KunleOshob:

For now i would not give personal opinions or comments rather i would implore Noetic to explain these scriptures to me. he evaded them on a previous thread so i would repeat them here. His explaination of these scriptures would then elicit further comments from me.

Revelation 20:11-13:
The Final Judgment  
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Deep Sight:

I verily believe that his commandments to believe in him, thus referred to obeying his commandment of Love, and nothing more. I can state this because he himself described what it entails to believe in him. HE said - "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." Thus a Mahatma Ghandi (a hindu)who goes through life spreading love and peace and brotherhood, already has "Christ" in him, much more than any person who proclaims belief in Christ, without those acts of love.

KunleOshob:

I am quite aware of the above passage and i never discounted it, what i was just trying to make Noetic see were other scriptures that said something that seemed contrary and i asked him to explain it if he truly understood what he believed in, up till now he has not been able to offer any explaination. He has chosen to remain in the dogmatic box his church has put him in instead of exploring other biblical truths on the issue. I don't claim to know it all, so i am open to knowledge, but i am not open to accept something just becos that is the aspect of the bible my pastor would rather preach to me when i see cntradicting evidence i would insist on clarification.

m_nwankwo:

My view is that the  personal recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God is the highest recognition that can be granted to a human spirit. Such a recognition does not come about by hearing or reading about Jesus although hearing or reading about it can serve as spiritual trigger enabling such a blessed one on a journey that will culminate in the recognition of Jesus as the son of God. Genuine love does not just came from anywhere rather genuine love is one of the emanations or rather radiations coming form Jesus, who in my own recognition is the living personification of Divine Love. This love which comes from Jesus is available to all human beings and all creatures who have the yearning for the Truth. Thus the spiritual desire to recognise the Truth and serve God automatically opens ones spirit to the vibrations of love coming from Jesus. As a human being keep absorbing and using this love, he is getting closer and closer to the source of this Love (Jesus) until finally either here on earth or hereafter after in worlds beyound, the personal recognition of HIM (Jesus Christ) in whose love he or she has been experiencing will come to such a one. For one who has absorbed the emanations of genuine Love from Jesus, love for God, his fellow mwn and all creatures is then his nature. Thus such a one practices genuine love withouth effort for the incomprehesible power of love that emanates from Jesus carries him onward just like a swimmer that swims in sync with the ocean current. If you tune into the frequency of genuine love, you are tuned in to Jesus even if at the initial and intermediate stages of spiritual development, such a one may only be aware of the love that he is experiencing but not the source of the love. If he stay tuned without switching off, he or she will one day come to the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God. No man will ever enter heaven without this recognition. Imagine that the recognition of Jesus Christ is at the summit of a mountain. Individuals who have more or less absorbed the love of God but have not come to the personal recognition of this source of genuine love have left the bottom of the mountain and are on their way to the top of the mountain and will finally reach the summit if they keep absorbing and using the power of God. At the summit, they will find the crown of their longing, the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God.

Meanwhile, there is a tree at the foot of the mountain and many instead of climbing the mountain decided to climp the tree and from the top of the tree, they smile at those who slowly but surely are climbing the mountain. They claim that from the top of the tree that they have a glimpse of the summit of the mountain. But unkonwn to them, the crown at the top of the mountain can only be bestowed on those who climbed the mountain and not to millions who want a short cut by climbing the tree. The gulf betwwen the tree and the mountain cannot be crossed and those who made attempt fall to the ground breaking their legs and even there neck. As he groans in agony from the fall, some people who he  laughed at when he was on top of the tree have already reached the mountain and have been bestowed with the crown.

If Mahatma Ghandi or Dala Lama or any person form any culture, religion or tradition are practicing genuine love, they are like those who are climbing the mountain and their  souls will one day recognise Jesus Christ as the son of God. Millions who have heard or read about Jesus but are not living according to the love that emanates from Jesus Christ are the people on top of the tree at the foot of the mountain. There is still time for them to come down from their precarious perch to the foot of the mountain and begin to climb the mountain. Very soon the tree at the foot of the mountain will collapse and they will break their legs and necks making a subsequent climbing of the mountain impossible. Thus the crown which they erroneously imagined that it is their birth right will be denied them.


Thus there can be no genuine love without Jesus Christ and no Jesus Christ without genuine love. The spiritual journey of all human beings does not just consit of one earthlife. This  present earthlife is just a very small snapshort of ones spiritual history. I hope that someday, some of the discussants may be blessed with the opportunity to see the soul  of Mahatma Ghandi and they should ask him who Jesus is. The answer will come as a rude shock.

noetic15:


b. Jesus also asserted that He is God.

Deep Sight:

I will give you $1 Million of my own money if you can point out a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself stated that he was God.

noetic15:


# To claim to love God. . .without recognising Jesus as that God. . .is as good as loving a false god like allah.

mazaje:

@Deep Sight

I want to know exactly why you choose the Jewish/Christian god as evidence for your nameless god. . . .

noetic15:

open a new thread. . . . I will gladly educate u there.

KunleOshob:

My brother, i am not a dogmatic christian the truth is that there are perceived contradictions in the scripture that is supposed to be "inerrant" as a seeker of the truth i would like to keep an open mind and not just stick to any particular belief becos it is the generally accepted belief. i am a berean christian as such i seek to verify all truths. Forums like this are a good opportunity to learn diverse opinions on topics and as such form an informed opinion. However the way my mind is working given the perceived contradictions is either of two things:
[1] Translation errors
[2] Deliberate stretching of the truth by biblical authors due to their over zealousness in the preaching of the gospel. This stretching of the truth constantly happens in our churches today for various reasons.

noetic15:

1. The above might sound reasonable but it CANNOT be reconciled with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The sonship of Jesus (if believed by anyone) should be held side by side with His salvation on the cross. They CANNOT be separated.

2. I understand from your post on other threads that u have continued to mistake the xtian love for the common love as seen in other religion and the world outside Christ. The love that Christ preached is centred around God. The God subject in this case is pertinent to the divinity of Jesus. The core message of Jesus is the death on the cross, salvation, sonship, resurrection and promise of eternity.
The deduction is this. . . . .
a. Jesus stated clearly that the love of God and one's neighbour are the greatest commandment. The love of God is simply having no other god/deity before/beside God.
b. Jesus also asserted that He is God. He came to offer His salvation from eternal damnation on the cross of calvary.
c. Jesus also stated that those who believe in him/his message are saved from eternal damnation.
d. Those who accept the Lordship and salvation of Jesus are led by the spirit to live the God-like life of LOVE.

Now let us put the above in the same light as your analyses:
# The genuine love like u stated is completely different from the love Jesus taught. The love of Christ is centred around Christ. It involves accepting the salvation of Jesus Christ, being led by his spirit and living his life of love.
# To claim to love God. . .without recognising Jesus as that God. . .is as good as loving a false god like allah.
# Ghandi or anyone CANNOT claim to love God without knowing God.

# many (pastor AIO, kunleOshob and Deepsight) have assumed that Christ's gospel was simply a gospel of love outside of the WORSHIP of God. This is FALSE.
I will assert this using the "Good samaritan parable" of Jesus found in Luke 10: 30-37

In that parable 3 men saw a wounded man on the road. one was a priest, the other a levite and the third a samaritan.  
why did the priest and levite not stop? did they move on out of hate or lack of compassion? was their "inaction" a sin to God?

FYI: The priest and levite did NOT stop simply because by offering help to the wounded man. . they would have touched blood. by touching blood, the priest and levite would become unclean. by becoming unclean they would both be excommunicated and unable to perform their functions in the synagouge. If the priest ever enters the holiest of the holiest after helping the wounded man. . .he would have died and be brought out dead.
So why did they both not stop?. . . . . they both did not stop simply because they wanted to be holy, they wanted to please God.

If u read verse 27: Jesus was clear. . . that the very first thing is to LOVE God before loving your neighbour. u CANNOT love buddha or allah and then love your neighbour. that love is UNACCEPTABLE to God (Jesus).
Submissively . . . . .the route to the acceptance of anyone's sacrifice of LOVE is the acknowledgement of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

m_nwankwo:

A crude analogy may suffice. Imagine a person who has a deep longing to become a Professor of Molecular Biology. As a primary school kid he does not know what molecular biology or professor is all about but is very much fascinated by animals, insects and numbers. While other kids are playing pranks, he is busy trying to find out why a planted seed grows, why  their are patterns on  butterfly wings etc. This fascination with nature and how it works in reciprocity programs his brain to understand biological structures. In his first biology class in high school, he was so fascinated as he piped through a section of a living cell in a light microscope. He was so overwhelmed by this experience  that he does not want to let go off the microscope until the instructor forcibly removed him from pipping into the magic class. It was not surprising that in high school, he graduated with top grades in mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. At this point he is beginning to have a faint idea of what molecular biology is but lacks understanding of what it means to be  a Professor. But unknown to him, his fascination with nature and biology have sown the seed that will germinate and in 25 years time will ripen as a professor of Molecular Biology. A superficial observer will not be able to see the professor in the kid when he was in high school, undergrad or even in his graduate school. But a deeper look will show that the seed was sown as the child gallivanted about trying to fathom how a maggot turns to a housefly. Meanwhile another kid have no interest in biology or nature but is the son of a professor of molecular biology. Because he regularly hears about DNA, sequencing, cloning, PCR etc from his dad, he soon imagines that he is a molecular biologist. But you do not become a molecular biologist by being the son of one but you become one by acquiring the requisite skills and training. What takes a decade or more post first degree with respect to this crude analogy may take few earthly years to millions of earthly years for the spiritual recognition of Jesus as the redeemer and son of God. If you sow yam, you reap yam and it does not matter if you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, an Agnostic, a deist etc. The obedience to the will of God lies in the sowing of the yam and not on the toga of religion. Love is love whether from a christian or a buddhist. Lies are lies whether it is from an agnostic or deist. The eternal law of God has intrinsically made yam to be yam. Thus if you want to rip corn, then sow corn but you will be wasting your time if you want corn and sow yam. You can gather all the prayer warriors on earth to change the yam to corn and it will not change. It is a mockery of divine justice to say that genuine love sown by those whose religious persuasions are different from us is not the true love that Jesus brought.

Abuzola:

'verily, it is of their falsehood that they say God has begotten ? And verily they are liars' Quran 37:151-152

noetic15:

Let me personalise it.

A. Do u (kunle) believe that Jesus died and rose? Yes i do.
B. Do u (kunle) believe that (A) is the basis and centre of Jesus mission on earth? No, his primary mission on earth is to teach the truth of God's will and love to mankind.
C. Do u (kunle) believe that without believing in event (A), one can make heaven? Belief in event (A) is not taught as a condition to mak heaven anywhere in the bible.
D. Do u (kunle) believe in the salvation of Jesus? I do believe in the salvation of Jesus, but the problem is that your understanding of the salvation concept of Jesus gospel is different from mine. Belief in Jesus is belief and obeying his teachings/commandments which goes deeper than the shallow belief that he just came and died. This is very clear from the scriptures, however the church has obscured to true meaning of salvation. You nee to open your mind read the scriptures again from scratch and let the holy spirit feed your spirit whilst you divorce your mind from popular pulpit gibberish.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Man, i am thoroughly amazed at your limited reading of scripture, but more at your world view.

Its ok, i think our world-views are so drastically different that we may never convince each other.

I wonder what you think will happen to children or adolescents in this regard.

How can you fail to see how your dogma would sound to a person of a different culture.

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

Gosh.

I just cant believe how any rational person could believe this in the first place.

And worse still, believe that if others do not accept it as he has, then such others are damned, regardless of the purity of their hearts, the goodness of their ways, the humilty of their minds, or the peace and love they giv ethe world.

Let me ask you how belief in a fact, would validate or invalidate that fact? How belief in a fact, would change the state of a pure or evil soul. A good man who disbelieves it does not cease to be good, any more than an evil man who believes it will cease to be evil. I am surprised the essence of M_Nwankwo's example of the Child - Professor is lost on you. Cant you see that one can already be something without recognising it? Did we not give you the verse where Jesus said he would welcome people to his kingdom who did not even know that they were serving him?

How can you say these things Noetic? Dont you realise how awfully narrow-minded you are beginning to sound? ? ?

Go and read the beatitudes again.  -

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

[size=16pt]Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God. [/size]

[size=16pt]Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God. [/size]

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Look at the highlighted parts again. What do they tell you Noetic?

Where does it say here that one needs to know or even believe in any death? And this was his most succinct and in-depth statement on salvation.

Gosh, Noetic - CANT YOU SEE IT? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Deep Sight:


I verily believe that his commandments to believe in him, thus referred to obeying his commandment of Love, and nothing more. I can state this because he himself described what it entails to believe in him. HE said - "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." Thus a Mahatma Ghandi (a hindu)who goes through life spreading love and peace and brotherhood, already has "Christ" in him, much more than any person who proclaims belief in Christ, without those acts of love.

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, WHICH WAS, AND IS , AND IS TO COME." (Revelation 4:6-

"And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

Deep Sight:

Above, i already showed you what believing in him is all about.

Deep Sight:

Noetic - Who's being irrational, me, or someone who declares Mahatma Ghandi damned on account of the dogma below:

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

Deep Sight:

Noetic - In addittion to all this, you are willing to assert that the Beatitudes were lies.

I am amazed that in order to support man-made dogma, you are willing to declare that Jesus was telling lies when he mouthed the beatitudes?

Because if he was not telling lies, then -

"Blessed are the Peace Makers, for they shall be called Children of God"

Defintely qualifies Mahatma Ghandi, beyond any human being living or dead, to be called a Child of God.