lexiconkabir:


I will take the advice of the brother that asked me drop the issue, when you've checked the citation of the books of Albanee, fawzaan, ibn uthaymeen, ibn katheer and Abdul-Muhsin that was given in the other thread, then you can come back, the links you brought just talked about bidah in general, just as how i did in the op, anyway check those books, no more argument on my part, or better still check this shaykh Munajid site https://islamqa.info/en/10843 in there he gave quotation from ibn uthaymeen.....


Enjoy!


Cc: udatso, I think you should leave him alone

lexiconkabir:


The thread is about bidah and not hizbi, if you have any reasonable contribution pls do.

suledes:



Especially in this society of ours, there are various Aqeedah which if one does not use his iniative vey well (Qiyas), he will be misled.

I read a news this afternoon on Newsrescue website that the Imam of Jamatul Izala al-Bidi'a Wa Iqama Sunna castigated, and maledicted Sayidina Aliy (rta), and the shia sects.



That Imam had contradicted the admonition of Rasulullah which Umm Salamah said that noboby should insult Aliy, and anybody that did that had insulted him.


Those follower of that Imam would be misled by his aqeedah. Therefore we have to be very careful in master of Islam concerning Bidi'a.

[b] " He is jealous of his uncle's son, since prophet is the son of his uncle. Its known that jealousy is more common between cousins. That is why Ali (R.d) has been trying to invalided his Islam since the time of the prophet (Pbum) and during the caliphate of the 3 other companions.
He has given his support in the murder of the third caliph (USMAN R.D).
He has add fuel to fire that resulted in the death of many companions just because of jealousy and hatred to the prophet (PBUM). He is hypocrite in the mixed of hypocrites. That is why among the caliphs: none of their followers claims God-ship except the followers of Ali (R.d). He is hypocrite that hides his hypocrisy. His religion is Taqiya (Saying lie that is contrary to what is in your heart). This is the reason Badniyya and Shi'a Isma'iliyya and Ubaidiyya claims to be his followers, because he taught them hypocrisy.

Are you understanding my point? Now you're speaking to them (Shi'a) in Nawasid tongue. Because We Ahlus Sunnah believes Ali (R.D) is a good person. Them (Shi'a) have no shame at your presence they will curse Abubakar (R.d) and other companions (R.d).

Use five minute and borrow their tongue of Nawasid to teach them a lesson. You should call and provoke them that Ali (R.d) have no Iman. ..." [/b]

gearcoin:


I can't just laughing!

Ibn ithaymeen doesnt categorise bidiah

See the full text of Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 291 below :

Definition of Bid’ah And How to Give Dawah To Others – Shaykh Ibn Utjaymeen


Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

“According to Sharee’ah, the definition is ‘Worshipping Allah in ways that Allah has not prescribed.’ If you wish, you may say, ‘Worshipping Allah in ways that are not those of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or his rightly guided successors (al-khulafaa’ al-raashidoon).’

The first definition is taken from the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or have they partners with Allah (false gods) who have instituted for them a religion which Allaah has not ordained?”

42:21]

The second definition is taken from the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), who said:

“I urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold fast to it and bite onto it with your molar teeth [i.e., cling firmly to it], and beware of newly-invented matters.”

So everyone who worships Allah in a manner that Allah has not prescribed or in a manner that is not in accordance with the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or his rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon), is an innovator, whether that innovated worship has to do with the names and attributes of Allah, or to do with His rulings and laws.

With regard to ordinary matters of habit and custom, these are not called bid’ah (innovation) in Islam, even though they may be described as such in linguistic terms. But they are not innovations in the religious sense, and these are not the things that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was warning us against.

And there is no such thing in Islam as bid’ah hasanah (good innovation).”

From: Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 291


Pls from where above does he categorise bidiah ?

suledes:



Especially in this society of ours, there are various Aqeedah which if one does not use his iniative vey well (Qiyas), he will be misled.

I read a news this afternoon on Newsrescue website that the Imam of Jamatul Izala al-Bidi'a Wa Iqama Sunna castigated, and maledicted Sayidina Aliy (rta), and the shia sects.



That Imam had contradicted the admonition of Rasulullah which Umm Salamah said that noboby should insult Aliy, and anybody that did that had insulted him.


Those follower of that Imam would be misled by his aqeedah. Therefore we have to be very careful in master of Islam concerning Bidi'a.

you are very dishonest, here is the fatwa from the webpage;

If you ask, how should we deal with those who commit bid’ah?

The answer is:

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “In both cases, we have to call these people – who claim to be Muslim but who commit acts of bid’ah which may constitute kufr or may be less than that – to the truth, by explaining the truth without being hostile or condemning what they are doing. But once we know that they are too arrogant to accept the truth – for Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning), ‘And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge.’ [al-An’aam 6:108] – if we find out that they are stubborn and arrogant, then we should point out their falsehood, because then pointing out their falsehood becomes an obligation upon us.

With regard to boycotting them, that depends upon the bid’ah. If it is a bid’ah which constitutes kufr, then it is obligatory to boycott the person who does it. If it is of a lesser degree than that, then it is essential to examine the situation further. If something may be achieved by boycotting the person, then we do it; if no purpose will be served by it, or if it will only make him more disobedient and arrogant, then we should avoid doing that, because whatever serves no purpose, it is better not to do it. And also in principle it is haraam to boycott a believer, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘It is not permissible for a man to forsake [not speak to] his brother for more than three [days].’”

BTW, can you mention one single scholar that said "all bidah will take you out of islam"?

gearcoin:


I book this space....

lexiconkabir:


Again mr, we are discissing bidah. And so far you've not given any meaningful contribution, you've been constituting nuisance here, if you don't have a.meaningful contribution, kindly leave through here >>>>>>>>>>

or better still go through here


<<<<<<<<<<<<

suledes:




This is one of d people I am talking about arguing religius affair. In an Hadith, Rasulullah said, ''if you found anything disgusting, use your action to condemn it. If not, use your mouth. If not, use your mind''.



Therefore, if you have been condeming some acts as bid'ah, and those people are claiming that they are not bid'ah, but ibaadah. Leave them alone, and let their affairs to Allah.


Allah says, '' Alaisallah bi hakamil hakimeen''.


Therefore, I can't contribute to your religious arguement.

gearcoin:
@ lexiconkabir




I laugh at your ignorance, who should be call a lier other than you !

Initial from your post, you claimed that your evidences that supported your notion that bidiah can be categorised is in your post and of which I went through and was not there other than one Abu isra scenario and we have cleared that one.

You even claim that ijmaa suport your point of which i refuted. I dont think you understand ijma at all.

see what you posted before , I quote " Its from ijma', the prophet said ijma' is infallible, hope you know that?

Scholars are the inheritors of the prophet"

Since quran or hadith didnt categorise bidiah , no any scholars ijmaa or shaaba ijmaa that agreed that bidiah can be categorised .
All your lie in your post about ijmaa and bidiah types have been refuted., i will come into that in details at the end of the post.

Now back to Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 293 in which I posted in my initial post, I googled the the exact Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 293 directly to read it entirely and i did not see the part someone ask him that question about bidiah, if it is there, i will surely capture it together, I like to go to source directly, am coming to that in proper in the end of the post . so relax and open your mind.

Now from my fact above, tell me how i was dishonest, this is deen, i will never say somting i will not have evidence to support myself. If i do it ,then it be should a mistake and i will never lie to defend my point. never !



Mr man ! you cant use some view of salaf to conclude a case in shariah, you need to bring other salafy view and compare and contrast.
All of them did not agree on your notion that bidia can be categorise into kufur and non kufr. who are you in islam to come here in public forum and coclude that one bidiah is kufur and other is non kufur.

Now see some views of some scholar on bidiah which are different from yours . here will go.......

1.... Linguistically bid'ah (innovation) means 'a newly invented matter'. The Sharee'ah definition of bid'ah is: "A newly invented way [beliefs or action] in the religion, in imitation of the Sharee'ah (prescribed Law), by which nearness to Allaah is sought, [but] not being supported by any authentic proof - neither in its foundations, nor in the manner in which it is performed." Al-I'tisaam of ash-Shaatibee (1/37).

>>> This scholar did not categorise bidiah

others scholars that did not categorise bidiah into kafir or non kafir type are : Shaykh al-Albanee and Ibn baaz


2.. These scholar categorise bidiah as Bid'ah Say'iah and Bid'ah Hasana.

>>> scholars that support Bid'ah Say'iah are : (Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani [/b]and [b]Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya) or (Muhammad Ramzaan) e.tc.

>>> scholars that support Bid'ah Hasana are : Muhammad ash-Shawkani, Al-Nawawi, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Ibn Manzur, Al-Raghib al-Isfahani and Badr al-Din al-Ayni) e.tc



Mr man ! from the fact above I hope you see that all the sheik not agreed to the notion that bidiah are of kufr and non kufr type. So for this reason, dont come to open forum and stick to that your notion without pointing to other scholar opinion , you can do that if only you have researched that other evidence against your own is not valid. hope you get that, good.


Now, that every scholar have different view on any topics and no facts from quran, hadith , ijmaa shaaba or ijmaa salafy to conclude it. what is the way forward ?
Solution : you have two options :

option 1 : you need to do more research and found out the sheik that have strongest and valid facts from quran and hadith to support his point and stick to it and if possible share your reason with people you are propagating knowledge to.

Note that option 1 is very difficult, you need to be highy knowleageable in hadith and shariah or find your time to research those that have already done that.

option 2: stay out from the element of doubt of that matter and stick to a fact from quran or hadith that make you safe from the context of scholar argument differences.


Note these :

>>> at the begining of your post , you did not reference any scholar that categorise bidia as you claimed apart from that abu israi senario. If you brought them at initial i would have replied you the way i just reply u now.

>> you lied that ijmaa supported your claim wchich i refuted.






Did I tell you initially that "all bidah will take you out of islam" ?


What am claiming for you is that you cant categorise bidia into kafir and non kafir type, your evidence you presented did not and will never validate it for you because your evidence is not supported by neither quran/sunnah nor ijmaa.

if you are wise, let me leave you with this hadith below :

Ibn Abbaas (d. 68H) said: "Indeed the most detestable of things to Allaah are the innovations." Reported by al-Bayhaqee in as-Sunan al-Kubraa (4/316)

Remeber, bidiah is bidiah and no bidiah is small.

If you like buy land, I just brought that to show you and readers how dishonest you are, even that abdurrahman.org where you brought those links, there are some lectures therein that talked about types of bidah, there is another lecture there by Albanee where he mentioned that small bidah leads to big bidah, yani he agrees that bidah are of different types, small and big, here is the link https://abdurrahman.org/2014/10/08/the-consequences-of-bida-extremism-in-the-religion-shaykh-al-albaani/

In the last paragraph of that link he says the following;

And another benefit is: that a small Bida’ leads to a greater Bida’.

Infact Imam barbahaari(a student of imam Ahmad bin hanbali) lecture is also there where he talked on a major bidah starting from small things, yani he agrees that there are minor bidah, here is the link https://abdurrahman.org/2011/02/11/all-major-innovations-and-deviations-begin-small-and-insignificant/

In the last paragraph he said the following;

The scholars differentiate between those innovations which take a person outside the fold of Islaam (al-Bid’atul-Mukaffirah) and those which do not.

What do we see there? Imam barabahaari knows and agrees that there is bidah al-mukaffirah and Al-mufassiqah.

So keep deceiving yourself, like I've said, I've dropped the issue because i see much good in the advise of that brother.

Oh readers here is the full link that has all the lectures where he picked the two links he brought https://abdurrahman.org/innovation/

lexiconkabir:
And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them, they say salaam.

lexiconkabir:
And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them, they say salaam.

FriendChoice:


Ignore the reply of the guy above. Let it go.

Did I tell you initially that "all bidah will take you out of islam" ?

lexiconkabir:


I have o, the guy is contradicting himself he just said this;



what does it mean?

FriendChoice:


I concur

Did I tell you initially that "all bidah will take you out of islam" ?

lexiconkabir:




What I understand from this his statement is, not all bidah takes you out of Islam in other words not all bidah constitute kufr which is bidah al-Mufassiqah or is my interpretation twisting?

cc: Contact17 , udatso

did I do any twisting?

gearcoin:

Kindly give one example of bidiah that is not shirk?
Thanks.

lexiconkabir:




What I understand from this his statement is, not all bidah takes you out of Islam in other words not all bidah constitute kufr which is bidah al-Mufassiqah or is my interpretation twisting?

cc: Contact17 , udatso

did I do any twisting?

Did I tell you initially that "all bidah will take you out of islam" ?

gearcoin:
@ lexiconkabir




I laugh at your ignorance, who should be call a lier other than you !

Initial from your post, you claimed that your evidences that supported your notion that bidiah can be categorised is in your post and of which I went through and was not there other than one Abu isra scenario and we have cleared that one.

You even claim that ijmaa suport your point of which i refuted. I dont think you understand ijma at all.

see what you posted before , I quote " Its from ijma', the prophet said ijma' is infallible, hope you know that?

Scholars are the inheritors of the prophet"

Since quran or hadith didnt categorise bidiah , no any scholars ijmaa or shaaba ijmaa that agreed that bidiah can be categorised into kufur or non kufur .
All your lie in your post about ijmaa and bidiah types have been refuted., i will come into that in details at the end of the post.

Now back to Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 293 in which I posted in my initial post, I googled the the exact Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 293 directly to read it entirely and i did not see the part someone ask him that question about bidiah, if it is there, i will surely capture it together, I like to go to source directly, am coming to that in proper in the end of the post . so relax and open your mind.

Now from my fact above, tell me how i was dishonest, this is deen, i will never say somting i will not have evidence to support myself. If i do it ,then it be should a mistake and i will never lie to defend my point. never !



Mr man ! you cant use some view of salaf to conclude a case in shariah, you need to bring other salafy view and compare and contrast.
All of them did not agree on your notion that bidia can be categorise into kufur and non kufr. who are you in islam to come here in public forum and coclude that one bidiah is kufur and other is non kufur.

Now see some views of some scholar on bidiah which are different from yours . here will go.......

1.... Linguistically bid'ah (innovation) means 'a newly invented matter'. The Sharee'ah definition of bid'ah is: "A newly invented way [beliefs or action] in the religion, in imitation of the Sharee'ah (prescribed Law), by which nearness to Allaah is sought, [but] not being supported by any authentic proof - neither in its foundations, nor in the manner in which it is performed." Al-I'tisaam of ash-Shaatibee (1/37).

>>> This scholar did not categorise bidiah

others scholars that did not categorise bidiah into kafir or non kafir type are : Shaykh al-Albanee and Ibn baaz


2.. These scholar categorise bidiah as Bid'ah Say'iah and Bid'ah Hasana.

>>> scholars that support Bid'ah Say'iah are : (Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani [/b]and [b]Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya) or (Muhammad Ramzaan) e.tc.

>>> scholars that support Bid'ah Hasana are : Muhammad ash-Shawkani, Al-Nawawi, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Ibn Manzur, Al-Raghib al-Isfahani and Badr al-Din al-Ayni) e.tc



Mr man ! from the fact above I hope you see that all the sheik not agreed to the notion that bidiah are of kufr and non kufr type. So for this reason, dont come to open forum and stick to that your notion without pointing to other scholar opinion , you can do that if only you have researched that other evidence against your own is not valid. hope you get that, good.


Now, that every scholar have different view on any topics and no facts from quran, hadith , ijmaa shaaba or ijmaa salafy to conclude it. what is the way forward ?
Solution : you have two options :

option 1 : you need to do more research and found out the sheik that have strongest and valid facts from quran and hadith to support his point and stick to it and if possible share your reason with people you are propagating knowledge to.

Note that option 1 is very difficult, you need to be highy knowleageable in hadith and shariah or find your time to research those that have already done that.

option 2: stay out from the element of doubt of that matter and stick to a fact from quran or hadith that make you safe from the context of scholar argument differences.


Note these :

>>> at the begining of your post , you did not reference any scholar that categorise bidia as you claimed apart from that abu israi senario. If you brought them at initial i would have replied you the way i just reply u now.

>> you lied that ijmaa supported your claim wchich i refuted.






Did I tell you initially that "all bidah will take you out of islam" ?


What am claiming for you is that you cant categorise bidia into kafir and non kafir type, your evidence you presented did not and will never validate it for you because your evidence is not supported by neither quran/sunnah nor ijmaa.

if you are wise, let me leave you with this hadith below :

Ibn Abbaas (d. 68H) said: "Indeed the most detestable of things to Allaah are the innovations." Reported by al-Bayhaqee in as-Sunan al-Kubraa (4/316)

Remeber, that bidiah is bidiah and no bidiah is small.

gearcoin:

Kindly give one example of bidiah that is not shirk?
Thanks.

FriendChoice:


Still looking for the writer.

lexiconkabir:




What I understand from this his statement is, not all bidah takes you out of Islam in other words not all bidah constitute kufr which is bidah al-Mufassiqah or is my interpretation twisting?

cc: Contact17 , udatso

did I do any twisting?

udatso:

May Allah continue to reward you for the enlightment. Many brothers and sisters including me appreciate your input. You haven't done any twisting. Many classifications are given based on the varying definition of a particular matter in different verses or Authentic narrations. If he understands this concept, there won't be need for further argument.

gearcoin:
Then, why the op didn't include other scholar classification in his original post to clear everything to audience.

Aliy996:

Th op has done verywell to the audience that wants to learn about islaam, only someone with evil mind and aqeedah will stil continue to try to bring what is nt in the shariah into it, jazaakallah khayran