Bobbyaf:

I am not here to win. God is the winner when truth is revealed and accepted. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments", John 14:15

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot freely disobey God's instructions, and at the same time claim to have a relationship with Him.

And the greatest commandment is what? Matthew 22:36-40
Jesus fulfilled the LAW.

God bless!!!!

NEW WORLD ORDER.THE DEVIL IN THE VATICAN!!
A MUST WATCH VIDEO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLp9xigjajM&feature=related

@ ogajim

And the greatest commandment is what? Matthew 22:36-40
Jesus fulfilled the LAW.

God bless!!!!

What law did he fulfill may I ask? And what do you understand [b]fulfill [/b]to mean?

Lady, it's not so nice to write with such temper. We're all christians. Remember proverbs 26:5 says Do not talk to a fool lest he thinks you be like him, yet verse 6 tells you to talk to a fool lest he thinks he's wise. We must act according to wits. This sabbath people all think this way, so It's your job to show them love by answering their questions and revealing to them their wrongs. That's why I told him to tell me about their doctrine so that I pin point their fallacies on-the-fly.

I didn't write with a temper. I just wanted to point something. I've discussed with Bobbyaf several times. Believe me he will not answer any questions you pose to him. He beats around the bush and changes the subject. You can always tell the devil's work. He never faces truth, he never answers questions, he always avoids giving a direct answer, he is so cunnying he will twist the truth to his advantage.

Bobbyaf has attacked the Catholic Church, and he doesn't care to listen to what you or I have to say. He has an agenda, unfortunately he doesn't know that he's actually fighting against God's Church.

He likes that we're paying him too much attention and that's why I ask everyone to leave him and the others alone. Let them wallow in their foolishness, when they face God they will have to explain why they stand against his Church.

NEW WORLD ORDER.THE DEVIL IN THE VATICAN!!
A MUST WATCH VIDEO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLp9xigjajM&feature=related

I am really sorry for the innocent Catholics who have been caught in the Vatican's web of deceit and lies. Only God can deliver them from now on. Time is short and soon the mark will be established, first in the US, and then throughout the world.

Lady please ignore the fool,I had not wanted to post again until I saw ur mail.Please let's ignore this ignoramus

I didn't write with a temper. I just wanted to point something. I've discussed with Bobbyaf several times. Believe me he will not answer any questions you pose to him. He beats around the bush and changes the subject. You can always tell the devil's work. He never faces truth, he never answers questions, he always avoids giving a direct answer, he is so cunnying he will twist the truth to his advantage.

I challenge you on that diabolic lie. Go through all of my posts where I have addressed all your issues, including those with whatever questions you alluded to that I have refused to answer.  

Bobbyaf has attacked the Catholic Church, and he doesn't care to listen to what you or I have to say. He has an agenda, unfortunately he doesn't know that he's actually fighting against God's Church.

I do not attack people. I attack deceitful institutions like the leaders who lead innocent people astray. Don't confuse the issues, and certainly do not confuse the readers of the thread.


Your so-called "God's church" killed millions of innocent Christians whose only crime was to follow bible truth rather than the RCC's dogmas. Your so-called "God's church" at one point had 3 popes vying for power. That is not what Christ established and bequeathed to His disciples.

He likes that we're paying him too much attention and that's why I ask everyone to leave him and the others alone. Let them wallow in their foolishness, when they face God they will have to explain why they stand against his Church.

Its funny how you and your catholic sympathizers keep coming back.

Lady please ignore the fool,I had not wanted to post again until I saw ur mail.Please let's ignore this ignoramus

Be careful lest you damn yourself to hell. Recall what Jesus said about calling people who know God as fools. Its obvious that you do not even know your bible.

@ Lady and Chukwudi44



Just take a look at the above death from one of the inquisition methods employed by your so-called "God's church"

I challenge you on that diabolic lie. Go through all of my posts where I have addressed all your issues, including those with whatever questions you alluded to that I have refused to answer.

Seriously Bobby, you really want to go there?
How does Z answer A?
How many times have I asked you questions about the Bible and then when you're not able to sensibly answer, you jump to "You should see the Roman paganism in the Catholic Church"

Honey you're a broken record and everyone knows it.

I do not attack people. I attack deceitful institutions like the leaders who lead innocent people astray. Don't confuse the issues, and certainly do not confuse the readers of the thread.

I don't think you know what the definition of confusion is.
No one is leading anyone astray, except for you who cannot have a life without attacking the Catholic Church.
If truly you had good intentions you would have addressed the many issues and questions that have been posted to you.

You never make any sense of anything Bobby, and that's why when questions are asked of you, you immediately jump to your rants. Because you have nothing new.
It amazes me to see people who think they have the fresh new idea of delivering people from the Catholic Church. Do you think you're the first one? Do you think these issues haven't been addressed before?
Bobby you go around in circles spewing the same nonsense and in the process you confuse yourself.
You really think all these crap your raising we haven't seen it and refuted it before?
Been there done that. Stop coming with these "golden" ideas that will convert people. If a Catholic knows his or her faith they won't convert if anything you make others believe more in the Catholic faith.
I certainly know that when I've had discussions with intelligent people and I've answered their questions and they've answered my questions, one of us ends up converting. Guess what this past Easter, some of my friends became Catholic, because their eyes were finally opened and they no longer had to be slaves to hatred for the unknown.

If you were truly honest, you would've addressed the issues I brought up earlier in this thread and you would've logically held a discussion.
But you didn't do that Bobby, instead you talked about something else that had nothing to do with the topic.

Your so-called "God's church" killed millions of innocent Christians whose only crime was to follow bible truth rather than the RCC's dogmas. Your so-called "God's church" at one point had 3 popes vying for power. That is not what Christ established and bequeathed to His disciples

Really Bible truth? Bible truth that contradicts the Bible? Really Bobby? Bible truths that they all disagree on? Which one is right Bobby? Can you tell me that?
Killed millions of what innocent christians. You mean the christians that massacred Catholic Christians for holding their beliefs or do you mean the Christians that kill and humiliate and are bigots towards Catholic Christians. Or are you not aware that the only accepted form of prejudice permitted today is that of anti-catholicism.

And have you forgotten that God himself chose and gave the power to cast out demons to a man that betrayed him? Yes the same man who had the Holy Spirit working through him betrayed Christ.
Or is it that you are not aware that even those whose writings you consider infallible abandoned God and denied him when he needed them the most.
The same people he gave the power to cast out demons and to heal people and to forgive are the same people who abandoned and betrayed him.
So are you going to make the claim that because they abandoned God and betrayed him they couldn't possibly have been the real disciples and apostles or God's Church? Or what did they do the same consipiray theory and gotten rid of the real apostles and portrayed themselves as the real apostles?

How does the actions of a few people lead to Catholic Church not being God's Church?
Or better yet, where in the Bible does it say that God's Church will not defend herself against heresies or she will be perfect in actions?

Its funny how you and your catholic sympathizers keep coming back.

I keep asking myself why, and then I realise that Christ would come back too. He would even still love those who betray him and abandon him and speak negatively of him.

The Pharisees plotted his death but he did not have an ounce of hatred for them instead he forgave them. Therefore I cannot have an ounce of hatred for you.

A quick question: What makes you think you're not wrong? Are you the infallible interpreter of the Bible?

@ Lady

Seriously Bobby, you really want to go there?

Yes I do. Show us the posts from any thread where you asked a question and I didn't answer. The onus is on you to prove your case.

How does Z answer A?How many times have I asked you questions about the Bible and then when you're not able to sensibly answer, you jump to "You should see the Roman paganism in the Catholic Church"

As I have said prove your case!

Honey you're a broken record and everyone knows it.

To you it is, but to others it is otherwise.

I don't think you know what the definition of confusion is. No one is leading anyone astray, except for you who cannot have a life without attacking the Catholic Church.

Take for example. You have not yet responded to the very photos obviously displaying open idolatry among Catholics members and leaders alike. Instead you and that Chukwudi of yours, the one among you with the least amount of sense, are on the defensive. Good! That is exactly where I want the whole lot of you. Defend with lies and vain arguments, if you choose.

If truly you had good intentions you would have addressed the many issues and questions that have been posted to you.

The bible makes this an important issue, and since you are taught to ignore the bible and to follow Catholic tradition instead, hence your response.

You never make any sense of anything Bobby, and that's why when questions are asked of you, you immediately jump to your rants. Because you have nothing new.

Rants?  Listen to yourself, you who find it so easy calling people all sorts of names? 

It amazes me to see people who think they have the fresh new idea of delivering people from the Catholic Church. Do you think you're the first one? Do you think these issues haven't been addressed before?
Bobby you go around in circles spewing the same nonsense and in the process you confuse yourself.
You really think all these crap your raising we haven't seen it and refuted it before?

If it were nonsense then why are Catholics leaving the church?

Been there done that. Stop coming with these "golden" ideas that will convert people. If a Catholic knows his or her faith they won't convert if anything you make others believe more in the Catholic faith.
I certainly know that when I've had discussions with intelligent people and I've answered their questions and they've answered my questions, one of us ends up converting. Guess what this past Easter, some of my friends became Catholic, because their eyes were finally opened and they no longer had to be slaves to hatred for the unknown.

They became Catholics, but are they born-again Christians? Do they know Christ as their Mediator, rather than Mary or dead saints?

If you were truly honest, you would've addressed the issues I brought up earlier in this thread and you would've logically held a discussion. But you didn't do that Bobby, instead you talked about something else that had nothing to do with the topic.

No amount of feigning can help you lady. Deep down you know you have no case against the truth. As long as you remain a catholic you dare not use the bible to defend your teachings. You know it and we know it. So quit the crap about not responding to the issues you have brought up, as if they are really relevant.

Really Bible truth? Bible truth that contradicts the Bible? Really Bobby? Bible truths that they all disagree on? Which one is right Bobby? Can you tell me that?
Killed millions of what innocent christians. You mean the christians that massacred Catholic Christians for holding their beliefs or do you mean the Christians that kill and humiliate and are bigots towards Catholic Christians. Or are you not aware that the only accepted form of prejudice permitted today is that of anti-catholicism.

Do a google on the inquisition and come back to the forum. Catholics die when they delve in politics, as your leaders are known for doing. Its usually their own doing.

And have you forgotten that God himself chose and gave the power to cast out demons to a man that betrayed him?

Deny not betray! Get your facts straight please.

Yes the same man who had the Holy Spirit working through him betrayed Christ. Or is it that you are not aware that even those whose writings you consider infallible abandoned God and denied him when he needed them the most.

Don't confuse the issue here lady. God's Holy Spirit can only enter a person when they are truly ready. Peter and the rest of the disciples were not ready even when Jesus called them for ministry. The convicting work of the Holy Spirit had to take place first before the anointing. However, whenever such a person is born again then the change becomes obvious. "Old things are passed away, behold all things become new"

The same people he gave the power to cast out demons and to heal people and to forgive are the same people who abandoned and betrayed him.

Thank God for His patience, heh!

So are you going to make the claim that because they abandoned God and betrayed him they couldn't possibly have been the real disciples and apostles or God's Church?

That was never my line of argument. Notice you're the one introducing it, not me.

How does the actions of a few people lead to Catholic Church not being God's Church?
Or better yet, where in the Bible does it say that God's Church will not defend herself against heresies or she will be perfect in actions?

Because Jesus said otherwise. God says "vengeance belongs to me" God's church was never called to defend itself using the inquisition that killed people who simply accepted the bible as their standard of truth. Stop trying to justify evil. Open your eyes.

[Quote]
I keep asking myself why, and then I realise that Christ would come back too. He would even still love those who betray him and abandon him and speak negatively of him.[/quote]

Make sure you think before you blabber your mouth next time.

The Pharisees plotted his death but he did not have an ounce of hatred for them instead he forgave them. Therefore I cannot have an ounce of hatred for you.

And you dare not deny that many a deaths were plotted by the RCC.

A quick question: What makes you think you're not wrong? Are you the infallible interpreter of the Bible?

Because I use the bible as my guide, and not the catechism.

[quote][/quote]

Yes I do. Show us the posts from any thread where you asked a question and I didn't answer. The onus is on you to prove your case.

You really think I am like you who doesn't have a life, that I'd take my time to go dig up convos we had a very long time ago?
But the immediate one is the one below. You didn't provide me with an answer, instead you asked me a question.

"Did he use the Priests in the OT and didn't he use prophets to speak to the people?
Why didn't he speak to each individual?"

To you it is, but to others it is otherwise.

No honey not just to me, that's why there have been people who are not Catholics that have come to this particular thread and asked you to stop being judgmental.
But they're irrelevant because they disagree with you right?.

Take for example. You have not yet responded to the very photos obviously displaying open idolatry among Catholics members and leaders alike. Instead you and that Chukwudi of yours, the one among you with the least amount of sense, are on the defensive. Good! That is exactly where I want the whole lot of you. Defend with lies and vain arguments, if you choose.

I have addressed them, go back to page one and two. Because I don't copy the pictures does not mean I am not talking about the pictures.

The bible makes this an important issue, and since you are taught to ignore the bible and to follow Catholic tradition instead, hence your response.

This is rather big assumption. Can you provide me with Catholic teaching that says we should ignore the Bible, and in case you didn't know the Bible is a Catholic tradition.

Rants? Listen to yourself, you who find it so easy calling people all sorts of names?

Calling who names?
Isn't Bobby your name?
Didn't I call you Bobby?

If it were nonsense then why are Catholics leaving the church?

For the same reason why some people are leaving the Christian faith and joining Islam or becoming atheist. Lack of understanding of the Christian faith.
Also you are aware that there are more people joining the Church than there are leaving right?

They became Catholics, but are they born-again Christians? Do they know Christ as their Mediator, rather than Mary or dead saints?

They understand the fullness of truth better than they ever did. By the way the fastest converters to the Catholic faith are evangelical pastors who set out to rescue the Catholics. When they finally see the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and interpret it properly they become Catholic. Do a search on the evangelicals that have become Catholic, they are one of the best defenders of the Catholic faith right now.

You also do not know what born-again means apparently.

No amount of feigning can help you lady. Deep down you know you have no case against the truth. As long as you remain a catholic you dare not use the bible to defend your teachings. You know it and we know it. So quit the crap about not responding to the issues you have brought up, as if they are really relevant.

Lol oh honey I once was blind but now I can see. I was a protestant who believed Catholics were idol worshippers and I was always told they weren't. So I said ok fine I will stop being afraid and learn what Catholics really believe. When I did and started reading the Bible, and researched history I became Catholic. It wasn't easy and when I finally stepped into the Catholic Church for Mass, I knew I was home. I knew God was physically present. And then I paid attention to the words used at Mass and I realised the words used at Mass are actually Biblical words, word for word. Wow!! I was amazed and ashamed for the many times that I spent away from God and His Church.

So rather than going off of what someone told me that they heard from someone that heard from someone, I do my own research and find the truth and for the first time, I started becoming honest with myself. Rather than making Christianity what I wanted it to be just to make myself feel better.

Lol I dare not use the Bible to defend my beliefs? So all those Bible passages that I've been posting they've been from gbalalalala land Bible?
My issues are irrelevant? And yet you were trying to say that you address them?
You're contradicting yourself Bobby, get your story straight.
It's either my issues have been relevant enough for you to address them, or they've been irrelevant that you haven't addressed them.

The only person that would consider another person's point of view irrelevant is the person that is insecure in his own belief.
What are you too scared to address the issues?

Do a google on the inquisition and come back to the forum. Catholics die when they delve in politics, as your leaders are known for doing. Its usually their own doing.

Honey do you really want me to educate you on the history of the inquisition because I will.

Deny not betray! Get your facts straight please.

So Judas didn't betray Jesus?

Don't confuse the issue here lady. God's Holy Spirit can only enter a person when they are truly ready. Peter and the rest of the disciples were not ready even when Jesus called them for ministry. The convicting work of the Holy Spirit had to take place first before the anointing. However, whenever such a person is born again then the change becomes obvious. "Old things are passed away, behold all things become new"

Well then you need to consult your Bible again mister, because even before the birth of Jesus and before his ministry the Holy Spirit had already filled others. One in particular is Mary. Don't forget Simeon also.
And to look at the Holy Spirit with your eyes is to say that the Holy Spirit didn't exist before the coming of Christ. The Holy Spirit was present in the OT, they just were not aware of him as the Holy Spirit, but they knew of the Spirit of God. And several men in the OT were filled with the Spirit of God.
Now when Jesus sent out his apostles to heal and cast out demons, they did so on the power of the Holy Spirit.

That was never my line of argument. Notice you're the one introducing it, not me.

It is your line of argument. I am just presenting it to you from a different angle. See you're quick to say that God's Church could never do this or never do that. Well I'm trying to get you to see how flawed your argument is by showing you that even with God in their midst God's Church couldn't always get their acts straight. So because the apostles were sinners does not mean that they were never a part of God's true Church. Because they abandoned him does not mean that they are not God's Church.

Impeccability does not mean infallibility (I am assuming you know the meaning of impeccability and infallibility, if you do not, please look it up in Oxford's dictionary)

Because Jesus said otherwise. God says "vengeance belongs to me" God's church was never called to defend itself using the inquisition that killed people who simply accepted the bible as their standard of truth. Stop trying to justify evil. Open your eyes.

1) I never justify evil, I correct people's knowledge of what they deem evil, if it was not evil
2) I suppose you're referring to the Spanish Inquisiton, it wasn't started by the Catholic Church, it was started by Monarchs who happened to be Catholic.
3) No where in the Bible does it say that we cannot defend ourselves from heretical teachings and from invaders.
4) If anything it is evident in the Bible by St. Paul that speaking against heresies is good, now the method of doing so was wrong by the Church, but nonetheless it wasn't wrong to fight heresies.
5) My point was that even if the members of the Church or the Pope were to engage in an evil act does not in anyway take away from the Church being the Church founded by Christ.

No where did Christ say that the members of the Church will be perfect, but that the Church will never teach heresy. So when it comes to the teaching on faith and morals, the Church isn't wrong and never has been wrong.
However when it comes to the actions of the members, the Church can and has been wrong.

The apostles taught the truth, but they were not perfect people. They were still sinners.

Because I use the bible as my guide, and not the catechism.

So you're claiming to be the infallible interpreter of the Bible?

How were they used in worship? Were they made for worship, or were they made to represent the heavenly sanctuary, and what is carried out in the heavenly sanctuary above? Were you aware that Moses was instructed to build the tabernacle according to what was shown to him on the mount? Moses was shown a copy of the heavenly tabernacle above, and the object of the earthly sanctuary was to provide for the children of Israel a proper understanding of the plan of salvation. You're mistaken about the things of the ark of the covenant being used in worship. If that were the case, then why weren't they displayed outside for the people to see them? Why were they compartmentalized?

They were not made for worship and neither are the statues you see. Those statues are not being worshipped.
They were made to represent the heavenly sanctuary, and if you've been paying attention you will see that that's the purpose of the statues.
And that is what being used in worship means.

The ark of the covenant was revered, and by it being kept in holy of holies it is the perfect act of reverence that could be given to the ark of the covenant

How do you explain the photos above? Why is it necessary for persons to be bowing down before a so-called statue of Mary?

The photos above are very fine. Those statues are not being worshipped, they are used in the same way that the ark of the covenant, the bronze serpent and other images in the temple were being used.
It is also not necessary for persons to bow before the statue, it is completely voluntary. There is not a teaching that says one must bow.
Also bowing does not equate to worship. You will have to explain how bowing equates to worship. Also don't forget we are Africans and remember that bowing is a way of showing reverence to people and does not necessarily mean worship.
If you think bowing equates to worship, then the yorubas and Edos are guilty of worshipping people.

In what way you are yet to prove. If worship was an everyday experience, and the ark of the covenant came into play only once per year, in what way did the children of Israel utilize it for the purpose of worship?

Ok I'm trying to understand your logic here. So the ark of the covenant being utilized once a year means that they didn't use it in worship? How about that one day a year? What happened then? How does the time frame of its utilization take away from it being used in worship?
And apparently you are unaware that the Isrealites went to the temple very often and the ark was not utilized only once a year. The ark was always present in the temple in the holy of holies, and before the temple was built it was in the tent and it was utilized everyday by the Israelites. They bowed down in front of the tent that contained the ark, infact according to you bowing down in front of that tent is worshipping the tent

Your argument is so foolish. You're confusing the real issue here Lady. You're confusing God's motives for having commanded Moses to build the furniture of the ark of the covenant, and the purpose behind such objects, with man's motives for building an image for worship purposes. Besides, the furniture of the ark were hidden away from the worshipers view. During worship God was on the people's mind, not the furniture. No one was seeing bowing down to them anyway, so what is the big deal of your argument?

No sir I am not confusing the real issue. It is because I understand God's motives and purpose for commanding the building of the images that I actually understand the first commandment.
I am glad you saw it as foolish because all I did was used your logic, maybe now you will see that it is not the use of these images in the sanctuary that is the problem it is the actual worshipping of it that is. And that as those images were to set the people's mind to God, so do the statues set our mind to God.
I am glad you see that it is God that was on the people's minds and not the furniture, same thing with the images. They are to set our minds to God and to things of heaven. Our focus is not on the statues themselves but on God and heaven.
So you see just because you see pictures of people bowing to a statue does not mean they are worshipping it, otherwise you would be guilty of it too, for praying in a room that has the image of anything, infact praying in a room would be worshipping it according to you.
The making of the images aren't wrong, having it in the sanctuary isn't wrong because during worship our eyes are set on God.

And no the images were not always hidden. Remember the ark went before the people when they moved and they worshipped at that time. And if you know anything about Jewish worship, they bow a lot. So yes they bowed in front of the ark.

Exactly! So how would that have enhanced anyone's worship, if they were afraid? Based on your argument no one would feel comfortable being around it. Besides, the only reason it was even seen was because it was being transported to another location when the tent was being removed.

Because of what the word worship means. By not touching it, they have a great reverence for it the same reverence as for God. Why would they have such a reverence for an image if the use of images are wrong, why would God make them have reverence for something that is wrong?

It makes no sense to you because you have misconstrued the significance of the objects of furniture in the ark of the covenant. They were designed to illustrate the plan of salvation in a miniature sense. They were never intended to be the objects of focus.

Good, now you're making my point. Just because an image is seen doesn't mean the image itself is the object of focus. For one to think so, one is only assuming things

How would you know the motives for the introduction of icons? Why not simply teach people to read the bible!

The same way we know everything else, HISTORY!!!
Because has not always been available.
The Church was left without scripture for 400 years. What happens to the people before then? They weren't going to heaven because they didn't read the Bible?
Also there was no priniting press, you guys assume the Bible was available as it is today.
The Bible was copied by hand by monks for years. It took at least 1 year to copy 1 complete Bible, so tell me for a Church that was always on the move and vastly growing, how many years would they have gotten copies of the Bible to the people?
Also the Bible was not always in the same language. You'd have to teach the people, hebrew, greek and aramaic at the same time. When the Bible was translated into one language for the first time into Latin by St. Jerome not everyone spoke latin it was mostly the educated that did, and even they couldn't afford the Bible, it was mostly owned by Kings and Queens and it too years for them to even get it.

Yet we are told whose image we were made in. Wasn't it Moses who wrote the creation story? God's people already knew that, so your argument doesn't make sense.

So what are you saying? God has breasts, a vagina, and a penis at the same time?

A dove? When was that?

Um the Holy Spirit or have you forgotten that He's the 3rd person of the Trinity?

Go re-read the 2nd commandment? It said nothing of the sort. Simply put God didn't want to be worshiped using images of anything above, beneath, or on the earth. God knew what was likely to take place, and njpped it in the bud. God also knew that it was the manner of the surrounding heathens to utilize images, and that His own people had grown accustomed to the ways of the Egyptians.

Isn't this exactly what was said above? You need to start remembering things.

I already did above. Are angels worshiped? If not explain why God allowed Moses to carve them, and hide them in the sanctuary?

1) Start asking questions pertaining to what I am talking about
2) Can you explain how USED in worship equates to BEING worshipped
3) Angels were used in worship
4) In Daniel 8:17 Daniel bows down in front of angel gabriel. Will you equate that to worshipping Gabriel?

Bobbyaf:

@ ogajim

What law did he fulfill may I ask? And what do you understand [b]fulfill [/b]to mean?

Dude, You seem like an over medicated bozo if you have to ask which law Jesus Christ ( our High Priest) fulfilled and I reserve the right not to get embedded in this pre K stuff.


Good luck.

haha. .   the guy na muroose

@ Lady
Don't argue with idiots. They will bring u down to their level and beat u with experience. Just let him be.

How do u have a debate with someone that has spent all these pages dismissing everything that comes his way, and cherry pickin the questions he anwsers. . .do u really think this is goin anywhere? He isn't here for a debate. He came to push an agenda of hate. If he had the authority u would be burnin at the stake right now. He is no better than the medieval Catholic church he is condemning. His way is the right way and all others must be nonsense. At least the catholic church learned from their mistakes.

You said this - Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things.

That makes absolutely no sense . . . its just like saying there is a difference between eating rice and using rice to eat.

Can you then enlighten me how USED in worship equates to BEING worshipped.

And your example makes no sense. A proper one would be a spoon used to eat rice, but the spoon itself not being eaten.

A spoon can be USED to eat rice, but the spoon cannot be eaten.

The Spoon is being USED, the rice is BEING eaten.

There is a difference between USED and BEING.

The definitions
USED
–verb (used with object) 1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.

BEING
–verb (used without object) 1. to exist or live: Shakespeare's “To be or not to be” is the ultimate question.
2. to take place; happen; occur

USED is in support of a noun.
BEING is the noun itself.
Big difference

As stated above
One is used with an object, the other is without an object. They are opposites.

following the thread.

if i were pagan, i'd get converted by lady.

job well done lady

@ Lady

You really think I am like you who doesn't have a life, that I'd take my time to go dig up convos we had a very long time ago?

Feisty as usual, heh! I do have a life that is dedicated to Christ. I'd rather spend quality time delivering His truth, than worry about temporal matters.

But the immediate one is the one below. You didn't provide me with an answer, instead you asked me a question.

"Did he use the Priests in the OT and didn't he use prophets to speak to the people?
Why didn't he speak to each individual?"

Yes He used both sets of offices that were specifically introduced for a particular reason. The priests represented the people to God, while prophets represented God to the people. The Priests had a set of instructions to follow that were given by the prophets, as it related to the sanctuary services. The prophets were the mouth piece of God ensuring that God's will was known to both the people and the priests.

In the case of worship however, each person came to God as individuals. Each person developed their own relationship with God on a daily basis. If there was a matter that needed to be brought to the people, the prophet would make God's will known through revelations and visions.

No honey not just to me, that's why there have been people who are not Catholics that have come to this particular thread and asked you to stop being judgmental. But they're irrelevant because they disagree with you right?.

All are free to come as long as they do not attempt to derail my thread. If they say I am judgmental its only because they do not realize the importance truth. What would be the point of stressing love, if that love is built on a false premise of ignoring God's gems of truth? It simply means that they do not know God, and are falsely representing Him. Sin must be exposed as sin even if it means offending those who practice it. Jesus once said "truth is an offense but not a sin"

I have addressed them, go back to page one and two. Because I don't copy the pictures does not mean I am not talking about the pictures.

Yes you responded by defending idolatry, rather than confess that what has been displayed in the photos are downright wrong and sinful. How can anyone see those photos and walk away arguing about the semantics of worship? How can you, when its obvious what is happening.

This is rather big assumption. Can you provide me with Catholic teaching that says we should ignore the Bible, and in case you didn't know the Bible is a Catholic tradition.

But that is what the thread is all about. The photos are proof enough. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Calling who names? Isn't Bobby your name? Didn't I call you Bobby?

But in post 123 you said these words, "There is a saying: Never wrestle with a pig, you will only get dirty and the pig will only like it. Ignorance certainly is the best answer for a fool. Apparently Bobbyaf has shown that he doesn't know what reason is."

For the same reason why some people are leaving the Christian faith and joining Islam or becoming atheist. Lack of understanding of the Christian faith. Also you are aware that there are more people joining the Church than there are leaving right?

Because most of those people find the catholic church a rather convenient place to be, seeing they can smoke, and drink alcoholic beverages, and commit all manner of sins. They don't worry you see. They can always confess their sins to a priest rather than go directly to Jesus.

They understand the fullness of truth better than they ever did. By the way the fastest converters to the Catholic faith are evangelical pastors who set out to rescue the Catholics. When they finally see the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and interpret it properly they become Catholic. Do a search on the evangelicals that have become Catholic, they are one of the best defenders of the Catholic faith right now.

Because they fear the Catholic church, nothing more. They are spineless creatures.

You also do not know what born-again means apparently.

Really? Are those that are bowing before those images of Mary really born again as the bible suggests? Wake up Lady. Wake up before its eternally too late.

Lol oh honey I once was blind but now I can see. I was a protestant who believed Catholics were idol worshippers and I was always told they weren't. So I said ok fine I will stop being afraid and learn what Catholics really believe. When I did and started reading the Bible, and researched history I became Catholic. It wasn't easy and when I finally stepped into the Catholic Church for Mass, I knew I was home. I knew God was physically present. And then I paid attention to the words used at Mass and I realised the words used at Mass are actually Biblical words, word for word. Wow!! I was amazed and ashamed for the many times that I spent away from God and His Church.

I will leave you to be the judge of that. Both you and God know. I am not in a position to judge your sincerity, but you are going to need more than that to endure to the end.

So rather than going off of what someone told me that they heard from someone that heard from someone, I do my own research and find the truth and for the first time, I started becoming honest with myself. Rather than making Christianity what I wanted it to be just to make myself feel better.

If that is the case how come there is such a vast difference between what is taught in the Catechism, and what is taught in the bible. Let me give you an example, According to the Bible, it was God's design for a husband and wife to become one flesh and to cleave to each other, and yet the Roman Catholic church says otherwise. They have another man-made doctrine condemning priests to celibacy, something which God never intended. Bishops i.e. pastors, according the Bible are supposed the husband of one wife (I Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:6), Roman Catholicism adds to the Bible by placing an undue burden upon the clergy by forbidding them to marry (I Timothy 4:1-3), the Bible calls this a "doctrine of devils!"

My issues are irrelevant? And yet you were trying to say that you address them? You're contradicting yourself Bobby, get your story straight.

Out of courtesy I addressed them even though they were irrelevant.

The only person that would consider another person's point of view irrelevant is the person that is insecure in his own belief. What are you too scared to address the issues?

Is that your reason for my finding your posts irrelevant?

Honey do you really want me to educate you on the history of the inquisition because I will.

Don't bother to waste your time.

So Judas didn't betray Jesus?

I am certain you weren't discussing Judas as a disciple who was being used by Jesus. The only role he played was to handle the money bag.

Well then you need to consult your Bible again mister, because even before the birth of Jesus and before his ministry the Holy Spirit had already filled others.

That was never an issue in our discussion. The discussion centered around the disciples, and you were the one who brought them up. Now in your deception you're making it look as if I am ignorant of the fact that God's Spirit did annoint others before Jesus' birth. Its typical of you to try and deceive.

One in particular is Mary. Don't forget Simeon also. And to look at the Holy Spirit with your eyes is to say that the Holy Spirit didn't exist before the coming of Christ.

I never said that. You're assuming that.

The Holy Spirit was present in the OT, they just were not aware of him as the Holy Spirit, but they knew of the Spirit of God. And several men in the OT were filled with the Spirit of God.
Now when Jesus sent out his apostles to heal and cast out demons, they did so on the power of the Holy Spirit.

Trying to prove your knowledge?

It is your line of argument. I am just presenting it to you from a different angle. See you're quick to say that God's Church could never do this or never do that. Well I'm trying to get you to see how flawed your argument is by showing you that even with God in their midst God's Church couldn't always get their acts straight.

If that is your attempt to use the early church's glitches, and minor shortcomings even in the presence of God's Son, to minimize the evils of the RCC, you're making a sad mistake. don't confuse the struggles of the followers of Christ with outright attempts to destroy persons who do not agree with the RCC's beliefs. Please don't insult our intelligence.

So because the apostles were sinners does not mean that they were never a part of God's true Church. Because they abandoned him does not mean that they are not God's Church.

No one is arguing that. This is a perfect example of one of your irrelevant points. There is a vast difference in sinning willfully, and making mistakes. The disciples made mistakes along the way, but there can be no comparison with the atrocities that were committed by the Roman catholic church during the period 538 AD to 1798 AD, when Catholicism reigned supreme, and did as it pleased.

No where did Christ say that the members of the Church will be perfect, but that the Church will never teach heresy. So when it comes to the teaching on faith and morals, the Church isn't wrong and never has been wrong. However when it comes to the actions of the members, the Church can and has been wrong.

You need a refresher course in history. Millions died not just a few.

So you're claiming to be the infallible interpreter of the Bible?

No. The Holy Spirit is.

@ Lady

Quote
You said this - Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things. That makes absolutely no sense . . . its just like saying there is a difference between eating rice and using rice to eat.

Can you then enlighten me how USED in worship equates to BEING worshipped.

that was not my quote lady. Your memory seems to be fading,

haha. .   the guy na muroose

@ Lady
Don't argue with idiots. They will bring u down to their level and beat u with experience. Just let him be.

How do u have a debate with someone that has spent all these pages dismissing everything that comes his way, and cherry pickin the questions he anwsers. . .do u really think this is goin anywhere? He isn't here for a debate. He came to push an agenda of hate. If he had the authority u would be burnin at the stake right now. He is no better than the medieval Catholic church he is condemning. His way is the right way and all others must be nonsense. At least the catholic church learned from their mistakes.

Good try but your obvious lies will get you nowhere. Besides, if you were a true Christian you'd never refer to Christians as idiots and fools, even if you disagree with them. I notice you and Chukwudi have that disposition, which proves to me that you do not reflect the love of Christ.

@ ogajim

Dude, You seem like an over medicated bozo if you have to ask which law Jesus Christ ( our High Priest) fulfilled and I reserve the right not to get embedded in this pre K stuff. Good luck.

There was a reason I asked you which law. There are several laws. There is the law of ceremonies, and rites. Then there is God's moral law that guides all men to righteousness.

Let me repeat the question. Which law did He fulfill?

Bobbyaf:

Good try but your obvious lies will get you nowhere. Besides, if you were a true Christian you'd never refer to persons as idiots and fools, even if you disagree with them. I notice you and Chukwudi have that disposition, which proves to me that you do not reflect the love of Christ.

hahaha. . .see this clown tryin to be model citizen. . .

Bobbyaf:



I bid you ignore the fools, for fools they are, with very little to contribute to life, and proceed to bless those who are willing to learn.

fukn hypocrite. . .Mr. Christian. DO the world a favour and go walk off a cliff like the lemming that u are, dodoyo!!

@ Postakolor

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 05:23:29 AM


I bid you ignore the fools, for fools they are, with very little to contribute to life, and proceed to bless those who are willing to learn.

"The fool hath saith in his heart there is no God" according to David, is a statement that applies to the persons I was addressing in another thread that made it clear they were Atheists.

fukn hypocrite. . .Mr. Christian. DO the world a favour and go walk off a cliff like the lemming that u are, dodoyo!!

Just make sure what you wish for another person don't happen to you first. So, before you attempt to correct me as to who I address as being fools, and who are deserving of the title,  , make sure you grasp the context in which a statement is made. At no time have I ever addressed a Christian as a fool.

At the rate at which you are going I am not too sure if you actually believe there is a God, so you're next in line for such an appelation, 

How smart can one get! 

Bobbyaf:

@ Postakolor

"The fool hath saith in his heart there is no God" according to David, is a statement that applies to the persons I was addressing in another thread that made it clear they were Atheists.

hahaha. . .U really are a Lemming. Mr follow follow

IMO a Christian going around playing judge, acting like the final authority of all things Christian, and insulting people that do not share his beliefs is a clown. Comic relief. . .that is what u are. Nobody with half a brain takes ur clownin ass seriously. . .Mr "Im in charge of this gathering" Are u 4 real? Are u really this lame?

Bobbyaf:

Just make sure what you wish for another person don't happen to you first. So, before you attempt to correct me as to who I address as being fools, and who are deserving of the title,  , make sure you grasp the context in which a statement is made. At no time have I ever addressed a Christian as a fool.

haha. . .

So only fellow Christians deserve respect. please quote Jesus on that, clown. U have zero credibility. U dig? With every post u make u show that u are not guided by any principles. U're just a hyperactive dummy seeking attention. "At no time have i ever addressed a Christian as a fool" . . .what was goin thru ur head when u posted that. . . fukn Bigot.

@ Postakolor

hahaha. . .U really are a Lemming. Mr follow follow

Little fellow don't waste my time, If you have something to contribute of substance, which I doubt you have, then by all means continue,

IMO a Christian going around playing judge, acting like the final authority of all things Christian, and insulting people that do not share his beliefs is a clown.

If simply repeating what the bible says of who constitutes a fool is making me a judge of character of atheists, then I am proud to be called a judge,

Comic relief. . .that is what u are. Nobody with half a brain takes ur clownin ass seriously.

That is why you shouldn't take me that seriously,

. .Mr "Im in charge of this gathering" Are u 4 real? Are u really this lame?

You paraphrased my quote to make it mean something totally different. Good try! You should have asked what I meant by that statement first before showing up your ignorance.

So only fellow Christians deserve respect.

You're the one saying that, not me. Besides, referring to Atheists as fools is quite justifiable. The bible backs me 100%.

please quote Jesus on that, clown. U have zero credibility. U dig?

I certainly don't dig your ignorance so far displayed. My advice to you is to get an education before addressing me. Dig?

With every post u make u show that u are not guided by any principles. U're just a hyperactive dummy seeking attention. "At no time have i ever addressed a Christian as a fool" . . .what was goin thru ur head when u posted that. . . fukn Bigot.

Go try and figure out what you want in life and come back and start a thread on your success,

Bye!

I paraphrased u?  haha. . keep lying. . .  here is ur entire post.

@ OLAADEGBU

The problem with persons who do not know Christ as Lord and Savior, is that they are the least aware of the power of the bible and the God of the bible to change lives from a vile state to that of a virtuous state.

These people whose duty it is to express in an indirect, and subconscioius manner their own wretchedness, and wayward lifestyle, are bound to do what they do best, and that is to resist the Spirit's call to surrender. They pretend to not care, but deep down they do. God knows it and they know it.

To each man is granted a probationary time period to make things right with God. Every man has a choice to either believe or not believe. Deep down they know what is happening, but are afraid to be accountable to an Almighty God who will soon judge them. Their day is short for soon He that will come, will come and will not tarry.

I bid you ignore the fools, for fools they are, with very little to contribute to life, and proceed to bless those who are willing to learn.

how the hell did i paraphrase u? I didn't change the meaning of what u said, i didn't reword it. I copied a whole sentence, that was in a parapragh on it's own.  U just keep exposin urself for the fraud that u are. Keep going . .

here is another quote from u, where u defend Jesus calling someone a fool. . .

I honestly believe you have taken a lot of things out of context without fully coming to grips with the truth. Your debating tactics is similar to spammers. You flood the threads with conclusions based on false premises, and have not done an intelligent research on the very things you're pointing out.

The reason why Jesus alluded to people calling people fools and being in danger of hell fire is based on an OT text that says, "the fool hath said in his heart there is no God" In other words to call a man a fool is tantamount to saying that such a person is an atheist, or one who has rejected God. Because Jesus bears God's authority, and who Himself is God's Son, only He knows who indeed a fool is, and under the circumstances when He made such a pronouncement, He was correct.

Anyone who calls another person a fool is putting himself, or herself in God's position. That was the premise on which He spoke.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=256653.msg3676824#msg3676824

either u are God, or Jesus, or u put urself in God's position. . or u are goin to make another jagba jantis theological argument to defend urself. 

This "inspired, flawless man, defending the purity of Christianity" crap u are pullin is ridiculous. Like I said, the more u post, the more u show that u are not guided by any principles. U, my friend, are a hyperactive dummy seeking attention.

I don't see why Lady and others should be justifying their idolatrous practices with what happened under the Mosaic law. If the ark of covenant was made at the time of Moses and you use that as the basis of what you do, it implies that what you practice is not CHRISTianity but Judaism. Besides, if you could make reference to what happens then and tell us it's still applicable today, what happens to all the religious rituals, ceremonies and punishments that were given under the Mosaic law? Why don't you keep to them?

But if you claim to be CHRISTians (followers of Christ), then your teachings and practices clearly negate that. On all the occasions that Christ prayed/taught his disciples to pray, did he use any images? On all the occasions that the apostles prayed after the ascension of Christ, did they use any images? Or better still, did they worship God with the aid of any sculptored or graven images? Where did you get your ideas from? How can you claim to be Christians if you cannot follow Christ's teachings and principles? Hebrews 12:2 says "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" Why do you have to look unto Moses or the Pope for that matter? Please, let's know where you stand. If you're CHRISTians, then follow Christ!


And here's where the Bible denounced your idolatrous tradition:

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections. . ." (Romans 1:22-26)

Man is corruptible. Only God is incorruptible and deserves your absolute worship! Desist from idolatry!

bibliolatry is a form of idolatory. "Worshippin" the bible. . .which has been equated with the word of God, even though it is man made.  Jesus, the focus of the Christian faith had nothing to do with the authorship of the New Testament. The Gospels are theologically interpreted narratives that were each created for a specific purpose. Quoting the Bible the way most Christians do, as the final authority on all matters, is  the most dangerous form of idolatory because what that does is make the hand-work of men become God's "voice".  .

Jesus, in his lifetime challenged every authority that claimed to come from God. . . He was not satisfied with the status quo. Claiming something is from God is not enough. . .

Christianity started in memory of Jesus. . . it isn't of Jesus, but the creation of men (not all of them were honest or sincere) just like the Bible. We have to really apply our heads if we want to understand it. The Church, for the most part, has done little to teach Christians what the stories in Bible really mean/represent.





Can someone please tell me how to contact a mod. . . .my account got closed (for alleged spamming) and it's been over 24 hrs. This is Krayola

bibliolatory is a form of idolatory. "Worshippin" the bible. . .which has been equated with the word of God, even though it is man made. Jesus, the focus of the Christian faith had nothing to do with the authorship of the New Testament. The Gospels are theologically interpreted narratives that were each created for a specific purpose. Quoting the Bible the way most Christians do, as the final authority on all matters, is the most dangerous form of idolatory because what that does is make the hand-work of men become God's "voice". .

Jesus, in his lifetime challenged every authority that claimed to come from God. . . He was not satisfied with the status quo. Claiming something is from God is not enough. . .

Christianity started in memory of Jesus. . . it isn't of Jesus, but the creation of men (not all of them were honest or sincere). . .like the Bible. . .we have to really apply our heads if we want to understand it. The Church, for the most part, has done little to teach Christians what the stories in Bible really mean/represent.

BALDERDASH!

Can someone please tell me how to contact a mod. . . .my account got closed (for alleged spamming) and it's been over 24 hrs

.

Sorry, there's no reason for your account to be reopened because you're still committing the same offence that got you banned. You're still posting spammy and meaningless stuffs

haha. . .

if u say so.

Karl Barth writes " theology, means rational trouble over the mystery. . .If we are unwilling to take the trouble, neither shall we know what we mean when we say that we are dealing with the mystery of God".

An appeal to the Bible or the Holy Spirit should not be considered an alternative to serious reflection. Christian faith must not be reduced to a euphoric feeling or to a religious cliche. Christ is indeed the answer, but what was the question? And who is Christ? Christian faith is no authoritarian, uncritical, unreflective set of answers to the human predicament. Genuine faith does not suppress any questions; it may give people a lot more questions than they had before. Thus the anxiety of simple piety is misplaced. The sort of thinking that Christian faith sets in motion does not replace trust in God but acts as a critical ingredient that helps to distinguish faith from mere illusion or pious evasion.

The suspicion of the "mystifying" function of religion is by no means original to Marxism. We find it in the judgments of the Old Testament prophets and in the teachings of Jesus. They knew very well the extent to which religion and its official custodians can stand in opposition to God's intention for human life, . .


The basic question that a doctrine of scripture must address is, what do we mean by the authority of scripture? Does it's authority reside in a coercive power capable of enforcing compliance or in its inviting power that calls for our free and glad trust in God? is the authority of scripture an arbitrary datum simply to be accepted by a sacrifice of the intellect, or is it inseparable from the scriptural proclamation of the liberating grace of God in Jesus Christ? Put differently, the question is whether the church has forgotten that its own scriptural tradition contains a powerful critique of arbitrary authority and a distinctive message of freedom.

Within the Biblical witness, there is relentless criticism of every authority that identifies itself with the ultimate authority of God. Jesus refused to ascribe ultimacy either to religious doctrines and traditions (Matt 5:21 ff.; Mark 11:28ff) or to the claims of the state (Mark 12:13-17). Paul distinguished between the written codes that kill and the spirit that gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). This remarkable biblical heritage is one of freedom from the idolatory, including bibliolatry.

In the biblicist view, the Bible is authoratative by virtue of its supernatural origin and the direct identity of its words with the word of God. this view grew out of the Church's efforts to defend itself against modernity. Anxious to protect the insights of the reformation, theologians became increasingly defensive and strident about the supernatural character of the scripture. They insisted that every book and every chapter, every verse, every word was directly inspired from God. Speaking of the scripture as inspired is, of course, an ancient doctrine of the Christian, and most other religious traditions. . . . .This way of thinking about scripture leads to 2 problematic conclusions.

First, in the biblicist view inspiration involves inspiredness. It refers to an inherent property of scripture resulting from its supernatural origin. It refers to something set before us as a given, a sheer datum. The task of a doctrine of inspiration is thus reduced to the defense of certain theories of the superntural origin of the Bible.

Second, in the biblicist view inspiration requires infallibility. Since God in considered the author of scripture in a straight forward literal sense, it is said to be without error. Some protestant apologists have pushed this assertion to extreme limits. Scripture is without error not only in what it teaches about God and human salvation but also in all matters of history and science. the defense of Christian faith thus becomes the defense of the doctrine of infallibility. To the Roman catholic dogma of the infallibility of the pope (1870), directed against the rising tide of modernity, there corresponds the protestant doctrine of the infallibility of the Bible. the church that wants an absolute guarantee of its faith and proclamation finds it in the parallel doctrines of biblical and papal infallibility. But a church with an infallible teaching office and an infallible Bible no longer allows scripture to work as liberating and life-giving Word in its own way. Insistence on the infallibility of the Bible obscures the true basis of Christian confidence.

So, for christians with this view, the Bible is taken as authority not because of what it tells us centrally about God and humanity, but simply because its words are identified without qualification with God's words. one result of this identification is that biblical texts tend to be levelled in importance. When this happens, the account of the command of God to utterly destroy the Amalekites, their men, women, children , infants, and animals (1 Sam 15:3), or the apostolic instructions that slaves should obey their masters (Eph. 6:5) and women should be silent in Church (1 tim 2:12) are vested with the same authority as proclamation that God was in christ (2 Cor. 5:19) and that in him is new and inclusive community (Gal. 3:28). in this way biblicism turns true life giving authority of scripture into a deadening authoritarianism.
excerpts from . . Daniel L. Migliore's Faith Seeking Understanding "An Introduction to Christian theology"

Keep spamming. . .you might successfully confuse convince someone someday