I wanna see unwarped the Christian reasoning is by asking Nezan to tell us all he knows about the Sole Creator, the One the Christians single out as The Only God worthy of Worship by addressing the following;

Give us His name that is Unique and no one else bears it. How about His look that is Unique than nothing else is like Him? His position in place of Honor that nothing can ever get to it. His shape that nothing is like Him. His creatorship that makes Him different from all others that they must be called creations, and He the Only Creator. How many is He?


Give us what ae common between He and other (all creations, Angels, Messengers and Prophets from mankind, Jinns, plants and aminals and other inanimates). Does this God eats, drinks, sleeps, deficates, tires, waries, slumbers, needs helps and assistances, and does He succumb to death that He creates for the creations?


I wanna read about your Christian "God" whether He is just like me or completely different and unique that the mind can not truly capture His essence except only what we know and in logic and practicality, are feasible!

you see, even as evil as the pagan arabs were, there was no image to represent their allah. they did not even used money from businesses that involved interests of any sort to participate in the rebuilding of Kaaba that was after the flood of Noah built on the foundation footings by Ibrahim and his only son Ismal (AS)!

And any Christian that can proof otherwise should tender ther information, sources and lets examine it/them, and not just talk with empty bravados!

While you showboat as Christians with gods and imageries (cross and crucifixes, and pictures and pane/stain glasses pictures, etc), we in Islam have not, regardless of your lies and inuendos and forcing your lies like Dick Cheney, Rumfeld, Ashcroft, and indeed Bush and Powell about WMD, that Muslims worship moon god-god-devil-married-with three daughters allah, the evidences are clear: We in Islam destroy all gods and god and chose for ourselves the singly God, the Sole Focus of our worship Allah the Almighty, always Alive, full of Power and full of Knowledge!

We accept your lies as water over the bridge; It does not happen, it is always under the bridge!

Allahu akbar

What of the crescent and star symbols on your mosques and everything islamic? your desperation and lies can only be effective on spiritually dead people. How can I ever listen to anybody that follows a false prophet who was never covered in the Abrahamic covenant with God?

Muhammad (AS) is indeed the answer of acceptance of the Prayer of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) after he and his son, Ismail (AS) finished the building of Kaaba, using the visible foundation line left after the Flood of Nuh (AS)!

Evidetly you dont know that.

What a white lie? where was it documented that Abraham built a mosque with Ishmael? to which year was the document dated? not wishful thinking Olabs, not wishful thinking!

@Nezan: Quran is evident enough, a revelation by the Lord of all creations. Read about the Kaaba in the Quran and googllle it for books and references from the Arabs. I am a yoruba man, and whatever your tribe is in Nigeria, I know more of the yoruba history than a typical non yoruba man or woman, and you know more of yours than a typical non same tribe as you Nigerian man or woman.

Actually my reason for responding this evening is that I was reflecting about the many lies of the non Muslims about Allah; some say that He is an idol called allah and support their argument with te fact that the name was known before Muhammad (AS) and the idolators used to acknowledge this, and this is the reason that abdallah the father of the prophet was so named. Others called it one of the structures as the moon-god house in Kaaba among the 359 others. Yet others say it is the specific idol of the tribe of Quraish, elevated over the other arab tribes! None of these and other attachments of Allah of Islam to idolatry is true.

Let me answer all of these allegations in few sentences: [b]If Allah of Muhammad's Islam is any of these as the enemies of Islam assert, when Muhammad (AS) began his ministry by announcing the destructions and the unworthiness of worship of all idols of all kinds, would the Quraishi, indeed, his Uncles Abu Lahab (Surah 111 was revealed to confirm his tragic demise as a dsbeliever along with his wife's), and Abu Sham (known as Abu Jahal), would they have risen up along with almost all of the Quraishi to oppose him? Would they not have been jubillating as he would have elevated their tribal god over all others, which it would have been a good reason for the Quraishi to actually plan to destroy all of the idols, except 'allah' their own alone to be left as the symbol of this tribal 'victory?" Further, when Makka was opened and muslims under the leadership of Prophet Muhammad marched in to the Kaaba to begin to destroy the idols, would they not have kept the idol 'allah' of their Quraishi ethic tribe? Has anyone destroyed his own god before, except Judas Iscariot who caused the demise of his own leader, Jesus the god of the Christians?

Finally, they muslims have a name for moon; Qamar, a name for sun; Shams, a name for star; Najm, a name for earth; Ardhi (earth sounds like it. No?), a name for heaven; Sama'a, a name for mankind; Nas, a name for stone; Hajara, a name for tree; Shajara, now where and what are the the names or what is the name of all of these individual or collective created identified objects, things, items, if you deny that muslims' Allah is not it, for muslims?[/b] The Muslims say their Lord is Allah. Even the non-muslim arabs have not said that they are wrong, except some due to pressure from their puppet masters from other cultures find an umbrella to argue outwardly about the preIslamic usage and existence of the same word as a deity, but internally like many people who are arrogenat and therefore refuse to bow to the One Whom all Bowing is due, they stick to their firmly to their wrong ways.

My post:

What a white lie? where was it documented that Abraham built a mosque with Ishmael? to which year was the document dated? not wishful thinking Olabs, not wishful thinking!

Olabowale's response:

@Nezan: Quran is evident enough, a revelation by the Lord of all creations. Read about the Kaaba in the Quran and googllle it for books and references from the Arabs.

@olabowale; you see how deranged your reasoning is? Abraham existed hundreds of years before. Everything he did was recorded in the Jewish Torah. Know you come and tell me that you believe that he built a mosque with ishmael which the koran recorded over a 1000 years after the purported event occured?

Since Abraham's life was recorded in the Torah without this event, it is totally correct to refer to this record, written over 1000 years after Abraham lived as a forgery.

@Nezan: « #40 on: Today at 11:41:34 AM »

@olabowale; you see how deranged your reasoning is? Abraham existed hundreds of years before. Everything he did was recorded in the Jewish Torah. Know you come and tell me that you believe that he built a mosque with ishmael which the koran recorded over a 1000 years after the purported event occured?

Since Abraham's life was recorded in the Torah without this event, it is totally correct to refer to this record, written over 1000 years after Abraham lived as a forgery.

My reasoning is not deranged. Far from it! There used to be a time that people was made to believe that the earth was flat. The powerful Church, took the position and killed plenty of people who had a different opinion! Today, after so many centuries that the Churched prevailed and executed many, that archaic belief is now disbelieved. But yet this now discarded church position used to be the only truth and was long the standardized belief of what the earth is!

So if one follows your above idea, about Ibrahim, who was not a Jew and not a Christian, one will die ignorant, not considering that his original home of this man was the ethnic city state "Ur" in mesopotamia present day Iraq! Then he traveled to Egypt where Pharaoh gave him Hagar as a wife. hagar was a coptic tribe egyptian princess! And the first son and usually first son will be the only son for a period of time until the second child was born, was Ismail, from this Egyptian Coptic! From islamic point of view, while you blame Sarah because of her jealousy for her yoir son, Ismail and her mother were separated from the house as a test, a decision made by Allah on Ibrahim based on his affirmation of faith in Surah An Am, verse; 162. Allah says in many verses of the Quran, that do believers think that they say they believe and not be tested? The test of Ibrahim (AS) was the separation of his household, the yong wife of this old man, and his only child away from the main house, settled in a far away barren land; Makka!

If is a proof to his faith and the faith in resolve in Allah that the young wife with a young baby accepted their fate, as Ibrahim (AS) return to the main house! The events of their lives a short time later, for mother and son, became the part of hajj that are the running between the two mountains called Saffa and marwa. later as the event of slaughter of a son by Ibrahim was being carried out and the ransome that followed became the jamrat or the stoning of the devil, who was tempting mother, and also temptempted father so that the dream of a prophet would not be fulfilled! And the ransome became the slaughtering of animal the day after Arafat!

Now that I have established clarly that Ibrahim was in Makka where his young wife and the apple of his eye settled in, I wil now give you the proof that after the flood of Nuh (AS), and upon Ismail becoming a child in the age that he can help his father, they built the Kaaba and Ibrahim called mankind to make Hajji, vis a vis, there is a place around the Kaaba, in the general (NE) of the black stone (E), known as "Maqam Ibrahima" position of Ibrahim!

Read Surah Baqarah Verses 121 to 127.

My reasoning is not deranged. Far from it! There used to be a time that people was made to believe that the earth was flat. The powerful Church, took the position and killed plenty of people who had a different opinion! Today, after so many centuries that the Churched prevailed and executed many, that archaic belief is now disbelieved. But yet this now discarded church position used to be the only truth and was long the standardized belief of what the earth is!

How is this related to my question?

So if one follows your above idea, about Ibrahim, who was not a Jew and not a Christian

Surely, he was a muslim

the yong wife of this old man

See why I say your reasoning is deranged? you now refer to Abraham's slave girl as his wife, but you were busy defending mohammed that the other women that were attributed to him were slave girls. What a warped reasoning

If is a proof to his faith and the faith in resolve in Allah that the young wife with a young baby accepted their fate, as Ibrahim (AS) return to the main house! The events of their lives a short time later, for mother and son, became the part of hajj that are the running between the two mountains called Saffa and marwa. later as the event of slaughter of a son by Ibrahim was being carried out and the ransome that followed became the jamrat or the stoning of the devil, who was tempting mother, and also temptempted father so that the dream of a prophet would not be fulfilled! And the ransome became the slaughtering of animal the day after Arafat!

Ishmael was never the covenant child. The covenant child was Isaac. I asked you to give me evidence of where all your fairy tales were recorded but you could not, instead citing the koran which was written over a thousand years after the purported event occured!

Now that I have established clarly that Ibrahim was in Makka where his young wife and the apple of his eye settled in, I wil now give you the proof that after the flood of Nuh (AS), and upon Ismail becoming a child in the age that he can help his father, they built the Kaaba and Ibrahim called mankind to make Hajji, vis a vis, there is a place around the Kaaba, in the general (NE) of the black stone (E), known as "Maqam Ibrahima" position of Ibrahim!

You mean Abraham left sarah to live with Hagar??

Just give me the evidence and stop yapping!!

Ibrahi and Islail (AS) and the building of Kaaba.


www.amaana.org/ISWEB/eidadha.htm - Cached - Similar

You mean you have no evidence other than koranic verses?. I told you plainly that all the fairy tales from the koran were written over a thousand years after the purported events occured!

How do you expect me to accept those writings in preference to the records that were taken at about the time the actual events occured?

The koranic verses are just jumbled up fairy tales, invented to cover up the exclusion of Ishmael from the Abrahamic covenant with God.

olabowale:


And there is no Christian Territory in Nigeria. Igboland they have now, I am colonizing it anew. No single square inch will be yielded for the Keferis.

olabowale, i fear the following story may give you nightmares. Similar stuff is happening in north Africa. What kind of times are we in.



Digging up the Saudi past: some would rather not

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Much of the world knows Petra, the ancient ruin in modern-day Jordan that is celebrated in poetry as "the rose-red city, 'half as old as time,'" and which provided the climactic backdrop for "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." But far fewer know Madain Saleh, a similarly spectacular treasure built by the same civilization, the Nabateans.That's because it's in Saudi Arabia, where conservatives are deeply hostile to pagan,[b] Jewish and Christian sites that predate the founding of Islam in the 7th century.[/b]But now, in a quiet but notable change of course, the kingdom has opened up an archaeology boom by allowing Saudi and foreign archaeologists to explore cities and trade routes long lost in the desert.

The sensitivities run deep. Archaeologists are cautioned not to talk about pre-Islamic finds outside scholarly literature. Few ancient treasures are on display, and no Christian or Jewish relics. A 4th or 5th century church in eastern Saudi Arabia has been fenced off ever since its accidental discovery 20 years ago and its exact whereabouts kept secret.

In the eyes of conservatives, the land where Islam was founded and the Prophet Muhammad was born must remain purely Muslim. Saudi Arabia bans public displays of crosses and churches, and whenever non-Islamic artifacts are excavated, the news must be kept low-key lest hard-liners destroy the finds."They should be left in the ground," said Sheikh Mohammed al-Nujaimi, a well-known cleric, reflecting the views of many religious leaders. "Any ruins belonging to non-Muslims should not be touched. Leave them in place, the way they have been for thousands of years."In an interview, he said Christians and Jews might claim discoveries of relics, and that Muslims would be angered if ancient symbols of other religions went on show. "How can crosses be displayed when Islam doesn't recognize that Christ was crucified?" said al-Nujaimi. "If we display them, it's as if we recognize the crucifixion."

In the past, Saudi authorities restricted foreign archaeologists to giving technical help to Saudi teams. Starting in 2000, they began a gradual process of easing up that culminated last year with American, European and Saudi teams launching significant excavations on sites that have long gone lightly explored, if at all.

At the same time, authorities are gradually trying to acquaint the Saudi public with the idea of exploring the past, in part to eventually develop tourism. After years of being closed off, 2,000-year-old Madain Saleh is Saudi Arabia's first UNESCO World Heritage Site and is open to tourists. State media now occasionally mention discoveries as well as the kingdom's little known antiquities museums. "It's already a big change," said Christian Robin, a leading French archaeologist and a member of the College de France. He is working in the southwestern region of Najran, mentioned in the Bible by the name Raamah and once a center of Jewish and Christian kingdoms.

No Christian artifacts have been found in Najran, he said.

Spearheading the change is the royal family's Prince Sultan bin Salman, who was the first Saudi in space when he flew on the U.S. space shuttle Discovery in 1985. He is now secretary general of the governmental Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities. Dhaifallah Altalhi, head of the commission's research center at the governmental Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities, said there are 4,000 recorded sites of different periods and types, and most of the excavations are on pre-Islamic sites."We treat all our sites equally," said Altalhi. "This is part of the history and culture of the country and must be protected and developed." He said archaeologists are free to explore and discuss their findings in academic venues. Still, archaeologists are cautious. Several declined to comment to The Associated Press on their work in the kingdom.

The Arabian Peninsula is rich, nearly untouched territory for archaeologists. In pre-Islamic times it was dotted with small kingdoms and crisscrossed by caravan routes to the Mediterranean. Ancient Arab peoples — Nabateans, Lihyans, Thamud — interacted with Assyrians and Babylonians, Romans and Greeks. Much about them is unknown.

Najran, discovered in the 1950s, was invaded nearly a century before Muhammad's birth by Dhu Nawas, a ruler of the Himyar kingdom in neighboring Yemen. A convert to Judaism, he massacred Christian tribes, leaving triumphant inscriptions carved on boulders. At nearby Jurash, a previously untouched site in the mountains overlooking the Red Sea, a team led by David Graf of the University of Miami is uncovering a city that dates at least to 500 B.C. The dig could fill out knowledge of the incense routes running through the area and the interactions of the region's kingdoms over a 1,000-year span. And a French-Saudi expedition is doing the most extensive excavation in decades at Madain Saleh. The city, also known as al-Hijr, features more than 130 tombs carved into mountainsides. Some 450 miles from Petra, it is thought to mark the southern extent of the Nabatean kingdom. In a significant 2000 find, Altalhi unearthed a Latin dedication of a restored city wall at Madain Saleh which honored the second century Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius.

So far, there has been no known friction with conservatives over the new excavations, in part because they are in the early stages, are not much discussed in Saudi Arabia, and haven't produced any announcements of overtly Christian or Jewish finds. But the call to keep the land purged of other religions runs deep among many Saudis. Even though Madain Saleh site is open for tourism, many Saudis refuse to visit on religious grounds because the Quran says God destroyed it for its sins. Excavations sometimes meet opposition from local residents who fear their region will become known as "Christian" or "Jewish." And Islam being an iconoclastic religion, hard-liners have been known to raze even ancient Islamic sites to ensure that they do not become objects of veneration. Saudi museums display few non-Islamic artifacts.

Riyadh's National Museum shows small pre-Islamic statues, a golden mask and a large model of a pagan temple. In some display cases, female figurines are listed, but not present — likely a nod to the kingdom's ban on depictions of the female form. A tiny exhibition at the King Saud University in Riyadh displays small nude statues of Hercules and Apollo in bronze, a startling sight in a country where unclothedness in art is highly taboo.

In 1986, picnickers accidentally discovered [b]an ancient church in the eastern region of Jubeil. Pictures of the simple stone building show crosses in the door frame.[/b]It is fenced off — for its protection, authorities say — and archaeologists are barred from examining it. Faisal al-Zamil, a Saudi businessman and amateur archaeologist, says he has visited the church several times. He recalls offering a Saudi newspaper an article about the site and being turned down by an editor. "He was shocked," al-Zamil said. "He said he could not publish the piece."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_hidden_past

olabowale:

@Nezan: Abuzola is whipping like I dont know what. He toys with you to much. You better pay your Jizya to him so that he can let off some.

really ? Is that all there is to it.

Abuzola:

And if you dare enter north not even abuja, i will roast you and tell people your blaspheme, before you know it your heart is plunged to pieces

almajiri

Nezan:

See why I say your reasoning is deranged? you now refer to Abraham's slave girl as his wife, but you were busy defending mohammed that the other women that were attributed to him were slave girls. What a warped reasoning

Let me ask you; are you more spiritually conscious, as in reverence to God, that ibrahim? If your answer is yes, then you are the deranged man, except that you do not know! if your answer is no, then, I will ask you if you participate in adultery? If you say yes, then you are an immoral man who should be stoned to death for cheating on his wife! If your answer is no, then I ask you; are you out of your mind to then think that Ibrahim will sleep with a princess, not in time time of war, as a captive of war, except that he married her as a wife, the reason she bore him as son!

« #43 on: Today at 01:11:49 PM »  
Ishmael was never the covenant child. The covenant child was Isaac. I asked you to give me evidence of where all your fairy tales were recorded but you could not, instead citing the koran which was written over a thousand years after the purported event occured!

This man is a straw man for sure! You are the man who will tell a friend of Allah of which is son is the son of covenant? SubhanAllah! The sign of covenant according to your Bible was the circumcision; and Ismail got it as a youth, before Isaiaq was  born! Which covenant; the one recorded in the some part truth some part lie book you called the Bible? And because it is many millieniums earlier than Quran makes it correct, when we see obvious inconsistences? You must be jiving me!



[Quote]You mean Abraham left sarah to live with Hagar??[/quote]Its a shame that you rae so green when it comes to women/wives and husband relationship. But then every man with one wife are like this! Do you know that those who have more than 1 wife, may have two or more omes? You take Ibrahim (AS) a friend of Allah to be so callous that he will abandone his son for a wife? You must be kidding me! Are you afather or you are just deficient of true emotion? A wife can lie to you and a means of test, and so does a child, but if both lie, you will tend to want to establish a relation with your offfspring tan a spouse! Look; we see that Noah lost a son and a wife to the flood, because of their disbelief, while Noah was lamenting about his son and not the wife! Lut lost a wife to disbelief in the raining of brimestones, and we did not hear him lamenting about her. The wife Pharaoh, Aasia, did not lament about him either!

Proof of continued relationship of Ibrahim with his son Ismail (AS) is the fact that the descendant of Isiaq (AS) spoke about him; Jacob and is sons/daughter, thogh the daughters were not mentioned! And Ismail was reported along with his brother Isiaq to bury their father Ibrahim when he died!

Just give me the evidence and stop yapping!!

I know I yap! Unfortunately, in my yapping, everything I say i true, but your heart shredded between 3 gods will not let you get it!

i wo omode yi, o ti sunlorun yi ni? its wednesday, already newzealand!

In all your long narratives, which are fairy tales as far as am concerned, you have not been able to give me the answer to what I asked you: 'Pre-islamic/pre-koranic evidences that Abraham built the kaaba with Ishmael'.

The kaaba was built by pagan arabs for the worship of they over 300 gods!

Why are muslims afraid of archeological findings in their area? simply because it will expose the lie called koran and islam!

Look at this man; your heart divided between three gods, never fully with one of them, will not let you get it! I posted a website, and if you remember, check your Bible for the Building Ibrahim built for his God! Is the Building destroyed? NO. That building is the Kaaba. This verse is one of the few truly uncorrupted verses still in the Bible!

Dont think you can dodge my question because I know muslims who are still wondering about this fallacy that Abraham built the kaaba. You may care to check this: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14268.0

For the last time, where are your pre-islamic evidences that Abraham built the kaaba?

No need to bother urself sir olabowale, nezan is a black goat, dumb, blind and deaf to see this clear truth. I wonder if he is mentally balance

I went to your website, Nezan and am happy to report that the contributor said, "if the story is true", as he was informed from where he god it, the asked the question, based on a particular verse of the Quran concerning Muhammad (AS) as a warner to people who had never received warners before. These two questions are legitimate and here are the answers to them.

The fact that "if" was part of the opinion, then we may say as Muslim that it is not true, condering the many lies that entered Torah, Injil for starter. Everyone including phanthom writers and Paul and the gang wrote all the Bible and put their own spin, example is calling human God!

The other issue of Muhammad (AS) being the warner to the Makkans who did not been warned before is the same issue with the Children of Israel not been warned until either Joseph, a member of the first generation of children of Israel or Moses who was truly their first warner, as the Children of Israel were fully established and needed a salvation from the yoke of slavery in Egypt, so does with the arabs, who were not even formed in Makka, during the lifetime of Ibrahim or his son Ismail, based on the fact that the focus was shifted to the children of Israel, a branch of the house of Ibrahim , through younger son Isiaq, the father of Jacob who was the father of the children of Israel!


Muhammad (AS) the last prophet came from the branch of the children of Kader, who was a child of Ismail, the son of Ibrahim. Did the Qurashi get established in the lifetime of Ibrahim and or Ismail? No! so now we see that the idea that the makkan were not warned until Muhammad (AS wraned them, just as the children of israel were not warned until Moses (AS)! In my book the best (Muhammad (AS)) was saved for last.

Now I simply asked googlle this question: Is that a pligrimage to Makka before the islam of Muhammad, and my surprise is that the christian arabs were reported to have made Hajj. Sometimes less than two months ago, I read some NL entry where some notable names of people from Christianity and or Judaism went to kaaba!


@Abuzola: My Allah reward you for your ffort and the standing firm against disbelief. This is llah's statement in Quran's AlMaidah when He warned the community that if it slacked in commitment to Him, he will change them with people anew dtermined and firm in Iman, soft to the believers and hard, as required and when necessary hard against the disbelievers! After this i lave Nezan, alone.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj - Cached - Similar
Hajj
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have skillfully dodged my question once again . . .

For the last time, [size=18pt]provide evidence from the pre-islamic era that Abraham built the kaaba![/size]

Go to google mr man and stop disturbing our peace

Keep off! I am discussing with alhaji olabowale