~Sauron~:

The Busby babes on it's own is HISTORY. . . . . . .

lets not speak ill of the dead.

Is Celtic bigger than Man Utd despite their long haul of titles in little Scotland?
They have claimed 42 league titles, it means Celtic are better than Madrid and Barcelona?
Are u guys fickle?

and what has celtics won in europe. Real Madrid have done it both home and away. They have been more successful than manu in europe, and have sent you packing when both have met in the champions league.

We all know why Madrid's revenue is more. . . . . . .United can top that if they break away from their domestic TV deals tied to the FA.
Only amateurs talk about debt. . . . .We are talking about value and the global brand.
Man Utd's worth in assets is more than Real Madrid. Forget the debt. . . . .The debt won't be removed from the assets in one go.

The ranking included Real Madrid. . . . . . .  .Go back to the article i posted earlier.

The ranking was based on properties that could be acquired, in madrid case mainly the brand, and thus did not account for the entire club. You cannot buy real madrid as a club, unlike ManU that is essentially owned by the glazers. Even then I wasn't disputing that ManU likely has more assets than madrid, just that the source you chose was not fair.
Its funny how you want to forget the debts, when same debts contributed to the assets you so much want to amplify. Any accountant will tell you that your value = assets- liability(i.e.debts).
You are free to use your self devised accounting standards.

dayokanu:

Bayern Munich players won in 1970, 1972, 1976, 1980 and 1981

Bayern Munich players were second in 1972, 74, 75, 79, 81, 1995,

English Language is your problem. . . . .Rummenigge, Beckenbauer and Gerd Muller are the 3 players who have won Ballon d'Or.
That makes it 3 Bayern Players who have won it(i don't care how many times each of em won it).
United on the other hand have Best, Charlton, Dennis Law and Ronaldo(4 players).

So more United players have won it more than Bayern players.

I don't care about 2nd place.

dayokanu:

Biina,
When we are discussing CL winner we can never mention Arsenal or Valencia. If Arsenal doesnt win a trophy.

In the next 50 years who would remember they used to be a contender? Who remembers Borrousia Mochengladbach?

So cos Real Madrid has not been doing well recently means Chelsea and Arsenal are better than them?

I am not saying it should be based solely on recent performance and ignore past achievements, but rather that a recent championship should carry more weight than those of bygone years. You cannot just count trophies for the sake of counting, as the competition evolves, and the difficulty of the challenge has increased over the years (more teams from stronger leagues and more participant in general).

Also you cannot use the CL as sole yard stick for determining a big club, else I ask if Nottingham Forest is the 12th biggest clubs in europe?

biina:

lets not speak ill of the dead.

And they are not history?
Where were you when United did their 50th anniversary in Feb. 2008?
History don't come better than that.

and what has celtics won in europe. Real Madrid have done it both home and away. They have been more successful than manu in europe, and have sent you packing when both have met in the champions league.

5 of those titles were won in a row in the 50s.
56, 57, 58, 59, 60(Is that what you call SUCCESS). . . . .Who were their challengers in those days?
Don't make me laugh.

The ranking was based on properties that could be acquired, in madrid case mainly the brand, and thus did not account for the entire club. You cannot buy real madrid as a club, unlike ManU that is essentially owned by the glazers. Even then I wasn't disputing that ManU likely has more assets than madrid, just that the source you chose was not fair.

It wasn't based on anything. . . . . . .The rankings were based on everything(not only properties that could be acquired).
They made sure they took care of all contingencies which was why The Premiership was not even ranked in the list. They know the clubs in the PREM now have many private owners so they couldn't be rightly ranked. If what you are saying about 'properties that could be acquired' is true, then Madrid will not be on the list at all.

Its funny how you want to forget the debts, when same debts contributed to the assets you so much want to amplify. Any accountant will tell you that your value = assets- liability(i.e.debts).
You are free to use your self devised accounting standards.

VALUE = ASSETS - LIABILITY even vindicates me as United's value is $1.8 billion to Real Madrid's $1.3 billion.
The debt have been taken to consideration before arriving at the value of the club.
Trust me, the fall of the GB pounds to the Euros was even a massive blow to English clubs, once the economic meltdown vanishes, we would be talking about a huge distance between Man Utd and Real Madrid.
What about the 330 million fans United have worldwide? They don't count?

biina:

I am not saying it should be based solely on recent performance and ignore past achievements, but rather that a recent championship should carry more weight than those of bygone years. You cannot just count trophies for the sake of counting, as the competition evolves, and the difficulty of the challenge has increased over the years (more teams from stronger leagues and more participant in general).

Also you cannot use the CL as sole yard stick for determining a big club, else I ask if Nottingham Forest is the 12th biggest clubs in europe?

in whatever case . . .without history . .or past,there cant be "NOW"

to the Topic again - i say R.Madrid is bigger

allboyz:

to the Topic again - i say R.Madrid is bigger

United are bigger. . . . . . .
Madrid's 9 UCL titles are a tad overrated.
5 of them were won in the 50s for Bleep's sake.

~Sauron~:

United are bigger. . . . . . .
Madrid's 9 UCL titles are a tad overrated.
5 of them were won in the 50s for mess's sake.

and the remaining four?
I am sure you are the only one on this board who is deluded that ManU is bigger than Madrid.

biina:

and the remaining four?
I am sure you are the only one on this board who is deluded that ManU is bigger than Madrid.

Simply because others don't even know about corporate issues like i do.
United are a global brand. . . . . .worldwide, Man Utd are the best sports brand.
Madrid for instance have no appeal in Asia and Far East. . . . . . .United have captured that entire zone and they are milking it.

Success or no success. . . . . .When was the last time Madrid won in the UCL or even play in the final?
How many league titles have they won in the last 6 seasons in Spain?
Stop fooling yourself. . . . . .

Direct comparisons of clubs and players have never been my style.

The trouble is, how do you determine the criteria. . .

Dayo's talked about UCL titles, That means Nottingham forest is one of the biggest
clubs out there.

We've mentioned great players to have played for the clubs. . . Who are Liverpool's biggest
players ever. Fowler? Rush? Hansen? Souness? Yet we say they are one of the biggest teams.

It will go on and on

Even a certified retard who is from the lost tribe, living under the rock

knows real madrid is the biggest club ever, period

some topic should not even be up for discussion, too obvious

I am tired of this sharon. Why can you not debate without sentiment. We all know that MADRID is a bigger club compared to ur Manure. Why prolonging the debate? Crizzle shud lock this thread coz she def knows tha truth.

eyonigger:

I am tired of this sharon. Why can you not debate without sentiment. We all know that MADRID is a bigger club compared to ur Manure. Why prolonging the debate? Crizzle shud lock this thread coz she def knows tha truth.

We?? Who are we??
How are Madrid bigger than Man Utd?
Whats the definition of BIG?? Worth or Fan base?
When u have answers to that, then u get back to me.

ManU is real madrid's feeder team,dis is the answer sauron wants to hear

adamabdul:

ManU is real madrid's feeder team,dis is the answer sauron wants to hear

What have they won with the players we sold to them?
Beckham, Ruud, Heinze won nothing in Europe.
On the contrary, we sell 2nd hand products to Real Madrid.
Our assistant manager(Carlos Queiroz) managed em for 1 season now who's BIGGER?

Ruud,Beckham,Heinze,and Cristiano ronaldo who wil be CR9,OR CR10 on the 29th or 30th of this month.We have the money to buy any player because we are the richest as well as the biggest,if Manu have d money why do they sell their most priced assets(Beckham,Ruud,and CR9) to us?THERE IS NO CLUB THAT CAN BE COMPARED WITH REAL MADRID,and manU without cristiano,i pity you jst pray that for a CL spot next season

Direct comparisons of clubs and players have never been my style.

The trouble is, how do you determine the criteria. . .

Dayo's talked about UCL titles, That means Nottingham forest is one of the biggest
clubs out there.

We've mentioned great players to have played for the clubs. . . Who are Liverpool's biggest
players ever. Fowler? Rush? Hansen? Souness? Yet we say they are one of the biggest teams.

It will go on and on

So what is your style when you support an inferior club like Man Utd then you have reasons to hide.
Kevin Keegan, Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard,

Nottingham Forest have a history clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea would die for

I am not saying it should be based solely on recent performance and ignore past achievements, but rather that a recent championship should carry more weight than those of bygone years. You cannot just count trophies for the sake of counting, as the competition evolves, and the difficulty of the challenge has increased over the years (more teams from stronger leagues and more participant in general).

Also you cannot use the CL as sole yard stick for determining a big club, else I ask if Nottingham Forest is the 12th biggest clubs in europe?

Biina if this is the logic you want to use then we can say AC Milan is the best club in Europe They won 5 CL in 20 years 1989,1990, 1994, 2003, 2007 and they were finalist in 1993, 1995 too far beyond what Madrid achieve.

AC Milan should be the best club in Europe then SIMPLE

@dayokanu
Again with the absolutes. How do you justify your choice of 20 yrs?
AC milan has 7 european titles well spaced over time, while madrid have 9 with the distribution less even. Depending on how far back you look, either team can look like having more 'recent' success.
But then UCL is not the only thing that determines the biggest club (note that the question wasn't about the best club in the UCL - whatever that means ).
Except from Sauron, everyone else seems to agree that Madrid is the biggest club. I am inclined to take Milan second (and I think most will agree with this) with ManU third.
My bone of contention is with your choice of Liverpool over ManU

Again with the absolutes. How do you justify your choice of 20 yrs?
AC milan has 7 european titles well spaced over time, while madrid have 9 with the distribution less even. Depending on how far back you look, either team can look like having more 'recent' success.
But then UCL is not the only thing that determines the biggest club (note that the question wasn't about the best club in the UCL - whatever that means Undecided).
Except from Sauron, everyone else seems to agree that Madrid is the biggest club. I am inclined to take Milan second (and I think most will agree with this) with ManU third.
My bone of contention is with your choice of Liverpool over ManU

Anything that means recently to you would place Milan ahead of Madrid in terms of trophy haul. Milan has 2 CL in the last 7 years Real Madrids major haul were in the 50's so if you want to remove all those who have won trophies earlier in the name of Not recent, then Madrid should lose 6 of their 9 trophies? Does that make sense?

I dont get why Man Utd should be ahead of Liverpool, Bayern munich or Barcelona

Maybe you can explain

dayokanu:

Anything that means recently to you would place Milan ahead of Madrid in terms of trophy haul. Milan has 2 CL in the last 7 years Real Madrids major haul were in the 50's so if you want to remove all those who have won trophies earlier in the name of Not recent, then Madrid should lose 6 of their 9 trophies? Does that make sense?

I dont get why Man Utd should be ahead of Liverpool, Bayern munich or Barcelona

Maybe you can explain

If I was to define recently as the last 15yrs madrid would have 3, while milan would have 2 thus we cannot pick an abitrary reference but must put it in context.
Nobody is removing trophies in the name of not recent, but if two teams have equal number of trophies, I would rank the team with more recent win as being more successful, as it is more difficult to achieve (or do you think that it is a coincidence that none has been able to defend the modern day UCL?)

I already gave you a comparison of Liverpool v ManU and would rather we compare just a pair so that the discussion would not get out of hand. Outside of UCL (which I call even but you deem in favor of Liverpool), I cant see any other area that Liverpoool is superior to ManU, that would make Liverpool a bigger club.

If I was to define recently as the last 15yrs madrid would have 3, while milan would have 2 Undecided thus we cannot pick an abitrary reference but must put it in context.
Nobody is removing trophies in the name of not recent, but if two teams have equal number of trophies, I would rank the team with more recent win as being more successful, as it is more difficult to achieve (or do you think that it is a coincidence that none has been able to defend the modern day UCL?)

I already gave you a comparison of Liverpool v ManU and would rather we compare just a pair so that the discussion would not get out of hand. Outside of UCL (which I call even but you deem in favor of Liverpool), I cant see any other area that Liverpoool is superior to ManU, that would make Liverpool a bigger club.

The key point you made here is that the 2 teams have equal number of trophies.

Bayern, Liverpool and Ajax have won more than Man Utd

Barcelona and man Utd have won 3 apiece but Barcelona won more recently so barcelona is even ahead of man Utd.

All these teams I mentioned won the Champions cup version and also the Champions league version. So Man Utd should be like 7th in ranking

Liverpool has 5 CL trophies 2 more than Man Utd so where do you get your ideas that they are equal from?
Bayern and Ajax have 4 apiece

Again you are try to use the UCL as the only criterion for determining who is the bigger club. Using that criterion makes Nothingam forest 12th biggest club in europe

Yes the CL is the leveller. Domestic competitions dont mean much. Cos ur league might be easier than mine to win.

Celtic has won more domestic competitions.

Other yardsticks dont make sense to me like richest club, finest Jersey, Biggest stadium or largest fan base .

A football club is judged by trophies just like students are judged by results and not handwriting, height, pocket size, shoe sizes or hairstyles.

Yeah Nottingham Forest is the 12 most successful team in Europe cos they reigned and took advantage of their reign. If you consider Madrids 6 trophies in the 50's I dont see any reason why Forests trophies in the 70's almost 20 years shouldnt count

If you are on top today and you cant win laurels then of what use is it . Who remembers Mochengladbach for anything?

@ biiina if u say dat madrid 's five consecutive cups is overrated why didn't man utd win them or wuz man utd not formed then lol

biina:

Except from Sauron, everyone else seems to agree that Madrid is the biggest club. I am inclined to take Milan second (and I think most will agree with this) with ManU third.
My bone of contention is with your choice of Liverpool over ManU

Unfortunately for u, i don't think like everyone else. . . . . . . .
U expect me to think like some goats who feel Liverpool are a bigger club than Man Utd?
The same Liverpool who are yet to win their domestic league in TWENTY YEARS? I will pass.

Again, using the UCL as the only yardstick to determine the biggest club is a tad folly.
These days, clubs set different priorities in a season. . . .Milan won UCL in 2007 because they gave up on chasing the serie A title.
In England, Ferguson would be sacked for doing the same thing. Winning the Premiership is a bigger prize to United in England.
To be frank, Barcelona's victory last month and United's victory in Moscow are better achievements than Liverpool in 05 and Milan in 2007.

Barca and United won their domestic league on their way to winning the Champions League.
Liverpool finished 37 points below the league leaders in 2005!!! The same 37 points woulda been enough for all the teams that relegated to stay in the Premiership in the same season. So how excellent were Liverpool in the bigger picture?

Milan also finished 36 points below Inter Milan when they won the UCL. . . . .
I am willing to bet Arsenal will win the UCL if they make it their top priority regardless of where they finish on the league table.
All they have to do is play the Wilsheres, Jay Simpsons and Kieran Gibbs in the league and roll out the big guns for the UCL ties.
Liverpool and Milan did that to boost the number of UCL titles they have won.

@dayokanu
If you feel Nottingham forest, a club which just got promoted from the 3rd level English league, is in the same bracket with clubs like Juventus and Inter, then we are on different wavelengths. I doubt I would mention Nottingham forest when considering the top 30 biggest clubs, same as I am unlikely to list Uruguay when naming 10 great soccer nations.

@bollingjoe
The European cup and the game of soccer itself has evolved over the years. It is obviously more difficult to win in the modern day than it was back then. For instance only single entries were allowed from each league and thus the competition was softer.

Madrid won the first five editions of the cup. If they had failed to win any more till now, I would deem the likes of Bayern as being more successful than them. For example, before the 98 win, I would deem AC milan as being more successful than Madrid, having won 5 titles with 3 in the last 10yrs, as opposed to Madrid's 6, with the last one being 30yrs old in 1966.

I feel the older the title is, the lesser its comparative value should be.

All that aside, I dont think UCL success should be the sole criterion for determining the biggest club. For instance, in determining the FIFA clubs of the 20th century, (not surprising) there was no significant mention of Nottingham forest.

~Sauron~:


I am willing to bet Arsenal will win the UCL if they make it their top priority regardless of where they finish on the league table.
All they have to do is play the Wilsheres, Jay Simpsons and Kieran Gibbs in the league and roll out the big guns for the UCL ties.

You will simply be wasting your money. I will never bet on arsenal winning the UCL, same as I would never bet on Liverpool winning the EPL.

biina:

You will simply be wasting your money. I will never bet on arsenal winning the UCL, same as I would never bet on Liverpool winning the EPL.

I won't be wasting my money.
It's not that Arsenal lack talents in their squad that they don't win. . . . .It is because the squad is so small and they burn out when they are expected to stand up and be counted in the latter stage of the season.
By February, they are left with 10 decent players while their rivals can still boast of 18-20 decent players to make the final push.

~Sauron~:

I won't be wasting my money.
It's not that Arsenal lack talents in their squad that they don't win. . . . .It is because the squad is so small and they burn out when they are expected to stand up and be counted in the latter stage of the season.
By February, they are left with 10 decent players while their rivals can still boast of 18-20 decent players to make the final push.

Nah. Arsenal lack that champion's edge. They are too comfortable with being second best.
As much as I dont like manU, I respect SAFs winning mentality. The likes of Capello, Mourinho and co also have same.
They treat being second almost like a failure and I feel you need that mental attitude to become a champion.

Passing by Don't need to argue every one know MADRID remains the best,

Enlgish League is no where to be recognized in the first 3 league of the world, due to the lack of discipline and many more, dont need any fucking argue sha.

Its one of two things, We disregard those titles won in ancient times or we count it.

We cant count those titles when it comes to Madrid and not count them when it comes to Bayern or Ajax.

All of Ajax, Bayern, Liverpool have won the CL version so they are all above Man Utd.

I am still waiting for why you feel Bayern and Barcelona should be behind Man Utd in your ratings. Doesnt make any sense to me.

Arsenal does not have a winning mentality. Its either ingrained in the coach or in the players. Coaches like Mourinho or players like Gerrard want to win always.

But Arsenal is a club that would celebrate second place or even fourth place. That shows the ambition of the club as a whole. Given the way they celebrate Emirates and Amsterdam cups and are content with 4th place in the league

dayokanu:

Its one of two things, We disregard those titles won in ancient times or we count it.
We cant count those titles when it comes to Madrid and not count them when it comes to Bayern or Ajax.

I ahve not said the titles shouldnt be counted, just the weight accorded them shoul not be equal.
If you decide to disregard old titles, where do you draw the line?
Even if you count all the titles, that would be the only area in which liverpool is superior to manU and it is not enough to make them a bigger club than ManU

All of Ajax, Bayern, Liverpool have won the CL version so they are all above Man Utd.
I am still waiting for why you feel Bayern and Barcelona should be behind Man Utd in your ratings. Doesnt make any sense to me.

If we are looking at UCL success, I would rate Barca as first given their 3 successes came in the last two decades, but if we are strictly counting titles all three would be ahead of ManU.
But then as I have already said, we cannot use only UCL wins to evaluate the biggest club.

So do your weighing statistically and come up with a ranking which would retain madrid as first, and Man Utd as second as you posited earlier. ahead of Milan, Bayern, Barcelona and co

Why do you rate them ahead of Barcelona

If we are looking at UCL success, I would rate them as Barca as first given their 3 successes came in the last two decades, but if we are strictly counting titles all three would be ahead of ManU.
But then as I have already said, we cannot use only UCL wins to evaluate the biggest club.

I dont understand your post especially the bolded part, then you might want to state the criteria you are using for this rating.
I hope you wont include finest Jersey, Fan base, Biggest stadium, popularity, youngest players