UyiIredia:


But consciousness is the means by which observation is done. How then can you claim it is observed?

UyiIredia:

An irrelevant question.

UyiIredia:

It follows. But I can see why you wouldn't want to agree to that. To preserve your precious atheism.

UyiIredia:

God is a metaphysical truth and metaphysical questions happen to fall under the category of things science cannot answer.

thehomer:


It is observed subjectively. The person experiencing it can observe it.

thehomer:

How is it irrelevant? The topic title is about the most powerful argument for your God.

thehomer:

How does it follow?

thehomer:

No, your God is made up.

Elohim1:

Near-Death Experiences May Not Be Evidence Of An Afterlife, Rather A Surge In Brain Activity
13 August 2013
Near-death experiences (NDEs) have been described by many as proof of the afterlife - intense white light, hallucinations of dead loved ones talking to them, angels and so on. Now, a slightly less romantic but more scientifically sound explanation has emerged - the brain experiences a surge of activity shortly before death.

The changes, which were observed in rats may go a long way to explaining the after effects. Even after the animals’ hearts stopped beating and no blood was reaching their brains, they appeared to show signs of conscious perception, said the scientists.

The study is the first to take a systematic look at the neurophysiological state of the dying brain after a cardiac arrest.

It suggests something happens at the brink of death that pushes the conscious brain to a high level of arousal, potentially triggering the visions and sensations associated with NDEs.

As many as a fifth of people who survive cardiac arrests report having had an other-worldly experience while being “clinically” dead.

Typically NDEs involve travelling through a tunnel towards an intense light, being separated from the body, encountering long-departed loved ones or angels and undergoing some kind of judgment of “life review”.

Some emerge from NDEs as transformed individuals with a completely altered outlook on life, or a new belief in religion.

But many scientists believe near-death-experiences are nothing more than hallucinations induced by the effect of the brain shutting down.

The new research involved recording the electrical nerve impulses of anaesthetised rats whose hearts were artificially stopped. Within 30 seconds after suffering a cardiac arrest, all the animals displayed a short-lived surge of widespread, highly synchronised brain activity.

“We were surprised by the high levels of activity,” said Dr George Mashour, one of the US researchers from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

Many people see an intense light

“In fact, at near-death many known electrical signatures of consciousness exceeded levels found in the waking state, suggesting that the brain is capable of well-organised electrical activity during the early stage of clinical death.”

The findings are reported in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Previously it was assumed that brain activity ceases when the heart stops.

“This study tells us that reduction of oxygen or both oxygen and glucose during cardiac arrest can stimulate brain activity that is characteristic of conscious processing,” said lead scientist Dr Jimo Borjigin, also from the University of Michigan.

“It also provides the first scientific framework for the near-death experiences reported by many cardiac arrest survivors.”

felixomor:


All information filled with "suggests" and "possibly" "maybe".
That says it all.
You dont use such information and base facts on it.
Coz they are unverified, even from the writer, he makes it clear that they are theories.
Bcoz NDEs vary in types and durations.
Please go and check the duration of time it takes for brain death to occur in brain cells after loss of blood supply and oxygen.
That alone will debunk all these.

felixomor:


All information filled with "suggests" and "possibly" "maybe".
That says it all.
You dont use such information and base facts on it.
Coz they are unverified, even from the writer, he makes it clear that they are theories.
Bcoz NDEs vary in types and durations.
Please go and check the duration of time it takes for brain death to occur in brain cells after loss of blood supply and oxygen.
That alone will debunk all these.

cloudgoddess:

No, scientists use words like that because unlike religions, they are concerned with maintaining room for more discoveries and thus avoid making claims with absolute certainty. They don't make gigantic bold assertions with no proof like religions do, they humbly present what the data & evidence point to. You will find this type of language in every scientific paper or journal.

And it's indeed true that every NDE is capable of being experienced solely by our minds. Just like dreams and hallucinations, NDEs are created by brain activity. No one has come back to report one after they have been fully dead for 24+ hours. NDEs come from people who's brains are still functioning.

felixomor:


You are always quoting wrong stuff.
I have said it before.
How can u say 'NDES come from peoople whose brains are still functioning'?
And yet you accuse religions of making bold assertions.

When people who have been certified dead before, came back reporting NDEs.
Moreover, there are occasions where science makes bold assertions. And they sometimes even go ahead to state absolute laws.

But clearly, this is not one of them.
Trying to say that the use of probability language in ur evidence is because of the nature of science.
Is not valid.
The use of probability language of chance, only says its not a clear basis for an argument.

Elohim1:

No one has come back to report one after they have been fully dead for 24+ hours

Thats The Key Point Deal With It!!

UyiIredia:


But is not observed as a physical process. Which is why I say consciousness is not physical.

UyiIredia:

What matters is that God caused consciousness to come about.

UyiIredia:

Conscious beings arise from conscious beings. So humans arise from a conscious being, God.

UyiIredia:

Believe what you will that doesn't make it true.

cloudgoddess:

No, scientists use words like that because unlike religions, they are concerned with maintaining room for more discoveries and thus avoid making claims with absolute certainty. They don't make gigantic bold assertions with no proof like religions do, they humbly present what the data & evidence point to. You will find this type of language in every scientific paper or journal.

And it's indeed supported that every NDE is capable of being experienced solely by our minds. Just like dreams and hallucinations and psychedelic drug trips, NDEs are created by brain activity. No one has come back to report one after they have been fully dead for 24+ hours. NDEs come from people who's brains are still functioning.

felixomor:


[s]That doesnt change the fact that u just quoted wrong stuff.
And then u just quoted another.
There are reported cases of people who came back even after being deposited in the mortuary, after death certification.
Whaaat? Plesase stop doing half research.

Please here is a quote from 'medlineplus'
Its well respected medical source and always up to date.
"Brain cells are extremely sensitive to oxygen, brain cells start dying less than 5 minutes after oxygen supply dissapears"

Really "24 hrs" indeed, i wonder why strangulated people die within minutes, if ur theories were really correct.
[/s]

Why Going Off Key?? Even then U still didn't make any sense

naijadeyhia:



Everytime you type assertions based on your scientific ignorance which you try to use to show scientific genius. I have asked you before to stop making damning statements that science does not support.

http://www.livescience.com/47096-theories-seek-to-explain-consciousness.html

Science yet does not know anything about consciousness. Stop deceiving yourself and people.

For Someone That Skipped The Link I Posted That Explained It

http://www.iep.utm.edu/consciou/

thehomer:


Observing something requires that what is being observed be physical.

thehomer:

How do you know this?

thehomer:

You've not actually demonstrated that your God exists. You need to show that your God exists before you can say that humans arose from him.

thehomer:

That's what I say about your God.

Elohim1:

Electrical signatures of consciousness
A University of Michigan animal study shows high electrical activity in the brain after clinical death
ANN ARBOR, Mich. -- The "near-death experience" reported by cardiac arrest survivors worldwide may be grounded in science, according to research at the University of Michigan Health System.

Whether and how the dying brain is capable of generating conscious activity has been vigorously debated.

But in this week’s PNAS Early Edition, a U-M study shows shortly after clinical death, in which the heart stops beating and blood stops flowing to the brain, rats display brain activity patterns characteristic of conscious perception.

“This study, performed in animals, is the first dealing with what happens to the neurophysiological state of the dying brain,” says lead study author Jimo Borjigin, Ph.D., associate professor of molecular and integrative physiology and associate professor of neurology at the University of Michigan Medical School.

“It will form the foundation for future human studies investigating mental experiences occurring in the dying brain, including seeing light during cardiac arrest,” she says.

Approximately 20 percent of cardiac arrest survivors report having had a near-death experience. These visions and perceptions have been called “realer than real,” according to previous research, but it remains unclear whether the brain is capable of such activity after cardiac arrest.

“We reasoned that if near-death experience stems from brain activity, neural correlates of consciousness should be identifiable in humans or animals even after the cessation of cerebral blood flow,” she says.

Researchers analyzed the recordings of brain activity called electroencephalograms (EEGs) from nine anesthetized rats undergoing experimentally induced cardiac arrest.

Within the first 30 seconds after cardiac arrest, all of the rats displayed a widespread, transient surge of highly synchronized brain activity that had features associated with a highly aroused brain.

Furthermore, the authors observed nearly identical patterns in the dying brains of rats undergoing asphyxiation.

“The prediction that we would find some signs of conscious activity in the brain during cardiac arrest was confirmed with the data,” says Borjigin, who conceived the idea for the project in 2007 with study co-author neurologist Michael M. Wang, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of neurology and associate professor of molecular and integrative physiology at the U-M.

“But, we were surprised by the high levels of activity,” adds study senior author anesthesiologist George Mashour, M.D., Ph.D., assistant professor of anesthesiology and neurosurgery at the U-M. “ In fact, at near-death, many known electrical signatures of consciousness exceeded levels found in the waking state, suggesting that the brain is capable of well-organized electrical activity during the early stage of clinical death.­­­”

The brain is assumed to be inactive during cardiac arrest. However the neurophysiological state of the brain immediately following cardiac arrest had not been systemically investigated until now.

The current study resulted from collaboration between the labs of Borjigin and Mashour, with U-M physicist UnCheol Lee, Ph.D., playing a critical role in analysis.

“This study tells us that reduction of oxygen or both oxygen and glucose during cardiac arrest can stimulate brain activity that is characteristic of conscious processing,” says Borjigin. “It also provides the first scientific framework for the near-death experiences reported by many cardiac arrest survivors.”

felixomor:


Lolllz
That awesome moment when somebody thinks he has made an argument by copy and pasting the result of an unfinished EXPERIMENT ON RAT BRAIN to explain what happens in HUMAN BRAIN, supposedly.

Please even a kindergatten kid could tell 5 differences between rat brain and human brain without using google.
Whaaaaat?
These guys can go any length.

Moreover, the experiment didnt even produce outcome. I guess they used rat because, afterall, rat cant testify of the experience after death. Why didnt they use human brain.

I dont want to laugh so hard.
All I can say is do research before plagiarizing.

UyiIredia:


This doesn't apply when something (ie consciousness) is doing the observing.

UyiIredia:

I already stated why in my former argument. Conscious beings come from conscious beings remember.

UyiIredia:

I can't physically demonstrate God because God is not a physical being. But I can provide arguments that show that God exists without a shadow of doubt. The argument from consciousness is the most powerful arguments that indubitably proves there is a God. The next most powerful argument is the argument from design in life.

UyiIredia:

I first said it of your atheism.

Elohim1:

Would U Like Them To Use Ur Brain Instead??

Elohim1:

I asked A Simple Question N U Deside To Display Ur Stuuduty

thehomer:


That's a rubbish rule you just made up.

thehomer:

Which conscious being did your God come from? Can give you a hint. Humans.

thehomer:

Having lots of bad arguments doesn't somehow make them good arguments. Your so-called argument from consciousness has already failed and the theory of evolution neatly explains why living organisms appear designed.

thehomer:

Still what I say about your God.

felixomor:


Stupidity is when u attempt to use rat brain to explain what u cant even prove to be happening in human brain.
Thats the real stupidity.

Real Stupidity Is When U Can Donate Ur Brain For The Experiment Real Stolidity Is When U Don't Understand The Goal Of The Experiment It Doesn't Matter If U Use Rat Brain Or Human Brain The Reason They Use Rat Is Because We Humans Shear Almost 60% Of Our DNA With Rats!!

Elohim1:

Real Stupidity Is When U Can Donate Ur Brain For The Experiment Real Stolidity Is When U Don't Understand The Goal Of The Experiment It Doesn't Matter If U Use Rat Brain Or Human Brain The Reason They Use Rat Is Because We Humans Shear Almost 60% Of Our DNA With Rats!!

UyiIredia:


It isnt. Do you observe consciousness or observe via consciousness ? Only one answer is correct.

UyiIredia:

You are not serious. God is uncaused.

UyiIredia:

As I always say the theory of evolution is a failed theory. BTW my consciousness argument hasn't failed. The only failed thing is your ability to reason.

UyiIredia:

Meh. Suit yourself.

thehomer:


We observe consciousness and perceive with consciousness.

thehomer:

Then that premise fails.

thehomer:

You've said a lot of ignorant things and this is just one along those lines. I showed you how it failed above.

thehomer:

I will.

UyiIredia:


We don't observe consciousness as a physical process. I told you only one answer could be correct. We observe/percieve via consciousness.

UyiIredia:

How so ?

UyiIredia:

The only one spouting ignorant nonsense here is you. You have failed to show anything. There's nothing you've said to which a sufficient rebuttal hasn't been given.

UyiIredia:

Suit yourself in your stupïdity then. You like it.

thehomer:


You told me something wrong and I've pointed that out. We do observe consciousness as a physical process.

thehomer:

The fact that for that premise to work, your God needs to have come from a concsious entity. So, which conscious entity did your God come from?

thehomer:

Then show what is wrong with the theory of evolution and win your Nobel Prize.

thehomer:

This is why you'll remain a child. Your childish behaviour and thinking can't help but manifest itself.

UyiIredia:


What physical process ?

UyiIredia:

God is uncaused as a non-contingent conscious entity so his consciousness need not be explained.

UyiIredia:

There's no known observable natural process by which one can add new genetic information to an organism's genetic code. And you need to do that if you want to men from apes, or fishes from bacteria.

UyiIredia:

I don't take the words of a bumbling, imbecilic fool seriously.

thehomer:


Neurones firing.

thehomer:

Therefore, not all conscious entities come from other conscious entities. Now, how do you know your God actually exists and is this uncaused entity? Did he tell you?

thehomer:

Natural selection is such a natural process. If you disagree, do your research and go for your Nobel Prize.

thehomer:

And this is why you remain a foolish child trying to take on topics beyond your ken. Don't worry, I forgive your insolence ignorant child.