing as the KKK being a result of christianity. Would you then agree that islam is a religion of death too since almost all suicide bombers are muslim?

Yes Al qaeda is a group driven by Islamic Fundamentalism.

What am saying is being religious or non-religious doesn't mean you are moral/immoral

bawomolo:

Yes Al qaeda is a group driven by Islamic Fundamentalism.

What am saying is being religious or non-religious doesn't mean you are moral/immoral

i basically agreed with you earlier on.
There is nothing like "morals" however in christian living . . . you are either righteous or unrighteous and our righteousness is not of works but of Christ Jesus who bought us with His blood and set us free.

davidylan:

i basically agreed with you earlier on.
There is nothing like "morals" however in christian living . . . you are either righteous or unrighteous and our righteousness is not of works but of Christ Jesus who bought us with His blood and set us free.

well stated.

This was what i meant by "Morality or moral attempts undefined by Christianity is a wasted effort. It leads no where."

davidylan:

i basically agreed with you earlier on.
There is nothing like "morals" however in christian living . . . you are either righteous or unrighteous and our righteousness is not of works but of Christ Jesus who bought us with His blood and set us free.

set you free from what? deluded goon. . . .

mazaje:

set you free from what? deluded goon. . . .

why? Does it bother you?