1) Suicide is a sin?
-----------------------------
says who?

2) The earth is 6000 years old?
-------------------------------------
provide scriptures please.


Christians too are guilty of spewing a whole lot of crap without scriptural evidence.
And want to force it on you.

did christians say that?

mtcheeeew

asalimpo:
1) Suicide is a sin?
-----------------------------
says who?

2) The earth is 6000 years old?
-------------------------------------
provide scriptures please.


Christians too are guilty of spewing a whole lot of crap without scriptural evidence.
And want to force it on you.

Suicide is a visa to hell fire.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV
As for the 6000 years of earth, i don't quite agree but mankind is 6000

oyeludef:

Suicide is a visa to hell fire.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV
As for the 6000 years of earth, i don't quite agree but mankind is 6000

The bible is clear on murder-taking another person's life.
The verse you quote is still vague. It hints more on defilement of the body rather than cessation of life.
Saying it is a case against suicide is shoe horning.
Suicide is not defilement of the body but taking of one's life.
If suicide is self-murder then of course the suicide is guilty.

Many suicides commit the act out of the weight of grief and helplessness.
The weight of emotional or psychological torment makes them end it all.
And in a way, it makes sense. Living life in torture and pain does'nt make sense.
Living a half-life, you'll never recover from can drive one to end it all. And that one ending it all
can be a christian.

So, the motivation for suicide is not usually self aggrandizement but often as a means to escape
great torment. Two, many people commit suicide because others dont care. Lack of love.
They're two different things.
The verdict isnt out and there's no bible verse conclusively denouncing it.

The portions of the Bible makes it clear that our body doesn't belong to us but God and so d same way we don't have d right to take d life of another, we also do not have the right to take our own life. If the Holy Spirit will destroy a soul for defiling his body such as fornication? , what would he do for killing the body?

Number 1: Suicide
Do not be a fool–why die before your time? Ecclesiastes 7:17b

For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 6:20

Number 2: Earth
No one said the earth is 6,000 years old na.
I personally believe that the generation of the people that built the tower of babel took a lot of years if not thousands of years to reach that height of technological advancement. It's not explicitly written but between the lines, some infos takes shape in an inquisitive mind.

asalimpo:
1) Suicide is a sin?
-----------------------------
says who?

Suicide is truly a sin because our life is not ours to take. We didn't give ourselves life, and it is not up to us to take it.

See this;

Romans 14v7 -For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

We don't live for ourselves neither should we die for ourselves. We live by Christ and should die by Him. He sent us into this world and He should be the one to decide to call us home.

To make it our prerogative to kill ourselves is not only an act in ungodliness, it is also a rebellious affront to the authority of the one who gave you life and sent you into this world for a purpose.

Even servants of God in scripture who because of trials of life got frustrated and tired of living, didn't take it into their hands to kill themselves, they asked God to take their lives.

Elijah:

1Kings 19v4 -4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; NOW, O LORD, TAKE AWAY MY LIFE; for I am not better than my fathers.

Jonah

Jonah 4v3 -3 Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

Why didn't these servants of God just commit suicide if they were tired of living? It wasn't as if they couldn't do it, it was because they knew that would be a rebellious affront to the authority of the one who gave them their lives and their purpose on earth, and who alone should reserve the right of when they check out.

And for both of them God did not even answer their prayers but kept them living on for the work He still had for them.

Suicide is an ungodly act and a rebellious affront to the authority of the owner of your life. It is a sin.

asalimpo:
2) The earth is 6000 years old?
-------------------------------------
provide scriptures please.

Christians too are guilty of spewing a whole lot of crap without scriptural evidence.
And want to force it on you.

To anyone who holds the bible in authority as the Word of God, the earth is truly about 6000years old.

Exodus 20v11 - For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Man was made on the sixth day of the creation of the heavens and the earth, meaning the earth is only five days older than man.

And if you countdown the genealogy and history of mankind, right from Adam and Eve, down to the time of Moses (about 2500years after), down to the time of Jesus (about 1500years after), and down to the our present time (about 2000years after); you would see that the earth is truly about 6000years (about 5960 give or take).

The earth is only five days older than man, and the history of mankind is only about 6000years. So the earth is the same age.

Also, the 1000years millenial reign of Christ that we are expecting is going to be the sabbath of the earth or the seventh day of the earth's creation.

So if we are truly in the endtimes and the coming of Christ is close, which it is, it means the earth is in the final hours of its sixth day (its six thousandth year)

Shalom

ayoku777:


Suicide is truly a sin because our life is not ours to take. We didn't give ourselves life, and it is not up to us to take it.

See this;

Romans 14v7 -For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

We don't live for ourselves neither should we die for ourselves. We live by Christ and should die by Him. He sent us into this world and He should be the one to decide to call us home.

To make it our prerogative to kill ourselves is not only an act in ungodliness, it is also a rebellious affront to the authority of the one who gave you life and sent you into this world for a purpose.

Even servants of God in scripture who because of trials of life got frustrated and tired of living, didn't take it into their hands to kill themselves, they asked God to take their lives.

Elijah:

1Kings 19v4 -4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; NOW, O LORD, TAKE AWAY MY LIFE; for I am not better than my fathers.

Jonah

Jonah 4v3 -3 Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

Why didn't these servants of God just commit suicide if they were tired of living? It wasn't as if they couldn't do it, it was because they knew that would be a rebellious affront to the authority of the one who gave them their lives and their purpose on earth, and who alone should reserve the right of when they check out.

And for both of them God did not even answer their prayers but kept them living on for the work He still had for them.

Suicide is an ungodly act and a rebellious affront to the authority of the owner of your life. It is a sin.



To anyone who holds the bible in authority as the Word of God, the earth is truly about 6000years old.

Exodus 20v11 - For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Man was made on the sixth day of the creation of the heavens and the earth, meaning the earth is only five days older than man.

And if you countdown the genealogy and history of mankind, right from Adam and Eve, down to the time of Moses (about 2500years after), down to the time of Jesus (about 1500years after), and down to the our present time (about 2000years after); you would see that the earth is truly about 6000years (about 5960 give or take).

The earth is only five days older than man, and the history of mankind is only about 6000years. So the earth is the same age.

Also, the 1000years millenial reign of Christ that we are expecting is going to be the sabbath of the earth or the seventh day of the earth's creation.

So if we are truly in the endtimes and the coming of Christ is close, which it is, it means the earth is in the final hours of its sixth day (its six thousandth year)

Shalom

Do you have any biblical backing enumerating and computing the 6000 year old earth?
And the bible doesnt clearly flat out say, God created the heaven and earth in the period when he created man. He couldve created heaven and earth, with no man in it. Then recreated the heaven and earth later
to accomodate man.
If so, then the earth would be older than 6000 years.

if Jesus was coming in the 6000th year as you conjecture, then His coming is known,
it is no more suprise. God and Jesus are predictable. They wait for 6 days,years,millenia,
then show up in the 7th year and do their thing.
That goes against the biblical injunction to be ready. And that Jesus knows not the hour or time when He will come.
Again, this kind of conjecture is typical christian tradition. Note, how the millenial reign is tied to rest.
Besides, to make it look plausible, the 6000 year old earth assumption must be made.

I posit that the earth is older than 6000 years.

If a christian soldier is being dragged to a torture chamber in war,
where his fingers will be pulled out, his eyes gouged out, and his toes beaten to pulp with a hammer,
would he be commiting a sin by biting a cyanide pill?

Many people commit suicide out of hopelessness. A a sight of no future.
Yes, they could live but it would be a half life. They'd be living in hell.
In pain and turtore for the rest of their lives. How is such a life, an unlivable toxic existence benefitting anyone? It is neither giving God glory or even having any sign of respite for the live-r.
Many others are simply waiting to die. They've resigned from life.
Just waiting their time. How are they different from those who pull the plug on themselves?

Here are some reasons why people might take their life.
In retirement, all your earnings and what you've worked for have been wiped out.
Maybe a faulty investment or a scam.
You're old. You cant afford to pay for bills, health care, etc.
Who'll give you a job?
You know "God will make a way" is empty talk.
Yes, God can rain mannah from heaven, but even your church folks know that its over for you.
Your friends , children relations withdraw , leaving you to stew.
The grief alone and pain and hopelessness will drive one to contemplate suicide.

You've lost limbs during an accident.
You're fiance /fiancee leaves you cuz you look like a monster.
You are dependent on people for your sustenance-going to the bathroom, toilet,bathing etc
You will be a beggar all your life. Your employers have let you go.
You see your family treat you like dirt, after a while.
What stops such a one from ending it all- is that thing he is living really life?
Tell, me God will make his limbs grow back and his eyes pop out and he'll be back to living whole again.
Reassure him with that.


Your bf/gf that you sacrificed so much to help . believing that you'll live together as spouse one day.
On making it, he /she abandons you for some one else.
You see their photo on facebook etc.
The pain is stabbing.
Ok- you can preach on this, there's hope . You'll find another. But the pain is real and hurting.
some will yield to it.

You worked in a prestigious company. Your post was high and lofty.
One day you became framed for a thing you didnt do.
You lost your job. You're covered in shame. The neighbuors boo you.
You have to drive a cab around the city , doing menial work.
The pain - the shame - oooh. Ok this one well, can be recovered from.

They're some problems people can't recover from. The pain and despair is too ernomous.

@ayoku777
God created man without a body d sixth day(gen1:27) but God formed d body of Adam after He rested (gen2:7).
After God formed d body of man, He breathed the breath of life (the spirit of man) into his nostrils and he became a living soul and I also believe that there was a lot of years between gen1:1 and gen1:2but i dont want to derail dis thread else I will av entered into a whole new topic on dat

oyeludef:
God created man without a body d sixth day(gen1:27) but God formed d body of Adam after He rested (gen2:7).
After God formed d body of man, He breathed the breath of life (the spirit of man) into his nostrils and he became a living soul and I also believe that there was a lot of years between gen1:1 and gen1:2but i dont want to derail dis thread else I will av entered into a whole new topic on dat

Yes you're right, God created the male and female human spirit on day six, and then made the (male) human body after that, then later God made the woman.

Male and female human spirit (Ish and Ishah) were made the same day but man and woman (adam and adamah) were not made same day.

But you're wrong, there was no lots of years or even days between Gen 1v1 and Gen 1v2

Gen 1v1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The heavens and earth were made within the same six days that God made everything before He rested.

Exodus 20v11 - FOR IN SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Can you see this?

God did not make the heavens and the earth, then waited years or many days before He made everything in the earth. No!

God made the heavens and the earth and then everything in it together in just six days.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Yes you're right, God created the male and female human spirit on day six, and then made the (male) human body after that, then later God made the woman.

Male and female human spirit (Ish and Ishah) were made the same day but man and woman (adam and adamah) were not made same day.

But you're wrong, there was no lots of years or even days between Gen 1v1 and Gen 1v2

Gen 1v1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The heavens and earth were made within the same six days that God made everything before He rested.

Exodus 20v11 - FOR IN SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Can you see this?

God did not make the heavens and the earth, then waited years or many days before He made everything in the earth. No!

God made the heavens and the earth and then everything in it together in just six days.

Shalom

Alright so wat period did d fall of lucifer occur ad we know he was already fallen wen he tempted man in d garden? Wen was hell created cos we know it was created for the devil and his angels? If all this happened within a short time frame as y supposed, wen did all d drama in d heavenlies occur and d devil fall with those angels?

asalimpo:

Do you have any biblical backing enumerating and computing the 6000 year old earth?
And the bible doesnt clearly flat out say, God created the heaven and earth in the period when he created man. He couldve created heaven and earth, with no man in it. Then recreated the heaven and earth later
to accomodate man.
If so, then the earth would be older than 6000 years.

if Jesus was coming in the 6000th year as you conjecture, then His coming is known,
it is no more suprise. God and Jesus are predictable. They wait for 6 days,years,millenia,
then show up in the 7th year and do their thing.
That goes against the biblical injunction to be ready. And that Jesus knows not the hour or time when He will come.
Again, this kind of conjecture is typical christian tradition. Note, how the millenial reign is tied to rest.
Besides, to make it look plausible, the 6000 year old earth assumption must be made.

I posit that the earth is older than 6000 years.

If a christian soldier is being dragged to a torture chamber in war,
where his fingers will be pulled out, his eyes gouged out, and his toes beaten to pulp with a hammer,
would he be commiting a sin by biting a cyanide pill?

Many people commit suicide out of hopelessness. A a sight of no future.
Yes, they could live but it would be a half life. They'd be living in hell.
In pain and turtore for the rest of their lives. How is such a life, an unlivable toxic existence benefitting anyone? It is neither giving God glory or even having any sign of respite for the live-r.
Many others are simply waiting to die. They've resigned from life.
Just waiting their time. How are they different from those who pull the plug on themselves?

Here are some reasons why people might take their life.
In retirement, all your earnings and what you've worked for have been wiped out.
Maybe a faulty investment or a scam.
You're old. You cant afford to pay for bills, health care, etc.
Who'll give you a job?
You know "God will make a way" is empty talk.
Yes, God can rain mannah from heaven, but even your church folks know that its over for you.
Your friends , children relations withdraw , leaving you to stew.
The grief alone and pain and hopelessness will drive one to contemplate suicide.

You've lost limbs during an accident.
You're fiance /fiancee leaves you cuz you look like a monster.
You are dependent on people for your sustenance-going to the bathroom, toilet,bathing etc
You will be a beggar all your life. Your employers have let you go.
You see your family treat you like dirt, after a while.
What stops such a one from ending it all- is that thing he is living really life?
Tell, me God will make his limbs grow back and his eyes pop out and he'll be back to living whole again.
Reassure him with that.


Your bf/gf that you sacrificed so much to help . believing that you'll live together as spouse one day.
On making it, he /she abandons you for some one else.
You see their photo on facebook etc.
The pain is stabbing.
Ok- you can preach on this, there's hope . You'll find another. But the pain is real and hurting.
some will yield to it.

You worked in a prestigious company. Your post was high and lofty.
One day you became framed for a thing you didnt do.
You lost your job. You're covered in shame. The neighbuors boo you.
You have to drive a cab around the city , doing menial work.
The pain - the shame - oooh. Ok this one well, can be recovered from.

They're some problems people can't recover from. The pain and despair is too ernomous.

Its obvious from the way you're talking that you don't believe in the word of God and have faith in His promises

Because you're trying so hard to rationalize suicide and justify giving up on life or that some situations can truly be hopeless and suicide is the only way out.

So what do you make of all these promises of God?

1Cor 10v13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 2v18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Isaiah 43v2 -2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

I can go on and on and show you scriptures that show that God can deliver us from challenges or even give us grace to go through them in His power, such that suicide should never be an option.

The believers under the early church suffered more than those scenarios you painted there. Some were fed to lions, John was thrown inside boiling oil. Mark was tied to a horse and dragged to his death. Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down.

And grace was sufficient for all of them. The power of Christ was made perfect in their weaknesses. They all overcame by loving not their lives even unto the death. And the same grace is available to us to day to endure to the end.

But its clear from what you said that you don't believe all that. You yourself said "God will make a way is empty talk".

So when God said

Isaiah 43v13 -I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

He was making empty talk? Hmmm.

And as for the 6000 years issue. Look up evidence of a young earth online, or bible history and genealogy, everything is within the 6000 year range. I can't do you homework for you.

And you're right, we don't know the day or the hour Jesus will come. He himself said the days will be shortened for the elect's sake, meaning God has the prerogative to shorten the days of when He will climax this age. But that doesn't mean He will add thousands of years to His timetable.

God is not arbitrary. There is no scriptural proof that the earth is millions or hundreds of thousands years old. According to scripture, the earth is only five days older than man, and mankinds genealogy in scripture dates back just abut 6000years.

Shalom

oyeludef:

Alright so wat period did d fall of lucifer occur ad we know he was already fallen wen he tempted man in d garden? Wen was hell created cos we know it was created for the devil and his angels? If all this happened within a short time frame as y supposed, wen did all d drama in d heavenlies occur and d devil fall with those angels?

You're confusing "the heavens" to mean paradise (the spiritual abode of God). The heavens refer to space (the physical universe) or the abode of the stars and the galaxies.

That is different from paradise. We have no idea how long heaven (paradise), the spiritual realm of God and all the angels were in existence before God created the heavens (universe) and the earth.

So paradise heaven is different from the heavens (universe) and the earth that was made in six days. Before the heavens and the earth were made, Lucifer had already fallen and he was no longer the covering cherub.

Paradise is different from the universe.

Shalom

ayoku777:


You're confusing "the heavens" to mean paradise (the spiritual abode of God). The heavens refer to space (the physical universe) or the abode stars and the galaxies.

That is different from paradise. We have no idea how long heaven (paradise), the spiritual realm and all the angels were in existence before God created the heavens (universe) and the earth.

So paradise heaven is different from the heavens and the earth that was made in six days. Before the heavens and the earth were made, Lucifer had already fallen and he was no longer the covering cherub.

Paradise is different from the universe.

Shalom

in d book of ezekiel, the Bible says
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:13-14 KJV
If satan was in eden b4 he fell, where is eden located? Heaven or earth

oyeludef:
in d book of ezekiel, the Bible says
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:13-14 KJV
If satan was in eden b4 he fell, where is eden located? Heaven or earth

Look at this verse

Ezekiel 31v18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.

This is how the NIV puts it;

Ezekiel 31v18 -"Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. "'This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD."

This is a parable God put out against Pharaoh the king of Egypt (who is a type of the adversary -Satan), that he would be cast to earth below with the trees of Eden.

So its obvious Eden was either brought down to earth from above, meaning it was in heaven before. Or that the garden of Eden on earth was transplanted out of the trees of the Eden in Heaven.

Which can only mean that there was (or there still is) a heavenly Eden. Which I believe was the Eden Lucifer had walked in when He was still the anointed cherub that covereth.

When Lucifer walked in the earthly Eden in Genesis three, He was already fallen then, he had become Satan.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Look at this verse

Ezekiel 31v18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.

This is how the NIV puts it;

Ezekiel 31v18 -"Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. "'This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD."

This is a parable God put out against Pharaoh the king of Egypt (who is a type of the adversary -Satan), that he would be cast to earth below with the trees of Eden.

So its obvious Eden was either brought down to earth from above, meaning it was in heaven before. Or that the garden of Eden on earth was transplanted out of the trees of the Eden in Heaven.

Which can only mean that there was (or there still is) a heavenly Eden. Which I believe was the Eden Lucifer had walked in when He was still the anointed cherub that covereth.

When Lucifer walked in the earthly Eden in Genesis three, He was already fallen then, he had become Satan.

Shalom

so you agree that d devil and hus angels fell b4 adam? So where did dey fall to if there was no earth den? If dey were cast out of heaven, where did dey fall to?

oyeludef:
so you agree that d devil and hus angels fell b4 adam? So where did dey fall to if there was no earth den? If dey were cast out of heaven, where did dey fall to?

They fell into heavenly places. Realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven)

Its clear from scripture that there are different layers of heaven. Paul spoke of being caught up to the "third heaven" which actually is paradise.

2Cor 12v2 -I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN.

4  How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the third heaven. Now, if there is a third heaven (paradise), it means there would therefore be a first and second heaven. That is, levels of heaven, that are not paradise and at the same time not earth or the universe.

So if Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of paradise, they were cast down to these heavenly places. It doesn't mean that they could only have been cast down to earth.

See this;

Ephesians 6v12 -For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS.

So there are other heavenly places or realms outside the third heaven (paradise) and outside the heavens (universe) and the earth that houses principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness.

That is where they were cast to -heavenly places, that is, realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven).

Some christians say the first heaven is the universe (the abode of the stars and the galaxies). The second heaven is the heavenly places (the abode of principalities and powers). And the third heaven is paradise; (the abode of God).

While some argue that the three heavens are even completely separate from the heavens of the universe. I somewhat agree with this.

But my point is, earth is not the only place that Satan and his angels could have fallen to when they were cast out of paradise. There are other spiritual heavenly realms and places outside paradise that pre-existed the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Shalom

ayoku777:


They fell into heavenly places. Realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven)

Its clear from scripture that there are different layers of heaven. Paul spoke of being caught up to the "third heaven" which actually is paradise.

2Cor 12v2 -I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN.

4  How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the third heaven. Now, if there is a third heaven (paradise), it means there would therefore be a first and second heaven. That is, levels of heaven, that are not paradise and at the same time not earth or the universe.

So if Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of paradise, they were cast down to these heavenly places. It doesn't mean that they could only have been cast down to earth.

See this;

Ephesians 6v12 -For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS.

So there are other heavenly places or realms outside the third heaven (paradise) and outside the heavens (universe) and the earth that houses principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness.

That is where they were cast to -heavenly places, that is, realms of heaven out of paradise (the third heaven).

Some christians say the first heaven is the universe (the abode of the stars and the galaxies). The second heaven is the heavenly places (the abode of principalities and powers). And the third heaven is paradise; (the abode of God).

While some argue that the three heavens are even completely separate from the heavens of the universe. I somewhat agree with this.

But my point is, earth is not the only place that Satan and his angels could have fallen to when they were cast out of paradise. There are other spiritual heavenly realms and places outside paradise that pre-existed the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Shalom

I know you will contradict yourself. But u said d heavens(not d abode of God) were created together with the earth according to gen1:1. So if Satan was cast into one of the two remaining heavens, the d earth too must av been in existence cos God created d heavens and d earth.
The third Heaven is actually the abode of God

oyeludef:

I know you will contradict yourself. But u said d heavens(not d abode of God) were created together with the earth according to gen1:1. So if Satan was cast into one of the two remaining heavens, the d earth too must av been in existence cos God created d heavens and d earth.
The third Heaven is actually the abode of God

You love argument.

This is it.

We have paradise, also called the third heaven, or the heaven of heavens. This is the abode of God.

We have the heavenly places. These are spiritual realms outside paradise but also spiritual. They are the abode of the principalities and powers.

Then we have the heavens. This is space or the universe. This is the abode of the stars and galaxies. It was created together along with the earth. And filled up in six days

Paradise and the heavenly places, were created aeons before the universe and the earth. The bible gave us no information about how long ago they were created before the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Paradise and the heavenly spiritual realms pre-existed Genesis 1v1, when God created the universe and the earth. The account of Genesis 1v1 is the account of the creation of the universe and the earth and everything in them -not paradise and the spiritual heavenly places.

You want to lump together paradise, heavenly places and universe to mean the same heaven that were created same time. That is wrong.

Paradise and the spiritual heavenly realm pre-existed Genesis 1v1. The heavens that was created in Genesis 1v1 along with the earth is space and the universe. That was the heavens God filled with stars on day three.

I don't think I can simplify it more than this. Unless you just love to disagree.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Its obvious from the way you're talking that you don't believe in the word of God and have faith in His promises

Because you're trying so hard to rationalize suicide and justify giving up on life or that some situations can truly be hopeless and suicide is the only way out.

So what do you make of all these promises of God?

1Cor 10v13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 2v18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Isaiah 43v2 -2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

I can go on and on and show you scriptures that show that God can deliver us from challenges or even give us grace to go through them in His power, such that suicide should never be an option.

The believers under the early church suffered more than those scenarios you painted there. Some were fed to lions, John was thrown inside boiling oil. Mark was tied to a horse and dragged to his death. Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down.

And grace was sufficient for all of them. The power of Christ was made perfect in their weaknesses. They all overcame by loving not their lives even unto the death. And the same grace is available to us to day to endure to the end.

But its clear from what you said that you don't believe all that. You yourself said "God will make a way is empty talk".

So when God said

Isaiah 43v13 -I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

He was making empty talk? Hmmm.

And as for the 6000 years issue. Look up evidence of a young earth online, or bible history and genealogy, everything is within the 6000 year range. I can't do you homework for you.

And you're right, we don't know the day or the hour Jesus will come. He himself said the days will be shortened for the elect's sake, meaning God has the prerogative to shorten the days of when He will climax this age. But that doesn't mean He will add thousands of years to His timetable.

God is not arbitrary. There is no scriptural proof that the earth is millions or hundreds of thousands years old. According to scripture, the earth is only five days older than man, and mankinds genealogy in scripture dates back just abut 6000 years.

Shalom

I'm not trying hard to rationalize, I'm rationalizing.
What i said has nothing to do with how i view the word of God or my faith in it.
I gave clear examples under which people would most likely take their lives.

People are at different levels of faith.
That's why the bible says, believers should help carry each others burden.
Do you know what that could do some one hurting?
It says don't say to the nak.ed and hungry , go and be filled or be clothed, provide
clothing. That is love.
To some people, quoting bible verses when they're wreathing with grief will not do them any good.
The verses you quoted says 'temptation' , temptation and trials are vastly different.
You can actually be pushed to your limit in trial.
I gave some examples where, it was clearly hopeless to keep on living and some ppl could be
tempted to end it all.
if you see that as a justification, too bad. But this is life, this things happen.

Of course some people kill themselves over flimsier things but for others, the weight of grief and pain
is simply too much to bear. And nobody may understand. Worst still, nobody cares.
Dyu think most people will sit around and rationalize or read the word? No.
They'll end it all. They end it to escape the pain.

Actually, that shows there's a lack of faith in the Word but people do so because they see no way out.
Most problems christians face have a way. Science makes a way. or connections make a way.
But what of those problems where science and connection make no way?
e.g
A woman who is unmarried an 35 may not kill her self but it's looking hopeless.
She may still latch on to hope. What of when she hits 50!
Dyu think she'll listen to the word? - most likely not. She'd have resigned from that dream.
She's not suicidal but she's sign out.

While her case is extreme, such cases abound.
People suffering sicknesses that leave them in intense pain.
They're dependent on drugs. They've sold everything to stay alive.
Like one case of a man in the papers, he had kidney failure, and needed N3M to help himself.
Yeah, in the beginning what do you think he was told? God, can make a way.
But he sold everything, to stay alive. He's literally a vegetable.
Is he really living? Some will pray to die. Others will take their lives.
Is God going to give him a new kidney? That would solve the problem.
But it's most likely not going to happen.
Those prayers they'll pray will slowly cease and peter away , the church people will stop coming
to the hospital. Only the wife,if she's a good woman, will stick.
I'm not making this up. This is how christians act. I know them.
Let a problem hit you - some will hang on- let it get intense, they'll disperse.
What about his life gives God glory? His situation isnt getting better.
And the future looks bleak. So what is he living for? What's even the point?


If you take these cases as justifications , you're reading me wrong.
The pain of life can be too much for some to bear and if they're not helped they may end it all.

For the 6000 year earth.
It is believed that Earth was created before man, and had to recreated for man.
In some quarters, it is said that the earth got destroyed during the war in heaven that got satan thrown out.
I read this in a book - Secrets of the Dark Kingdom .
It is a well known fact in the spirit world how satan was thrown out.
If this is so, then it makes sense, how the Spirit of God is seen hovering on the face of the earth.

Also, the word used in Genesis,is 'replenish' the earth. Implying that the earth was once filled with life.
Two, note the genesis account, starts with the Holy Spirit hovering over the earth.
God on creating the earth, wouldnt create a formless bleak orb first.
He would make it perfect. But the genesis account shows an already created earth that was, in a chaotic state. Hence, the recreation.

ayoku777:


You love argument.

This is it.

We have paradise, also called the third heaven, or the heaven of heavens. This is the abode of God.

We have the heavenly places. These are spiritual realms outside paradise but also spiritual. They are the abode of the principalities and powers.

Then we have the heavens. This is space or the universe. This is the abode of the stars and galaxies. It was created together along with the earth. And filled up in six days

Paradise and the heavenly places, were created aeons before the universe and the earth. The bible gave us no information about how long ago they were created before the heavens (universe) and the earth.

Paradise and the heavenly spiritual realms pre-existed Genesis 1v1, when God created the universe and the earth. The account of Genesis 1v1 is the account of the creation of the universe and the earth and everything in them -not paradise and the spiritual heavenly places.

You want to lump together paradise, heavenly places and universe to mean the same heaven that were created same time. That is wrong.

Paradise and the spiritual heavenly realm pre-existed Genesis 1v1. The heavens that was created in Genesis 1v1 along with the earth is space and the universe. That was the heavens God filled with stars on day three.

I don't think I can simplify it more than this. Unles you justa love to disagree.


Shalom

You talked about the 1st.2nf and 3rd heavens righ?
If it was only d third Heaven dat was created in gen1:1, how come d Bible said heavens(plural) don't forget d Bible said in d beginning. If truely 1st and secomd heavens existed before ven1:1, how come d Bible said in d beginning?

Op, why are you obsessed with Christians, leave them alone and face what you believe in. Suicide is not a sin, are you happy now? To confirm just try it out.....but don't say i told you to.

asalimpo:
1) Suicide is a sin?
-----------------------------
says who?

2) The earth is 6000 years old?
-------------------------------------
provide scriptures please.


Christians too are guilty of spewing a whole lot of crap without scriptural evidence.
And want to force it on you.

ayoku777 has already answer the suicide part of your question. Concerning the earth. The earth is 14billion years old or more, but human began to exist here on earth 6000 years ago.

oyeludef:

You talked about the 1st.2nf and 3rd heavens righ?
If it was only d third Heaven dat was created in gen1:1, how come d Bible said heavens(plural) don't forget d Bible said in d beginning. If truely 1st and secomd heavens existed before ven1:1, how come d Bible said in d beginning?

The hebrew is not plural, the hebrew says "Shamayin" which is heaven not heavens.

Exodus 20v11 - For in six days the Lord made HEAVEN (shamayin) and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:

So it was heaven and earth that God made in six days. That is the universe and the earth.

And when scripture uses the word "beginning", which beginning exactly? Is it the beginning of paradise and the spiritual realm, or the beginning of the universe and the earth, or the beginning of man or the beginning of the new creation?

All created things have a beginning but they don't have the same beginning relative to time. So the word "beginning" must be understood in the context of what is being talked about.

This verse should answer your question about that.

Job 38v4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Can you see these verses?

This was God Himself talking to Job. And it says when God laid the foundations of the earth, Angels sang together and shouted for joy.

If angels were there shouting for joy when God made the earth, it means angels and the spiritual realm were already in existence at the creation of the universe and the earth.

Proofing that the "In the beginning" of Genesis 1v1 was referring only to the universe and the earth, not paradise and the spiritual realm. Paradise, the spiritual heavenly realms and angels were already in existence before Genesis 1v1.

Please does this answer your question? Because I'm getting tired.

Shalom

Ayoku777 you will av to b patient with me o. Make u never tire according to strongs dictionary, shamayim means both heaven, heavens, and heaven d abpde of God

oyeludef:
You will av to b patient with me o. Make u never tire according to strongs dictionary, shamayim means both heaven, heavens, and heaven d abpde of God

That's because hebrew is an ambiguous language. The same word can mean different things.

The word "malak" can also mean angel or messenger. So when you see malak in scripture, you will have to see the context to determine if the malak is angel, or messenger. Haggai was called, the Lord's malak (Haggai 1v13); that "malak" cannot mean angel.

So if shamayin in Genesis 1v1 can mean universe or heavenly realms or paradise. Then you have to look at the verse to check which one it is referring to in that context.

That was why I gave you the verse that shows that angels were with God singing and shouting for joy when He laid the foundations of the earth and fastened it to corner-stones (Job 38v4-7).

If angels were with God at the creation of the earth, that should therefore tell you that by Genesis 1v1; paradise, the spiritual heavenly realms and angels were already in existence then. Proving that their own beginning was well before the beginning of Genesis 1v1.

So the shamayin created in Genesis 1v1 can only be the universe and the earth. The universe and the earth was the shamayin created in six days (Exodus 20v11). Because angels, paradise, and the heavenly realms where already there when God was laying the foundations of the earth.

That's how you use scripture to explain scripture.

Do you get it now?

Shalom

ayoku777:



To anyone who holds the bible in authority as the Word of God, the earth is truly about 6000years old.

Exodus 20v11 - For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Man was made on the sixth day of the creation of the heavens and the earth, meaning the earth is only five days older than man.

And if you countdown the genealogy and history of mankind, right from Adam and Eve, down to the time of Moses (about 2500years after), down to the time of Jesus (about 1500years after), and down to the our present time (about 2000years after); you would see that the earth is truly about 6000years (about 5960 give or take).

The earth is only five days older than man, and the history of mankind is only about 6000years. So the earth is the same age.

Also, the 1000years millenial reign of Christ that we are expecting is going to be the sabbath of the earth or the seventh day of the earth's creation.

So if we are truly in the endtimes and the coming of Christ is close, which it is, it means the earth is in the final hours of its sixth day (its six thousandth year)

Shalom

Welcome to Africa, the land of religion where university graduates still hold the belief that the earth is 6000 years old.
If we tell them to study science, they won't listen....
if the whites did not explore science and space, I wonder how you would ve had Internet to post this...
"while we look up to pray, the whites were doing space explorations"
6000 years ko, 6000 hours ni...go and study, read about your solar system, galaxy and universe
let there be light and there was light, that sun is over billions of years old

asalimpo:
1) Suicide is a sin?
-----------------------------
says who?

2) The earth is 6000 years old?
-------------------------------------
provide scriptures please.


Christians too are guilty of spewing a whole lot of crap without scriptural evidence.
And want to force it on you.

well OP, I just want to say this quickly.

you may not believe this, but your life is actually a gift from God, and willfully throwing it away by suicide is an abuse of that same gift.

all sins are one form of abuse or the other of the gifts God has given to us.

you can abuse the gift of your sexuality by engaging in fornication, adultery or gayism.

you can abuse your gift of speech, sight etc. get it?

dazzlingd:

Welcome to Africa, the land of religion where university graduates still hold the belief that the earth is 6000 years old.
If we tell them to study science, they won't listen....
if the whites did not explore science and space, I wonder how you would ve had Internet to post this...
"while we look up to pray, the whites were doing space explorations"
6000 years ko, 6000 hours ni...go and study, read about your solar system, galaxy and universe
let there be light and there was light, that sun is over billions of years old

The study of galaxies, solar systems and planets is a personal hubby of mine. I read extensively and watch online documentaries about the universe, black holes, dark matter, dark energy etc.

I'm a science research lover and I'm also a believer in Christ. I don't know why people have this delusion that christianity is antiscience.

God is the ultimate scientist, and science is the study of God's physical creation and the laws He ordained to order His physical creation. That's why I love science.

But when it comes to the age of things, the true age of things is relative to when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should take them to have looked this way.

When God created Adam, He created him as a full grown man, not as a baby. So if you were to look at Adam then, you would say you're looking at a 30year old man, not knowing you're looking at only a day old man.

So when Adam looked 31years old, he was only one year and a day old by creation.

Today, some scientists that don't believe in creation account look at stars and planetary bodies and claim they are billions of years old, because according to them that's how long it should take for a sun to become a white dwarf, or pulser etc.

God can make what He created look any age at the point of creation, like He made Adam look 30years at just a day old.

God created time and it is subject to Him. So when you look up at the universe and everything in it, you must learn to say, "Let God be true". Because the true age of a thing is based on when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should have taken it to look this way.

Shalom

ayoku777:


The study of galaxies, solar systems and planets is a personal hubby of mine. I read extensively and watch online documentaries about the universe, black holes, dark matter, dark energy etc.

I'm a science research lover and I'm also a believer in Christ. I don't know why people have this delusion that christianity is antiscience.

God is the ultimate scientist, and science is the study of God's physical creation and the laws He ordained to order His physical creation. That's why I love science.

But when it comes to the age of things, the true age of things is relative to when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should take them to have looked this way.

When God created Adam, He created him as a full grown man, not as a baby. So if you were to look at Adam then, you would say you're looking at a 30year old man, not knowing you're looking at only a day old man.

So when Adam looked 31years old, he was only one year and a day old by creation.

Today, some scientists that don't believe in creation account look at stars and planetary bodies and claim they are billions of years old, because according to them that's how long it should take for a sun to become a white dwarf, or pulser etc.

God can make what He created look any age at the point of creation, like He made Adam look 30years at just a day old.

God created time and it is subject to Him. So when you look up at the universe and everything in it, you must learn to say, "Let God be true". Because the true age of a thing is based on when they were created by God, not by how they look or by how long you think it should have taken it to look this way.

Shalom

so u chose not to believe the scientific estimation of the age of the earth....
but u enjoy all other inventions and discoveries of science.
If not science, we wud still believe that the earth is flat..
that the moon is jst a ball hanging in the air,
that the sun revolves round the earth...
We won't have known that other planets and galaxies exist...
that the stars are sparkling little stones and stars can fall....
Science estimates the age of rocks, discovered the earth's topograhpy, biosphere, lithosphere, discovered oil and energy...
u enjoy the researches in medical lines, dna, hybrids, transportation, technology and innovations discovered by scientist who dared to be curious....

but u still chose to assume and believe that the earth is 6000 years old. Well it is a natural instinct to defend what u have been made to believe...but it's your choice to open your mind to reality and be honest to yourself.

Asalimpo,
Do you believe the bible is the Inspired Word of God?
If you don't, then all the evidence adduced against your claims will ring hollow. Scriptures encourage us to THINK and reason,mbut not caricature God

The circumstances of suicide can also be applied to other things such as prostitution,adultery,homosexuality.... If you are going to wallow in situational ethics your hands are going to be full. But you won't get nowhere.

As you have been told, the sanctity of life is what makes suicide sin.

The earth is 6000 years because Adam, created in the 6th day has finite and known descendants going to Christ.