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blueAgent:



You think Christainity is Atheism that is inconsistent?.

The Bible is misinterpreted by billions of people including clergy men.

achorladey:
@Analice107 JWs do not believe in Spirit yet they believe in God. How can you reconcile that? From this statement above it proves Wilgrea claim that you a fine example of a dogma. Please its always good to confirm and verify your claims before you spread inspired falsehood.

otemanuduno:
makes no sense. What then is the work of the Holy Sule Spirit?

Wilgrea7:
As thesixthsense said, i have been doing and am still doing research on the doctrines of the church fathers... but for now I'm concentrating on the hell part... it seems it was st Augustine who due to his greek knowledge introduced Plato's concept of the immortal soul.. before then there had been more annihilationist.. the battle of either annihilation or eternal torment has been there throughout the times. eternal torment on the other hand came in about 400-500 AD.. people like Ignatius wrote texts.. some which seem to support annihilation while relatively fewer others seeming to support eternal torment. apart from a verse in Judith, all other Apocryptic books all point to everlasting destruction. also, the concept of everlasting destruction(annihilation) in opposition to eternal torment was also supported and in line with the Jewish taknah, the dead sea scrolls, gospel of barnabas etc.. also, contrary to the orthodox belief of eternal torment which was later forced into the early orthodox, the founder of orthodox believed in universalism (salvation of everyone). some early church fathers held this view stating the fire of God was "wise" and it would be meant for purification and not eternal torment... before st Augustine, the church did not believe in an immortal soul.. it was taught that only the righteous that would receive immortality as a gift.. this of course is in line with the scripture.. whereas when Augustine brought in his platonic doctrine of the immortal soul, he stated that even the souls of the lost are immortal.. this contradicting the scripture which said only the king of kings and the lord of lords hath immortality. his non biblical platonic view of the soul and the non-scriptural Dante's inferno greatly fuelled the eternal torment doctrine which he forced and later became the teachings of mainstream Christianity... but after a while when the bible was canonised, people started studying it and coming up with the views of annihilation, ceasing to exist after death, and universalism. although if it comes to written texts(dead sea scrolls, Jewish taknah, etc) all have a major support for annihilation.

Scholar8200:

Remember that it speaks of torment? Can a lifeless being be tormented?

This verse mention carcasses just as Revelations 20:12 talks of the dead standing before God and were judged. Besides, if the fires would eradicate why would it leave the carcasses?

Sir, perhaps if it had said their ashes (like we would find in man's Gehenna) would be an abhorrence I should rest my case.

blueAgent:



Even the Devil the originator of Evil will be burnt to ashes.

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes [size=18pt]upon the earth[/size] in the sight of all them that behold thee. 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

TheSixthSense:
Wow! great. You know way more than I do. I haven't read Augustine but I heard almost everything that led to the reformation and also Calvinism can be traced back to his teachings. My view of hell is in line with what the orthodox believe, which is described differently but it is eternal. I am not for universalism. Christianity isn't. The thief at the cross entered paradise immediately after his death because if he didn't and is asleep until the day of resurrection, then veneration, intercessions of the saints and praying for the dead becomes void. The same applies with the Rich man and Lazarus story that immediately the rich man and Lazarus died, Lazarus went to heaven and the rich man hell where although Abraham sort of had compassion, the chasm between them was too great and impossible to cross. It is in line with no unclean thing shall enter heaven. The day of resurrection is thus interpreted as the final judgment and what the rich man was experiencing was a foretaste of what is to come. Eschatology is the mother of all heresies I pay little attention to it. My family and I are not going wherever the rich man is.

achorladey:
If Romans 6:7 says those dying are acquitted of their sins. Meaning they are free from the sins they committed throughout their lifetime. Isn't it? Then, what will be their charges or what further charges(sin) will be levied against them that will warrant being tormented forever in hell fire? Where will those charges come from?

Scholar8200:

As regards the highlighted, be reminded that the chapter here was addressed proximately to a mortal man (of course we see the ultimate fulfilment in the devil and his fall) hence words that describe the end of a mortal on earth are employed. As regards the devil and fellow tenants in the lake of fire see this:

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelations 14:10,11

NOWHERE do you find that this fire devours but the uniform picture all throughout Scripture is the Word torment (Lazarus and richman story inclusive). Why will the Bible find it hard to simply use devour if that is what is in mind?

Besides, the linking of their torment to the presence of the Lamb and the angels is a way of showing that the torment should continue as long as Those are Present!

blueAgent:


Thats Why Africans are mocked as been dumb.simple logic and you are still arguing over it.

Stop spreading false teachings. Even David the Man after God's Heart is still in the grave.

Acts 2:34 NKJV:
“For David did not ascend into the heavens,
but he says himself: ‘ The LORD said to my
Lord,“ Sit at My right

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

blueAgent:







No wonder you people misinterprete the Bible
you don't understand how Bible is written.
The one called “Lucifer” could not possibly be a
man. The things he did are impossible for any
human being to do. Only the devil “weakens the
nations” and could have said he would “ascend
into heaven.” Certainly no man could be “cut
down to the ground” in the way described here.
Finally, no man has a throne that could be put
above the “stars of heaven
Ezekiel 28:12-17 parallels and reinforces Isaiah
14, and is equally important for study. This
account describes one who some “scholars”
claim was a human “king of Tyrus.” Careful
reading shows this is impossible—and
ridiculous.
This verse speaks of one who “seals up the sum,
full of wisdom, perfect in beauty,” who had also
“been in Eden the garden of God.” No human has
ever been perfect, and it was the devil—the
serpent—who beguiled Eve in the Garden. Verse
13 states, “you were created,” and Satan is a
created being. Verse 14 calls him “the cherub
that covers.” (Exodus 25:17-20 describes the
remaining two faithful “cherubs that cover[ed]”
God’s throne in the Old Testament tabernacle.
Their wings cover the “mercy seat.”) No earthly
king fits this description.
The latter part of Ezekiel 28:14 says that this
“king” was “in the mountain of God” and
“walked…in the midst of the stones of fire.” This
describes the area around God’s throne. Verse
15 declares, “iniquity [lawlessness] was found in
you” and verse 16 refers to it as “sin.”
Verse 16 also describes this cherub as having
been “cast…out of” heaven. God also said He
would “destroy” (Hebrew: expel) Lucifer from
heaven. Verse 17 reveals that his “heart was lifted
up because of [his] beauty” and that his wisdom
was “corrupted…by reason of [his] brightness.”
The verse ends with God “casting him down to
the ground,” where the kings of the earth would
“behold him.”

Scholar8200:
Sorry to interfere, however ignore if found pathetic.

Remember Jesus said God is not the God of the dead but of the living referring to when He was referred to as God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Besides, Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount of transfiguration. Moreover, was Jesus mistaken about His description of the after life in the story of Lazarus and the Richman?

Scholar8200:
It will be very mistaken to over look the following:

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:1

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ezekiel 28:2

To consider those passages while ignoring the proximate reference is as false as doing so while ignoring the ultimate reference!

blueAgent:


Thats Why Africans are mocked as been dumb.simple logic and you are still arguing over it.

Stop spreading false teachings. Even David the Man after God's Heart is still in the grave.

Acts 2:34 NKJV:
“For David did not ascend into the heavens,
but he says himself: ‘ The LORD said to my
Lord,“ Sit at My right

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

blueAgent:



Look with God all things are possible.God decided to raise Moses and Elijah for reasons best known to him.
The most important fact is that the Bible clearly states that a dead person has no thought or action.Even dead was looking forth to that day when God will raise him. accept God's word


Psalms > Chapter 17 > Verse 15
As for me, I will behold your face in
righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with your likeness.

blueAgent:



You have already contradicted yourself.
The first verse talks about prince of tyrus.

Most likely another rebellous Demon.
the second King of Tyrus refers to the Devil.
Do you think it was only the Devil who rebelled against God?

achorladey:
@Analice107 Do you know that one of the foremost Bible verse the JWs read whenever they study the Bible with people concerning God is John 4:24? Pick up any of their books, brochures or magazine that are of study aid and go straight to the Topics that reads WHO IS GOD. If that verse is not there. Otherwise you remain a dogma as Wilgrea rightly confirm and your ignorance is as bright as the day.

analice107:

Hahahahahahahaha. Yes i can provide all the verses.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis:1:27

Ask yourself, Which is the image which God created man in?

Visible or invisible image?

Is God Visible, is God material?

Is He tangible, can you see and hold Him?

If no, in which image did he create Adam?

Answer that.

@ bold , to see how sensible you are .. was he telling spirits to be fruitful and multiply ?

was he telling spirits , I give plants to you as FOOD ?

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis:2:6

And the LORD God "formed" man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis:2:7


Note: When he created them, he created them Male and female and called them MAN,
But when he FORMED, He formed only the Male man, until later did he take the female man (Eve)from the male man (Adam).

When God FORMED the physical tangible visible Man, that form was lifeless until God breath his essence into man then that Form, 'man' became a living Soul.

May this meat not be too tough for you to chew.

Scholar8200:
But since Jesus affirmed that God is not the God of the dead but of the living (referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob milleniums after they had died) and also gave us the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it is obvious that, though the mortals on earth may say such has been laid to rest, actually more goes on behind the scenes.

To hold a different position is to charge Jesus with wrong teaching.

achorladey:
@BlueAgent You said when man is resurrected he will be punished. On what charges will that be based on? Why do you think God will want to waste his time/power to raise such unfaithful ones?

achorladey:
@BlueAgent Dead man cannot indeed pay debt. Man never had to in any case. He is to receive Death as his wages for uncountable sins.

Scholar8200:
King of Babylon was a man . Yes, there are parts of that passage that pertains to the devil however, we must not lose sight that a man is the proximate reference.


Can you prove this, that the prince of tyrus was first and primarily the devil? Agreed, there are parts of this prophecy that clearly points to the devil but my stress is that we dont remove the proximate reference as being a man.

Benson Commentary
Ezekiel 28:2. Say to the prince of Tyrus — The name of this prince was Ithobalus, according to the Phenician annals. Because thy heart is lifted up — In pride and self-conceit; and thou hast said — Namely, in thy heart; I am a god — I am like a god. I sit in the seat of God — Inaccessible by mortals. In the midst of the seas — As God is safe from all injury in his throne in heaven, so am I as safe; for the sea secures me. These words express an insolent boast of self-sufficiency, as if he had said, I fear no man, nor stand in need of any: I am seated in a place of impregnable strength: the sea defends me, so that no enemy can assault me.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
That thou shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon,.... Or "concerning" him, his fall, and the fall of the Babylonish monarchy with him; if we understand this of any particular king of Babylon, it seems best not to interpret it of Nebuchadnezzar, whom Jerom mentions, in whom the empire was in its greatest glory: but of Belshazzar, in whom it ended; the king of Babylon may be here considered as a type of antichrist

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/28-2.htm

Ken4Christ:
Scriptures pointing to eternal torment are overwhelming in number and trying to dispute them with other Scriptures is a high level of dishonesty.

First, not every word found written in the Bible are the word of God. There are instances men wrote their minds and they were recorded. So, trying to use some of those words as doctrines is highly misleading.

For instance during the trial period of Job, he said so many things which some people till date take them to be the word of God. See one of them,

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

But Jesus revealed to us that it is the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy but he has come to give us life in abundance - John 10:10.

So, concerning the issue of eternal destiny in general, the Saints of old had limited knowledge and therefore even made some wrong assertions on the issue.

Jesus is the truth. So, if you want to argue honestly on this issue, limit your quote to what Jesus taught on the issue. Otherwise remain silent for ever.

The old Testament was a shadow of the new Testament. It couldn't explain spiritual truth clearly.
This is exactly what Jesus came to do.

Go through Jesus teachings on eternal destiny, you will certainly not have any doubt about eternal torment of lost souls. I will just downloaded a few of them for your consumption

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, INTO THE FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED

Luke 16-25
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS , and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING Fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGEL

Revelation 19:20 And the BEAST was taken, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. THESE BOTH WERE CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the DEVIL that deceived them was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET ARE, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that at least 1,000 years have elapsed before the Devil was cast into the Lake of fire that already has the beast and the false prophet. Why did the fire not burn the beast and the false prophet to ashes after 1,000 years before the devil joined them? Read the account very well. The beast and the false prophet were both cast into the Lake of fire before Jesus millennium reign on earth. The devil joined them after the 1,000 years of Christ reign.

Revelation 20:11-15.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. note

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

With all these witnesses, anyone who denies the existence of eternal torment needs to visit a psychiatrist. Fear God and depart from evil. God is both the God of love and also the God of judgment.