ttalks:

The pharaoh situation which u explained is based on how u feel it ought to be and not how the bible says it is.
We know what happened during the old testament; what the new testament says about what happened is what we take cos the apostles said it as thus.
If Paul says it was God that hardened Pharaoh's heart, then that is what happened.

I believe the apostles were given access to the true meanings of stuff that happened during the old testament and that their explanations of them are what is supposed to be.

    I can't believe you actually typed the above.

It seems in an effort to argue your position as credible you're venturing into the absurd. Scripture does not contradict scripture. Romans says God hardened his heart, Exodus says Pharaoh did it - you're saying we take the Romans version and ignore Exodus because the "Apostles were given access to the true meaning"? Moses who recounted the [b]actual events [/b]did not have access to the "true meaning"? 

So by your rationale, Paul's word is superior and takes precedence over Moses? is it not all God's word? isn't it God who wrote the bible? why would God contradict Himself? Please I kindly ask you soberly reflect and re-think your position.

I will refrain from responding to the rest of your post for now until we iron out the above creases that are at the heart of this entire thread.

^^^There are those that are too stubborn to see from another point of view and too proud to accept their mistakes. You better leave him and his rantings. One day he'll definitely come to his senses

JeSoul:

    I can't believe you actually typed the above.

It seems in an effort to argue your position as credible you're venturing into the absurd. Scripture does not contradict scripture. Romans says God hardened his heart, Exodus says Pharaoh did it - you're saying we take the Romans version and ignore Exodus because the "Apostles were given access to the true meaning"? Moses who recounted the actual events [/b]did not have access to the "true meaning"? 

So by your rationale, Paul's word is superior and takes precedence over Moses? is it not all God's word? isn't it God who wrote the bible? why would God contradict Himself? Please I kindly ask you soberly reflect and re-think your position.

I will refrain from responding to the rest of your post for now until we iron out the above creases that are at the heart of this entire thread.

Jesoul, my point(s) aren't absurd.
If u aren't ready to accept the fact that what Paul said was the case, how about what Moses said(or wrote for us to read):

Exo 4:21
(21)  And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: [b]but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exo 7:1-3
(1)  And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
(2)  Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
(3)  And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:13
(13)  And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now, how absurd are my points? 


Pharaoh's hardening of his heart in the chapter 8 which u spoke about was just the result of God's hardening of it.

^^^ mischeivious.
I accept[b] both Moses and Paul's versions as truth[/b] and explained in detail why.

You brushed aside Exodus 8 insinuating the NT version is superior to the OT, essentially saying "Paul had access to the true meaning and not Moses" - that don't sound absurd to you? Isn't this your position?

JeSoul:

^^^ mischeivious.
I accept[b] both Moses and Paul's versions as truth[/b] and explained in detail why.

You brushed aside Exodus 8 insinuating the NT version is superior to the OT, essentially saying "Paul had access to the true meaning and not Moses" - that don't sound absurd to you? Isn't this your position?

When i said Paul had access to the true meaning of the old testament stuff, that wasn't to discredit Moses. It was to discredit those of us that do not understand what happened during the old testament.

I never brushed aside Exodus 8. I only did not bother to speak on it because it was simply a result of all i have been saying: That God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Chapter 8 was simply a response to what God did to his heart.

My points so far has been that God hardened his heart and that is the primary issue here; Pharaoh's response is secondary since it was just a result of God's work on him.

^^^ You haven't said anything new and are constantly shifting the proverbial goalpost. And at this point, I'm taking LightWalks advice and throwing in the towel.

JeSoul:

^^^ You haven't said anything new and are constantly shifting the proverbial goalpost. And at this point, I'm taking LightWalks advice and throwing in the towel.

No problem. I expected this would happen some time.

The problem is: most of us have been so ingrained with the belief that our wills are our own entirely. it's so hard for us to acknowledge the glaring facts that our wills are the result of what God does and not what we of our own could decide they would be.

Even when presented with glaring facts that should debunk our default positions of believing our wills are free, our default response is to still remain adamant.
It takes a while but if we decide to trust and believe what God's word says and not read our own meanings(based on what we feel should be)into it, we'll find ourselves acknowledging the truth.

Pharaoh's example is a clear cut situation that shows that God determines our wills. Pharaoh hardened his heart because it was what God wanted him to do.
Paul knew this and acknowledged that fact in Romans.
But majority of Christian adherents today find this impossible to take in.
It isn't surprising. such is the case with so many other aspects of this our Christian faith that so many aren't even aware of today.

Well, with so much resistance to the fact that we do not possess free wills, it would be nice to hear from other Christians who also know that we definitely do not possess any free will.

Any such persons on nairaland?
I think I know a few, but I'd rather let them say so themselves.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

-- Colossians 2:8

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. -- John 3:19-20

The same sunlight that melts candles also hardens clay. As God's light shines on man, the sinner's heart determines his response. One whose heart is tender will respond to God, one whose heart is bent on evil will harden his heart further against God and will remain in darkness. Sinners should note: After Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his heart against God (Exodus 8:15,32), God then hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 10:27). Those who continualllly reject God will be given up to "uncleanness, vile affections, and a reprobate mind" (Romans 1:24,26,28).

OLAADEGBU:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. -- John 3:19-20

The same sunlight that melts candles also hardens clay. As God's light shines on man, the sinner's heart determines his response. One whose heart is tender will respond to God, one whose heart is bent on evil will harden his heart further against God and will remain in darkness. Sinners should note: After Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his heart against God (Exodus 8:15,32), God then hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 10:27). Those who continualllly reject God will be given up to "uncleanness, vile affections, and a reprobate mind" (Romans 1:24,26,28).

It's like u do not like to look at the truth even when presented before u.
Pharaoh hardened his heart because God wanted him to.

It was never because Pharaoh hardened his heart that God hardened it more(can u see how absurd ur claims are?).

Exo 4:21
(21) And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exo 7:1-3
(1) And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
(2) Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
(3) And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:13
(13) And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now where did u see that it was because Pharaoh hardened his heart that God hardened it?

God had a plan and purpose and he hardened Pharaoh's heart for that purpose to take effect.

The Chapter 8 u keep building ur phantom theory upon was a result of what God had done and not what Pharaoh had done.

Some people are just too scared to accept the fact that their destiny/life is not in the total control of their hands.
Can't they realize that without God they would not even exist in the first place?
it's now a problem to accept the fact that he determines how our lives are to play out?

It's never and has never and will never be how we determine that this our lives will play out; it is as God determines.

Rom 9:16(KJV)
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:16(ISV)
(16) Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy.

Rom 9:16(CEV)
(16) Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do.

Rom 9:16(BBE)
(16) So then, it is not by the desire or by the attempt of man, but by the mercy of God.

freewill is a point from the bible and need to be thought to people who does not really understand it.
Freewill has been bestowed to man from the beginning of the world. God has given man the capacity to make a decision of his but still made know to man the required ethics of living a moral and spiritual life. Adam and eve was given the freewill to make a decision of theirs. Their wrong decision resulted in their been expelled  from the garden of Eden. The truth is that freewill is a delusion,it is not a reality for if it be then there should be no such as the judgment of God. But God has already declared and does not deny the fact that He is the creator of both light and darkness. He said in His word. Though i am the creator of both light and darkness, good and bad, but i urge you to walk in the light for the reward of working in darkness is destruction. It is your decision on earth that would be used to determine where u shall be on the last day. God does not forces anybody to serve Him but He still demand it.
FREEWILL IS NOT A REALITY, IT IS DELUSIONAL BECAUSE IT ONLY ENDS IN THIS EARTH. NO FREEWILL IN HEAVEN.

The moment we begin to regard the Bible as a whole it is only then that it begins to take on a new meaning. The Old Testament is preparatory to the New Testament. The NT cannot be understood apart from the OT, neither can the OT be appreciated apart from the NT.

"Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens" -- Romans 9:18

God hardens on the same grounds of showing mercy. If men will accept mercy He will give it to them. If they will not, thus hardening themselves He is only just and righteous in judging them. We are privileged to humble ourselves and seek mercy or exalt ourselves and refuse mercy. Mercy is the effect of a right attitude, and hardening is the effect of stubborness toward God. It is like the wax and the clay in the sun. The same sunshine softens one and hardens the other. The responsibility is with the materials, not with the sun. Human beings are more responsible than these materials, because they have wills to make proper choices. The only sense in which God hardened Pharaoh was in giving him the occasion to harden his own heart or obey. Such is the choice all of us have to make (See 2 Cor. 2:15-17).