@pilgrim.1

Just for the records only: I'm afraid I still have no time to waste answering your questions; or even to deal with slights/insults ('letting go of letter and seeing the 'spirit' nonsense) from you.

I will post what I want to post exactly I how I want to post it.

Edited

It is my humble opinion that we should leave these "tithers" to their own delusions.
The tithe Abraham gave to Melchizedek had to be a pagan tithe because God only required 1% at that time from the spoils of war. These tithers need to update their knowledge of Babylonian practices to see that a lot of those practices had Arab pagan origin, the tithe to the king of Sodom represents what then?
I need these guys to show me an instance of Gentiles paying tithe, were tithes collected outside of the land of Israel? I am yet to see where "sowing a seed" equates money, lots of these "above reproach" Christians really are lost or have been turned into "zombies"
Earthly benefits is for pagans, we as Christians have been cautioned to lay up our treasures in Heaven and please "teacher", don't teach me nonsense even if there maybe some sense in it.

|| Kantoma, I am not sure you have read this thread or your Bible for that matter:
The principle here is that God doesn't require 10% of what you have/make, that is for your "pastor" "man of God" or whatever nomenclature he/she goes by, those big edifices are not glorifying God any more than a simple house fellowship. Giving from the heart and as much as you can is what is required of true believers under the new covenant, is it safe to say today's "pastors" are servants of the priests? WOW!

PG1: I believe the question from Kunle was if any evidence existed to say that Abraham gave tithes more than once or if Jacob actually redeemed his pledge or tithed again.
I am sticking to my old high school motto: recta decep et factere

Enigma:

@pilgrim.1

Just for the records only: I'm afraid I still have no time to waste answering your questions; or even to deal with slights/insults ('letting go of letter and seeing the 'spirit' nonsense) from you.

I will post what I want to post exactly I how I want to post it.

Edited

And is there a law/covenant that others can't post exactly how and what they want to post - even in this thread? Lol, there's no need to be perturbed - you post, we do the same.

abose:


I believe the question from Kunle was if any evidence existed to say that Abraham gave tithes more than once or if Jacob actually redeemed his pledge or tithed again.

Actually I posed these questions (though I don't know if Kunle did at some point as well); it is really a matter of basic comprehension and simple context.

@abose,

abose:

It is my humble opinion that we should leave these "tithers" to their own delusions.

Thank you. We won't return the 'compliments'.  

abose:

The tithe Abraham gave to Melchizedek had to be a pagan tithe because God only required 1% at that time from the spoils of war.

This is another recycled piece of work from Russell Kelly - and it has become redundant, I'm afraid. Just Google it up and you will find Russell never ever was able to intelligently address the issue when challenged about where from Scripture he got the "pagan tithes" for Abraham - at best, he made it up, so it is not surprising to read you infer that it "had to be" pagan tithe. The amazing thing is how you would draw this idea that "God only required 1%" - and yet still connect it with "pagan" tithe. Lol, please think a bit more. And psst: it was NOT "1%" - if you're referring ti Numbers 31. Go do the small Maths.

abose:

These tithers need to update their knowledge of Babylonian practices to see that a lot of those practices had Arab pagan origin, the tithe to the king of Sodom represents what then?

Dear abose, no be fight, you hear? You may think others to be deluded, but wake up and read the Bible - there is nothing in Genesis 14 to suggest that Abraham gave tithes to the king of Sodom! Haba!  Besides, Abraham's tithes was not 'Babylonian' (still on your "pagan tithe", otherwise you may have to come forward and tell us how "God only required 1%" of that "Babylonian" practice.

abose:

I need these guys to show me an instance of Gentiles paying tithe, were tithes collected outside of the land of Israel?

Lol, we can show you, if you care enough to see it. Let's start from here: go ask Russell and co where they got the idea that other nations also indulged in the practice of 'tithing' apart from Genesis 14. If he cannot show you, then stop recycling his fallacies. As for the collection of tithes outside the land of Israel, have you ever heard the word 'Terumah'? Nevermind whether or not others are deluded, just you try and read up a bit more, yes?

abose:

I am yet to see where "sowing a seed" equates money, lots of these "above reproach" Christians really are lost or have been turned into "zombies"

We hear. Please tell us what Paul meant in 2 Cor. 9:10 by 'seed sown', and that will do for now.

abose:

Earthly benefits is for pagans, we as Christians have been cautioned to lay up our treasures in Heaven

I hear - please remove Luke 6:38 and Mark 10:29-30 from your Bible so we can be happy for your spiritual heavenly treasures. Other Christians know the meaning of those verses among many others - it doesn't make them 'pagans'.

abose:

and please "teacher", don't teach me nonsense even if there maybe some sense in it.

Hahaha! Dear abose, I hope everything is alright? What is the correlation between the 'nonsense' and your admitting there is "some sense" in it?

abose:

PG1: I believe the question from Kunle was if any evidence existed to say that Abraham gave tithes more than once or if Jacob actually redeemed his pledge or tithed again.

I don't know if Kunle asked that question; but even so, I've responded accordingly and awaiting comments that show they were not "tithes" even though the Bible called them so.

abose:

I am sticking to my old high school motto: recta decep et factere

God bless as you stick to it.

Considering the topic title, here are some basic questions (deliberately kept to a minimum for now) for anyone who teaches "tithing" today:


1. Can a "tither" of today choose not to give the monetary "tithe" to his/her "church" or to any "church" at all?

2. Can a "tither" choose to give the "tithes" to charity e.g. to the poor, the orphan the widow?

3. Can a "tither" of today choose not to "pay" the "tithes" every month?

4. Can a "tither" of today choose to spend the "tithes" of one month on whatsoever his own heart desires?

I think even as "Zombees" as we are, could someone tell me that we would be rejected by God and be sent to hell for the giving of 10% of our income to God? And if what we are doing is not a sin, then what's all these fuzz about?

kantoma:

I think even as "Zombees" as we are, could someone tell me that we would be rejected by God and be sent to hell for the giving of 10% of our income to God? And if what we are doing is not a sin, then what's all these fuzz about?

Nobody is condenming tithes payers apart from the fact that they stand a risk of cutting themselves off the grace of christ[galatians 5:4] if they are tithing as a result of compulsion preached from the law i.e malachi 3:10. However our more severe complaints is against these criminally inspired so -called men of God who are imposing on people what God does NOT require of christians all becos of their greedy desires, that apart the other danger of this tithe doctrine is that "believers" feel they have done their christian duty by paying tithes[which jesus did not instruct] whilst ignoring the direct instructions of Jesus christ to help the needy. Helping the less priviledge is a major and central focus of christianity but today due to the greed of our so called christian leaders they are more interested in you giving everything to the church so they relegate the need to teach giving to the poor[which is our mandated christian duty] to the background.

The passage below would help explain why preachers preah tithing whilst twisting the word of God.

Jeremiah 8:8-10:

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”
when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?
9 These wise teachers will fall
into the trap of their own foolishness,
for they have rejected the word of the Lord.
Are they so wise after all?
10 I will give their wives to others
and their farms to strangers.
From the least to the greatest,
their lives are ruled by greed.
Yes, even my prophets and priests are like that.
They are all frauds.

I think even as "Zombees" as we are, could someone tell me that we would be rejected by God and be sent to hell for the giving of 10% of our income to God? And if what we are doing is not a sin, then what's all these fuzz about?

kantoma:

I think even as "Zombees" as we are, could someone tell me that we would be rejected by God and be sent to hell for the giving of 10% of our income to God? And if what we are doing is not a sin, then what's all these fuzz about?

Dear kantoma,

No worry yourself by repeating that simple statement. Dem no get answer, so e go just dey vex anti-tithers for body. It is well - give as your heart lead you in Jesus' Name.

@pilgrim.1
It's been a blessed day, thank you.

@kunleOshob and co.
just to add a little to your questions. Is Malachi3 part of the law or part of the prophets? Don't give an hasty reply!

i think there is really no point in arguing about this issue, if you believe in the old order then you must obey the 613 laws of moses in leviticus, deutoromony and numbers. You will have to stone adulters to death, you will have to stay indoors on saturday and not on sunday so that you keep the sabbath holy.
You must make animal sacrifices on daily basis :
2 Command the children of Israyl, and say to them; See that you present to Me, at the appointed time, the food for My offerings made by fire, as an aroma pleasing to Me.
3 And you shall say to them; this is the offering made by fire that you are to present to yahweh: two lambs of the first year, without blemish, as a regular burnt offering each day:
4 Sacrifice one lamb in the morning, and the other between the two evenings; the Morning and Evening Tamid.
5 Present with each lamb one-tenth of an ephah; about 2 quarts, of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with one-fourth of a hin; about 1 quart, of pressed olive oil.
6 This is the regular burnt offering instituted at Mount Sinai, as a pleasing aroma, an offering made by fire to Yahweh.
See also: Ex 29:38-42 Ps 55:17 Ps 51:17
Rom 12:1 I Kepha 2:5,9 Heb 13:15
You must make vows to God, your husband , father etc:
2 When a man vows a vow to Yahweh, or vows an oath to bind himself to some pledge, he shall not break his word. He must do everything he said he would do.
3 When a young woman, still living in her father’s house, vows a vow to Yahweh, or vows an oath to bind herself to some pledge,
4 And her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she has obligated herself, will stand.
5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or pledges, by which she obligated herself, will stand. Yahweh will release her, because her father has forbidden her.
6 If she marries after she makes a vow, or after she utters a rash promise by which she obligates herself,
7 And her husband hears about it but says nothing to her, then her vows, or the pledges by which she obligated herself, will stand.
8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her, or the rash promise by which she has obligated herself, and Yahweh will release her.
9 But any vow or pledge taken by a widow or divorced woman will be binding upon her.
10 If a woman living with her husband makes a vow, or obligates herself by a pledge under oath,
11 And her husband hears about it but says nothing to her and does not forbid her, then all her vows or the pledges she has obligated herself to, will stand.
12 But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her mouth will stand. Her husband has forbidden them, and Yahweh will release her.
13 Her husband may confirm her vow, or her husband may make it void.
14 But if her husband says nothing to her about it from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or the pledges binding upon her. He has confirmed them by saying nothing to her when he hears about them.
15 If he, however, nullifies them some time after he hears about them, then he is responsible for her guilt.
16 These are the statutes Yahweh gave Mosheh concerning relationships between a man and his wife, and between a father and his young daughter still living in his house.

You must purify your self always because you will always be unclean:

96 Anyone who touches or eats the carcass of an unclean animal becomes unclean.
Leviticus 11:8,24—
8 their meat you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. they are unclean to you.
24 And by these you will make yourself become unclean: whoever touches the carcass of any of them will be unclean until sunset.
See also: Lev 11 Deut 14
97 Anyone who touches or eats the carcass of a clean animal that dies of itself, or is torn by wild animals becomes unclean.
Leviticus 11:39-40—
39 If an animal you are allowed to eat dies, he who touches its carcass shall be unclean until sunset.
40 Anyone who eats of its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until sunset. He also who carries its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until sunset.
Leviticus 17:15—
Anyone, whether he is a native of your own country or a stranger, who eats anything found dead, or torn by wild animals, he shall both wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until sunset; then he shall be clean.
See also: Ex 22:31 Lev 17:15-16 Deut 14:21
98 Articles that come in contact with sources of uncleanness become unclean.
Leviticus 11:32,34—
32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, shall be unclean; whether an item of wood, clothing, skin, or sack, whatever item it is that is used in work, it must be put in water. And it shall be unclean until sunset; then it shall be clean.
34 any food that could be eaten, but has water on it from such a vessel, is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean.
Leviticus 15:12—
A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water.
See also: Lev 11:31-38 Lev 7:19 Num 19:15-18
Num 31:19-23
99 Menstruous women are unclean.
Leviticus 15:19-24—
19 when a woman’s flow of blood; niddah, zavah, has ended, she will continue in her impurity for seven days. Anyone who touches her during this time will be unclean until sunset.
20 Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean.
21 Whoever touches her bed, must wash his clothes, and bathe with water, and he will be unclean until sunset.
22 Whoever touches anything she sits on, must wash his clothes, and bathe with water, and he will be unclean until sunset.
23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean until sunset.
24 If a man lies with her, and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.
100 Women after childbirth are unclean.
Leviticus 12:2-5—
2 Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; If a woman has conceived, and gives birth to a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her monthly period, she shall be unclean.
3 On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin must be circumcised.
4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three more days. She shall not touch any holy thing; qodesh, nor come into any consecrated place; miqqedash, until the days of her purification are over: for a total of forty days.
5 However, if she gives birth to a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, fourteen days, as in her monthly period; and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six more days: for a total of eighty days.
101 Anyone with a spreading skin disease is unclean.
Leviticus 13:2-3—
2 When anyone has a swelling, or a rash, or a bright spot on his skin that may become an infectious skin disease like leprosy, then he shall be brought to Aaron the priest, or to one of his sons, the priests.
3 The priest shall look at the sore on the skin of the body; and if the hair on the sore has turned white, and the sore appears deeper than the rest of his skin, it is an infectious skin disease. When the priest examines him, he shall pronounce him unclean.
See also: Lev 13:2-46 Lev 14:2-32
102 Any clothing contaminated with a spreading disease is unclean.
Leviticus 13:47,50-51—
47 And if any clothing is contaminated with mildew: woolen or linen clothing,
50 The priest is to examine the mildew, and isolate the article in question for seven days.
51 on the seventh day he is to re-examine it, and if the mildew has spread in the clothing, in the woven or knitted material, or in the leather, whatever its use, it is a destructive mildew; the article is unclean.
See also: Lev 13:47-59
103 A house contaminated by a spreading disease is unclean.
Leviticus 14:34,44—
34 When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put a spreading mildew in a house in that land,
44 Then the priest is to go and examine it again, and if the mildew has spread in the house, it is a destructive mildew; the house is unclean.
See also: Lev 14:34-57
104 A man having an abnormal discharge is unclean.
Leviticus 15:2—
Speak to the children of Israyl, and say to them; when any man has a discharge, the discharge is unclean.
See also: Lev 15:2-15
105 Anyone or anything coming into contact with semen becomes unclean.
Leviticus 15:16-18—
16 when any man has an emission of semen, then he shall bathe all his body in water, and he will be unclean until sunset.
17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean until sunset.
18 When a man lies with a woman, and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean until sunset.
106 A woman with an abnormal discharge is unclean.
Leviticus 15:19, 25-28—
19 when A woman’s flow of blood; niddah, zavah, has ended, she will continue in her impurity for seven days. Anyone who touches her during this time will be unclean until sunset.
25 When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period; zavah, or has a discharge that continues beyond her period; zavah, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge. She will be unclean just as in the days of her period.
26 Any bed she lies on, while her discharge continues, will be unclean: as her bed is during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, just as during her monthly period.
27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes, and bathe with water, and he will be unclean until sunset.
28 When her discharge has finally stopped, she must count off seven clear days; then she will be clean.
107 A human corpse and anyone who touches it is unclean.
Numbers 19:11-14—
11 He who touches the dead body of anyone shall be unclean seven days.
12 He must purify himself with the water of the red heifer on the third day and on the seventh day; then he will be clean. But if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean.
13 Whoever touches the dead body of anyone and fails to purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of Yahweh. That person shall be cut off from Israyl. He shall remain unclean, because the water of purification was not sprinkled on him. His uncleanness is still on him.
14 this is the law that applies when a person dies in a tent; anyone who enters the tent and anyone who is in it will be unclean for seven days,
See also: Num 19:11-16 Num 31:19-20
You have the following duties to your community:

171 Every male 20 years old and above must give half a shekel to The House of yahweh annually.
Exodus 30:12-16—
12 when you take the census of the children of israyl, to count them, each one must pay yahweh a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.
13 This is what everyone among those who are numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary; about 1/5 ounce. The half-shekel is an offering to Yahweh.
14 Everyone included among those who are numbered, being twenty years old and above, shall give an offering to Yahweh.
15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than half a shekel; giving an offering to Yahweh to make atonement for yourselves.
16 And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israyl, and shall appoint it for the service of the Tabernacle of Meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israyl in front of Yahweh, to make atonement for yourselves.
172 Listen to and Obey Yahweh’s Anointed Servant, the Overseer of The House of Yahweh.
Deuteronomy 18:15-19—
15 yahweh your father will raise up for you a prophet, like me, from the midst of your own brothers. him you must listen to.
16 For this is what you asked of Yahweh at Horeb, on the day you gathered together, saying: Let us not hear the voice of Yahweh our Father, nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.
17 Then Yahweh said to me: What they have spoken is the truth.
18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him.
19 Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.
173 The king must be appointed by Yahweh.
Deuteronomy 17:15—
Then be sure you set a king over you whom yahweh your father chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. He must not be a foreigner who is not your brother.
174 Listen to and Obey Yahweh’s Anointed Priests (The Body of Elders of The House of Yahweh under the direction of the Overseer of The House of Yahweh).
Deuteronomy 17:9-11—
9 Go to the priests, who are Levites, and to the judge who is in office at that time. Ask for their decision, and they will give you the sentence of judgment.
10 You must act according to the sentence they pronounce for you at the place Yahweh chooses. Be careful to do all they order you to do.
11 according to the law they teach you, you shall do, and according to the decisions they give you, you shall do. You must not turn aside to the right hand nor to the left from the sentence they pronounce for you.
See also: Deut 17:8-13
175 Speak the truth when testifying in a lawsuit or an investigation.
Exodus 23:2—
Do not follow the crowd in doing evil. when you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd.
176 The priests and their assistants must be chosen by Yahweh.
Deuteronomy 16:18—
you must appoint judges and officers in all the cities Yahweh your Father gives you, from each of your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.
See also: Ex 18:19-26 Deut 1:13-17 Acts 1:20-26 Acts 6:1-7
177 The Priests of The House of Yahweh, chosen by Yahweh, must judge the people impartially according to Yahweh’s Laws.
Leviticus 19:15—
Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great. in righteousness you shall judge your brother fairly.
See also: Is 11:3-4 Yech 44:23-24
178 Whoever is aware of sin or of evidence in a case must speak up and testify.
Leviticus 5:1—
if a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge, to testify regarding something he has seen, or knows about: he will be held responsible;
179 The testimony of witnesses shall be examined thoroughly by the Priests.
Deuteronomy 13:14—
then you must inquire, probe, and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proven that such an abomination was committed among you.
See also: Deut 19:18
180 False witnesses shall be judged according to the Law.
Deuteronomy 19:19—
Then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. In this way you must purge the evil from among you.
See also: Matt 7:1-5
181 When a person is found murdered, and the murderer is unknown, the prescribed procedure must be performed.
Deuteronomy 21:1-9—
1 If anyone is found slain, lying in a field in the land Yahweh your Father is giving you to possess, and it is not known who killed him,
2 Then your elders and your judges shall go out, and measure the distance from the body to the neighboring cities.
3 Then the elders of the city nearest the body shall take a heifer that has never been worked, and which has not pulled with a yoke;
4 And lead her down to a valley that has not been plowed or planted, and where there is a flowing stream. There, in the valley, they are to break the heifer’s neck.
5 The priests, the sons of Levi, shall come near, for Yahweh your Father has chosen them to minister, and to pronounce blessings in the Name of Yahweh, and to decide all cases of controversy and assault.
6 Then all the elders of the city nearest the body shall wash their hands over the heifer, whose neck was broken in the valley,
7 And they shall declare: Our hands did not shed this blood, nor did our eyes see it done.


You have the following duties to your fellow men:


194 Stolen property must be returned to its owner.
Leviticus 6:2-5—
2 If a person sins and commits a trespass against Yahweh, by lying to his brother about what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or about a pledge, or about a robbery, or if he has deceived and extorted from his brother,
3 Or if he has found what was lost and lies concerning it, or vows falsely; in any one of these things a man may do: sinning;
4 Then it shall be, because he has sinned and is guilty, that he shall restore what he has stolen; or the thing which he has deceitfully obtained, or what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or the lost thing which he found:
5 For all he has vowed falsely about, he shall restore its full value, adding one-fifth more to it, and giving it to whomever it belongs on the day of his trespass offering.
195 The poor must be taken care of according to Yahweh’s Laws.
Deuteronomy 15:8,11—
8 But you must be openhanded to him, and willingly lend him enough of whatever he needs.
11 But the poor will never cease from the land. Therefore I command you, saying: You shall open wide your hand to your poor and needy brother in your land.
See also: Lev 25:35-36
196 When a Hebrew slave goes free the owner must give him gifts.
Deuteronomy 15:12-14,18—
12 If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, sells himself to you, or is sold to you, and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you must let him go free from you.
13 And when he is released from you, you must not let him go away empty-handed;
14 You must supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. what yahweh has blessed you with, you are to give him.
18 It must not seem like a hardship to you when you set him free from you, for he has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand these six years. Then Yahweh your Father will bless you in all that you do.
See also: Lev 25:39-42 Ex 21:2-6
197 Loans to brothers must be without interest.
Exodus 22:25—
if you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest.
198 Loans to a foreigner may be with interest.
Deuteronomy 23:20—
you may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your brother you must not charge interest, so that Yahweh your Father may bless you in all that you set your hand to do, in the land you are entering to possess.
199 Restore a pledge for a loan to its owner if he needs it.
Deuteronomy 24:12-13—
12 If the man is poor, you must not hold his cloak; security, overnight.
13 You must, in this case, return his cloak to him before the sun goes down, so he may sleep in his own garment. Then he will bless you, and it shall be accounted to you as righteousness in front of Yahweh your Father.
200 Pay the hired worker his wages at the agreed time.
Deuteronomy 24:14-15—
14 Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether one of your brothers or one of the strangers living in your cities.
15 pay him his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and is counting on it. Otherwise, he just might cry out to Yahweh against you, and you will be guilty of sin.
201 Permit the poor to eat of the produce of the vineyard or the standing grain.
Deuteronomy 23:24-25—
24 when you enter into your brother’s vineyard, you may eat all the grapes you please, but you must not put any in any container.
25 When you enter into your brother’s standing grain, you may pick kernels with your hands, but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain.
202 Help a stranger who has a fallen animal.
Exodus 23:5—
if you see the donkey of someone who hates you lying under its burden, and you might refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.
203 Help a brother who has a fallen animal.
Deuteronomy 22:4—
You shall not see your brother’s donkey or his ox fallen on the road, and ignore it. be sure to help it get to its feet.
204 Lost property must be restored to its owner.
Deuteronomy 22:1—
You shall not see your brother’s ox or his sheep straying away, and ignore it. be sure to take it back to your brother.
See also: Deut 22:1-3 Ex 23:4
205 Those who sin must be corrected.
Leviticus 19:17—
You shall not hate your brother or your sister in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt.
206 Love your neighbor, whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself.
Leviticus 19:18—
Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your brother or your sister as yourself. I am Yahweh.
207 Love the stranger and the new convert among you.
Leviticus 19:34—
The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt, I am Yahweh.
See also: Deut 10:19
208 Use only honest weights and measures.
Leviticus 19:36—
you shall have honest balances, honest weights, an honest ephah; a dry measure, and an honest hin; a liquid measure. I am Yahweh your Father Who brought you out of the land of Egypt;


You have the following responsibilities to your slaves, employees, workers etc:

232 Hebrew slaves must be treated according to the special laws for them.
Exodus 21:2-6—
2 if you buy a hebrew slave, he may serve you for six years. but in the seventh year he shall go out free without paying anything.
3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go out with him.
4 If his owner has given him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her owner, and the man shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant plainly says; I love my owner, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,
6 Then his owner shall bring him to the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost, and pierce his ear through with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
See also: Deut 15:12-18 Lev 25:39-43
See also: Reconsidering Yahweh’s Laws of Slavery and Marriage Obligations
233 The owner, or his son, may marry his Hebrew maidservant.
Exodus 21:8-9—
8 if she does not please her owner, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to strangers, because he has broken faith with her.
9 If he has betrothed her to his son, he shall grant her the rights of a daughter.
234 If the owner, or his son, does not marry his Hebrew maidservant, he must allow her father to redeem her.
Exodus 21:8—
if she does not please her owner, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to strangers, because he has broken faith with her.
235 The regulation of the foreign slaves.
Leviticus 25:44-46—
44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the sojourners living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 you may take them as an inheritance to will to your children after you; they shall be your permanent slaves. But your brothers, the children of Israyl, you shall not rule over one another ruthlessly.

KunleOshob:

Nobody is condenming tithes payers apart from the fact that they stand a risk of cutting themselves off the grace of christ[galatians 5:4] if they are tithing as a result of compulsion preached from the law i.e malachi 3:10. However our more severe complaints is against these criminally inspired so -called men of God who are imposing on people what God does NOT require of christians all becos of their greedy desires, that apart the other danger of this tithe doctrine is that "believers" feel they have done their christian duty by paying tithes[which jesus did not instruct] whilst ignoring the direct instructions of Jesus christ to help the needy. Helping the less priviledge is a major and central focus of christianity but today due to the greed of our so called christian leaders they are more interested in you giving everything to the church so they relegate the need to teach giving to the poor[which is our mandated christian duty] to the background.

It's alright to have 'severe complaints' against those whom you described above: we're all concerned about fraud and all such things. But no one needs to argue against tithes if even you can acknowledge you've nothing against tithers; so why this needless sung about being cut off from Christ, when no-one is saying they are tithing based on the Levitical law? We've lost count of the number of times that those who genuinely tithe have said they do so freely and cheerfully without any sense of compulsion or greed. Also, you stated sometime ago that "it is perfectly okay" to tithe if a Christian "knows the truth about tithes and he is tithing or giving whatever percentage of his income to the church out of his own desire to contribute to the church," abi? That is what tithers have been saying consistently - that they do so out of their own desire. It seems that is not sufficient, and anti-tithers would still seek to be derisive at those who choose to tithe.

Sometime ago you acknowledged that people who defraud believers use all kinds of other means and terms, including seed sowing, sacrificial offering, faith offering, first fruits, etc (if I remember well). At least, we know that the NT speaks about 'seed sowing'; and if these fraudsters have also used that, why are anti-tithers not condemning it as well?

Helping the needy is not the only or more important aspect of our Christian giving. Did Christ not ordain giving to those who preach the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 9:14?  What about godly elders - from where are their salaries for ministry to come if we pay less attention to this aspect (1 Tim. 5:16-17)? Many anti-tithers who do not like to hear about "Christian duty" in giving a percentage of our income to support the Church, are yet the same folks who make other types of giving a "duty" in Christianity. Who's now turning giving into an "obligation"?

And yes, you've quoted Jeremiah 8 repeatedly and yet it's not helping your complaints. Perhaps you need to apply your usual logic and understand Jeremiah was not complaining against tithes/tithers at all.

kantoma:

I think even as "Zombees" as we are, could someone tell me that we would be rejected by God and be sent to hell for the giving of 10% of our income to God? And if what we are doing is not a sin, then what's all these fuzz about?

kantoma

I do not think you are a Zombie and neither have I said so. I have also never said a person will be rejected by God or for that matter be sent to hell(!) simply because they "tithe".

If you've been reading carefully, fairly and objectively, you will see that I posted the following earlier on:

We who argue against the modern teaching of "tithing" acknowledge and accept that a Christian can voluntarily choose to "tithe" (including giving it in the form of money to a church) - preferably when s/he knows that it is not compulsory and s/he is not coerced or manipulated into doing it.

So I have no problem with it if you choose to "tithe". I have the following questions for you though:

1. Do you believe that you have a duty as a Christian to "tithe"?

2. Do you agree that you have the freedom not to "pay" your "tithes" into your church or into any "church"?

3. Do you agree that you have the freedom to give/pay your "tithes" instead to widows or poor people or similar charity?

4. Do you agree that you can decide say one month to spend your "tithes" on whatsoever your heart please?

seyenko:

i think there is really no point in arguing about this issue, if you believe in the old order then you must obey the 613 laws of moses in leviticus, deutoromony and numbers. You will have to stone adulters to death, you will have to stay indoors on saturday and not on sunday so that you keep the sabbath holy.

@seyenko,

Please tell us: how many tithers have you read in this thread saying that they give their tithes based on the "old order"? It seems you are too eager to just make a case where you can't defend it. So, what then - if we don't believe in the old order, then we have to stop giving any percentage of our income as Christians, abi?

First of all, please drop the farce of a "613" laws of Moses - if you carefully read your Bible, you as a Christian will find that the commandments and laws (the mitzvot/mitzvahs) contained in the Mosaic Law are more than "613". They are variously expressed expressed in the OT as -
      * ordinances,
      * commandments,
      * laws,
      * statutes,
      * precepts,
      * judgements,
. . and several other terms in various verses. The number "613" is an arbitrary number chosen by Jewish scholars based on Maimonides' enumeration (365 negative commandments, corresponding to the number of days in a solar year, and 248 positive commandments, ascribed to the number of bones and significant organs in the human body). Another thing you will notice is that several of those commandments enumerated are repeated as if they are different from those already stated.

When people often make this excuse of writing off tithing as always and only of the Law or "old order", they often forget that once they throw ALL the commandments away, there's nothing left of their own Christianity. Go through your list and see if there are not so many of them that are part of the Christian faith. And what happens if you select some and throw the rest away - is that not selective reading?

Relax, nobody has said that their tithing is based on the "old order", and your exercise at best was unnecessary.

Cheers.

2 Corinthians 9:10 (King James Version)

10Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Am I missing something here PG.1?

Jesus enjoined us to give unlike the pharisees
The poor, orphans and widows didn't have to tithe though today's "churches" will swiftly take the last dime of a poor widow or orphan in the name of seed sowing.
There is no rejection or condemnation of those on the opposite isle of this thread.
I don't know that you can choose to do something that is "required" or "mandated"
We happen to be Christians who love Jesus and refuse to be "instructed" on how/when to giveAnyone who thinks the devil is not inside some "churches" need to stop deluding themselves, look at our Lord's prayer and compare it to some you hear/see, some of them sounds like ogun incantations if you ask me

abose:

I don't know that you can choose to do something that is "required" or "mandated"

In fact from what I have seen most of those who have supported tithing on this thread and the overwhelming majority of those who support tithing do so on the premise or assumption that it is compulsory ---- and that it must be paid into "church" and some even add the more insidious "it must be from your gross not your net".

You only have to look at the very first post on this very thread here:  What the tithe really means

Thus I will keep repeating those questions on whether they believe they have the freedom not to "pay" "tithes" into a/their "church".

@abose,

abose:

2 Corinthians 9:10 (King James Version)

10Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Am I missing something here PG.1?

Please tell me, because apart from quoting it, you haven't said anything. I have several translations and versions of the Bible in my library and could have done the same. So please, tell us what you're missing, biko.

abose:

Jesus enjoined us to give unlike the pharisees
The poor, orphans and widows didn't have to tithe though today's "churches" will swiftly take the last dime of a poor widow or orphan in the name of seed sowing.

Ah, I see - was that a desperate detour? The reason I'm asking is that nobody has been discussing the pharisees here with you; so what necessitates your bringing in that one here? And did I ever say anywhere that widows or orphans were commanded to tithe anywhere?

abose:

There is no rejection or condemnation of those on the opposite isle of this thread.

No, but they are not at peace with themselves until they deride others with "delusion", no?

abose:

I don't know that you can choose to do something that is "required" or "mandated"

Oh, you don't? I see. You want us to go into that one yet again? I'll gladly oblige you - just indicate a 'yes', and let's see how much of it you obey

abose:

We happen to be Christians who love Jesus and refuse to be "instructed" on how/when to give.

Good one - which is why you don't need instruction from the Bible. I don talk am plenty times: since you are too good and high above others so that you don't need to dialogue with them, what's the point being reactive and restless over what others are finding to cheerfully obey in God's Word?

abose:

Anyone who thinks the devil is not inside some "churches" need to stop deluding themselves, look at our Lord's prayer and compare it to some you hear/see, some of them sounds like ogun incantations if you ask me

Hehe, broderly. . shé na tithes we dey discuss - abi we don leave dat one now to begin anoda wahala with whether churches get devil or not? Wetin bring 'ogun incantation' inside tithe again? haba!

Todak,

Sorry that I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know whether or not you have gotten the message yet.

The matter of fact is that the tithe is from the Old Testament. Jesus says, "I give you a new testament love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And love your brother as yourself." The Old Testament for the Jews is abolished.

This isn't to say that tithing is bad. Tithing is good for supporting the needs of the church, and seeing that you are most likely a pastor from Nigeria I see that funding is of great importance to you. But tithing is something done of free will, as a fruit of the Holy Spirit within us. Not something we do since we are under the law.

Heck if I had the money I wouldn't be ashamed of giving 90% of my gross salary to the feet of Christ. But its not because I'm obliged to do it. It is because I want to do it. I do it because I love Christ.


----
As for the rest of you. Beware of wolves in sheep skin. One sure sign: Rich pastor, poor church.

pilgrim.1:

It's alright to have 'severe complaints' against those whom you described above: we're all concerned about fraud and all such things. But no one needs to argue against tithes if even you can acknowledge you've nothing against tithers; so why this needless sung about being cut off from Christ, when no-one is saying they are tithing based on the Levitical law? We've lost count of the number of times that those who genuinely tithe have said they do so freely and cheerfully without any sense of compulsion or greed. Also, you stated sometime ago that "it is perfectly okay" to tithe if a Christian "knows the truth about tithes and he is tithing or giving whatever percentage of his income to the church out of his own desire to contribute to the church," abi? That is what tithers have been saying consistently - that they do so out of their own desire. It seems that is not sufficient, and anti-tithers would still seek to be derisive at those who choose to tithe.

What you fail to realize is most people tithe because they have been mis-led and manipulated into believing that tithing is compulsary for them to practise as believers, if you want to be honest you would admit that most preachers preach tithes from malachi 3 which they then twist to mean money from income and they present it as compulsary and non negotiable for christians to practise they also utlize the curses and blessings in the passage to further intimidate and lure christians into parting with their money. As i have always said i have nothing against tithers infact i have pity for them as they are being defrauded on a regular basis and they think they are doing the will of God. it is the "compulsary" tithe preaching pastors that i detest.

pilgrim.1:

Sometime ago you acknowledged that people who defraud believers use all kinds of other means and terms, including seed sowing, sacrificial offering, faith offering, first fruits, etc (if I remember well). At least, we know that the NT speaks about 'seed sowing'; and if these fraudsters have also used that, why are anti-tithers not condemning it as well?

Whilst we condenm all methods used by these crooks to defraud christians we emphasize more on tithes becos this is the most instituitional fraud in christianity and the biggest established fraud in the history of mankind.

pilgrim.1:

And yes, you've quoted Jeremiah 8 repeatedly and yet it's not helping your complaints. Perhaps you need to apply your usual logic and understand Jeremiah was not complaining against tithes/tithers at all.

I quote Jeremiah 8 becos the reason why preachers twist the scriptures is clearly stated there which is greed and fraud. This would help christians better to understand the reason why food/ meat in malachi was twisted to mean money /income and why preachers preach tithing at all. It is all greed and the bible says so.

KunleOshob:

What you fail to realize is most people tithe because they have been mis-led and manipulated into believing that tithing is compulsary for them to practise as believers, if you want to be honest you would admit that most preachers preach tithes from malachi 3 which they then twist to mean money from income and they present it as compulsary and non negotiable for christians to practise they also utlize the curses and blessings in the passage to further intimidate and lure christians into parting with their money. As i have always said i have nothing against tithers infact i have pity for them as they are being defrauded on a regular basis and they think they are doing the will of God. it is the "compulsary" tithe preaching pastors that i detest.

Whilst we condenm all methods used by these crooks to defraud christians we emphasize more on tithes becos this is the most instituitional fraud in christianity and the biggest established fraud in the history of mankind.

I quote Jeremiah 8 becos the reason why preachers twist the scriptures is clearly stated there which is greed and fraud. This would help christians better to understand the reason why food/ meat in malachi was twisted to mean money /income and why preachers preach tithing at all. It is all greed and the bible says so.

kunle, how does this your shouting edify Christ or win the lost? you are such unbelievable human being. again i want to ask how old are you?

@Kunle,

I wonder what your real problem actually is. Let me ask: is there anything you personally gain from your inconsitent arguments? You're not making a balanced case for whatever you believe on this subject, and the same repetitions you make are really a put off. I say this in a kind manner and not engaging in a shouting match with anyone. So, please carefully consider your position.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

JJYOU:

kunle, how does this your shouting edify Christ or win the lost? you are such unbelievable human being. again i want to ask how old are you?

@JJYOU,
I was going to say nearly the same thing about edification after reading his, but you anticipated me. We all make mistakes - I've made the mistake as well of being drawn into such an unfruitful shouting monologue with him, and what benefit came off of that? No matter how many times one makes the same observation, it probably won't stick with him. Anyhow bros, enjoy your day and blessings in all you do.

KunleOshob:

What you fail to realize is most people tithe because they have been mis-led and manipulated into believing that tithing is compulsary for them to practise as believers, if you want to be honest you would admit that most preachers preach tithes from malachi 3 which they then twist to mean money from income and they present it as compulsary and non negotiable for christians to practise they also utlize the curses and blessings in the passage to further intimidate and lure christians into parting with their money. As i have always said i have nothing against tithers infact i have pity for them as they are being defrauded on a regular basis and they think they are doing the will of God. it is the "compulsary" tithe preaching pastors that i detest.

Whilst we condenm all methods used by these crooks to defraud christians we emphasize more on tithes becos this is the most instituitional fraud in christianity and the biggest established fraud in the history of mankind.

I quote Jeremiah 8 becos the reason why preachers twist the scriptures is clearly stated there which is greed and fraud. This would help christians better to understand the reason why food/ meat in malachi was twisted to mean money /income and why preachers preach tithing at all. It is all greed and the bible says so.

Now, while I haven't actually done a statistical test to determine what percentage of churches preach compulsory tithes, it seems to me that at least 90% of the churches that I am familiar with, probably 98% of nigerian pentecostal churches make a big deal of tithes as a compulsory matter.  And even those that do not say it is compulsory teach that there are special benefits to be accrued by the person tithing.  

Now, it could be that Pilgrim and others have not come into contact with these other churches that use tithes as a means of extortion.  That is possible which would mean that the 2 sides of the argument are coming from two very different experiences so there is no common ground on which they could both argue from.  
I tend towards siding with Kunle because my experience of churches using tithes to extort tallies with his, but I can accept the possibility that others have never come across churches that do this.  

JJYOU:

kunle, how does this your shouting edify Christ or win the lost? you are such unbelievable human being.  again i want to ask how old are you?

??  It always puzzles me that people can read a text and tell whether the text is shouting or whispering.  Some can tell the emotional state of the writer, probably even what he had for breakfast.  
Puzzling as that may be, it doesn't blow the mind so utterly as the blatant attempt to apply Ad Hominems by speculation.  Obviously one's age is considered to be relevant to whether one can speak intelligently or not.  Never heard of Old Fools, I guess.  What about the biblical adage . . .

Psalms 8:2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Those that God inspires he inspires and the matter of age does not come into it at all, stop trying to cheapen this argument.  Applying one's age to the validity of one's argument is an Ad Hominem and it is wrong.  Actually it turns around and exposes the person using it to be arguing without foundation.

I wonder how people who claim to be christians are comfortable with the reality that the word of God is being dis-torted to defraud christians which is a very grievious sin whilst the direct commandments of christ are vastly being ignored by these same charlatans who claim to be serving him. I love christ and the gospel he brought to mankind, it pains me that this beautiful gospel is being twisted for materail gain, it pains me that the name of our lord and saviour is being used to commit crimes against humanity and i cannot just sit down and accept it just becos it as become the norm or the people being swindled are not even aware they are being swindled. I am quite certain in my mind that if the church was obeying the teachings of christ they claim to serve, Nigeria would be a much better country to live in. But the problem is every body cares for themselves alone and the type of christianity being preached and practised is the selfish type unlike the selfless teachings of our lord and saviour. I believe it is my christian duty to speak up against this evil going on in the church[even if it doesn't edify them] The church must be restored to true christianity and peoples eyes must be opened. We as christians need to start focusing more on the direct teachings of christ[from the gospels] rather than the twisted version that is preached on the pulpit

KunleOshob:

What you fail to realize is most people tithe because they have been mis-led and manipulated into believing that tithing is compulsary for them to practise as believers,

And your point is. . .? If you're going to be honest, the fact that some people tithe because they assume it is compulsory does not warrant your shouting against tithes every time the word is mentioned. That attitude is unhealthy. A better approach is to encourage people to tithe without arguing the "compulsory" mantra every time - afterall, those of us who have been sharing about why we choose to tithe have made it clear that we do so out of our own voluntray and happy will, and because we're informed about its meaning and blessings. If that is clear, why keep repeating the same thing so many times as if you didn't see it the first time?

KunleOshob:

if you want to be honest you would admit that most preachers preach tithes from malachi 3 which they then twist to mean money from income and they present it as compulsary and non negotiable for christians to practise

Let me ask you: are you not the same fellow who actually said tithing "is perfectly okay" for the Christian, as I quoted above earlier? Did you reason about whether it was money  or any other thing before making it "perfectly okay"? Malachi is not your problem - this complaint is becoming more an excuse to be as many times inconsitent as you can afford to be. Many people have abused nearly all the verses in the Bible - why not for the same reason condemn ALL other verses just because they are being abused?

KunleOshob:

they also utlize the curses and blessings in the passage to further intimidate and lure christians into parting with their money.

Unhealthy repetition. Look for another excuse.

KunleOshob:

As i have always said i have nothing against tithers infact i have pity for them as they are being defrauded on a regular basis and they think they are doing the will of God. it is the "compulsary" tithe preaching pastors that i detest.

No, rather you're not at peace with yourself that is why you feel pity for others who choose to tithe. They don't beg you for money to tithe, they don't drag you to tithe, they do not take out of your personal property - so what is this cark about feeling "sorry"  for them? Are you so unaware that many tithers are quite informed about fraudsters with a 'pastor' badge? That such abuses occur in every place does not mean we should stop tithing.  Please refrain from this excuse - we have heard it so many times now that it makes one feel you're running out of steam to make any meaning contribution to the subject.

KunleOshob:

Whilst we condenm all methods used by these crooks to defraud christians we emphasize more on tithes becos this is the most instituitional fraud in christianity and the biggest established fraud in the history of mankind.

That's not true - you need to do your research properly. The number of people who tithe is a mere decimal compared to those who are anti-tithers - in the Church! YET, it is well established that even when fewer Christians tithe, the fraud you complain about has trebled! Read up the findings of the Barna group, and you will see the fact. Since this debate spilled about tithing, all that the anti-tithers have achieved is discourage people believers from giving to further the Gospel - Christian giving has not increased, but decreased! Yet, televangelists have used other methods to multiply their wealth! What are anti-tithers doing about that?

KunleOshob:

I quote Jeremiah 8 becos the reason why preachers twist the scriptures is clearly stated there which is greed and fraud.

False - Jeremiah 8 has nothing to do with tithes. You only quoted it as a weapon against others simply because you're not seeking to be reasonable.

KunleOshob:

This would help christians better to understand the reason why food/ meat in malachi was twisted to mean money /income and why preachers preach tithing at all. It is all greed and the bible says so.

So, tell us: since you are persuaded that tithing should not be money, what type of tithing did you say is "perfectly okay" (whatever percentage of his income, as you said)? We want to know the type that you make a perfectly okay matter while quarrelling against money tithes.

JJYOU:

kunle, how does this your shouting edify Christ or win the lost? you are such unbelievable human being.  again i want to ask how old are you?

After thinking about this further, I've come to realise that it is quite a gem.  A perfectly circular way of reasoning.  Starting with the argument, we consider that such a poor argument can only be made by someone who is immature.  So we determine the person's age to be quite young.  If we then establish the age to be young we can then apply the ad hominem and say 'ah, small boy, no wonder he makes such poor arguments.  

And of course if we find the guy to be older than us then he is an agbaya.

Pastor AIO:

After thinking about this further, I've come to realise that it is quite a gem. A perfectly circular way of reasoning. Starting with the argument, we consider that such a poor argument can only be made by someone who is immature. So we determine the person's age to be quite young. If we then establish the age to be young we can then apply the ad hominem and say 'ah, small boy, no wonder he makes such poor arguments.

And of course if we find the guy to be older than us then he is an agbaya.

Lol, nope - let's not go there. He's neither 'small' nor 'agbaya'. Either ways, it does not really add to the substance of the discussion, you no agree? So, we should all adjust and discourage the [i]ad hominem[/i]s. . . which is (perhaps) what I read in yours.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

Now, while I haven't actually done a statistical test to determine what percentage of churches preach compulsory tithes, it seems to me that at least 90% of the churches that I am familiar with, probably 98% of nigerian pentecostal churches make a big deal of tithes as a compulsory matter.  And even those that do not say it is compulsory teach that there are special benefits to be accrued by the person tithing.  

Now, it could be that Pilgrim and others have not come into contact with these other churches that use tithes as a means of extortion.  That is possible which would mean that the 2 sides of the argument are coming from two very different experiences so there is no common ground on which they could both argue from.  
I tend towards siding with Kunle because my experience of churches using tithes to extort tallies with his, but I can accept the possibility that others have never come across churches that do this.  

It is not quite wholesome to make such generalizations. I've once argued against tithing before I had a rethink after seeing that so many of the arguments used against it are mere rhetorics which cannot be sustained when closely examined. This is why you will find that so many people who make anti-tithing assertions cannot defend what they say when questioned.

On the whole, I'm very well informed about what is going on about the means of extortion that many people use - it is NOT limited to tithes, and the other means are by far the most employed for the same effect. The only reason why many people assume that we don't know this is because they haven't done their research properly - and in most cases, they don't even know what is going on in the real world. This is the reason why I often leave verifiable pointers when I discuss this issue (as I did here).

Cheers.

JJYOU:

kunle, how does this your shouting edify Christ or win the lost? you are such unbelievable human being.  again i want to ask how old are you?

I am really sick of this your rants, if you really want to know my age perhaps you should meet me in person then you would be able to confirm. If you stay in Lagos i would be willing to oblidge you an appointment and lets see if you would be able to look me in the face.

KunleOshob:

I am really sick of this your rants, if you really want to know my age perhaps you should meet me in person then you would be able to confirm. If you stay in Lagos i would be willing to oblidge you an appointment and lets see if you would be able to look me in the face.

Wetin you wear for face wey person no fit look you?

pilgrim.1:

Wetin you wear for face wey person no fit look you?

Internet discussion forums are mostly anonimous and that is why children like you and jjyou find it easy to insult people i am quite certain that he can't look me in the face and say all the rubbish he writes here.

KunleOshob:

Internet discussion forums are mostly anonimous and that is why children like you and jjyou find it easy to insult people i am quite certain that he can't look me in the face and say all the rubbish he writes here.

There's no need for the ad hominem - that has been said again and again (just recently in Pastor AIO's again). There's no need for that. If you have something healthy to give, regardless whatever you call people, just make your point and please be consistent in what you say. That way, people can be benefitted and edified. Let's not be drawn again into this unnecessary banter that you seem to like. Shalom.