[quote author=Wilgrea7 post=50649969]

if you read the thread you'll see the meaning of eternal fire... its results are eternal.. the fire can't be quenched.. just like in the case of sodom and Gomorrah.. no escape from it.. running into a river won't help you... it will reduce to ashes just like Sodom and Gomorrah and just like Edom.. it doesn't leave any trace... if it does then explain these scriptures

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

"But the wicked shall perish , and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away ." Psalms 37:20

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: t he soul that sinneth, it shall die ." Ezekiel 18:4.

don't deceive yourself.
why would Jesus use the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah as example?? because their judgement has been carried out.. sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist... they were wiped from existence.. that was exactly Jesus point.. so saying that sodom and Gomorrah (as cities which have been destroyed) have any judgement coming to them is a fallacy..

also... look at the verse u quoted again


Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, THAN FOR THAT CITY
Matthew:10:15

Jesus is talking about the judgement coming on the city of those that reject his message. he used Sodom and Gomorrah as an example.. so please don't quote out of context

u said i should repent? what does repentance have to do in belief in eternal torment?? I've showed u all biblical proof from both the verses you brought forth and the ones i brought that hell isn't eternal torment but yet all you can do is to say I'm twisting the scripture.. look at all what I've been posting and all what you eternal torment preachers have been posting and tell me who's twisting what.. anyone looking at it with an unbiased mind can tell that I'm not the one twisting the scripture or quoting out of context

spread the good news
our God isn't a sadist
He is a just God
A God of love
but also a God of justice

i stand for the truth.... even if i stand alone[/quotet
lol JW always claiming to stand for the truth. You twist scriptures make them mean what you want them to mean, but all the while standing on the t

honourhim:

That's how the guy operates. He keeps pulling out scriptures and giving it all sorts of interpretations to make his false teaching look like truth.
Notice his chest-beating having felt he has used his manipulation of the scripture to convince people.

He convinces only the watchtower mindsets.

Scholar8200:
Thanks a lot. I fear there are that argue, not for Truth's sake but just wanting to have the last say. I've learnt to oblige them.

Having the last word doesn't mean he has won.
We shall meet again, by and by.

Wilgrea7:


if you read the thread you'll see the meaning of eternal fire... its results are eternal.. the fire can't be quenched.. just like in the case of sodom and Gomorrah.. no escape from it.. running into a river won't help you... it will reduce to ashes just like Sodom and Gomorrah and just like Edom.. it doesn't leave any trace... if it does then explain these scriptures

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

"But the wicked shall perish , and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away ." Psalms 37:20

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: t he soul that sinneth, it shall die ." Ezekiel 18:4.

don't deceive yourself.
why would Jesus use the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah as example?? because their judgement has been carried out.. sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist... they were wiped from existence.. that was exactly Jesus point.. so saying that sodom and Gomorrah (as cities which have been destroyed) have any judgement coming to them is a fallacy..

also... look at the verse u quoted again


Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, THAN FOR THAT CITY
Matthew:10:15

Jesus is talking about the judgement coming on the city of those that reject his message. he used Sodom and Gomorrah as an example.. so please don't quote out of context

u said i should repent? what does repentance have to do in belief in eternal torment?? I've showed u all biblical proof from both the verses you brought forth and the ones i brought that hell isn't eternal torment but yet all you can do is to say I'm twisting the scripture.. look at all what I've been posting and all what you eternal torment preachers have been posting and tell me who's twisting what.. anyone looking at it with an unbiased mind can tell that I'm not the one twisting the scripture or quoting out of context

spread the good news
our God isn't a sadist
He is a just God
A God of love
but also a God of justice

i stand for the truth.... even if i stand alone

You mean the Judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah has been carried out yet The Master said it would tolerable for them on Judgement day? Are we reading the same Bible?

analice107:


Did you get the part which Jesus said Sodom and Gomorrah shall stand the white throne Judgement?

There's something you are either not getting or are fighting to suppress.

The land (Physical Habitat) has been burnt, but is that the same with the souls of them who died there?

I heard you saying you are not JW but here you are projecting their doctrines of Materialism.
Every one has a soul and The Master said, Sodom will resurrect, when the Master said that, did he mean the land of Sodom or the people of sodom? Na waoo.


Lets start from here, Post where it says the fire which burnt out Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal.

Sodom and Gomorrah can not keep burning becos the fire which burned Sodom is not the same with fire of hell. The fire of Sodom consumed everything, and its temporal while the fire of hell is eternal. it burns but doesnt consume.

God showed us a gleams of what that fire is like wen He showed Moses in the Wilderness, the fire was burning but wasn't consuming the substance.

The physical fire of Sodom leaves Ashes, but the fire of hell doesn't consume so there wont be any ashes.

I'm not trying to surpress anything... rather u refuse to answer my questions and you're replying with more questions.. please quote where Jesus said “sodom and Gomorrah will stand before me on the last day".

i believe we all have souls. as to if Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed both body and soul or only body by the eternal fire of God.. i don't know... but considering the nature of the fire being eternal, it may be possible that its both body and soul... but still, it doesn't validate your argument

you needed the verse saying the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal... here it is

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the VENGANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE .

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day...

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


as you can see ma, they are set forth as an EXAMPLE... exactly as Jesus was trying to illustrate. if you read the whole of Jude you will see it... except you're really blinded by dogmatism

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

further proof that the wicked will be reserved unto the day of judgement to be punished.
how will they be punished? like Sodom and Gomorrah in the verses above.

I'm not a jw. i was a pentecostal and once believed in the fake tactic of eternal punishment until i saw the truth which i am trying to share. we do have souls. I'm not materialistic like the jw.

we have souls and according to Ezekiel,

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

clear punishment for the soul who sins.

analice107:

He convinces only the watchtower mindsets.

for the 1000th time... I'm not a jw..
jw believe in no hell at all and paradise.. i don't hold their beliefs.. why can't u guys understand that someone doesn't have to be a jw to oppose a lie.. yeesh... if calling me a jw is the only strategy u can devise then i will conclude that you have no points to defend your fake doctrine and you're trying to attack my personality as a last resort.. I'm not even a dogma...I'm ever ready to learn yet none of you have refuted what i said

Wilgrea7:


you are the ones saying the dead are extinct... the bible said they are asleep. or where in the bible did it say a dead man is extinct? the bible clearly stated times without number that people who die are asleep and will be raised up on the last day


I'm not a Pentecostal.. i was once until i was loosed from dogmatism... i once believed in the doctrine of eternal torment until I saw the truth about it.. I've seen the truth and I'm not going to be stingy with it... if u can let go of all biasness you will see the truth.. except u gain money from preaching this fake scare tactic

i stand for the truth... even if i stand alone

Oh yea the bible never called them dead. They are asleep and existing in your bedroom. . Enjoy your lies while it lasts. You can even upgrade it to say that the lake of fire does not exist. No punishment for the sinners. Do more research and your usual twisting of the scripture and arrive on this so that u can win more souls. There are people out there waiting to hear that there will be no punishment at all. Kindly extend your sweet lies to them.

honourhim:



Oh yea the bible never called them dead. They are asleep and existing in your bedroom. . Enjoy your lies while it lasts. You can even upgrade it to say that the lake of fire does not exist. No punishment for the sinners. Do more research and your usual twisting of the scripture and arrive on this so that u can win more souls. There are people out there waiting to hear that there will be no punishment at all. Kindly extend your sweet lies to them.

very typical of you... when you run out of points to bring forth in a logical argument u start attacking the other person.. calling them liars.. yet u fail to refute their claims and reject all biblical and solid evidence against yours.. i heard you were an atheist before... i find that hard to believe. i dunno how someone can go from atheism to dogmatism.. both are dangerous and blind.
i never said there will be no punishment for sinners.. there will be punishment and Jesus is rendering to everyone according to his works.. i don't care about soul winning for now.. i just want to spread the truth and expose a lie for what it is... you guys have failed to justify your beliefs biblically and logically and all you can do is attack and call something a lie.. very typical of a dogma.. you can continue preaching your lies.. i really hope you don't scare people away from God.. and i really hope one day you can do what you preach to your children...

until then

cheers

analice107:

Yes. but in hellfire.

Every immortal life is eternal. There are immortals already. But the living are not yet, but will be.

Wen we die we shall become immortals too, wherever you find yourself will determine where u'd spend your eternity. everyone is a spirit, spirits don't die.

wow... so we attain immortal life through death? nice.. that means death is now a gate to immortality... preach on ma.. that means all Christ's teachings and all the bible's teaching about attaining eternal life through Christ are wrong... wow...you guys never cease to amaze me.. so all this all in the name of supporting eternal hell?

kwantinue

analice107:

Sir, the church started in the upper room with 120 Souls. Through the Acts of Apostles there churches, howbeit, without names but locations. Our Problem started when identifiable names like the one you just mentioned came into play. There was nothing like The universal Catholic Apostolic whatever. This was were denominations began.

Hmmm, I see. True, the problem started then but I'm surprised you don't see any problem now with the over 33,000 christian denomination that can be traced back to the 16th century reformation.

On the day od Pentecost, 3,000 souls were added to the Church, what was the name of that church?

I don't know the name of the Church but whatever church was then, it was One and united. In Acts 15, in Antioch when there was confusion about circumcision... 'Then certain individuals came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to discuss this question with the apostles and the elders. So they were sent on their way by the church, and as they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, they reported the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the believers. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

If the church wasn't called a name, does it invalidate history? The above passage here names places. Christians were first named in Antioch. St Mark finished writing the Gospel of Mark in Alexandria and there was a church there. These were places, and I believe they weren't roaming disorderly outside on the streets. These people have successors that you can trace to this day, documented. Many have been martyred, beheaded and persecuted during the conquest of the Ottoman empire and are venerated as Saints who were faithful till the end.

The Epistles talk about appointing bishops, deacons and how God is not the author of confusion as in all the churches of the Saints (knowing church history, one will understand the meaning of the verse as not referring to a Lutheran, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses or Pentecostal church). Peter's remains is beneath the catacombs of the Basilica...these are historical facts not religious ones. When the Epistles are read as a historical document - of which the New Testament is appraised to be the most accurate ancient historical document known - it gives much meaning from which you instantly see a problem with literalist reading and interpretation of Scripture.

The Church that Paul was reporting to in Jerusalem headed by James, Jesus' brother who was later killed by King Herod, then Peter took over, what was the name of that Church and was it the same one you talked about as being formed in 42-47AD?

If it was headed by James, doesn't that make James a bishop? It's there in scripture how bishops are appointed. The letters of the epistles were written to churches at different places. The RCC has 33AD as their founding date. Mark was a disciple of Peter, and bishop of Alexandria in Egypt but the church was founded by Peter and Paul in 42AD, about the time the gospel of St Mark was written.

No Sir. The Universal Church of Christ doesn't have a name.

The universal church is termed Catholic. Catholic means universal. There is no Catholic church anymore in that sense. Roman catholic is not Catholic by that definition and they know that, people just call them that. The body of Christ is the Church, His Church and God defines that but many people have become and choose to remain 'catholics' because they would prefer to worship God in the same manner which the early christians and apostles did and most importantly believe what they also believed and not to be thrown by every wind of doctrine of the over 33,000.

stephendamsoho:
pardon my ignorance I'm a bit confused here

I thought there's a holy spirit inside all Christians that would reveal answers to arguments such as this if you ask him? why then don't you guys ask him in order to put this to bed once and for all?

each side of the argument keeps supporting his points with biblical verses, meaning there's a stalemate

spiritual (not scriptural) answers are what's needed here not back and forth

oh believe me I've prayed.. one thing i hate is ignorance .. i believe i may be wrong... but i need evidence i am wrong.. it depends on who is quoting out of context and who's doctrine contradicts the scripture

Wilgrea7:
Yes.. i called it a false doctrine.. the doctrine of eternal torment is a stupid one and i don't regret saying that. its a worthless doctrine that people used to paint God as a sadist.. people have justified hell by saying we choose to go there or other stuffs like that... I've been viewing too many threads here that people use the eternal torment as a means to portay a sadistic God. I'm going to settle it once and for all..

eternal torment preachers are welcomed to bring their ponts..

atheists which also use eternal torment as an insult to God are welcome to learn.

bigots please keep off

let the games begin

seun, lalasticlala, hardmirror, otemanuduno , shadeyinka, etc

theists and atheists alike are welcome

Nice article . this is one of the biggest Heresy issue in Christedom. i have tried explaining this to my pastor but he would not accept it.

Wilgrea7:


for the 1000th time... I'm not a jw..
jw believe in no hell at all and paradise.. i don't hold their beliefs.. why can't u guys understand that someone doesn't have to be a jw to oppose a lie.. yeesh... if calling me a jw is the only strategy u can devise then i will conclude that you have no points to defend your fake doctrine and you're trying to attack my personality as a last resort.. I'm not even a dogma...I'm ever ready to learn yet none of you have refuted what i said

why are you making it seem like being a JW is such a bad thing? Well, maybe you don't know, you are preaching thw gospel of materialism which happens to be watchtower induced. There's just no way someone will read you and not conclude you Jw. Except of course its a case of speaking with the voice of Jacob but presenting the hands of Esau.

I have no intention of proving anything to you, Just like the Pharisees you think its in Comparing yourself with others and judging yourself better that makes you better whatever.
No wahala, l keep saying, we shall know wen we die.

analice107:


why are you making it seem like being a JW is such a bad thing? Well, maybe you don't know, you are preaching thw gospel of materialism which happens to be watchtower induced. There's just no way someone will read you and not conclude you Jw. Except of course its a case of speaking with the voice of Jacob but presenting the hands of Esau.

I have no intention of proving anything to you, Just like the Pharisees you think its in Comparing yourself with others and judging yourself better that makes you better whatever.
No wahala, l keep saying, we shall know wen we die.

you guys are the ones tagging me as a jw... I'm only telling you I'm not. i don't know much of their beliefs.. i do respect them for the courage to go door to door to preach.

i dunno why u think i preach materialism.. when i made my research on hell i made sure i avoided jw websites.. so my points are not from them... i believe we have a soul.. God breathed into man and he became a living soul.
but i also believe God said the soul that sinneth shall die not suffer eternal torment.. the misconception you guys have about my belief is that u believe I'm against torment... no... torment will be carried out according to your works.. but the end is death.. death as God and Jesus signified.

I'm not like a Pharisee.. i once was... dogmas are like Pharisees.. I'm not a dogma.. i am open to opinions.. i weigh them with an unbiased mind. i do research a lot and i still pray to be corrected if I'm wrong.. I'm not better than anyone.. i may even be the worst of sinners. none of you refuted what i said or could explain verses i put forth in the light of eternal torment.. i brought forth points.. u brought forth accusations.. if i were a pharisee as youre implying then i would still believe in eternal torment, tithe, and many other lies i have done away with.. I'm always open to knowledge both within and outside Christianity.

concerning the hell.... yes we would find out when we die... or on the last day

Op, it is dishonest for you to gather Scriptures to back up your preconceived opinions while ignoring many more Scriptures that teaches otherwise. If you really want to convince people of your fabricated doctrines, explain all the scriptures that addresses eternal judgment or stop your deception. I don't need any prophet to tell me you are a Jehovah's witness.

I feel very sorry for you because you will soon join your founders and fellow JW in the hottest part of hell you are saying does not exist.

blueAgent:



Nice article . this is one of the biggest Heresy issue in Christedom. i have tried explaining this to my pastor but he would not accept it.

most pastors won't accept it even when they've seen correct biblical evidence against it.. its part of what gives them money.. except for the unbiased ones. and many dogmatic Christians will still reject the truth even after seeing evidence.. its one of the dangers of dogmatism.. ignorance.. God help us all

Ken4Christ:
Op, it is dishonest for you to gather Scriptures to back up your preconceived opinions while ignoring many more Scriptures that teaches otherwise. If you really want to convince people of your fabricated doctrines, explain all the scriptures that addresses eternal judgment or stop your deception. I don't need any prophet to tell me you are a Jehovah's witness.

I feel very sorry for you because you will soon join your founders and fellow JW in the hottest part of hell you are saying does not exist.

neither do i need any prophet to tell me you're a dogma.. I'm not a jw... and do yourself a favour... read through the whole thread before spitting out lies like i haven't explained or addressed verses you claim hint an eternal burning hell.. also do well to explain all the verses i put forth and the ones i sent in the picture earlier in the light of eternal torment.. otherwise stop being ignorant..

blueAgent:



Nice article . this is one of the biggest Heresy issue in Christedom. i have tried explaining this to my pastor but he would not accept it.

Maybe the holy spirit in u is different from the one in him

Even on this thread, we can clearly see the problem of individual interpretation. If Wilgrea7 has the means and fervent desire, he will expand and propagate his teachings on a large scale, likewise those that disagree. The question we should ask ourselves is this: What if we are wrong? Would you rather be judged for teaching falsehoods (if it turns out to be false)? The Bible says teachers would have a stricter judgement. The book of Revelations warns not to add or remove anything from the book and has serious warnings against that.

For me, I would rather jejely follow what is being taught to me and leave the teacher to his judgement from God. But first one has to find a good teacher, right? Yes. How about being taught by the people who knew the apostles? Read early church documents. Start with the didache, then church fathers, and if you have time, the reformation (you would mostly find protestant accounts but read both)... then look at all the things you complain about christians and christianity today, and ask a crucial question: How did christians get to completely do away with the sacrament of the Eucharist? which Jesus commanded for eternal life? Why did they change it's meaning and its significance? when you find that these decisions can be traced back to individuals such as Zwingli and Scofield (which I'm sure not many know about) and other ones to Calvin and then Luther. One would have a rethink and probably deduce why atheists, the ones who either read the bible or and read wide, are nurtured in certain kinds of churches who then they eventually come to NL to meet satanists that deceives and assures them that just because their pastor or type of christianity is unappealing to good conscience and common sense, equating the supernatural to stupidity, therefore all of christianity is crap and there is no God and some foolishly start insulting God.

How come every pentecostal church is blind to 'Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world' but they invent sow money for prosperity in riches, even from the orphans and widows that are their (everyone's) responsibility that would please God and the Father, and even make tithes a requirement for salvation their answer is usually: 'We are saved by faith alone not works' so who came up with the faith alone and no works? check history then you will go back to Martin Luther, and before that what did christians believe? How do they interpret Matt 25:34-46. If they even read such passages. Now they have 'hypersupergrace' and variants where absolutely nothing is required except believing about Jesus Christ, but when did this secret revelation, that missed all twenty centuries of christians and christianity start?

Going by these, one would understand that the people who wrote the gospels and the epistles would completely denounce what the majority of the christians - not majority. the Roman Catholics + Orthodox still make up the majority - believe today about almost everything pertaining to the christian faith.

When people who have come out of occult expose means and techniques many of the so called pastors use today, they shout 'touch not my anointed.' But just because it works doesn't make it right, true or God. You don't have to worship Jesus Christ to do many of the things they do that's why I believed most of one former-pastor-now-God-hater story on NL. They say 'you cannot know where you are going unless you know where you come from' ... 'People who don't know their history are bound to repeat it'

Final note, what if the 'catholic' church turns out to be right, who then becomes the anti-Christ among christians?

But God is good and merciful, it is always based on the genuine heart, desire for and faith in Him and never about what one doesn't know.

Prayer: [b]'You, Lord, according to your gentle grace, promised forgiveness to those who are sorry for their sins. In your great mercy, you allowed sinners to turn from their sins and find salvation.' Therefore, Lord, God of those who do what is right, you didn’t offer Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who didn’t sin against you, a chance to change their hearts and lives. But you offer me, the sinner, the chance to change my heart and life, because my sins outnumbered the grains of sand by the sea. My sins are many, Lord; they are many. I am not worthy to look up, to gaze into heaven because of my many sins. Now I bow down before you from deep within my heart, begging for your kindness. I have sinned, Lord, I have sinned, and I know the laws I’ve broken. I’m praying, begging you: Forgive me, Lord, forgive me. Don’t destroy me along with my sins. Don’t keep my bad deeds in your memory forever. Don’t sentence me to the earth’s depths, for you, Lord, are the God of those who turn from their sins. In me you’ll show how kind you are. Although I’m not worthy, you’ll save me according to your great mercy. I will praise you continuously all the days of my life, because all of heaven’s forces praise you, and the glory is yours forever and always. Amen.' [/b] -Selected portions of the Prayer of Manasseh.

This blessed prayer isn't included in the Bible. Can you see why?

thanks a lot @ TheSixthSense. i also imagine the possibility that i might be wrong and i ask God to Correct me if i am so as not to mislead people. ignorance is feeling you are right and cannot be wrong.. i am ready to learn. i once tried to research the teachings and doctrines of the earliest church but I'm seeing a lot of contradictory stuffs and trash... please can you help me with a link? thanks

[quote author=Wilgrea7 post=50646131]

attack?? I'm showing u that the story is a parable and yet you say I'm attacking it




ok... so satan is not an identifiable person, devil isn't an identifiable person, the son of man isn't an identifiable person?? who is now the one spreading lies?

post the parable let everyone know who is lying

... very funny... how many of Jesus parables did he explain secretly, is it all?? stop tying to make an accusation that has no ground

Jesus always gave clues to know they are parables.
The story of the richman and lazarus were clearly not parables.

I am still waiting for you to show me were Jesus used names of real life people to make parable please, Abeg paste one here and prove me wrong

the story of lazarus and the rich man isn't an everyday occurrence abi?? what makes it a non-everyday occurrence?

if the story was an everyday occurrence that means hell must also be real.

this is real funny.. Lazarus was never said to be righteous... he was said to be poor.. the rich man was never said to be a sinner.. he was just simply rich. you don't know the significance of the parable and you don't care to ask.. you're just calling it false. why was Abraham used there? why would a place in sheol be called Abraham's bosom? was he the first righteous person to have died?? what of Noah, Adam, Abel and many others?? Abraham's significance there is that he is the father of their faith.. the rich man represents the Pharisees and Jews blessed with the wisdom and blessings of God.. yet they refuse to share with the gentiles surrounding them. the purple and linen cloth the rich man was wearing was and has always been a symbol of royalty and priesthood.. that's the more reason he was referring to the Jews(God's choosen people)

whats your definition of righteousness.

your mind is playing tricks on you, i never said lazarus was with Abraham because he was poor neither did i say the richman went to hell because he was rich.

This your forged interpretation ehh
Following your interpretation,
What does the dog represent?
What does the poor man dying mean?
What does the richman dying mean?

In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they received Christ in Ephesians 2:12.
EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Christ. He says that first , Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades after his death.
If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.
HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises , but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

there was no burial for lazarus because there was no body to bury him, what is the contradiction there.
this below is the symbolism of Abraham in the parable
@ bold wow,
mr man where was it written that lazarus received eternal life.
Another lie spotted.

Stop twisting scriptures to propagate your lies.

Prove that story was a parable.

GALATIANS 3:6 . . . Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham . 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames". It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (NKJV )
Abraham clearly identifies the rich man as his descendant by calling him "son." He tells him that things have changed. When the Jews were God's chosen people, they enjoyed the spiritual blessings associated with that status. But now, Abraham says, Lazarus is enjoying those blessings while the rich man is grieving and in sorrow.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).


because of these reasons and many more, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable and not literal

mehh see bible twisting,
You are funny, how do you explain how the richman was in hell while his brothers where still alive? Following this garbage, israel has only six tribes abi? Where did the other whooping six tribes go? Abi it was only six tribes that were wicked? just like Jehovah witness, see what trying to twist scriptures can do?

I pray you retrace your steps!

Prove that the story is a parable.
Your interpretation reeks of contradiction.

Smh

[quote author=solite3 post=50658402][/quote]


pls show me the so called contradictions... i earlier listed parables involving names of real people... u ignored it


you've been singing twisting twisting since... you've not shown me how the rich man and lazarus story is also literal.. you're just looking for loopholes

u can visit these links to clear your doubt

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/richman-and-lazarus-smith.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm


what i wanted to post is too long... but the links explain it well

solite3:
eternal life is living with God
forever

eternal life is living forever . simple, now since those in your hellfire and Satan will LIVE FOREVER, do you accept that they will have eternal life too ?

Whether you call it hell or grave it does change the fact that the richman was in torment.

so you mean dead people are tormented in the Grave ? hahahahaha solite3 who do you like this


some Christians recognize this and make it clear that this story wasn't real . a footnote in Jerusalem bible even confirms it .

[quote author=solite3 post=50658402][/quote]

also while i was reading your reply u failed to acknowledge some things... if we take the parable to be literal ignoring the structure and all evidences, this is what the parable implies

1. the righteous dead go to live in Abraham's bosom... quite a big bosom if you ask me

also, you haven't replied why the rich man referred to Abraham as his father and vice versa

2. if the parable is literal that means the wicked dead are being punished and in torment after death.. that seems pointless considering bible verses saying the wicked are reserved unto the last day ... the day of judgement.

i agree the sibling part is flawed as i copied that part directly from an article without proper review..

you said Lazarus has no body hence was not buried.... who told u this?? nawa for ur own interpretation o... nd yet u insult mine

but still... if the parable were to be taken literally, the wicked are punished before judgement day... which makes no sense... who is punishing them if judgement hasn't been passed?

why do u ignore the genealogy and unmistakable similarity in the structure of the story and all other parables if u claim it was not a parable?

also.... i need your proof that the story is literal and reasons why it is literal and not symbolic

Wilgrea7:



you guys are the ones tagging me as a jw... I'm only telling you I'm not. i don't know much of their beliefs.. i do respect them for the courage to go door to door to preach.

i dunno why u think i preach materialism.. when i made my research on hell i made sure i avoided jw websites.. so my points are not from them... i believe we have a soul.. God breathed into man and he became a living soul.
but i also believe God said the soul that sinneth shall die not suffer eternal torment.. the misconception you guys have about my belief is that u believe I'm against torment... no... torment will be carried out according to your works.. but the end is death.. death as God and Jesus signified.

I'm not like a Pharisee.. i once was... dogmas are like Pharisees.. I'm not a dogma.. i am open to opinions.. i weigh them with an unbiased mind. i do research a lot and i still pray to be corrected if I'm wrong.. I'm not better than anyone.. i may even be the worst of sinners. none of you refuted what i said or could explain verses i put forth in the light of eternal torment.. i brought forth points.. u brought forth accusations.. if i were a pharisee as youre implying then i would still believe in eternal torment, tithe, and many other lies i have done away with.. I'm always open to knowledge both within and outside Christianity.

concerning the hell.... yes we would find out when we die... or on the last day

Thats okay. lets die and see.

Wilgrea7:
The question which has to be settle in the mind of every believer is this: Did the Lord Jesus use figurative language when He described the condition of the Rich Man and Lazarus after they died, or did He speak the literal truth? When He said that Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom, was He speaking literally or figuratively?
There are at least seven strong reasons for believing that what our Lord said about the state of the Rich Man and Lazarus after their deaths was meant to be taken figuratively and not literally.
( 1 ). That the Rich Man and Lazarus actually lived on earth need not be questioned. However it should be remembered that the Lord Jesus distinctly states that they both died. Once this simple fact is recognized it becomes impossible to believe that they could be both physically dead and physically alive at the same time. Yet even while they are dead they are represented as being alive in bodies. The tongue and eyes of the Rich Man and the tip of the finger of Lazarus are mentioned.
The fact that the Lord distinctly states that both the Rich Man and Lazarus died, then immediately represents them as being physically alive, proves that what He says concerning them in Hades is meant to be taken figuratively and not literally.
( 2 ). In Luke 16 the Lord Jesus represents Abraham as being alive in Hades. In Luke 20:27-40 the Lord makes it plain to the Sadducees, who did not believe in resurrection, that Abraham is dead, and that God is not the God of the dead. He makes it clear that before God can again be the God of Abraham, he must raise Abraham from the dead. The fact that Abraham is actually dead awaiting resurrection proves that the Lord’s reference to him as being alive prior to resurrection is meant to be taken figuratively and not literally.
( 3 ). From Genesis to Revelation the Scriptures teach that the dead are asleep until resurrection. Those who limit this sleep to the body do so in direct contradiction to the statements of Scriptures which make it clear that the sleep of death is of the person, not just of the body. In Luke 16 the Rich Man and Lazarus are represented as being awake in bodies immediately after it is made clear that they have died. The fact that the dead are asleep until resurrection proves that when the Lord refers to the Rich Man and Lazarus as being awake prior to resurrection, He is speaking figuratively and not literally.
( 4 ). In the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus the Lord upholds the authority and the reliability of the writings of Moses and the Prophets. In these writings it is made clear that the dead are dead and that they must be resurrected before they can life again. Moses and the Prophets teach that death is said to be of the person, not just of the body. Many times in the Old Testament the expression occurs “he died” or “she died” or “they died.” Often the name of a person is given followed by the statement that he died. For example, Abraham died, Isaac died, Joseph died, David died (Gen.25:8; 35:29; 50:26; Acts 2:29).
If the words of the Lord Jesus concerning the condition of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Hades are taken literally, everything that was revealed to Moses and the Prophets concerning the state of the dead must be discarded as unreliable. To do so is to deny the Divine inspiration of the Scriptures. If the words of the Lord concerning the state of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Hades are taken figuratively, then there is harmony and agreement throughout the Scriptures on this important subject.
( 5 ). To make the words of the Lord Jesus concerning the Rich Man and Lazarus in Hades literal is to make Him contradict all that God had previously revealed about the state of the dead in Sheol or Hades.
Sheol of the Old Testament and Hades of the New Testament are identical in meaning. This is proven by the fact that when an Old Testament passage which speaks of Sheol is quoted in the New Testament, the Greek word Hades is used to represent the Hebrew word Sheol. This may be verified by comparing the Revised Version of Acts 2:25-28 with Psalm 16:8-11.
Concerning Sheol and death the Scriptures declare: “For Sheol cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee. They that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth” (Isa.38:18).
By inspiration of God the Prophet David wrote: “For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: In Sheol who shall give Thee thanks?” (Psa.6:5).
In the upright words of truth we are told: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest” (Ecclesiastes 9:10; 12:10).
In addition to all this the dead are said to be SILENT in Sheol. "Let the wicked . . . be silent in Sheol" (Psa. 31:17 R.V.). "The dead praise not Jehovah, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa.115:17 R.V.). In Luke 16 Abraham and the Rich Man are represented as carrying on a conversation loud enough to be heard though they were separated by a great distance.
The literal truth concerning Sheol having been clearly made known, it was perfectly proper for the Lord to refer to Sheol of Hades in a figurative manner. This He did beyond a shadow of doubt.
Elsewhere our Lord Himself taught that the dead do not live until resurrection (Rev.20:4-6). The Rich man of Luke 16 is included among those of whom the risen Son of God declares “the rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.” Then in order that they may be judged they are raised from the dead (Rev.20:11-15).
( 6 ). In Luke 16, after making it clear that the Rich Man and Lazarus have both died, the Lord immediately represents them as being alive and possessing bodies. To take this literally is to deny the need for resurrection.
The teaching of the New Testament does not differ from the teaching of the Old Testament concerning the state of the dead and the absolute necessity for resurrection. Long after His own resurrection the Lord made it clear, through the Apostle Paul, that apart from resurrection there can be no life after death for anyone. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the dead are inseparably tied together. If Christ has not been raised the rest of the dead will not be raised, and if there is no resurrection “then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.”
( 7 ). The last reason we want to call attention to for believing that what our Lord says concerning the Rich Man and Lazarus in Hades is figurative is found in Matthew 13:34. “All these things spoke Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spoke He nothing unto them.” If our Lord did not speak to the multitudes except in parables, then surely His words concerning the Rich Man and Lazarus in Hades must be figurative.

Solite3.... also address this

I'm still waiting for your points on how the parable is literal

analice107:

Thats okay. lets die and see.

analice107:
Thats okay. lets die and see.

hmmm.. rather you should have said "when we die"
your statement 'let's die and see z kinda scary"

Peacefullove:


eternal life is living forever . simple, now since those in your hellfire and Satan will LIVE FOREVER, do you accept that they will have eternal life too ?







so you mean dead people are tormented in the Grave ? hahahahaha solite3 who do you like this


some Christians recognize this and make it clear that this story wasn't real . a footnote in Jerusalem bible even confirms it .

no o... the footnote in Jerusalem doesn't concern them.. they'll probably raid Jerusalem one day and erase it from there

honourhim:


I don't have time to keep going round and round over an issue that has been discussed extensively here..
You can continue with your false teaching. You are just quoting scriptures anyhow like pentecostal pastors when they want to lure their congregation into their greed. Of course that is what is required to make a false teaching look like the truth.
In the other threads where this issue was discussed extensively someone asked why would God raise dead sinners some of who died thousands of years ago who have , according to your teaching, gone into extinction (since you don't believe in life after death). If its about extinction why raise them up again since they are already not existing any more?. None of you have provided a satisfactory answer to this.
You can continue with your teaching and win as much souls as you can. For me i stand for the truth no matter how bitter it is.

So your truth is that God will roast people in fire foreverlasting if i get you correctly? Hmmm clap for yourself.

Even abacha and Indiamin of Uganda must be a saint then.

You're the reasons why we have atheists. And God will judge all of you.


Back to the topic.

I used to asked people here on these forum. If the gospel of eternal torment (hellfire) is real why did God note introduce it to people in the old testament?

2 Did he forget to discuss it to all his prophet, starting from Adam to malachi? Atleast warn men of those days about it.


Did you know how many generations there were between Adam and Jesus? Can you tell me how many billions they were?

Ok is like some is saying those people will be judge according to their time, and without the law?
Hmmmmm.

And the people in time of Jesus will be the only ones going to hellfire.

To me what you're saying is that God is partial.

Yes that's what you mean. If the punishment for Adam was to returned to dust according to Genesis ch 3; 17- 19. And someone punishment in the time of Jesus means to spends everlasting in the honest fire ever seen. Believe me what you're say is that God is partial.

If you read the book of Job and ecclesiates you will know that these guys never knew any things about hellfire, yet they were righteous.


The good man of the house sewed a good seed but in the night while men slept the enemy came and sewed tares.


Pls answer all my questions and don't omit or selects any of it.

Thank you.

analice107:


Yes. but in hellfire.

Every immortal life is eternal. There are immortals already. But the living are not yet, but will be.

Wen we die we shall become immortals too, wherever you find yourself will determine where u'd spend your eternity. everyone is a spirit, spirits don't die.

with your resounding YES response , we are set for the next stage .

"
The world and its desires pass away , but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 2:17"

according to this verse living forever is strictly for those who do the will of God , analice107 by saying Yes you just made it clear that the character called Satan does the will of God , since he will live forever .


... once more , John 3:16 says everlasting life is for THOSE WHO PUT FAITH IN JESUS , with your yes response can we now admit that Those in the so called hell put faith in Jesus since they will have everlasting life ?

or you mean John 3:16 is a lie that everlasting life is for those who believe in Jesus ?


. another bible verse that you just contradict with your YES response is Romans 6 vs 23 , everlasting life according to this verse is a GIFT from God , God will give Satan his enemy the gift of everlasting life ? ayam not understanding you here .


clarify abeg

[quote author=TheSixthSense post=50654478]
Hmmm, I see. True, the problem started then but I'm surprised you don't see any problem now with the over 33,000 christian denomination that can be traced back to the 16th century reformation.

I don't know the name of the Church but whatever church was then, it was One and united. In Acts 15, in Antioch when there was confusion about circumcision... 'Then certain individuals came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to discuss this question with the apostles and the elders. So they were sent on their way by the church, and as they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, they reported the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the believers. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

If the church wasn't called a name, does it invalidate history? The above passage here names places. Christians were first named in Antioch. St Mark finished writing the Gospel of Mark in Alexandria and there was a church there. These were places, and I believe they weren't roaming disorderly outside on the streets. These people have successors that you can trace to this day, documented. Many have been martyred, beheaded and persecuted during the conquest of the Ottoman empire and are venerated as Saints who were faithful till the end.

The Epistles talk about appointing bishops, deacons and how God is not the author of confusion as in all the churches of the Saints (knowing church history, one will understand the meaning of the verse as not referring to a Lutheran, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses or Pentecostal church). Peter's remains is beneath the catacombs of the Basilica...these are historical facts not religious ones. When the Epistles are read as a historical document - of which the New Testament is appraised to be the most accurate ancient historical document known - it gives much meaning from which you instantly see a problem with literalist reading and interpretation of Scripture.


If it was headed by James, doesn't that make James a bishop? It's there in scripture how bishops are appointed. The letters of the epistles were written to churches at different places. The RCC has 33AD as their founding date. Mark was a disciple of Peter, and bishop of Alexandria in Egypt but the church was founded by Peter and Paul in 42AD, about the time the gospel of St Mark was written.


The universal church is termed Catholic. Catholic means universal. There is no Catholic church anymore in that sense. Roman catholic is not Catholic by that definition and they know that, people just call them that. The body of Christ is the Church, His Church and God defines that but many people have become and choose to remain 'catholics' because they would prefer to worship God in the same manner which the early christians and apostles did and most importantly believe what they also believed and not to be thrown by every wind of doctrine of the over 33,000. [/quotIn
I have a huge problem with the numerous denominations today. In fact my heart bleeds, but i can't and nobody can do anything about it, as the enemy must go about his eternal assignment on earth before being cast into hell.

My chief concern are those who will be led astray by the wolves masking as preachers of the gospel in the fold.
Can i call them innocent? Can i say that they do not know they are being lied to? well, that's my concern.

My principal point is that, the Church that Jesus instituted was One, and it operated in unity sharing things together. Yes, I know that from back then, Satan began his divide and rule policy of sectionalizing the church by making some identify themselves as Paul's, and some as Apollo's, but that was killed by Paul. For neither Paul or Apollos died for anyone. The church belongs to Christ and shd adhere strictly to His teachings.

But we are not able to kill that today becos we have allowed it eat deep into use.

Am not concerned with the Church's leadership of whether they were Bishops or deacons, am interested with what they allowed and are still allowing today.

How does Peter's Bones being preserved where adds anything to the salvation of souls or living a godly life?

Idolatry is what will make anyone wants to keep Peter's bones and what purpose does it serve?

Am not interested in the Universality of Catholicism, am interested in the church which teaches the word of God Pure and True.

Let Love rule.

We cant claim to love God if we do not love Man. Man here includes every one who walks on four, talks and have the potentials of becoming a believer in Christ tomorrow.