Itse Sagay, a professor of Law, is the
Chairman of the Presidential Advisory
Committee on Anti-Corruption. In this
interview with PREMIUM TIMES’ Ben
Ezeamalu, he spoke about his
committee’s assignment as well as the
present and immediate past
administrations’ fights against corruption.


PT: Let’s talk about the Presidential Advisory
Committee of which you are chairman. How far
has the committee gone with its assignment and
are there any challenges so far?

Sagay : You know, obviously, that it’s not
everything we do that I can say. The committee,
to a certain extent, is working under a sort of
protocol of low profile: do a lot behind the
scenes but do not project yourself all over the
place. So that means I cannot tell you
everything we have done. But I’ll tell you some
of the essentials.
I think the first point I need to make, that this
committee is a coordinating committee. In other
words, it is to coordinate the fight against
corruption in the country. That process of
coordination includes the following: we will
liaise with all anti-corruption agencies, we will
ensure that they are cooperating, rather than
competing.
We will also look at what they are doing
individually, to find what challenges they are
having. For example the challenge of training
their manpower with regards to prosecution. We
are doing something about that (So many cases
that have not been concluded were suspended
and all that). Is it equipment? Is it finance? Or
is it that there are some people within these
agencies that are in fact sabotaging what the
agency is doing by cooperating with the very
people who are being investigated. Things like
that are also happening.
Those are some of the things and, as I said, we
want to create synergy between all the various
anti-corruption agencies so they are working
and cooperating together, supplying expertise
where one lacks, supplying equipment where
the other lacks. We are doing that right now.
Secondly, having asked all these questions, we
then arrange to provide assistance to meet
those gaps which they have. For example we
are in touch with various international bodies
who have given us their assurance that once we
know what the agencies need, they will provide
the assistance to make up for any shortcomings
that they have in any of the areas like training,
equipment and so on.
We have been in touch with many of them and
they have really been very generous in the way
they have come forward to meet us.
Then secondly, very major thing, is the reform,
improvement, and application of the
Administration of Criminal Justice Act. So
administration of criminal justice generally but
with specific reference to the Administration of
Criminal Justice Act of 2015.
You saw the recent explosion in the country
over the Supreme Court’s decision where there
was so much controversy whether the Supreme
Court ought to have granted a stay regarding
the Code of Conduct Tribunal operations.
So our job is to ensure that this particular law
works. And the reason why it has to work is
because before it the previous law was not
working. You charge somebody to court for
corruption, the first thing the person’s lawyer
does is to file a preliminary objection
challenging the jurisdiction of the court,
challenging the validity of the charges, and so
on. And they would now compel the court to
concentrate on these preliminary matters and
completely forget the charges which brought
them to court. And, say, if after two or three
years they lose, they would appeal to the Court
of Appeal. They would not say ‘Ok let us hear
the case now.’ No no no. They will appeal to
the Court of Appeal and knowing the mentality
and the culture of the judiciary.
Once you say you appeal, the High Court is so
frightened it will suspend its proceedings. And
so the thing goes on to the Court of Appeal.
And they go through the same rigmarole, two-
three years, court rules that the lower court has
jurisdiction. They appeal to the Supreme Court.
And that goes through another two-three years
rigmarole. So by the time they finally say the
court has jurisdiction we are talking of 10-12
years. By the time you come back to the High
Court to actually hear the case, witnesses have
died, retired, the investigating police officer is
retired, he’s no longer there. Those who are
familiar with the case in the ministry have
become judges. So the case dies a natural
death and they create what we call ‘prosecution
fatigue.’ That’s what used to be.
Now under this Administration of Criminal
Justice Act 2015, all these problems have been
solved. That Act says there must be no
adjournment, adjournment is prohibited. Once
the case starts, it has to go on from day to day
till it’s concluded. There are provisions where
there is an extreme need for an adjournment,
the judge uses his discretion to grant two
weeks, 14 days. And this can be done five times
during the life of the case, after that the judge
doesn’t have the competence, the case must go
on till the end. That’s number one.
Number two, let’s go over what I said just now,
somebody brings a preliminary objection, he
attacks the jurisdiction of the court, he says the
charge is not properly drawn up, it’s faulty and
so on, therefore everything needs to be struck
out. Or even brings an action that his client
should be discharged, that the charge be
quashed. Now, this new Act says if anything like
that comes, the court should entertain it, but
entertain it together with the substantive issue.
So if you bring a preliminary objection now
under the new law, the court will listen to you.
You argue, you give all your reasons why the
court has no jurisdiction, the court will be taking
down notes. After you finish all that the court
will say ‘fine’ and put it aside ‘I’ll rule on it.’
Now let’s go to the main case. They will then
hear the corruption case which would have been
postponed until after the Supreme Court, they
now hear it to the full. After that the judge will
now give a date and come, give judgment on
preliminary objection, give judgment on
substantive case. Do you see the improvement?
You do not have to journey to the Supreme
Court and back. Everything is taken together. So
if the judge, having heard both the preliminary
objection and the substantive corruption case,
he will take the preliminary objection first
naturally…

Contd... (Updated)

PT: (Cuts in) If the judge hears the preliminary
objection and delivers judgment…
Sagay : He won’t deliver judgment.
PT: As in, after he heard all the cases. And
delivers judgment and it turns out he didn’t have
the jurisdiction in the first place to entertain the
suit. Does he still have the competence to rule on
the substantive case?
Sagay : That’s what I was going to tell you. He
gives judgment, he agrees he has no
jurisdiction. Then he will say, ‘supposing I’m
wrong in saying so, this is the judgment I would
have delivered in the corruption case.’ He will
still send the man to prison even though he says
‘I have no jurisdiction, but in case I have, I’m
sending you to five years imprisonment.’ Case
goes on, to the Supreme Court. The Supreme
Court will now look at the two. The Supreme
Court may agree with him and say ‘oh, she has
no jurisdiction, I uphold her.
But I will also look at the substantive matter. If
I had jurisdiction, you’d have gone to prison for
five years.’ Supreme Court may end up saying
yes they have jurisdiction therefore we adopt
the jurisdiction and you are going for the five
years. Do you see the difference? It’s a
dramatic difference. It’s a revolution. So within
nine months the case is heard, 18 months it’s
finished in the Court of Appeal, in another two
years it’s finished in the Supreme Court and you
know your fate. No going up and down, the two
are taken together. That is the new law.
That’s not all, the new law also says that,
previously if you are hearing a case and you are
promoted to a higher court, you just drop the
case you are hearing, a new judge is now
brought to hear it from the beginning, no matter
how far you’ve gone. We have a very bad case
recently of Erastus Akingbola of Intercontinental
Bank. The case was heard from beginning to
end, the judge gave a date to deliver judgment,
then we don’t know up till today whether this
was a plan, they just promoted him to the
Appeal Court. The case is back. And since then
it has gone through three or four judges, no
head no tail. That is gone forever. Once a judge
is assigned to a case, even if he’s promoted to
the Supreme Court, he must finish it, under this
new law.
So our duty as the Presidential Advisory
Committee Against Corruption is to ensure that
all courts keep strictly to these changes and not
go back to the old bad ways. Because many of
them have the tendency of going back to the
old bad ways. Either because they are ignorant.
Either because they don’t appreciate the
significance of the new laws or because they
are corrupt. So our job is to follow up every
case to make sure that there is no falling back.
That no judge is granting unnecessary
adjournment. That no judge is staying any
action.
Another provision of the new law is that if you
appeal any ruling of the court, the court will
continue hearing the case regardless of the
appeal.
My committee is mandated to ensure that all
these changes are maintained and sustained
and applied unfailingly.
PT: Are there penalties for courts (judges) who go
back to these old bad ways?
Sagay : The penalty is that it will be noted and it
will affect his performance and judgment and
could result to his being retired. Because now
there is a system involving the National Judicial
Commission, NBA, and, informally, ourselves,
monitoring judges and all those things. Once we
notice these lapses continue, then they will be
recommended first for suspension, case will be
heard against them, if confirmed they will be
retired. There is now very strict provision, one
for productivity, two for integrity. Their work is
being measured very strictly.
And another thing we are working on with the
Chief Justice and the Attorney Generals, in all
these corruption cases, we are identifying
judges who are known for their integrity, who
are known to be impervious to brandishments of
material things, who just have a passion for
justice, they are the ones who are going to
handle these cases. They will be transferred to
the Criminal Division of each High Court and the
cases will go to them, and we expect these
cases to be determined within nine months. So
all these governors whose cases have been in
court since 2007 till now, all that will be a thing
of the past.
PT: I know you’ve spoken about how the
Committee wants to maintain a low profile…
Sagay : (Cuts in) Yes. Ok, let me tell you one or
two things that I almost forgot. We are also
trying to train these anti corruption agencies on
so many things. For example, this prosecution
thing, we are presently developing a prosecution
manual ‘How to prosecute successfully.’ We are
developing, almost getting to the final stage
now, which we’ll now pass on to them so that
they can follow it. And if they do, they will not
fail unless the person is innocent.
We are also developing a plea bargaining
manual so that when there’s a need for plea
bargaining, you know what steps to follow.
And recently we had a workshop on Section 306
and 396 of the new Administration of Criminal
Justice Act on this issue whether a court,
whether Supreme Court, Court of Appeal, or
High Court has a right to adjourn any matter on
appeal. Because that happened recently in
Saraki’s case and there was an uproar all over
the country. So we had to bring in experts and
they have all held that under no circumstances
should any court in the country from Supreme
Court to High Court grant any adjournment
because of an appeal. The case continues at
the lower court while his appeal also continues.
If he’s convicted at the lower court and he has
appealed, the appeal can then overrule the
lower court but the lower court cannot be
stopped anymore.
PT: The president recently stated that people
who looted public funds had started to return
them, and that names will be published soon. I
wonder if you have any idea as to how much
have been recovered so far?
Sagay : No. That’s an area I absolutely have no
knowledge about. That has not been brought
within our circle.
PT: But your assignment must have given you
fresh insight into corrupt activities in Nigeria.
How would you rate corruption in Nigeria?
Sagay : It’s depressing. What we have found is
that it is present at every level, in every sector,
anywhere. There’s no exception. None. We are
hearing all the high profile cases but there are
so many cases that are not high profile – perm
secs, civil servants, directors, even in the
private sector, all engaging. It’s as if that is a
national passion. So that if you are not
selective, you’ll be overwhelmed.
We are hoping that by the body language of the
government, by the example that will be set by
those who are prosecuted successfully and by
setting programs we are going to run, programs
in which the public: 1. Will be exposed to the
damage that corruption does. When they take
12 billion out of your budget, what does it do to
the average Nigerian.
We are going to show all that. And take it to
schools, so many places so that people when
they hear corruption, they will personalize and
not think that government money has been
stolen. No no no. What has been stolen is the
fee to maintain a clinic where my wife would
have had a baby successfully tomorrow. And
because of that thing was not there she died in
childbirth. That’s the sort of things we want to
run down the mind of Nigerians so that they
can be hostile to corruption.
PT: Over the past years we have seen you
coming out to speak on issues bordering on
corruption. How would you rate the previous
administration’s fight against corruption?
Sagay : You mean the previous administration’s
encouragement of corruption? But you and I
know that they were promoting corruption as a
way of life. Look at all the revelations which
you and I know. In fact, when I started reading it
I started laughing because it reminded me of so
much of one culture in Delta State where I
come from. We have all these young young
boys who don’t have a job, who are looking for
money anyhow. If there’s anything going on, any
party, they’ll go there. If there’s any rich man in
town, they’ll go there hoping he’ll throw money.
And when one gets and he’s going away, he’ll
see the other and he’ll say “You don obtain?”
Then that one will go and tell the other “You
don obtain?”
The Jonathan government has introduced the
culture of ‘You don obtain’ as a national culture.
For everybody to be walking into an office
somewhere and collecting his share of Nigerian
resources and walking away for nothing. So
there’s no question that the Jonathan
government actively promoted corruption. And
has wrecked and ruined this country as a result
because we have no money anymore. It’s just
incredible that anybody can just wake up and
get his share. This man got 100 million, this one
got 2.1 billion, everybody is having a share. On
what basis? Tompolo had 13 billion. Everybody.
As long as you belong to the PDP, you can just
walk in some office and collect a suitcase of
money and go. Somebody went to the Central
Bank and collected 14 suitcases of dollars, $47
million in suitcases. That’s a bazaar, it’s bizarre.
That’s not an organized country. That is chaos
and total disorder.
PT: Recently, an ex-NIMASA boss was bundled
into a bus by security agents despite two courts
granting him bail. Are you concerned about the
disrespect for court rulings?
Sagay : But he was re-arrested for a new
charge. That’s allowed. They were not
disrespecting the bail, they had a new charge.
For any new charge, police can arrest. So all he
needs to do is to ask for bail for that too. You
see, it’s all up to us. If you go about committing
50 different crimes, and you are charged for one
and you get bail. You can be charged for the
second one, third one, fourth one, all the 50 and
you get bail for all the 50. That’s what had
happened. They were playing football with our
money at our various levels…
PT: (Cuts in) But the manner in which he was
bundled into the bus…
Sagay : (Cuts in) He was resisting. I don’t
support it, mark you. I don’t support it. It was
humiliating. He could have been injured because
it was too rough. But again, a man like that,
he’s an educated man, a lecturer, you don’t
struggle with the police. ‘Oh new charge? Ok,
call my lawyers. This is the new charge.’ Enter
the vehicle and go. But to physically resist. I
think it’s very foolish for anyone to physically
resist the state because you cannot defeat the
state.
PT: Critics of the present government say they
are targeting only PDP members. That there’s
an Amaechi or Fashola who had also had
petitions written against them yet nothing was
done to them. What do you think about that?
Sagay : Who are the people who wrote petitions
against Amaechi and Fashola? Primarily, they
are this same people who are afraid of being
probed. Who thought these two strong men
being in Buhari’s government will so strengthen
that government. That the contrast between it
and the Jonathan government will be so strong
and that they themselves will be exposed. Do
you think Wike will want Amaechi to be in any
government? He would not. He is so frightened
of Amaechi, if he could destroy him he would
have destroyed him long ago.
There’s nothing he had not done to destroy him.
With Mama Patience. There’s nothing they
haven’t done. It’s just that the guy is such a
clucky, strong, energetic, and witty fellow that
just got himself out of all that. Then they just
cooked up a panel made up of sympathetic, pro-
Wike judges who went there parading
themselves in a most dishonorable manner. So
it’s nothing to be taken seriously.
The same thing with Fashola. Some people did
not want Fashola to be in this government and
so they just decided that the best thing to do is
to tarnish his name, tarnish his record, which
the whole world respects. From the United
States to Australia, to the Middle East, to even
the United Nations, everybody knows that
Fashola has the best record in governance that
this country has had since Awolowo. So they
just wanted to destroy all that over night
because they were frightened of him becoming
a minister. That’s why I have a great respect for
Buhari. He was unmoved. He was unshaken. He
just kept his cool. And when he now came out,
what did he do? He made Fashola the symbol of
his government. Fashola is the number one
minister in this country today. And Transport
given to Amaechi is equally important, because
we are talking of railways, highways, aviation,
and so on. Buhari knows what he is doing most
of the time. He doesn’t talk much.
PT: But do you think this government’s fight
against corruption so far has targeted only
opposition elements?
Sagay : No. It hasn’t. You see, what is
happening, I’m a little bit in the know of this,
this government is not going out of the way to
look for people to prosecute. No. They are
prosecuting people whose corruption is jarring
them in the face. Corruption that is virtually
blocking your road, you cannot move unless you
move it out of the way. That’s the type of
corruption we are facing. Corruption that has
crippled this government now. So when they talk
of corruption of Obasanjo, Yar’adua, all these
people, that we should go back to that, no
complain about that. But if we don’t clear the
last five years, the type of corruption we have
seen is mind-boggling and not only that, they
are all close. You can see the way the NSA’s
office was turned into a bazaar. Even after
Buhari was elected, they still transferred money,
over 27 billion to NSA’s office, after the
election. We have to deal with those first. How
can you now go back to 1960, to Shagari and so
on when you have this low-hanging fruit right in
your face. It makes no sense. So it’s not a
question of discrimination. It’s a question of
going after the obvious, the immediate, the
most threatening which has to be taken care of
before you move on.

Hope he will not deny this interview soon

Double standard and hypocritical change!!!

Very misleading headline. I can't see anywhere in the article where Fashola or Amaechi was mentioned. Hope is not another case of impersonification. Nigerian journalists, I hail thee.

Ijaya123:
I can't see anywhere in the article where Fashola it Amaechi was mentioned.

Read the continuation/second post(updated).