mikeansy:

It makes me feel good when the only habbits u can find amongst christains to compare to even today's muslims are histories of the attrocities that took place in the christendome in probably 12th to 15th century.

It simply shows how world apart these two religions are as far as civilization goes.

mikeansy:

I do not put the sins of any individual on any religion, I just condemn a religion's refusal to condemn violence within its midst

when will a world renowned Muslim cleric or leader condemn Al-qaeda and its followers

Can you endorse the fact that Al-qaeda are a terrorist organisation that should have no place in any religion? (My guess is that in your next four post you will be unable to condemn al-qaeda)

mikeansy:

I do not put the sins of any individual on any religion, I just condemn a religion's refusal to condemn violence within its midst

when will a world renowned Muslim cleric or leader condemn Al-qaeda and its followers

Can you endorse the fact that Al-qaeda are a terrorist organisation that should have no place in any religion? (My guess is that in your next four post you will be unable to condemn al-qaeda)

ElRazur:

Mikeansy,

I was driving about 3months ago listening to a radio program - lbc 97.3 to be specific. One of the Muslim scholar here in the UK was interviewed and when asked to condemn violence, he refused point blank.  If a respect scholars [respected among the muslim scholars here] can come out and refuse to condemn the use of violence by Muslims, then it is clear to deduce that they do encourage violence in one way or the other.

Besides, violence forms the bedrock of Islam founding values. Period.

ElRazur:

Mikeansy,

I was driving about 3months ago listening to a radio program - lbc 97.3 to be specific. One of the Muslim scholar here in the UK was interviewed and when asked to condemn violence, he refused point blank. If a respect scholars [respected among the muslim scholars here] can come out and refuse to condemn the use of violence by Muslims, then it is clear to deduce that they do encourage violence in one way or the other.

Besides, violence forms the bedrock of Islam founding values. Period.

For the highlighted bit of your post, i conclude you are daft!

biina:

and what do you know about the bedrock of Islam, about its history or the religion in general, that makes you an authority?

ElRazur:

If anyone here can give me conclusive evidence that Islam wasnt spread via war etc then I would listen. Anyone?

biina:

Was Islam ever spread by war? Yes, but then so was Christianity.
Were all muslims converted by force? No, but then same applies to christians.

So the point of your question was?

ElRazur:

Do I have to be an authority to give my opinions based on what I have read and seen over the years?

Quran condemns the jews and homosexuals. I suppose this I made up as well?

I am not trying to get in to a lengthy debate here, but to claim Islam do not condone violence is just lies.

biina:


You are free to give your opinion on issues, but knowing your level of knowledge of the matter lets one know either to take your opinions serios or treat as comments from someone who is ignorant of the issue being discussed. If you do not know anything concrete about Islam, then your opinion should simply be ignored.

ElRazur:

Dude it crack me up every time you use this simley -->   I always have this image of you in my head with a bendy neck.

Look you are admitting Islam was spread by war. In fact it was spread via war, fear, intimidation etc All of these fall under the umbrella of violence. That is my point and what I am talking about.

I never made mention of Christianity, thanks for moving the goal post though. Oh wait allow me to bend my neck like I imagine you do yours ---> lmao.

biina:

and the bible too condemned judaism and homosexuality. So what is your point?

You are free to give your opinion on issues, but knowing your level of knowledge of the matter lets one know either to take your opinions serios or treat as comments from someone who is ignorant of the issue being discussed. If you do not know anything concrete about Islam, then your opinion should simply be ignored.

There is no lengthy debate to be had.
Does Islam preach violence? No. Can I find verses in the Quran to support violent acts? Yes.
Same applies to Christianity.

ElRazur:


Afam.
Glad to see that you are still "looking for allies" across thread. Good to see my post have such effect on you. Plus points for me. Here is a little tip, you can learn to ignore me completely without side talking to me. Simple common sense.

biina:

Was Islam ever spread by war? Yes, but then so was Christianity.
Were all muslims converted by force? No, but then same applies to christians.

So the point of your question was?

Tayo-D:

Frankly, I think it is very disingenous of people to make this kind of comparison between Christianity and Islam. As you rightly pointed out previously, perhaps it is some of the followers that are not practicing each of the faith the way it was meant to be practiced. So in order to know what each faith stands for and how it handles opposition, we need to look at the founder and the early disciples of each.

I'm sure no one can accuse Jesus or any of His early disciples of promoting or practicing violence in any way, shape or form.  They were infact on the receiving end of violence but never struck back.  That is the model of Christianity.  Every thing else is an aberration.


Qustion is can same be said of Mohammed and his early Disciples? Absolutely not. Mohammed killed for the cause of his religion and his early disciples killed each other to succeed him. The Shia and Sunni sects of Islam are products of the armed conflict that arose immediately after Mohammed's death.

We know of Peter and Paul having conflicts and are aware of the conflict betwen Paul and Barnabbas. Did any of this lead to the shedding of blood? No.  But you can't say the same for the early Disciples of Islam. What more proof do you need that both faiths approach violence differently?

Tayo-D:

Frankly, I think it is very disingenous of people to make this kind of comparison between Christianity and Islam. As you rightly pointed out previously, perhaps it is some of the followers that are not practicing each of the faith the way it was meant to be practiced. So in order to know what each faith stands for and how it handles opposition, we need to look at the founder and the early disciples of each.

I'm sure no one can accuse Jesus or any of His early disciples of promoting or practicing violence in any way, shape or form.  They were infact on the receiving end of violence but never struck back.  That is the model of Christianity.  Every thing else is an aberration.


Qustion is can same be said of Mohammed and his early Disciples? Absolutely not. Mohammed killed for the cause of his religion and his early disciples killed each other to succeed him. The Shia and Sunni sects of Islam are products of the armed conflict that arose immediately after Mohammed's death.

We know of Peter and Paul having conflicts and are aware of the conflict betwen Paul and Barnabbas. Did any of this lead to the shedding of blood? No.  But you can't say the same for the early Disciples of Islam. What more proof do you need that both faiths approach violence differently?

ElRazur:

Binna. You are weird. Let me keep it simple.

1. I read the thread.

2. I made a point based on something I know and see - I am talking entirely about Islam.

3.YOu disputed, but later accepted.

mikeansy:

I do not put the sins of any individual on any religion, I just condemn a religion's refusal to condemn violence within its midst

bawomolo:

is your argument that both religions became militarized at different times so one had a better approach?

what exactly separates the teutonic knights from the taliban.

Religion can be used for good and bad.

ElRazur:

Dude it sucks when people keep missing the point. I was making a point and a point solely on Islam. A point which you denied, then came back to acknowledge as a correct one later. I never raised any point about Christianity. In case you are missing the point, I am repeating it again. My point is focused on Islam and that is precisely what am doing.

Seeing that you are more or less trying to "attack the man" instead of the message at hand, it speaks a lot about you isn't?

Islam do not promote violence, yet the Battle of Badr as recorded in the quran looks nothing more than violence to me.  Quran never preached violence yet Muhammed gave a mandate of "Kill any jews that falls into your power" Now as I understand it, the  Quran is the ultimate book of how muslims should live their life etc.  Yeah you are so right, it never preached violence.

In Ibn Ishaq 992, he killed children. Yet this in your eyes is not violence? In fact, here is what muhammed says "“Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.  Do not be deceitful with the spoils; do not be treacherous, nor mutilate nor kill children"  Yeah what a peaceful loving son of a woman he is. Allahu akbar.

Dude I can go on and on. But Next time, let us stick to the point at hand. Islam promotes violence and damn well preaches it. That is my point and you have already accepted that. What is your problem?

Disingenious is you making unfair comparisms.

Jesus was God on earth. Mohammed never claimed to be God, only a prophet, and thus cannot be subjected to the same standard. For a fair comparism, pick another prophet of God like Elijah or Elisha, or does christianity not recognizer those as prophets of God?

Elisha killed children and Elijah killed the prophets of baal. Joshua and other judges led the Isrealites on several offensive military campaigns. Deborah drove a peg into a man's head. Are these people not recognized to have acted out the wishes of God by christians. Did Abraham not fight wars or is he not called the father of faith?

and before you give the OT vs NT excuse, I guess when peter took off the ear of the soldier trying to arrest jesus, no blood was spilled?   (Have you ever wondered what he might have swung at that resulted in the loss of ear. I would wager he swung at the soldiers head and the guy ducked but not quickly enough).

Propensity to violence is a character trait not a religious ideal.

Tayo-D:

@biina,
There is nothing unfair about the comparisons. To know the intent of the religion, look at its founder. Jesus and Mohammed therefore become the subject.

Jesus may have been God on the inside, but He never lived like God on earth but like a human being. And besides, He assumed the office of a Prophet. The Bible calls Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.  He is our role model not the other people you mentioned. Mohammed on the other hand is the role model for moslems. Infact, in the confession fo their faith, Allah and Mohammed are used in the same sentence. So what is your point?
If you can claim that one of these people is a Christian, then you win the argument. Over to you!
What you failed to realise is that Jesus rebuked him for the action which he never repeated when he became a Christian. This same Peter was crucified upside down and burnt at the stake. Who amongst Mohammed's followers did he rebuke for attacking another person? Didn't he promise that whoever kills an unbliever will never share hell with the unbeliever he kills?[


Everyone is prone to violence. The question is does the religion promote violence or not. The answer can be found by looking at the founders' examples. That's very fair, innit?

biina:

Jesus did not found christianity. It was used to describe early believers after his death. Your equivalence would be the apostles.
So those actions referenced were not the actions of people of God or the words of moses were not the word of God?
If it makes you happy, the apostles broke out of jail, so Christianity supports prison break?

So those actions referenced were not the actions of people of God or the words of moses were not the word of God?

If it makes you happy, the apostles broke out of jail, so Christianity supports prison break?

Tayo-D:

I never said that. Someone was here talking about Islam, and you took the liberty to draw comparisons btwn Christianity and Islam. I have only limited myself to the issue of Islam and Christianity which sems to be the center of your argument.

If God breaks open the jail, I'll walk out. Doesmy walking out of an open jail advocate violence? At this point, it is better to admit you were wrong rather than trying to look for issues that have no bearing to the discussion.

I didnt say Christianity and Islam had the same values. Please read the thread.
Someone concluded from the statements of Khameni, that Islam was a blood thirsty and savage religion.
I made an analogy that since some christians pray for the death of their enemies that it makes christianity a blood thirsty and savage religion.
It was about applying the same logic to the two religions but some in trying to justify the earlier assertion were trying to find evidence of support of violence by Islam, and I only retorted in kind with evidence of God approved violence in the bible.

Your walking out of incaceration against the will of the judiciary of the nation, advocates breaking out of prison if the opportunity arises.

If you feel you can use the violent actions of muhammed to conclude that Islam supports violence, I can, by same logic, conclude that since Peter broke out of jail, Christianity supports jail breaks.

It is all relevant to the issue at hand, which is simply to use equal measure. Don't criticize Islam based on the logic that you would not want applied to christianity. People shouldnt dish out what they cannot accept.

biina:

You made a declaration, I questioned your authority on the issue. How is that a dispute of the statement made. Yet you have not proven thatyour statement that violence is a bed rock of Islam  i.e. foundations on which Islam was built. The bedrock of Islam are the 5 pillars of Islam. Please state which ones support your claims.

You posted in a thread and your post should be interpreted in the context of the thread. Don't try to cop out and want your post processed in isolation.

If by muhammed fighting wars, that you conclude that violence is the bedrock of Islam, then I can conclude that by Abraham, Moses and co fighting and/or killing others, that same violence is a bedrock of Christianity.

Equal measure should be applied to both religions.

Tayo-D:

@biina,
Even the logic you applied isn't anyway comparable. Personally, I do not pray for God to kill anybody, but I do believe that God can do just that as He wills. And while I am not excusing the ignorant prayers of those Christians, never have I sen any church go ona mad rampage after their services destroying properties and killing people like we see in Islam. Maybe they believe that God will do it at His will while the Moslems believe they are God's agents to kill people. these are two diferent schools of thought.

Don't give yourself the liberty to add to what I have said. I never advocated for violence or breaking out of jail. Let's be honest in this discussion.
Peter never brke out of jail And if you care to read and understand, he actually felt he was dreaming throught the whole episode. Whwere was the violence.

You have not applied same logic here at all. I did not extrapolate violence into Mohammed's life. He practiced it. You are the one extrapolating here which is an evidence that you have lost the battle of logic.