KunleOshob:

Ahh!!!!!! TV01, nice to see your post, how have you been?

KunleOshob:
You can see your friend is back to harrass us whilst continously twisting scripture to promote her tithing agenda. I really wonder what keeps her going.

tayotoyin:

I loooooooooooooove your courtesy man!

TV01:

I posted on the "Once saved always saved" thread initiated by Gamine. Coincidentally - or not? - she was right behind me. After one post I pretty much sussed. Motive? inspiration?? I have my thoughts.

It'll never last and he is a she.  !

This is the mystery of the Christian faith. It is clear that Abraham acted out of his own freewill without the enactment of any legalistic commanements to do so as regards the tithe he gave to Melchizedek. What condemns any believer if they also do the same in principle - acting our of their freewills as led by the Holy Spirit?

chukwudi44:

If this is the way tithing is preached today's churches I wont have any problem with that but criminals whom you re very much aware of like Mattew Ashimolowo preach that christians must pay 10% of their incomes to the church in accordance with a aman  made commandment that they purported to emenate from God.

Pilgrim1 ,obviously you are out to cause confusion in this forum,as the saying goes the leopard never changes it,s spots,it is now very obvious that you re not a true christian,you definitely know what you re doing,if you like pick another ID and call it viapilgim ,we will still know u .

You will claim that tithing is not compulsory,then you go ahead to attack those who ondemn exponents of compulsory tithing,which side of the divide are u?

I am yet to see anyone in this forum who is against someone who freely decides to give 10% of his/her income to the church,that is not what we preach against,

viaro:

What then do you preach against? Look dear sir, if you are not against something, let's see you encourage it instead of trying to "confirm" dubious tales from askelm.com! I'm not against anyone who does not feel led to tithe - God bless them as much as He blesses those He leads to do so.

Zikkyy:

There is no need for all this. Its been quite obvious that anti-tithers on this thread are not against those that tithe out of freewill. The issue has been that of churches using tithing scheme to con members into surrendering a tenth of their earnings to the church coffers by making it a compulsory act.

Personnaly i believe the act of free will giving should be encoraged here instead as opposed to tithing cos tithing is more susceptible to fraudelent manipulations by churches. To encourage tithing here is to continue to promote the con by some of these churches. However, we should not discourage those that give a tenth to their church if that is what they really want to do (i.e. have shined their eyes very well before deciding to tithe). Thats is the way i see it.

Quote from: Deposky on October 09, 2009, 08:34 PM
In my view, Jesus in this case wasn't giving instructions on tithing per se, but castigating the Pharisees for being meticulous in 'obedience' to the law, but failing to do things that would improve the lives of fellow people. While you might regard it as tacit support for tithing, this is a flawed view.

Jesus was clearly NOT against the practice of tithing - he wouldn't be because it served a clear role in providing for the priesthood as specified under Mosaic law.

In all his teachings about the KINGDOM of heaven/Kingdom of God, no tithing is mentioned - that is a clear omission that is telling in my view.

The tithing (as under the law) which Jesus was speaking of related primarily to bringing food items to the temple, not money, and to the Levites who had no inheritance. He mentioned tithe of dill and cumin not money, and definitely did not teach any of this to his disciples. We hear of no collections of dill and cumin monthly, weekly or at any other frequencies.

ogajim:

Tonye-t, you need to stop this nonsense! Did Apostle Paul live off the Gospel?

If tithe was such a requirement Jesus would have DEMANDED it as well as the Apostles that took over spreading the Gospel afterwords.

The devil is a very smart dude to the point that he has taken over some of the so called "churches" to the point that they're preaching nonsense instead of the true Gospel of Christ.
Nothing stops a "pastor" from taking a real job instead of running a scam that has no Scriptural ground, no wonder Jesus Christ pointed out that even some of them that performed miracles in his name will be denied on that great day, if someone wants to give 10% or more out of their own conviction, that is fine but they should not be "shamed", cajoled, or even scared into thinking that 10% tithing is a requirement of Salvation.

Being a "pastor" should not be because you couldn't get a real job, it should come out of a true desire to serve God and not profit from the Gospel of Christ. Our God doesn't dwell in temples built with human hands, support your "pastor" if you can but you face no condemnation if you are unable to support the pastor, the orphan, the widow or the stranger. Enough of this heresy!

Tonye-t:

[li] Your view of not seeing tithing as an instruction given by Jesus is a blunder in the first place, because the statements of Jesus in that verse explicitly xrayed tithing as an injunction , see it again [/li]

What does this verse seem to you I ask again doesn’t it look more of an instruction than a suggestion? The problem I see is that most times we rarely even read the scriptures before we claim/emphasize a point. If one translation would not explain to your understanding it would be best you check thru’ another

viaro:

Perhaps we all too forget that the Holy Spirit can (and has continued to) speak to believers to tithe - and as they have responded (not as a matter of "requirement" or "demand",

viaro:

He has also glorified the Name of Jesus and blessed those who obeyed. It does not have to be "required" before you see it as a DEMAND. Perhaps if we learn to refrain from these confusing connotations, then we shall be able to better appreciate the aspects we are missing in all this.

Tonye-t:

[li] Your view of not seeing tithing as an instruction given by Jesus is a blunder in the first place, because the statements of Jesus in that verse explicitly xrayed tithing as an injunction , see it again [/li][/color][/font]

Tonye-t:

This passage meant that God’s plan for clergy was first to do his work regardless of any benefit, then its of Gods choice to assign source of benefits from them, in a more clearer explanation it says that God’s orginal design of titheing was not to feed any clergy, it was to see our prove of TOTAL love for God that was why the bible never recorded that Melchisedek asked Abraham for tithe, because it was a task expected of Abraham (prove of worship) then its of God to give the lot to melchisedec, do you understand?

Tonye-t:

[li] paragraph 3 is just the same story I have been hearing since the inception of this topic: that because Jesus never mentioned tithe after the incident with the pharisees meant that it was IRRELEVANT or not too important or not needful, now my question to you is [B] MUST YOU HAVE TO SEE/HEAR JESUS SAY A THING TWICE, THRICE BEFORE YOUR ADHERE[/b] wouldn’t that mean doubt, wouldn’t that mean partial obedience, wouldn’t that mean an act of little faith, in my own world, I only need him to say something once and its of me to adhere, HIS WORD words IS LIFE[/li]

Zikkyy:

There is that possibility that it is the demonic spirit of MOG that is speaking to the so called "believers" (being so gullible). Just a thought.

I dont know and cannot speak for them. I dont think you can either. You can only speak for yourself. So lets stick to what we can validate.

My understanding of the above is that there is a special blessing attached to tithing. People get their blessings whether they tithe or dont tithe, be you Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Carlos Slims, Aliko Dangote, Femi Otedola, Jim Ovia or even Erastus Akingbola.

The Almighty in his infinite wisdom decides who, when & how to provide these blessings. If the heavens were to be opened for everybody that currently tithe, the street of Lagos (for example) will be lined with Limos (no more molue, danfo or okada) and Nigeria will be a better place to live (foreigners will be queueing up in Nigerian High commisions abroad to get visa).

Except of course it goes beyond cash in the pocket or multi-digits bank account (but that's the general tither's perception of tithing, due maybe to the way tithe is preached).

I think we should stop using the word tithe to describe this type of giving as Tonye-t's view of tithing readily comes to mind.

This usually result in heated debates. Lets call it "freewill contribution from income" or "special freewill offering" or any other term you can come up with.

I dont understand what you mean by "DEMAND" above. Maybe you can help me with some clarifications. Thanks.

Zikkyy:

I dont understand what you mean by "DEMAND" above. Maybe you can help me with some clarifications. Thanks.

It does not have to be "required" before you see it as a DEMAND. Perhaps if we learn to refrain from these confusing connotations, then we shall be able to better appreciate the aspects we are missing in all this.

viaro:

True, we may speak in terms of what we know, not what we have no clues about - and what I held in that regard is what I have verified on many occasions - if we are to stick to 'what we can validate'. But there again, WHAT can anyone truly "validate"? Arguments on either side of the anti-this and pro-that? The arguments are mere theorizing which can easily be countered one way or another.

viaro:

Lol, that is simply mischievous, sorry. Where do all the names you mentioned get their blessings from when some of them are not known to be Christians anyway? God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom; so the idea that they "get their blessings" is a misconstruction.

viaro:

And if you're wondering, I happen to be one of those who knows there are blessings attached to[b] tithes and other forms of giving and offerings[/b]. Good luck if you don't, but that's just us (you and me).

viaro:

Okay, so it appears that for you, the 'blessing' has to be materialism in one form or the other - else, I don't see the relevance of your examples of Limos, etc. are dealing precisely with what true blessings are. I think as believers, we need to be far more matured in our outlook than thinking that way. There are blessings that are beyond material gains, even as you might have quickly noticed below:

I understand that so many people have a false perception of tithes, offerings, giving, etc. Indeed, if no one ever mentioned tithes and merely preached from Luke 6:38 ('Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom'), wouldn't that on surface value make people think the same way as you opined? Wouldn't preaching from that verse make people think that giving is all about getting "multi-digit bank accounts" in return? Yes, that is another verse that has been abused as much as the tithing verses - and people have developed a hard-to-fade idea about getting back "100-fold" in return if they gave "5-fold".

But no, that is not what Kingdom blessings are all about - it is not all about materialism.

viaro:

Haha. . that is one complaint I have read a zillion times. Now, for those who have testimonies that the Holy Spirit urged them to tithe, I wonder what it would be if they turned round and rather responded: "I pray Thee, let it please Thee to stop using the word tithe. . . use any other word, and thy servant shall obey Thee!" Lol. In the same way, when people abuse Luke 6:38, we can then apply the same measure: let's stop using the word: "Give"! Just because people tend to abuse some term does not bring about an abandonment of the term - if that is the viable solution we can think of, then we need to abandon every single thing that has been abused through the history of Christianity. What would we be left with in the end?

Zikkyy:

For e.g. We can rely on the content of the Holy Bible. Agreed our interpretations might differ, but we have the written (& authentic) words to base our discussions on.

So, are you saying that weath should not be considered a blessing? What i am trying to say here is that non tithers still get to reap that same reward that tithers claim to receive. So, the question is this

do we necessarily have to tithe to receive that blessing? i.e was the blessing as a result of our tithing? (becuase non tithers also benefits),

or was the blessing simply because we have lived our live in a way that the Almighty approved of.

My position is this, if we all get to receive similar blessings, the basis for getting blessed goes beyond just tithing or not tithing.

Good. I am happy to note you added "other forms of giving and offerings". It goes beyond just tithing. Please take this info to the pro-tithing community. I guess they will listen to you. They take you as one of their own.

I like this Viaro. This has always been my position. Based on my various interactions with pro-tithers, i would suggest you take the issue of the Limo to them (they have the good life in mind when they are dropping that tithe). The act of tithing or any other form of giving should not be seen as a capital market investment. Also take this info to the pro-tithing community. But i am sure the MOGs/Ministers will  not be happy with you as it will result in material decrease in tithe collections

I have been wondering why the Holy Spirit will select christians to advise on tithing? or does this mean these are the people recognised by the Almighty as pleasing in his sight. What happens to other christians yet to receive "advise to tithe" and as a result not tithing? Me i am afraid ooooooh. It means there is problem if this is true.

When i made the statement about the change of name, i was only trying to  take away some seriousness from the thread. But after seeing your very long response, i will say that it does require a change of name if the tithing community keep trying to justify tithing by reference to a totally unrelated & unnecessary (for christians) practice under the mosaic law. i.e tithing=malachi 3=compliance=food in Gods house=swimming in a river of cash.

There is no correlation  between what is practiced now and what the jews practiced. It quite misleading and a lot of tithers today dont really know why they are tithing.

viaro:

It is on that same basis that we can validate the speaking of the Holy Spirit to any believer.

viaro:

Second, you're absolutely wrong to infer that statement in bold, because I was pointing to the examples you gave earlier.

viaro:

What blessing are you referring to, Zikkyy? I hope we are not generalizing issues and blurring the distinctions?

I understand your position; but what blessings did you mean by "similar blessings"? Please keep in mind that I'm still commenting on the part you quoted from mine: "God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom; so the idea that they "get their blessings" is a misconstruction" - that is what I would have you bear in mind when you refer to "similar blessings". And that is why I keep asking what you're on about. Generalizations here are not quite helpful.

viaro:

When you say "non tithers also benefit", what exactly do you mean?

What blessing are you referring to, Zikkyy?

I understand your position; but what blessings did you mean by "similar blessings"?

viaro:

but if a believer wants to be blessed in context of what he has seen in Scripture on the subject, then he should apply its principles thereto.

viaro:

God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom;

viaro:

The point is not just about tithes, but as highlighted above, it's not just about tithes - there are abuses coming from other forms of giving as well. For us Christians to just single out tithes for a life-long arguments is doing us no good whatsoever.

Zikkyy:

If i tell you i was led by the Holy Spirit to buy my MOG the 2010 Range Rover SUV, i honestly dont know how you are going to validate that statement. Its what i tell you, as your evaluation of my person can be wrong. Maybe you have some special powers i am not aware of.

No i am not wrong. But i let this go because you relied on the names i gave as examples of men "blessed" with wealth to respond. I dont even know if they tithers or non-tithers, christians or non christians. They have money which is what most tithers seek, hence the reasoning for citing these names. Also, these people are not the basis for my saying non-tithers also receives similar blessings as tithers.

I agree i have done some bit of generalizing here. But i will say i was refering to whatever reward (blessing) a tither might receive. I dont tithe so dont have the details, so its safer for me to generalize. Maybe if you tell me what these rewards are then i can be more specific. Being a tither, you must have been receiving these rewards  

I meant tithers are not "singled" out and given special blessings for tithing (financial or otherwise).  As a tither i am sure you have received blessings that some non-tithing christians receive by simply praying.

My position is that we get our blessings not because we give a particular percentage of our income to the church. It goes beyond that. To better answer your question maybe you can help with some examples of rewards received by tithers (being a tither yourself).

or maybe i can use your statement about people "led by the spirit to tithe" as a means of getting themselves out of difficult situations.

I dont have details on the nature of difficulty in your example, but there are also non-tithers who find themselves in similar situations or even worse.

Some have gotten out of these by simply going down on their knees and praying.

Yours truly "Zikkyy" being a very good example.

Tithers dont find themselves in situations exclusive to them and their breakthrough is not exclusive either. You can provide examples of these special/exclusive rewards if you have any (cos i dont know of any) so we can compare notes.

Other than the heavens opening up and the tither being washed away in flood of blessing (only God knows where) for complying with the mosaic law on tithing, I cant think of anything else the tither will take out from the scriptures. Is there anything else he is seeing that am blinded to? please help out as i dont want to be left out.

And God did not speak about tithes to non Jews either.

Zikkyy:

I agree with you. Its not just about tithe. But for now tithe is the big money takings. Other forms of giving are not as abused as the act of tithing. maybe its because its easier to convince people to tithe due to the perceived "returns" to be derived.

chukwudi44:

@zikky

Pilgrim 1 knows fully the problem at hand but is merely laying to the galery,she is obviously an accomplice in this whole scam.

1)first she wil say hat tihing is not compulsory,next she goes ahead to criticize people who condemn criminals like Mathew Ashimolowo and Creflo Dollar ,who fleece their embers of their hard earned incomes by telling them that there are cursed if there don't pay tithe since there are robbing God.

Nobody has said people should not financially assist their churches ,but criminals have latched on the obsolete mosaic law of tithing to steal billions of dollars worth of money from their ignoarnt and hypnotised congregations,this is what we are fighting.Pilgrim 1 knows this but has simply chosen to be playing pranks ,she is a member of this criminal cartel that has been using the bible to rob innocent victims of their hard earned money in the name of tithes.


The crux of this whole matter is[b] must[/b] christians pay 10% of their incomes to their churches in The name of tithes
The answer can either be YES or NO there is nothing like sitting on the fence,any one who sits on the fence is a criminal

viaro:

You again, my dear guy, are mixing up issues terribly. Let me wrap this up for you so we don't keep bantering back and forth: the issue of tithing for me is not a formula - it was not given in Scripture as a plastic, one-lane traffic that must be interpreted in one way and only that one way! That is the huge mistake anti-tithers make and repeatedly bring up in discussions. If that is how you see it, I don't have any quizzes about that;

viaro:

That aside, what blessings are you referring to? You keep making this blanket statement that we get our blessings, not because we give a particular percentage of our income to the church. So, what blessings are you referring to; and how do you get "the same blessing" regardless of whether or not you do what others are doing? It sounds like one can just sit down with folded arms, closed eyes, mutter some formula - and woosh! the "same blessings" are thereby obtained. Please, I would like to know what you mean by the same blessings, then I shall go on and enunciate other types of blessings in context and see if they apply. You cannot just sit there and make assumptions every time, and then turn round and ask me to answer your own roll-call for you. It doesn't work that way. You don't tithe - good; but at the same time you know that as a non-tither you're getting the "same blessings" as tithers. My simple question is: please tell me what you mean by "the same blessings" and the we shall compare notes. I hope I'm not asking too much?

viaro:

If you want examples, I can discuss further - both from Scripture, and in the testimonies of other people. I said so before, and I'm inviting you again.

viaro:

Conjecture - or you want me to flag the question of "validation" as well? If you can make statements like this, what is wrong with others also telling you that they knew for a fact that the Holy Spirit asked them to tithe specifically for something?

viaro:

Good, Zikkyy, good. You know, of course, that is not a formula for all believers - there are indeed many who have done that same thing, and they didn't get their problems solved that way.

viaro:

but I just wonder that anti-tithers are always in the business of asking other people to do what they themselves should have done.

viaro:

"materialism" is not my focus on this issue or any other aspect of our giving.

viaro:

Let me ask you: was Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek taught in Scripture as "complying with the mosaic Law on tithing"? Just start from there. Why do Christians like to bend everything back to the Law of Moses?  M-e-n! Set your thinking free from such linear strains - that is not helpful at all.

viaro:

Dear Zikkyy, let me offer this little tip: tithing was not given in Scripture to "comply" with the Law of Moses! Repeat that statement until it sinks in. The moment you make that huge mistake, nothing else would be meaningful to you in this discussion.

viaro:

Hahaha! Zikky, you're such a spot! I don't know how many times I heard that from others; but let me give you my typical answer. It is a question, actually:

             Was Abraham a JEW when he tithed to Melchizedek?

M-e-n! I never for once thought you'd fall into that trap!   Brodaly, please. .  release your mind from that idea and understand that TITHES are not restricted to whether you're in Jerusalem or Jericho! You don't have to check whether or not you're a Jew before considering the issue of tithing!

viaro:

God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom;

Zikkyy:

And God did not speak about tithes to non Jews either.

Zikkyy:

That’s not the way I see it, it’s the way the way pro-tithers see it. Pro-tithers believe there is a special reward for tithing. They don’t see it any other way. So please take your comments to the pro-tithing community.

Let’s take Tonye-t recent increase as a case study. (I guess I will have to apologize later for this). Tonye-t recently got an increase at work and he is being considered as a branch head. He claims this was as a result of his tithing. Now my question is this; are non-tithers not entitled to increases or promotion in the workplace? If they are, then what is the basis for it? I hope this helps in understanding what I meant by “same blessings”

Please provide examples from the scriptures on how people were led by the spirit and tithed to get themselves out of a difficult situation. Testimonies of other people are what they tell us. We cannot validate.

Finally, we have agreed that we cannot rely on what we hear from others. We can only speak for ourselves. Thanks Viaro.

True, I agree. So also with tithing, there are many tithers with un-resolved difficulties.

Zikkyy:

I don’t understand.

If all pro-tithers agree that materialism is not an issue we will not be having this discussion.

I guess my discussion with you has been based on the general perception of tithing by pro-tithing community. It appears your expectations was i stick to your personal views only. My apologies.

You can refer to my response above here. It forms the basis for my quote.
We are all aware that Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek. It’s been agreed that the practice of given a tenth was before the time of Moses. But do we have complete information about this practice?

Maybe you can answer this; what then is the basis of the tithing practice in our churches today?

What is the justification provided by Ministers and tithers for tithing?

Except you want to deceive yourself Viaro, we all know our practice today is drawn from the Mosaic law on tithing.

Whats this all about? I don’t understand this as well. Kindly help clarify. Thanks

Maybe i should repeat your quote one more time below.

God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom;

and my response below

And God did not speak about tithes to non Jews either.

I am still trying to figure out how my comment justifies the kind of response i am getting from you.

Viaro, can you tell me where in the bible;
1. God told gentiles to tithe?
2. God specifies how Gentiles should tithe?
3. How Abrahams tithe to Melchizedek can be related to God message to Gentiles about tithing

Once again, let me clarify that this is not about the origin of tithe; it is about the modern day tithing practice.  It obvious tithing by Abraham is used as an escape route to justify the reasoning for tithing.

What i hear from pro-tithers is that even Abraham paid tithe. If you claim your tithing is based on the fact that Abraham tithed, I don’t see how we can relate our current practice to a practice we know next to nothing about.

Can we confirm that Abraham was paying a tenth of his income periodically (monthly, annual, weekly e.t.c) to any temple?

Can we confirm that Abraham was paying a tenth of his income periodically for Melchizedek upkeep?

Can we confirm that God told Abraham to pay a tenth of his income as there are certain rewards attached?

Can we confirm that Abraham tithed before and subsequent to giving a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek?

Even if we accept that modern day tithing is based on Abrahams act, is that the practice today?  Maybe you should consider going to war so you can pay your tithe out of the spoils of war. IRAQ or Afghanistan would not be a bad place to start.

Lol, perhaps you had a serious malady with pilgrim and that is why you're hell bent on making me into her. Good sport. Anyhow, for your info, I have not been sitting on the fence - and just incase you don't know (you hardly know anything anyways), I have not made paying any percentage a "MUST". Please go and read through my discussions with others; and if you are too challenged to reason, no need misrepresenting anybody here. Besides, you haven't advanced beyond your complaining - that sounds rather childish. If the way I lay your "confirmation" of Ernest L. Martin's tales to waste is giving you nightmares, that's okay - it just teaches you to stop recycling the fictitious tales of "Christian ministers" who add shame to their anti-tithing arguments to easily fool chaps like you. For all that, please leave that sad blot aside and get done with it. I have not sat on the fence, nor did I make paying anything to anyone a "MUST" - unless you just have not bothered to see that I was the one who has been discussing that our giving is neither a "requirement" nor a "demand".

If you have anything more sensible to say, it would be great to read. If not, please do something else.

viaro:

When people assert that God did not speak about tithes to non-Jews, I often ask them to think about Abraham as a starting point: surely, Abraham was not a 'Jew' when Genesis 14:20 occured. Melchizedek was NOT a Jew either! If we're going to be honest, Melchizedek was a GENTILE! What do we then do with their own examples - ignore them? On what basis?

chukwudi44:

The act is is there any pentecostal church that preaches this version of tithing ?,they all insist on a percentage of 10 and a mandatory obligation of all members this is what I am preaching against

viaro:

I wanted a discourse, but from that last note, it does not show me you're[b] serious [/b] about engaging.