What have you guys dabbled into now? Well I agree with all being said I have read a book on LTCM but this one is Inventing money: the story of long term capital management and the legends behind it; its not that these guys were not smart enough that they made a huge bet against the Russian market which was eventually correct but the short time horizon of their position is what killed their fund as they had little or no liquidity to cover huge margin payment and their leverage positions. Lets not forget that warren buffet could have bailed them out (by providing funds for margin payments...I think) but its only God that know why he did not; and in their hay day they were the pride of hedge funds. Its not all doom and gloom for these quants wizards (that's what I call them), the really good ones i mean, as pointed out by this book, More Money than God- Hedge funds and the making of a new elite (a really good read though I think its blasphemous though). They make really good return when they do and also make bad returns too (isn't that the story of life); Word on the street is that soros made over £3bn in a couple of days during the peak of the Greek crises. I think the problem is that these guys can predict mispricing but do not have models to predict when they would correct which is ultimately caused by human behaviour.

I might have waffled though..loool, our geniuses in the house please feel free to correct me.

Hedge Funds fail, it is the risk you bear for the returns you get!...But history has shown that 86% of fund mangers who pick their stocks based on fundamentals always fail to beat the market anyway. Despite this people employing dozens of accountants and CFAs to sniff through financial statements! This probably further highlights why wall street Giants like Goldman Sachs fail to commit so much resource to fundamental stock picking like they do on their Quant stuff...and people wonder why they just don't seem to ever get broke.

[/quote]

Every investment bank and asset manager has its own investment principle and strategies for managing investments. The fact is that most wall street banks make their windfalls from proprietary trading but I want to believe that they all explore available tactics - quant strategies, fundamental analysis, tax-aware strategies etc depending on what works for them and the capability of the personnels involved. There are a myriad of investment tactics and strategies to make money and wall street banks explore them that is why Goldman and others are among the top 10 highest employers of CFA charter holders/candidates (it is wrong to say CFAs) http://www.cfainstitute.org/about/pages/facts_and_statistics.aspx
because they know the value of the designation. To be frank, I will say that the CFA program covers more complex option and investment strategies than any graduate program in quant finance and it is easier to understand these complex option strategies in the CFA program than in a typical quant finance graduate program. Of course the CFA program does not cover the implementation of these strategies in a programming environment which is outside its scope.

Wow I blink for a week and this is what happens, this thread has gone so deep into analysis I fear there is nothing I have to say that hasn't been said and there is a lot I have to pick up and learn. Since I'm going along the quant path anyway violent and RixExpat are straight-up my mentors, I'm sorry candylips but as you are off to chop oyel money now it's best I follow my egbons still true to the industry (we have gone too far to go back to just relying on fundamental analysis alone, else you would be crushed in the short run by all the rocket scientists in the markets reeling in the major profit; like saying because the new version of a software has a bug we should all go back to the previous version, the only way forward is to try to fix the bugs and add extra features in the next version). I have read on many sites that a quant really does not need a CFA to do his/her job as violent said, but I feel knowledge is not lost taking the program anyway and it would definitely make some aspects of the work easier(as RixEpat suggested on the coverage of complex option and investment strategies).

RixExpat:
Every investment bank and asset manager has its own investment principle and strategies for managing investments. The fact is that most wall street banks make their windfalls from proprietary trading but I want to believe that they all explore available tactics - quant strategies, fundamental analysis, tax-aware strategies etc depending on what works for them and the capability of the personnels involved.

In addition to these. These guys are market makers so they make profits from spreads. They also do internal crossing of trades and pocket the commission meant for the exchange or broker.

These are just some of the many tricks these guys use to boost profit.

violent:

I dare say this opinion is not completely accurate!..Maths and Programming are inseparable! If you are employed as a "Quant" in most financial houses, the knowledge of programming is requisite (in the very least VBA)!..You can't simply claim to be good at mathematics. Anyone can have great maths ideas, but the most important part of your job as a mathematician is being able to bring your ideas into a portfolio in a way that maximizes the risk-return trade off. Of what good is anyone that can only work out algebra on paper? Get on Matlab son!

You are correct. But my argument was that a math geninus is better utilized doing maths.


From my experience there are dudes that work as Quant researchers/analysts and there are other dudes that work as Quant developers.

Here is how it works

A maths dude working as a Quant researcher/Analyst comes up with a model . . he probably backtests in VBA/Mathlab/Mathematica or R to ensure his assumptions are correct. Once he is satisfied he passes it on to the Quant development team. These are dudes who are expert C++/Java programmers but mathematically inclined. they convert his model into efficient algorithms. They ensure the algos are well optimized to support low latency . . etc

A third eye check is done by the risk management team. composed of maths,computer and finance geeks. They perform their due diligence i.e stress testing, scenerio analysis etc


All these guys from Research to Risk management can say they are "Quants" but the pure Quants are the maths dudes

violent:

Yes you are correct!..Models are an estimation, but what makes them useful above all else is the fact that they are completely devoid of emotions or the typical herding behavior humans are hard wired to follow. Ask any wall street analyst worth his salt to give you a detailed analysis of the market crash and property bubbles and you'd be surprised at the genius of such fellow's views, you shouldn't also be surprised if the same fellow tells you next year about why gold must have been overpriced this year ---Humans he?.. we only seem to know so much about the events after the events had actually taken place, models don't work that way!

...i have met fund managers who bought stocks because they have a friend who worked at the company, ignoring all common sense in the process of doing so!

Bros haba now .

So why didn't these grand mathematical equations predict the burst . Why did Lehman go burst with billions of worthless Credit default swaps obligitions. Why didn't their mathematical models predict the wahala of the US housing crisis.

Bros . even models don't have a clue of an impending disaster and it is only when u look backwards that the model might tell u something different.

The reason is because when you have statistics and probability as the building blocks of your model, then you only get to make decisions based on historical data. For example historical data prior to 2007 didn't tell anyone that US mortgage owners will not be able to pay their mortgage (even though instinct tells you something different when u see people struggling with 3/4 jobs just to pay their mortgage)

violent:

Sound mathematical trading models at least understand that the market can stay inefficient for short terms and individuals can profit from such opportunities. Mathematical models can at least understand that maintaining a delta neutral portfolio while trading gamma effectively can be a smart way to profit from swinging markets --- which always swings as someone is always thinking "OMG, Europe is going burst" "North America is getting downgraded again" "China is going broke" "The world is gonna end and we are all gonna die" --- All these sentiments will always bring inefficiencies to the market and the smart quant alogs --- that have been designed by some cursed kids, to trade millions of positions with micro ticks-- will keep bringing in profits to their owners!

Please go and read LTCM. these guys had delta neutral positions, took arbitrage positions on bonds, interest rate swaps etc

The fundamental problem with these trading strategies is that they require you to take a huge leveraged position in other to make any sensible profit. And when you take such a leveraged position as the dudes in LTCM(pls refer to the book). You are susceptible to any major market events like the burst of 2008

tobbi1310: Wow I blink for a week and this is what happens, this thread has gone so deep into analysis I fear there is nothing I have to say that hasn't been said and there is a lot I have to pick up and learn. Since I'm going along the quant path anyway violent and RixExpat are straight-up my mentors, I'm sorry candylips but as you are off to chop oyel money now it's best I follow my egbons still true to the industry (we have gone too far to go back to just relying on fundamental analysis alone, else you would be crushed in the short run by all the rocket scientists in the markets reeling in the major profit; like saying because the new version of a software has a bug we should all go back to the previous version, the only way forward is to try to fix the bugs and add extra features in the next version). I have read on many sites that a quant really does not need a CFA to do his/her job as violent said, but I feel knowledge is not lost taking the program anyway and it would definitely make some aspects of the work easier(as RixEpat suggested on the coverage of complex option and investment strategies).

Goodluck as you start your career in that space.

I had a fun time in the IB sector but didn't like the job volatility.

I guess i got to a point in my life where i valued job security and stability more

Every investment bank and asset manager has its own investment principle and strategies for managing investments. The fact is that most wall street banks make their windfalls from proprietary trading but I want to believe that they all explore available tactics - quant strategies, fundamental analysis, tax-aware strategies etc depending on what works for them and the capability of the personnels involved.

This is very true!

that is why Goldman and others are among the top 10 highest employers of CFA charter holders/candidates (it is wrong to say CFAs) http://www.cfainstitute.org/about/pages/facts_and_statistics.aspx
because they know the value of the designation. To be frank, I will say that the CFA program covers more complex option and investment strategies than any graduate program in quant finance and it is easier to understand these complex option strategies in the CFA program than in a typical quant finance graduate program. Of course the CFA program does not cover the implementation of these strategies in a programming environment which is outside its scope.

I refuse to be swayed by some brilliant marketing documents!...Citing the top 10 employers does not actually say anything about the value of the designation. I could very well argue that Goldman sachs may have hired thousands of CFA holders back in the early nineties when CFA was preached as the next best thing after shaving stick and may have refrained from hiring a single CFA holder in the last five years, yet their name could have still propped up as the top highest employers in this sector!

CFA institute should be called up on their ethics hotline on this cheeky survey meant to promote their own designation and also give prospective students a false impression that their would always be a place for them among the top employers listed. A friend of mine has just left UK for india after searching for jobs without success even though he already has completed all his three exams.

Additionally, i doubt if any serious person that engage in the use of options will rely on a CFA to handle such risky business except of course the CFA holder has a good background in derivatives. What the CFA teaches in its options course are information any du[i]m[/i]b individual could get on an internet blog!...The knowledge is just not sufficient to risk putting capital on it!...Option trading requires more than just knowing what a straddle is..you must be able to price your options VERY WELL. For instance, if you buy a straddle after a news flow expecting to profit from massive swings, chances are you are a mugu who has just paid too much for implied vol and you'd be shocked to find that even though the market did move in the way you expected, you are still making losses on your trade. The CFA does not teach those things!...The way it appears in the text is different from the street bruv, especially when derivatives are concerned.

So what exactly is the CFA useful for? It's useless in core quants!...it's biggest strength is likely in equity research and portfolio management and even in this, knowledge and experience from a sound finance MBA is still very much revered.

Bros haba now .

So why didn't these grand mathematical equations predict the burst . Why did Lehman go burst with billions of worthless Credit default swaps obligitions. Why didn't their mathematical models predict the wahala of the US housing crisis.

Bros . even models don't have a clue of an impending disaster and it is only when u look backwards that the model might tell u something different.

The reason is because when you have statistics and probability as the building blocks of your model, then you only get to make decisions based on historical data. For example historical data prior to 2007 didn't tell anyone that US mortgage owners will not be able to pay their mortgage (even though instinct tells you something different when u see people struggling with 3/4 jobs just to pay their mortgage)

I think we may have to clarify a bit more on the term "models".

A model could be as simply as taking an average of the students in a room to infer a statement on the general population of black Africans...or as complex as optimizing a quadratic objective function to take the best advantage of a short spike in volatility. In my experience, Quantitative managers tend to use the latter more than the former. They are mostly not concerned about predicting the "future" but instead, their focus is shifted on living and making a full use of the "present". Predicting the future is almost an impossible task and looking at history may only give you an idea not the complete picture.

As for those who employ predictive models (especially in risk management), it's mostly based on the time tested theory that models actually do learn from history!...humans don't!

tanimola22:


Lool, mean boy...Don't let the CFA folks hear this O..dem go fight gidigbo with you. Why trivialize their achievements.

T22

LOOL

I always enjoy watching people defend what they believe in!.....I think the CFA is a brilliant designation but i feel a Phd is more challenging. I'm not studying for a Phd yet, but o boy, i dey always bow for those guys who are into some quantitative Phd.

One girl was hired in my office recently with a Phd in Algebra ...she did her thesis on near rings and all kinds of weird stuff. I tell you, this girl can manipulate a 10 by 10 matrix in her head ...i dey always bow each time i pass hin desk!

here's the rank on my list.

1) Phd
2) Ivy League MBA
3) CFA

since number 1 is a bit too ambitious for my IQ, i'd be gunning for 2. A friend of mine thinks 3 is a nice extracurricular activity!

violent:

LOOL

I always enjoy watching people defend what they believe in!.....I think the CFA is a brilliant designation but i feel a Phd is more challenging. I'm not studying for a Phd yet, but o boy, i dey always bow for those guys who are into some quantitative Phd.

One girl was hired in my office recently with a Phd in Algebra ...she did her thesis on near rings and all kinds of weird stuff. I tell you, this girl can manipulate a 10 by 10 matrix in her head ...i dey always bow each time i pass hin desk!

here's the rank on my list.

1) Phd
2) Ivy League MBA
3) CFA

since number 1 is a bit too ambitious for my IQ, i'd be gunning for 2. A friend of mine thinks 3 is a nice extracurricular activity!

Wow, the lady is smart pieces..Nowadays, very few people do their theses on near ring theory. Near ring theory, although has two binary operations, is a subset of ring theory because it satisfies fewer axioms than ring theory.

More formally, we say a non empty set X is a near ring if X has two binary operations (plus and times) defined on it and, furthermore, if X satisfies the following axioms

1. X is a group

2. X is distributively associative


Do you think it is an optimal strategy to leave a job with a good pay for an ivy league MBA?

T22

Do you think it is an optimal strategy to leave a job with a good pay for an ivy league MBA?

I think this is an issue that will remain subjective to strong views whichever side of the argument you wish to be on. There's no clear optimal strategy, it all depends mostly on individual objectives and experience...and of course, what you define as "good pay". It will also depend on where you choose to develop your career for the long haul. In the UK, an MBA isn't really regarded as much as it is in the US. The quality of your work experience is a bigger factor for the UK.

But what would i choose?....I'd choose an Ivy League MBA in a heartbeat! For someone like me who's desperately ambitious and intends to spend some time in the US for the future, i believe this is very important for my career prospects. Not only is it guaranteed to open doors of opportunities, it's a fantastic way to develop some of finest leadership skills ever.

Coming back to the doors of opportunities, this spreadsheet made by some dude might interest you

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AndCUjb9VV86dHJLRW9nOG45U2lZZTRtTnFHWVdqclE&hl=en#gid=0

You don't go to Harvard for nothing! or Wharton! or Chicago Booth! or Stanford! ...the lowest you can earn as a basic salary after graduation is circa 120 grand. your bonus could be anything from 50% to 100% of your salary as an associate and from there, there's only one way you can go! While studying for your MBA, you can intern at some of these companies and get paid 10 - 15 grand a month.

Check out the profile of people working at Bain Capital

http://www.baincapital.com/Team/Default.aspx?viewType=ByAlpha&alphaStart=a&alphaEnd=d

Trust me, T22, if you get into a PE firm like that, you life will never remain the same (literary speaking)...those guys aren't earning junks like i stated earlier. They earn multiples of that! That's what it means to be a big boy! For me, more money has always been preferable to less.

violent:

A model could be as simply as taking an average of the students in a room to infer a statement on the general population of black Africans...or as complex as optimizing a quadratic objective function to take the best advantage of a short spike in volatility. In my experience, Quantitative managers tend to use the latter more than the former. They are mostly not concerned about predicting the "future" but instead, their focus is shifted on living and making a full use of the "present". Predicting the future is almost an impossible task and looking at history may only give you an idea not the complete picture.

Good so we are in agreement that mathematically trying to predict the future is just plan useless

We have also established that the what happens in the past is not a precursor to what is happening now or what will happen in d future

However i do agree with you on executing trading strategies making maximum use of what is happening at the moment.


But your example of volatility trading is slightly misleading

Volatility is a statistical measure therefore it relies on historical price data.

But i think you are referring to implied volatility in your post which is the volatilty factored into the current trading prices of options.

If you were referring to this then you don't need a

complex as optimizing a quadratic objective function

to profit from volatility swings. A simple STRADDLE or STRANGLE which you have talked about will make you a guaranteed profit

^^

Unfortunately i think i may be muddling a little too much in my post such that what i meant aren't actually clear. Taking the best advantage of short term volatility in this case refers to "not making" a loss as against "making a profit". So yeah, this objective function relies solely on historic vols but uses very sensitive measures of vol like a GARCH process. This is a usual mandate for clients demanding for a controlled vol portfolio.

And no! a simple Straddle or Strangle will not make you a guaranteed profit if you paid too much for implied volatility than you should. If for example, a company is about to make it's earnings announcement and you bought a straddle or a strangle close to the announcement day expecting that if the company either beats or loses against consensus estimate, there will be a short spike in its volatility. In this case, you would have paid too much for implied vol as the option prices would be higher...and the day after the announcement, the market will be less excited about the news, so the option prices will drop making your long positions useless.

violent:

I think this is an issue that will remain subjective to strong views whichever side of the argument you wish to be on. There's no clear optimal strategy, it all depends mostly on individual objectives and experience...and of course, what you define as "good pay". It will also depend on where you choose to develop your career for the long haul. In the UK, an MBA isn't really regarded as much as it is in the US. The quality of your work experience is a bigger factor for the UK.

But what would i choose?....I'd choose an Ivy League MBA in a heartbeat! For someone like me who's desperately ambitious and intends to spend some time in the US for the future, i believe this is very important for my career prospects. Not only is it guaranteed to open doors of opportunities, it's a fantastic way to develop some of finest leadership skills ever.

Coming back to the doors of opportunities, this spreadsheet made by some dude might interest you

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AndCUjb9VV86dHJLRW9nOG45U2lZZTRtTnFHWVdqclE&hl=en#gid=0

You don't go to Harvard for nothing! or Wharton! or Chicago Booth! or Stanford! ...the lowest you can earn as a basic salary after graduation is circa 120 grand. your bonus could be anything from 50% to 100% of your salary as an associate and from there, there's only one way you can go! While studying for your MBA, you can intern at some of these companies and get paid 10 - 15 grand a month.

Check out the profile of people working at Bain Capital

http://www.baincapital.com/Team/Default.aspx?viewType=ByAlpha&alphaStart=a&alphaEnd=d

Trust me, T22, if you get into a PE firm like that, you life will never remain the same (literary speaking)...those guys aren't earning junks like i stated earlier. They earn multiples of that! That's what it means to be a big boy! For me, more money has always been preferable to less.

Wow, this sounds good O, I won't lie..

But we have many ivy MBA holders working for companies like GLO, MTN, RenCap and co in naija. I am sure they don't earn up to the figures you stated..Why then did they leave high pay for low pay in naija? I am guessing that the jobs that pay these great salaries are not just readily available for grab. In other words, such jobs are not automatic even if one holds an ivy MBA. No?

T22

tanimola22:

Wow, this sounds good O, I won't lie..

But we have many ivy MBA holders working for companies like GLO, MTN, RenCap and co in naija. I am sure they don't earn up to the figures you stated..Why then did they leave high pay for low pay in naija? I am guessing that the jobs that pay these great salaries are not just readily available for grab. In other words, such jobs are not automatic even if one holds an ivy MBA. No?

T22

Post mba pay in naija is argueably equal to that in america in general because factoring taxes, benefits they get in naija that they dont in america (housing allowance, driver allowance, furniture allowance etc)your net benefit is very identical. This also depends on industry. For anything buyside (PE, hedge fund etc) it is almost impossible to get post mba spots. This is the only industry that beats naija hands down in terms of pay post mba. Investment banking and management consulting, which is fairly easy to get in America, is identical to naija, and when you consider that with M7(not called ivy) mbas, promotions are much faster and you start off very high in naija compared to the western world, there is faster tranjectory for you to rise to the top and make more money.

Please if you get into an m7, leave that CFA, oyel or whatever job it is and enroll fast. an m7 mba will do wonders for your career

Investment bankers.
Enuf talk about pay. What say ye about the scam perpetrated at Barclays?

tanimola22:

Wow, this sounds good O, I won't lie..

But we have many ivy MBA holders working for companies like GLO, MTN, RenCap and co in naija. I am sure they don't earn up to the figures you stated..Why then did they leave high pay for low pay in naija? I am guessing that the jobs that pay these great salaries are not just readily available for grab. In other words, such jobs are not automatic even if one holds an ivy MBA. No?

T22

The choice to move back home after an Ivy MBA, for most people is due to personal preference to be at home....not because they couldn't get a choice job after graduation. While staying in the West may bring you some good wealth and healthy career prospects, it takes you away from your friends, family and the life you are used to. For many people, this is a big factor! Rencap wouldn't pay you 15k dollars a month, but at least you may potentially earn 2 million naira a month and enjoy the comforting feeling that comes with being home!

If you expect to earn the good returns for your Ivy MBA, then it makes sense to stay in an environment that is ready to pay for it. If you don't plan staying in such an environment due to family attachments and personal obligation, then you may have to reconsider the objectives of investing in an MBA!

AjanleKoko: Investment bankers.
Enuf talk about pay. What say ye about the scam perpetrated at Barclays?

Barclays is not alone on the Libor Fixing endemic!...and this is not something relating to it's Investment Banking arm but instead the whole of Barclay's group. Bank of America, Citi group and UBS are all being investigated for this dodgy malpractice. Unfortunately, the world has come to the sorry state where everyone only thinks about the bottom line and throws out every single ethics code known to mankind without shame!

violent:

Barclays is not alone on the Libor Fixing endemic!...and this is not something relating to it's Investment Banking arm but instead the whole of Barclay's group. Bank of America, Citi group and UBS are all being investigated for this dodgy malpractice. Unfortunately, the world has come to the sorry state where everyone only thinks about the bottom line and throws out every single ethics code known to mankind without shame!

Okay.
But I need to ask, not a sarcastic question here.
What exactly do bankers do these days? And how come they all of a sudden are getting shown up as cheats and criminals?

And even more puzzling, how come people still want to be bankers?
Honest answer.

AjanleKoko:

Okay.
But I need to ask, not a sarcastic question here.
What exactly do bankers do these days? And how come they all of a sudden are getting shown up as cheats and criminals?

Honest answer.

Are all Politicians corrupt?

Are all Lawyers lying b[i]a[/i]stards without shame?

Banks remain a vital part of the Global economy!..Their primary role as intermediaries mean their survival is sacrosanct. Some Banks, like some businesses, may engage in dodgy stuffs to make money for their principals. While this is not ethical, it also highlights the failure of appropriate regulatory bodies in their oversight duties. Not all banks or financial intermediaries are cheats or criminals, but the few bad ones are bound to give the good ones a bad look.

And even more puzzling, how come people still want to be bankers?

Cos someone has got to be one! ..we can't all be neurosurgeons or brilliant engineers! ...Nigerians don't really admire the members of the Police Force, but someone has got to do the job, right?..and that someone has got bills to pay right?

I also think the word "bankers" has been coined too loosely in a manner where everyone gets chucked in the bucket even if they don't wish to. There are people who work in Finance and don't wish to be described as "Bankers"

^^
You're right on all points.
I think the governments, and not bankers, are really to blame for the financial crisis. Regulation has been lax, and government officials have easily looked the other way, in virtually all the markets. That more than anything is responsible for the crisis. People also need to hold their governments responsible. The bankers, at least the rogue members of that profession, simply skirted the fine line in their pursuit of profit.

violent:

LOOL

I always enjoy watching people defend what they believe in!.....I think the CFA is a brilliant designation but i feel a Phd is more challenging. I'm not studying for a Phd yet, but o boy, i dey always bow for those guys who are into some quantitative Phd.

One girl was hired in my office recently with a Phd in Algebra ...she did her thesis on near rings and all kinds of weird stuff. I tell you, this girl can manipulate a 10 by 10 matrix in her head ...i dey always bow each time i pass hin desk!

here's the rank on my list.

1) Phd
2) Ivy League MBA
3) CFA

since number 1 is a bit too ambitious for my IQ, i'd be gunning for 2. A friend of mine thinks 3 is a nice extracurricular activity!

CFA an extra curricular activity? Your friend must be kidding! The odds are that he took the CFA exams and 'banged' (which is normal) repeatedly and eventually gave up hope of passing the grueling exams. Most people who cast aspersions on the CFA program are more likely to have tried but failed to go thru the grueling exams. Even employers and senior executives of financial firms recognize the worth of the designation.

cfa is certainly not a worthless certification

Investment banking wont be the same post Financial crisis. The can is just being 'kicked down the road', Things are only getting worse and when that bubble pops . Europe is F'ed the countries are literally 'bankrupt': high inflation, no jobs, high taxes, declining wages etc = terrible economy absoultley no way to fix it, America is even worse 50 million na Food stamps no be small ting oooo.

World is shifting to people who produce real 'tangible' things agric/oil/metals/minerals all that derivative nonsense that overinflates these countries 'GDP' will burst and when it does: game over for them. It will effect Africa and Asia but not that much, why? Because we are the exporters of the 'real goods' what the oyinbo bring is the 'knowledge' (which is being transfered anyway) lol .

The world of finance is synonymous with bad news. Whilst some are passing the bulk by positing their claim along the Phd vs CFA vs Ivy league MBA trajectory, Institutions like Barclays that survived what some describe as the greatest crisis of all time are arguably enmeshed in LIBOR crisis that questions the totality of what we define as "ethics or morality" in finance.

Maybe, the end of the world as we know it will be fueled by an "Economic/Financial Armageddon and not a 'Nuclear' one as envisaged.

May God help us all!

RixExpat:

CFA an extra curricular activity? Your friend must be kidding! The odds are that he took the CFA exams and 'banged' (which is normal) repeatedly and eventually gave up hope of passing the grueling exams. Most people who cast aspersions on the CFA program are more likely to have tried but failed to go thru the grueling exams. Even employers and senior executives of financial firms recognize the worth of the designation.

Maybe you are right. He might have banged!..but if you care to know, the dude's academic profile exhibits brilliance from all angles. Having graduated with a first in Physics from Oxford, been a member of Mensa since 2008 and appointed the head of a derivative desks at the age of 28, I doubt if passing CFA would be something of a headache. I know a few people who passed the first two levels of CFA right out of undergrad, even folks with degrees in English, Agric and all those other "less technical" subjects pass on the first three attempts.

You shouldn't get me wrong. I still believe CFA's syllabus is intense and represents a standard for anyone aspiring to build a career in Finance, but for others who are a little more ambitious, it's probably not challenging enough. Everyone will eventually have to go for whatever suits them.

deenee: The world of finance is synonymous with bad news. Whilst some are passing the bulk by positing their claim along the Phd vs CFA vs Ivy league MBA trajectory, Institutions like Barclays that survived what some describe as the greatest crisis of all time are arguably enmeshed in LIBOR crisis that questions the totality of what we define as "ethics or morality" in finance.

Maybe, the end of the world as we know it will be fueled by an "Economic/Financial Armageddon and not a 'Nuclear' one as envisaged.

May God help us all!

Barclays is not alone! UBS, Bank of America, RBS...most, if not all of them are involved with the fiddling of borrowing rates to make their financials appear stronger.

Economic/Financial Armageddon is here to stay!...it's the nuclear one i'm much wary about.

DanKan0: Investment banking wont be the same post Financial crisis. The can is just being 'kicked down the road', Things are only getting worse and when that bubble pops . Europe is F'ed the countries are literally 'bankrupt': high inflation, no jobs, high taxes, declining wages etc = terrible economy absoultley no way to fix it, America is even worse 50 million na Food stamps no be small ting oooo.

World is shifting to people who produce real 'tangible' things agric/oil/metals/minerals all that derivative nonsense that overinflates these countries 'GDP' will burst and when it does: game over for them. It will effect Africa and Asia but not that much, why? Because we are the exporters of the 'real goods' what the oyinbo bring is the 'knowledge' (which is being transfered anyway) lol .

You really think so? Let's say America and Europe goes burst today and consumer spending dries up in those countries, who would buy all those things you export?

violent:

Barclays is not alone! UBS, Bank of America, RBS...most, if not all of them are involved with the fiddling of borrowing rates to make their financials appear stronger.

Economic/Financial Armageddon is here to stay!...it's the nuclear one i'm much wary about.

This is one of the greatest challenges facing regulators nowadays, and though a strict regulatory environment is great, but it will still not solve the issue as smart market participants can always engage in regulatory arbitrage (which is legal). Charity, they say begins at home. There is no amount of regulation that can combat such unethical practices or even pre-empt the motives of unscrupulous market participants. We've got to imbibe sound ethics in our individual roles, which is where the CFA Institute stands out. Ethics is at the core of the whole program. Certainly, there have been unethical violations by CFA charter holders and candidates, but of course the violators know the penalties attendant to such and CFA Institute has always wielded the big stick. A sense of strong ethics as well as professionalism (which to some sounds albeit like a discordant tone) is what the the financial market needs at this time.

RixExpat:

This is one of the greatest challenges facing regulators nowadays, and though a strict regulatory environment is great, but it will still not solve the issue as smart market participants can always engage in regulatory arbitrage (which is legal). Charity, they say begins at home. There is no amount of regulation that can combat such unethical practices or even pre-empt the motives of unscrupulous market participants. We've got to imbibe sound ethics in our individual roles, which is where the CFA Institute stands out. Ethics is at the core of the whole program. Certainly, there have been unethical violations by CFA charter holders and candidates, but of course the violators know the penalties attendant to such and CFA Institute has always wielded the big stick. A sense of strong ethics as well as professionalism (which to some sounds albeit like a discordant tone) is what the the financial market needs at this time.

Ethics is what an individual makes of it. If regulators are finding it difficult to combat unethical practices, i doubt if reading a few books from the CFA will change a thing. I know a few strong Bible students who have read time and over again verses which says fornication and lust is a sin, perhaps even punishable with eternity in hell. If the threat of hell fire cannot change people from fulfilling their hard wired desires, i doubt if the threat of losing membership of a designation will change much. Humans are not designed to live by rules, not especially when your dream house in Santa Monica and your 1 million dollars Bonus is tied to fiddling with the rules for a bit!...Barclays probably have a few hundred of CFA holders already, i haven't seen many of them leaving their Jobs in protest of their Bank's shameful behavior, why you ask? They've got a Family to feed duh!


Moral of the story: You can't force ethics on an individual. Ethics is one those things you either have or you don't!

NB. I'm now unwilling to go further with the CFA debate. Meanwhile, i think it's been a very thoughtful debate.

violent:

Ethics is what an individual makes of it. If regulators are finding it difficult to combat unethical practices, i doubt if reading a few books from the CFA will change a thing. I know a few strong Bible students who have read time and over again verses which says fornication and lust is a sin, perhaps even punishable with eternity in hell. If the threat of hell fire cannot change people from fulfilling their hard wired desires, i doubt if the threat of losing membership of a designation will change much. Humans are not designed to live by rules, not especially when your dream house in Santa Monica and your 1 million dollars Bonus is tied to fiddling with the rules for a bit!...Barclays probably have a few hundred of CFA holders already, i haven't seen many of them leaving their Jobs in protest of their Bank's shameful behavior, why you ask? They've got a Family to feed duh!


Moral of the story: You can't force ethics on an individual. Ethics is one those things you either have or you don't!

NB. I'm now unwilling to go further with the CFA debate. Meanwhile, i think it's been a very thoughtful debate.

na wah for u and dis your spot on submission..very true about the so called ethics..


Bankers, awon ole...hahhaha

T22

^^^^

Violent is a very smart guy no doubt. I enjoy reading his submissions.