M14A1:

Combat maneuvers yes!!! But speed dumping maneuvers in a multi bogey theatre?
Axial thrust pushes the jet (and wing) through the air at a speed required to maintain lift. Take away forward thrust, take away speed and lift. Go back to the video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2dgi2NhMSw

What's happening? The Flanker is dropping like a rock at slow speed (no lift is being produced by the wing). If the Flanker pilot does not kill me now, the other edge of the sword is about to fall. He's automatically building in vertical turning room for me and it's going to take an unacceptable amount of time for him to get enough smash back to take it away due to his low airspeed. If I'm still alive I'm turning him into a strafe rag.

There's are time for thrust vectoring and a time to leave it in the bag, with the latter always being the 1st choice.



by the way where is Chinese?? Haven't seen his post on this thread for a while now

chinese8107:


only Russian plane emphasizes the supper maneuverablity eg Su30 series , most western plane can not do like pugachev's cobra.As western plane have better BVR missle and brobably better rader,they don't have big chance to have close combat.

nemesis2u:
[img]http://www.defencenews.in/images_articles/1_img1261215122146.jpg[/img]

finally the MMRCA saga comes to an end

The much-anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets will be signed on September 23 as both India and France have finalized the details for the deal, which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.

rough breakage of Euro 7.87 billion should be

1.Basic Aircraft package ~ Euro 2.7 Billion
2.Weapon package cost~ Euro 0.70 Billion includes meteors, scalp and mica +others
3.Financial package comprising of Cost escalation + milestone payments + other conditions ~Euro 0.5 Billion
4.Logistics support package for high performance availability and spares ~ Euro 0.35 Billion
5.Engineering Support package + Basic infrastructure support package for operations ~Euro 1.8 Billion
6.Customization package including high altitude performance package, hot weather performance package, Indian weapons, required thrust, India specific Training, Simulators for local language, etc etc ~Euro 1.8 Billion

Following intervention by Prime Minister Modi late last year, France agreed for a 50 per cent offset clause. This means creating business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

some of the offsets include (according to my sources)
1.16 high technology aerospace related transfer
2.consultancy for SSN nuclear reactor
3.consultancy and transfer of SSN tech. derived from barracuda for implementation on customized Indian built Yasen-M class SSN but Russians insisting on Akula SSN, still negotiations r on.
4.consultancy for fine tuning nuclear command and control protocol and related tech. etc for operational arihant class SSBN.
5.access to megajoule for thermonuclear stimulation and scaling up of existing thermonuclear bomb design
etc

also if french completes the offsets as per agreement then under MII india might end up with 90+54 or more additional rafales for air force and navy.

most importantly india maybe allowed access to megajoules facility nobody will ever confirm that officially or unofficially.

a funny aspect of this deal..................
the last sticking point of negotiation was India seeking discount of 1,50,000 Euros
LOL taking about HARDCORE bargaining
the french must have almost decided to give up the rafales for free, when the Indians decided enough is enough

giles14:
in other word India is saying bye bye to Russia.

but Russia never forgives so India watch ur backs

andrewza:


India has been burned to many times by deals with Russia I think they just had enough.

andrewza:


India has been burned to many times by deals with Russia I think they just had enough.

giles14:
in other word India is saying bye bye to Russia.

but Russia never forgives so India watch ur backs

giles14:
so u are saying d west will treat India better .well I wish d Indians d best of luck

chinese8107:


I don't think so. they still have deals like su30 upgrades or Su-35, T-50, S-400,raders, missles,ect.

andrewza:


yeah T-50 is a years away and may never appear.

chinese8107:
US plane like F-22 can not do pugachev cobra because their combat tactic is different from Russia.They emphasizes on stealth than supper manueverablity,they emphasize the "first sight first fire."

tdayof:


Really? Check again. The f22 can do the pugachev even the 360

chinese8107:

any video or reliable source?

nemesis2u:


https://in.rbth.com/news/2016/09/15/india-russia-to-close-multi-billion-dollar-defence-deals-before-summit_630169

tdayof:


Really? Check again. The f22 can do the pugachev even the 360

andrewza:



T50 is still a very long way off if ever it is built.

nemesis2u:


yes ur correct,
i forgot to mention it

tdayof:
Can someone explain this?

nemesis2u:



in reply to the above statement of yours , i wish to tell u the following story to show u why u ended up making the wrong conclusion ,

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

i hope u now understand why u erred (u took into account the tip of the iceberg , never saw the whole picture )
...........................................................................................


india russia relationship r not easily dismissed as some of u r doing

as a analyst the first thing u will be taught is to look for small things which relate inconspicuously to bigger things.

putin is going to vist india in october , and his envoy is in india now to firm up defense and economic deals.

russia has its fingers on est. 80 billion + dollars in india
russia is transferring either yasen or akula TOT for make in india why ?
russia transfering critical tech in nuclear , missile and other fields why ?

because it considers India as a strategic partner now and in the future.


india was the country which helped russia in the difficult times during 90s when it did not have money to buy essential items , india bought billions of dollars of equipments when no other country was willing to buy russian equipment , indian money helped russian defence industry get on its feet initially and drive the various defence development programs which are so successful now, something which the russians themselves acknowledge .

all these putin remembers very well and there for russia will never forget
problems and bottlenecks are there and will always be there but they will always be negotiated mutually to each others satisfaction.

giles14:
https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/

giles14:
agreed but let India trade with caution,ur alliance with d west will in few years to come put u in direct confrontation with Russia.

don't forget if not for Russia d USA n Pakistan will be occupying India by now