Introduction

In this thread, I desire to pursue a discussion with HardMirror on the Christian gospel. I hope to shed light on Christianity from a perspective that was totally alien to HardMirror's experience that led to his renouncing his faith.

My objective is not to convert him to Christianity again. My objective is to pursue understanding and which God might wish to bless in the days to come. To furnish this discussion, I'll present three papers I have written directly or indirectly in reaction to HardMirror testimony. I desire you read them carefully and state your observation.

Wherever I might have gotten you wrong, please indicate and let's examine those facts together. Then I'm open to your questions as you have requested others ask questions. I hope I get to ask questions too. I also request for a veil of anonymous cover.

The first two papers, I wrote in direct response to your thread that made front page. The last paper I had written months ago when I first saw your story.

Others may comment on the thread but my priority for response is the person I have requested audience with. I hope HardMirror honors this invitation.

Paper 1: Pentecostalism and Rising Atheism

In my series #AnalyzingPentecostalism, I discussed about increasing atheism among Nigerian youths. I explained that our young people who are intelligent and forward looking are no longer deceived by the façade of religion that had held their parents captive. Yesterday, the story of a young man with the monicker “HardMirror” hit the front page of Nairaland. This is HardMirror's (HM) story in summary:

HM grew up in a middle class Nigerian family unit like many of us. Throughout his nursery, primary and secondary school days, he was exposed to Christian themes and subsequently claimed conversion to Christianity after watching a certain movie of Jesus. HM would eventually gain admission into the Federal University of Technology, Akure (He refuses to tell his course so that he doesn’t blow his anonymous cover). While there, he is part of an Anglican Student’s Fellowship. Soon enough, HM is seen among his pairs as a very charismatic fellow and is increasingly given preaching roles. In his preaching, HM is blessed with incredible Charismatic gifts of the Spirit. He is able to exercise word of knowledge and wisdom, and he claims to see miracles occur in his ministrations.

HM is being used mightily by God. He tells the story of how he converted an atheist on campus and that he led no less than a thousand people to saving knowledge in Christ. However the turning point came in HM ministry and they had to do with the very charismata he had exalted in his ministry and relations with God.

He and his fellow students carried out a crusade to a village. The people of that village are idol worshippers. The head of the village was blind. The crusade was very successful with hundreds coming to Christ and many claims to the miraculous. In the frenzy, many of the people cast out their idols and burnt them. The blind village head did the same. However, the students felt their mission was not complete until they saw the blind man healed. They prayed for hours, nothing happened. They questioned the man’s faith and HM claims he can still hear the man’s chilling and desperate cry for help in Yoruba “moni gbagbo…” (I have faith). The man was not healed and in frustration, they left him to his fate.

The second incidence was another crusade in another village. HM and a brother had gone around to invite people. They met a boy in a house who indicated to them that he was dumb. They decided to pray for him and lo and behold, the dumb spoke. They were excited. Later they saw the boy at the crusade healing line. They asked his parents why they were there since the boy was healed already. The father said that the “ba, ba, be, be…” sound they heard from that boy was the same he had being uttering since he was a child and he is now 12. HM faith was shaken.

On completing school and far away from the hysteria of fellowship and the false classification of “man of God” he had lived by, he examined his faith closely. He discovered that most claims to miracles were false; they were magic, with the best tricksters having the highest congregation. He also discovered inconsistencies in the Bible. He resorted to one Pastor Charles of the Dream Centre branch of Olusola Areogun's churches in Akure and had a long discussion with him. At the end, despite a lot of assurances from the Pastor, he concluded that Christianity was a fraud and renounced it. Today, HM is a raving atheist and his thread on Nairaland is pulling more of such folks to that faith.

My Point:

I am not making a case for atheism. I am simply reiterating the often made point in my article “Rising Atheism” that Pentecostalism thrives on a very faulty foundation and many of our youths are discovering it and are renouncing Christianity all together.

Christianity does not promise anyone health and wealth. Christianity is not signs and wonders. Christianity is not noise.

Christianity is a living faith in Jesus Christ. This faith takes two forms: the subjective and the objective. The objective position of the Christian faith is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, following repentance of one’s sins. It requires an intellectual grasp of God’s truth and an increasing understanding of that truth. An intellectual grasp is then further exemplified by practical Christian living. This leads to the subjective.

The subjective part of the Christian faith is a heart witness that we are children of God. It is the blessing of the Holy Spirit on the heart that gives us assurance of our relations with God and a hope of a life to come. This witness of the Spirit grows as we grow in both our intellectual understanding of the faith and in practical acts of charity.

This is where Pentecostalism looses people. Pentecostalism is primarily anti intellectual. It thrives on the mystical and the subjective. The very moment an objective view crashes on Pentecostalism, its adherents will renounce the Christian faith.

I see increasing atheism among Nigerian youths and much of it is coming from these young people discovering the lie behind the charismatic movements. Our Lord has called us to lead people to knowing and understanding God. In the process they will find saving faith. If their faith is built on shaky subjective and mystical experiences alone, the moment they discover it, the bold ones will renounce Christianity and we will have a HardMirror in our hands.

There is the need for many in the charismatic and Pentecostal movement to examine their faith carefully to see whether they are indeed Christians. HM was a very charismatic person but had never met Jesus. This is why Christ sent those people away from him in Matthew 7 saying he didn't know them despite all the charismatic gifts they exercised.

Enough said.

Paper 2: Possessing Living Faith

Sequel to the HardMirror story I published yesterday, the only possible explanation that one can offer to why this young man renounced his Christian faith is this: he never possessed one in the first place. This gentleman had only always been a nominal Christian.

But how do you describe the speaking in tongues, the words of knowledge his manifested, the feats of deliverances, the hundreds he led to Christ, the supposed miracles and the twenty years of committed Pentecostal ministry and experiences? It is extremely difficult to explain but in this post, I will give my explanation and I will back it up with my conversion experience to shed light on what might have happened to HardMirror.

Without recourse to what David Oyedepo has turned the term into, the fact remains that there is such a thing as a “living faith” in Christ Jesus. A faith I sincerely doubt Oyedepo possesses. But that not my contention today. The phrase “living faith” is not one that is found in the Bible but the meaning is stated everywhere in scriptures. When Peter wrote about being born again of an incorruptible seed, he was pointing at the living faith. When Paul spoke about the circumcision of the heart, he was pointing at this term. When Jesus said a man must be born of the Spirit and of water in John 3, he was referring this faith. And God promised Israel that a day will come when he will write his laws upon the hearts of his people and remove their stony hearts, while replacing it with a heart of flesh; he was talking about the living faith that he would establish in men through the new covenant, founded upon the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross.

The next question to ask is this: how then do men possess living faith in Christ? The answer to this question is the reason for the plethora of false conversion in the churches. I’ll begin with the negative. No man can willfully possess this faith. No man can “give his life to Christ” as many Pentecostal revivalist have turned it into. No one can come to God except he is drawn first, as Christ said in John 6. We do not get this living faith; rather we are GIVEN this living faith. The process of true conversion, from beginning to end, is the work of God’s grace on the hearts of sinners in bringing them to repentance and faith. That is why the worst thing that happened to the good initiative of revivalism is to enjoin “decisions” on people. The result had been a people swayed simply by emotions and coming to nominal faith in God. It is made worse in Pentecostal assemblies because religious experiences like tongues give the adherents a false sense of conversion. How then can men possess this faith?

No one can place living faith in the heart of any man. No one can “give his life to Christ”, except Christ gives his life to you. The only thing that the Christian church can do in this process of bringing men to living faith in God to pray and to preach. Jesus said we should pray the Lord of the harvest to send labourers. He alone can send labourers and even in the process of our labour, he alone can bring forth a harvest. As we pray, we must preach. And that is where the mystery lies. God has ordained that men will be saved only by the instrumentation of preaching. As people listen to godly messages, their minds will be influenced and their thought processes will change and if God wishes, he grants them repentance and faith in Christ. There is no method to it. How individual men are saved will differ. The Spirit that brings conversion is like the wind, we do not see it but we only see its effect of his working on men’s heart. This is why the worst thing that can happen to the church is for us to have a false gospel in our midst; for then men will not be saved. For God would have withdrawn his “saving and sanctifying grace from the churches” – using the words of Conrad Mbewe. HardMirror story has finally brought an answer to my own conversion story.

In 1998, I was brought to faith through the preaching of a dear brother. In the room that day the brother gave me a “word of knowledge” which did come to pass with time. Without knowing a thing about me, he said I was having difficulties with my CGPA in school but that God will turn things around for me. That prophetic insight broke me up and I surrendered to Christ. Now I know that I possibly was not saved through that experience. My salvation will come later that same year. By the way, I finished engineering with the best improved result in the whole faculty. That young man’s words did came to pass.

In God’s good Providence, I came across a book written by Dr. R. T. Kendall titled “Worshipping God”. It was Kendall that introduced me to Reformed Theology. After enumerating various ways of worshipping God, he came to a chapter called “The Joy of Doing Nothing”. He said there that the greatest worship we can offer to God is just to sit and watch him do his thing: do nothing. He said that God is pleased to do certain things in our lives that will so put us in awe of him that even saying thank you will seem like balancing the favour. Then he explained the concept of “justification by faith” and said that understanding our being saved by grace alone and not by any work of righteousness, is one of such experiences of doing nothing but worshipping God in awe and wonder. He said that is what heaven will be like.

Those thoughts led me to study the Pauline theologies in depth. I looked closely at Romans and Galatians, and somewhere and sometimes while studying, I understood what it means to simply trust God in child like faith for my salvation. I was born again. I had come to possess living faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus said that the way to heaven is narrow and few will find it. It is narrow not because it is difficult but because very few people are in possession of living faith in Christ. The vast majority of Christendom possess nominal faith in Christ. That is why we have such little assurance of salvation among God’s people. That is why we have such a love for a false gospel in our midst because genuine faith will create an aversion in you for what is not truth.

I spend time to speak about religion on my timeline because I desire that my readers will possess this living faith. The best I can do is to preach; God alone can give living faith. I sincerely pray this that as you read this you will come to understand your true state with God. If you are a sinner, that you find repentance and faith by his Spirit. If you a saint that you rejoice in the grace of God that had saved you.

O, God, grant living faith to my readers. Amen.

Paper 3: Rising Atheism

More and more young people are ditching religion altogether and increasingly resorting to atheism. This reality was brought home to me some two years ago when atheists almost overran the religion section of Nairaland. They began to even ask for their own section – claiming a new type of religion. The anonymous nature of the forum afforded them the liberty to express their thoughts. Seun Osewa, the owner of the forum, himself had renounced Christianity and the thread were he told his story was a bestseller of some sort.

While many people vilify atheism in our nation, one must appreciate the fact that it takes a great deal to be one and those who profess atheism are about the soundest and most rational human beings. Man is by default religious. To throw away that default position requires a great deal of study and boldness. In the long run, atheism is another religion – a religion without a god. One of the greatest books in my library is “Loosing the Bonds” by Andrew Kirk. It is a book dedicated to studying different religions. He dedicates some chapters to atheism.

Kirk discusses three men that changed the face of modern sociology. They are Karl Marx, Frederich Nitchzhe and Sigmund Freud. Marx gave us Socialism and Communism. Nitchzhe suggested that “God is dead”. He invented the “Superman” and his thoughts brought about fascism. Freud developed modern psychiatry. All of them great men but all of them avowed atheists. Kirk argued in his book that there was a great deal Christians could learn from atheists’ criticism of religion and if Christians will do this, they will be the better for it.

It is my humble submission in view of all these that Pentecostalism is adding to rising atheism in the land. While it may not be the primary cause, it is a major contributing factor. Why? Pentecostalism is anti intellectual. It is highly subjective and very non rational. It thrives on a belief in miracles in a world of science and technology. Pentecostalism just does not fit the aggressive and progressive mind of Nigerian youths and thus it is increasingly thrown into the dustbin. This might have been my fate had I not possessed something in my knowledge of God beyond bland subjectivity.

This leads me to why true Christianity ought to appeal to an atheist. The true Christian religion is founded on sound knowledge. The Christian faith is possessed of true understanding of God before any subjective experience of God. With the coming of the 16th century Reformation, Christianity took on a new knowledge base. Even Roman Catholic scholasticism came to life. The Protestant religion brought light to Europe; it opened the search for knowledge in science and birth the industrial revolution of the 19th century that gave us modern science. Therefore the true Christian faith shares a great deal with atheists and if they will listen to the gospel, they will end up by far greater Christian scholars than many. Case in point: C. S. Lewis.

The man who gave us Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, is a raving atheist. But all of us religious people use his invention to promote our views. In my first interview with Edmund Obilo, he confessed on live Radio that he cannot remember when last he was in church. There is no better broadcaster than him in Ibadan. I remember approaching some senior citizens to invite them to attend my fellowship. They told me that religion sets people back. It deters their thinking. It doesn’t promote intellectualism. I just sat there watching.

You cannot sell signs, wonders and miracles to 21st century thinkers – it is just simply out of date. And my findings shows that even the God of the Bible has outdated miracles. Instead he has blessed man with such resounding knowledge that if my generation will spend less time at Redeem Camp and other prayer camps, we will find the cure to AIDS, Cancer and other debilitating diseases of our time. While at the same time adding to the science revolution and increase our nation’s gross productivity. Thereby creating jobs and wealth for the people. This is the type of work the gospel encourages; work that produces better feeding! He that will not work cannot eat!! Let us wake up. The atheists are challenging us.

I am not promoting atheism here. I am simply saying that Pentecostalism and many other religion that thrive on the subjective are adding nothing to science and modern thinkers have no time for such nonsense. I am also saying that the true Christian faith is highly intellectual. It appeals to the mind as it convinces the sinner of a need for a Savior.

The born again person however does not then sell his brain to the church, rather he becomes a thinker. Whether he is a theologian, a scientist, a technologist, a broadcaster, a writer, or even a politician, he brings in a finesse of knowledge into his profession that adds to it. Christians are already disciplined individuals and thus can use their time for productive ventures. This is the reason why early scientists were mostly Christians.

There is increasing atheism in the land and I hereby present the gospel to these folks as a sound alternative to the mere religion they are raging against.

CC: TheSixthSense, HardMirror, lalasticlala

Wonderful!!! to me as a Christian this is really an eye opener.With the way Christianity is being practised,truly we are breeding in more and more atheist unconsciously.Op God bless you for this I would like to read some of your books especially on the holy spirit if you don't mind.May God pour down his spirit of understanding upon us.Amen.

https://www.nairaland.com/3477844/christians-point-out-hardmirrors-lies/2#51312246

Please visit that link,
The guy is a fraud.
He has been exposed.

This hardmirror guy is now the talk of the moment. He effectively dealt a great blow in the christian world.

They keep lagos licking their wounds.

It's refreshing to see a NL christian @GeneralTee post comments which is not any way in favour of atheism but in a very mature way and devoid of insults. I can certainly discuss with people like that. Sadly, a certain group of christians on Nairaland are the masters of ad hominems. (A few NL atheists are guilty of these too ) You do not counter arguments with ad hominems, while it may look that you are good at insulting every person you meet you still have not addressed the message or the argument the atheist is making hence, the below quote:

GeneralTee:
Paper 3: Rising Atheism
More and more young people are ditching religion altogether and increasingly resorting to atheism. This reality was brought home to me some...

If only this group realised that many NL visitors can discern from a thread who is making a logical and convincing point and the one who is just throwing Ad hominems left, right and center.

Maybe I should comment on this thread since the person in charge proves to be an advocate of sanity and rationale.


I was brought up in a Christian family, every member of my family is a "core" Christian, I found myself to be categorized under them (Christians) but as young (about 13-16) as I was, I never liked going to church, I didn't know why.

I'll even prefer playing football. sometimes, I'll happen to be in church only when dad must have threatened hell if I hadn't and even when I'll go, I'll go very late (not intentionally) but I would just find myself going late and would always sit behind even when pews are empty.
I didn't understand why I had no zeal to attend church although sometimes I'll really want to but it never just happened.

Through my friends, I happened to attend Anglican and Catholic but I didn't quite understand what they were doing... it was ritualistic or sort of.

Now it as an adult, my concern with church and Christianity as a whole is eroding gradually as I advance. Christianity stuff doesn't interests me any longer.

If I should manage to go to church, I would either be sleeping at intervals, browsing, playing games or reading one article or the other while the sermon is on.

The problem is not that of Proverb 23:6 or 22:6 or 6:23...whichever but it talks about bringing up a child in the way he should go etc. My parents did their best to raise me up in the Christian way as can be seen in the lives of my sisters but he didn't just work out.

I happen to be intelligent, I seldom lose an argument ( I know it is unethical), I possess other characteristics which is not why I'm here to tell, but I'm very humble, quiet or do I say an introvert who always look at things critically.

Now, my problem is not that I want to be an atheist (after all, I still pray to God), my problem is not that I don't wish to be God's instrument per say. My problem is not that I detests all church doctrines or Christianity teachings or biblical views of things.

My problem is that I have many questions...very many questions without answers that even the so called atheists have not been able to answer neither has high reputable men of God. And these questions had made Christianity to be something I "know not what". I don't understand it.

If atheists could answer my questions, I would be an atheist.

Meanwhile, a few questions for the atheists:
"If we don't believe in any religion, if we don't believe in God,
if we would account our existence to no one, if we believe in nothing, if we are free thinkers, Why do we have to come together in the name of "Atheists" and who are we coming together against?? Why do we come together as persons of common thought when we are supposedly called free thinkers??

Coming together against religion or God or whichever deity makes us an indirect faction who actually believes in something and that thing is undebutably called religion and that means that we are fighting religion with religion unconsciously and if this is the case, why then does the word atheism exists??"
Why? Why?? Why??"

The bottom line is that if everyone is a free thinker, then no two persons must think the same and hence no coming together under a particular name.


Please, I need answers...

I've read a lot of threads where Christians are arguing with atheists and I wonder to what end? Are you interested in winning the argument or winning the guy's soul? If you can't convince the guy, why not shut up? Do you think you can defend God? Do you imagine that you're actually fighting for God?

I even came across some Christians salivating at the thought of watching atheists burn in hell for ever!!?? SMH!

Christ said no man can come to him except God draws him and that's why I believe the best anybody can do after reasoning with atheists (as GeneralTee wants to do with hardmirror) is to allow God do the work he alone can do.

Pentecostal nonsense and charismatic madness have truly wrecked havoc on Christianity. Imagine Christians bragging about the number of self identifying Christian individuals in the world forgetting that Christ said narrow is the way and FEW will find it. If youll be honest with yourself, do you a JW consider catholics christians? Do you a Chosen member consider Christ embassy christian? Does the deeper life not see the LFC as an infidel fit for hell? I remember Adeboye (I'm not a fan) even saying once that in one holy ghost congress, God showed him less than a thousand RCCG members making heaven at last. This might be an exaggeration but it paints a picture.

Like I told one of the rabid gods-of-men defenders I used to spar with in 2013 that after following the "atheist deconversion" thread of 2013, I realised the problem wasn't those abandoning Christianity; the problem was with Christians and the church.

I wish GeneralTee well on this thread and I'll advice Christians to have the candour to admit they don't know than try to twist their way out of any inquiry. Jesus didn't commission you to lie for him. You turn many to atheism when you do.

Deut 29:29 makes me realise that we will never understand everything this side of eternity. We should be humble enough to admit this.

Also I see a lot of young folks on here who out of frustration, claim atheism. They dwell on so much negativity that you have to wonder what has prevented them from ending it all. Pls even if you don't believe in God or you're angry with God, strive to make something of yourself. There's a lot of beautiful things and people in life that are worth your time and attention, pls spend time on them and give your life a meaning. Your society needs it.

God bless all of una o

kevoh:


If only this group realised that many NL visitors can discern from a thread who is making a logical and convincing point and the one who is just throwing Ad hominems left, right and center.

so You noticed to? but if he didn't result to it He wouldn't be a Good Christian Na...

Bluezy13:
Maybe I should comment on this thread since the person in charge proves to be an advocate of sanity and rationale.


I was brought up in a Christian family, every member of my family is a "core" Christian, I found myself to be categorized under them (Christians) but as young (about 13-16) as I was, I never liked going to church, I didn't know why.

I'll even prefer playing football. sometimes, I'll happen to be in church only when dad must have threatened hell if I hadn't and even when I'll go, I'll go very late (not intentionally) but I would just find myself going late and would always sit behind even when pews are empty.
I didn't understand why I had no zeal to attend church although sometimes I'll really want to but it never just happened.

Through my friends, I happened to attend Anglican and Catholic but I didn't quite understand what they were doing... it was ritualistic or sort of.

Now it as an adult, my concern with church and Christianity as a whole is eroding gradually as I advance. Christianity stuff doesn't interests me any longer.

If I should manage to go to church, I would either be sleeping at intervals, browsing, playing games or reading one article or the other while the sermon is on.

The problem is not that of Proverb 23:6 or 22:6 or 6:23...whichever but it talks about bringing up a child in the way he should go etc. My parents did their best to raise me up in the Christian way as can be seen in the lives of my sisters but he didn't just work out.

I happen to be intelligent, I seldom lose an argument ( I know it is unethical), I possess other characteristics which is not why I'm here to tell, but I'm very humble, quiet or do I say an introvert who always look at things critically.

Now, my problem is not that I want to be an atheist (after all, I still pray to God), my problem is not that I don't wish to be God's instrument per say. My problem is not that I detests all church doctrines or Christianity teachings or biblical views of things.

you do not need to become an atheist...
You can be a deist etc

My problem is that I have many questions...very many questions without answers that even the so called atheists have not been able to answer neither has high reputable men of God. And these questions had made Christianity to be something I "know not what". I don't understand it.

If atheists could answer my questions, I would be an atheist.

Meanwhile, a few questions for the atheists:
"If we don't believe in any religion, if we don't believe in God,
if we would account our existence to no one, if we believe in nothing, if we are free thinkers, Why do we have to come together in the name of "Atheists" and who are we coming together against?? Why do we come together as persons of common thought when we are supposedly called free thinkers??

nobody comes together in the sense that you speak of...
The only common binding is simply the disbelief...
Atheists do not have a doctrine or some sort to agree on..

Coming together against religion or God or whichever deity makes us an indirect faction who actually believes in something and that thing is undebutably called religion and that means that we are fighting religion with religion unconsciously and if this is the case, why then does the word atheism exists??"
Why? Why?? Why??"

it just exists..because theism and religion are major factions of life...just a way of identification....for easier warefa..not a necessity..
There's no name for people who dont play football..

the word atheism exists..not as a conflict/opposite to religion but theism...

The bottom line is that if everyone is a free thinker, then no two persons must think the same and hence no coming together under a particular name.


Please, I need answers...

atheists are free thinkers..likewise deists...a free thinker does not mean you cant have a similar view with another person...its just means you form your own opinions..
And like i said..there's no doctrine or dogma or any belief binding atheists together...the only bond is the disbelief...and a disbelief is not a thing

i think you have a wrong meaning of atheism.
Shalom!

Thank you all for the comments.

Still awaiting HardMirror two days since my invitation. I do not believe that he was lying in his bestseller thread but would his avoiding genuine discussions like the one I'm proposing not lend a hand to his accusers?

I await your response HM.

GeneralTee:
Thank you all for the comments.

Still awaiting HardMirror two days since my invitation. I do not believe that he was lying in his bestseller thread but would his avoiding genuine discussions like the one I'm proposing not lend a hand to his accusers?

I await your response HM.

Your Wait just began, for you won't see him.

Hardmirror is an undergraduate of FUTA who has being having pastoral fantasies to the extent that he fabricated his 'Pastor to Atheist' story. He is not worth the effort. He knows nothing about christianity other than the usual atheist roundabout arguments. He has been exposed. https://www.nairaland.com/3477844/christians-point-out-hardmirrors-lies/10#51350321

GeneralTee:
Thank you all for the comments.

Still awaiting HardMirror two days since my invitation. I do not believe that he was lying in his bestseller thread but would his avoiding genuine discussions like the one I'm proposing not lend a hand to his accusers?

I await your response HM.

Bluezy13:
Maybe I should comment on this thread since the person in charge proves to be an advocate of sanity and rationale.


I was brought up in a Christian family, every member of my family is a "core" Christian, I found myself to be categorized under them (Christians) but as young (about 13-16) as I was, I never liked going to church, I didn't know why.

I'll even prefer playing football. sometimes, I'll happen to be in church only when dad must have threatened hell if I hadn't and even when I'll go, I'll go very late (not intentionally) but I would just find myself going late and would always sit behind even when pews are empty.
I didn't understand why I had no zeal to attend church although sometimes I'll really want to but it never just happened.

Through my friends, I happened to attend Anglican and Catholic but I didn't quite understand what they were doing... it was ritualistic or sort of.

Now it as an adult, my concern with church and Christianity as a whole is eroding gradually as I advance. Christianity stuff doesn't interests me any longer.

If I should manage to go to church, I would either be sleeping at intervals, browsing, playing games or reading one article or the other while the sermon is on.

The problem is not that of Proverb 23:6 or 22:6 or 6:23...whichever but it talks about bringing up a child in the way he should go etc. My parents did their best to raise me up in the Christian way as can be seen in the lives of my sisters but he didn't just work out.

I happen to be intelligent, I seldom lose an argument ( I know it is unethical), I possess other characteristics which is not why I'm here to tell, but I'm very humble, quiet or do I say an introvert who always look at things critically.

Now, my problem is not that I want to be an atheist (after all, I still pray to God), my problem is not that I don't wish to be God's instrument per say. My problem is not that I detests all church doctrines or Christianity teachings or biblical views of things.

My problem is that I have many questions...very many questions without answers that even the so called atheists have not been able to answer neither has high reputable men of God. And these questions had made Christianity to be something I "know not what". I don't understand it.

If atheists could answer my questions, I would be an atheist.

Meanwhile, a few questions for the atheists:
"If we don't believe in any religion, if we don't believe in God,
if we would account our existence to no one, if we believe in nothing, if we are free thinkers, Why do we have to come together in the name of "Atheists" and who are we coming together against?? Why do we come together as persons of common thought when we are supposedly called free thinkers??

Coming together against religion or God or whichever deity makes us an indirect faction who actually believes in something and that thing is undebutably called religion and that means that we are fighting religion with religion unconsciously and if this is the case, why then does the word atheism exists??"
Why? Why?? Why??"

The bottom line is that if everyone is a free thinker, then no two persons must think the same and hence no coming together under a particular name.


Please, I need answers...

I like your post.

Now concerning your question, I can answer it since I am an agnostic and a freethinker.

We atheists or agnostics didn't give our selves that name. You will hardly see any Christian that calls himself theist or a Christian that knows the meaning of the word theist. It is a philosophical description, and the same philosophers describe non believers in that same way.

Consider this scenario, if me and you happen to live in a village. And in that village Every One believes that when a woman is on her period, if you touch her you will die. In this situation, we all know that such a belief is wrong, if we go against the norm of such a belief, we eventually find ourselves being persecuted, what will be the smart thing to do? Won't it be smart for all the rational people to unite against folly.

Coming to your question, as a freethinker, whether you like it or not you are under the influence of a very religious world. The Abrahamic religions are not like the eastern religions. The Abrahamic religions are exclusive, totalitarian and power hungry. They have the ability to politically influence any environment they are accepted in.

We atheists do not have a religion and the only reason we seem to be together on NL is because we share the same intellectual view points. Is it a crime to share or see things the same way?
Religious people don't share intellectual view points but they share the same beliefs.

I don't know where you heard that atheists don't believe in anything. Atheists believe when they have proof if something, religious people choose to believe and their belief leads to them come under one lifestyle and authority.

If you claim we are one because we believe in something then consider the following beliefs and tell me whether the fact that we share them makes us under one umbrella

1. The belief that falling from over 200 feet is fatal
2. The belief that reckless driving kills
3. The belief that cancer is dangerous
4. The belief that the earth is round and that it revolves around the sun
5. The belief that humans don't live past 150 years
6. The belief that fire is harmful to human beings

Consider the beliefs above, do we need to be in a singular group because we believe those. Do we need to be in a cult to believe those? We arrive at those beliefs because we have intellectual capacity. We might live different lives, have different desires but still share those beliefs , does it mean that we are now part of one religion because we share those beliefs?

TheSixthSense:
Hardmirror is an undergraduate of FUTA who has being having pastoral fantasies to the extent that he fabricated his 'Pastor to Atheist' story. He is not worth the effort. He knows nothing about christianity other than the usual atheist roundabout arguments. He has been exposed. https://www.nairaland.com/3477844/christians-point-out-hardmirrors-lies/10#51350321

The link you guided me to said nothing about him lying.

The opener called Christians to prove him as a liar. It is one thing to accuse someone as a liar, it is another thing to prove it. I consider disgusting that rather than looking at the merit and possibility of this young man's story, we will rather wave it aside with an unfounded allegation of lying. That shows to me that it is his accusers that are lying. Giving a dog a bad name to hang it.

So, sir, provide me links on that thread that showed folks proving hm a liar. Thanks.

The first 9 or so pages appeared as an unfair personal attack but it turned out to be the opposite. An investigation was carried out, even alumni of the fellowship were invited and his email correspondence posted. He fabricated everything. Hard to believe but it is clear for everyone to see.

GeneralTee:


The link you guided me to said nothing about him lying.

The opener called Christians to prove him as a liar. It is one thing to accuse someone as a liar, it is another thing to prove it. I consider disgusting that rather than looking at the merit and possibility of this young man's story, we will rather wave it aside with an unfounded allegation of lying. That shows to me that it is his accusers that are lying. Giving a dog a bad name to hang it.

So, sir, provide me links on that thread that showed folks proving hm a liar. Thanks.

I'm begining to like this hardmirror of a guy. If i eventually turn atheist, he'd be my bestie...
The way these christian dey accuse am, I begin wonder who really dey desperate
I'M CHRISTIAN THOUGH. Just threading the "path of destruction"
hopefully, I don't end there.

Certitude:
I'm begining to like this hardmirror of a guy. If i eventually turn atheist, he'd be my bestie...
The way these christian dey accuse am, I begin wonder who really dey desperate
I'M CHRISTIAN THOUGH. Just threading the "path of destruction"
hopefully, I don't end there.

If you want a sincere advice, DON'T BECOME AN ATHEIST.
Read your bible, pray and enjoy the friendship of christians (family and friends) but live your life to the fullest.

HardMirror:

If you want a sincere advice, DON'T BECOME AN ATHEIST.
Read your bible, pray and enjoy the friendship of christians (family and friends) but live your life to the fullest.

The irony of it is that I began to find religion repulsive when I found out that christians all have their own version of morality. Most even see nothing wrong in vices such as exam malpractices, indecent dressing, sexual immorality e.t.c, yet they speak in tongues and claim to have the holy spirit. You, being an atheist, may not see these as bad but i'm sure you would agree with me that those shouln't be associated with christians.
I am not one who crave a carefree life but the effort in maintaining salvation is steep. I mean my sin which I would totally own up to is listening to secular music and prolonged anger,
I also find the idea of the Holy Spirit or should I say the annoiting unappealing because it seems to be violent. I don't want to pass out or fall under annointing.

Certitude:

The irony of it is that I began to find religion repulsive when I found out that christians all have their own version of morality. Most even see nothing wrong in vices such as exam malpractices, indecent dressing, sexual immorality e.t.c, yet they speak in tongues and claim to have the holy spirit. You, being an atheist, may not see these as bad but i'm sure you would agree with me that those shouln't be associated with christians.
I am not one who crave a carefree life but the effort in maintaining salvation is steep. I mean my sin which I would totally own up to is listening to secular music and prolonged anger,
I also find the idea of the Holy Spirit or should I say the annoiting unappealing because it seems to be violent. I don't want to pass out or fall under annointing.

Seek knowledge. There are many freethinkers that maintain their christian lifestyle. It is good for you in some ways.

My friend, I'm sure you'll agree that lying is dishonorable and next to stealing. That's what your prospective bestie has been found out to be. I don't think I have ever done this but I have to make an exception for Hardmirror because I initially believed him before he was found out to be a fraud.
If you want to become an atheist, do your due diligence on research about the spiritual and Christianity and make the decision yourself. Becoming one because of this guy's fables is doing exactly what he set out to acheive. I was an atheist btw. There's nothing special about it. It's plain disbelief.

Certitude:

The irony of it is that I began to find religion repulsive when I found out that christians all have their own version of morality. Most even see nothing wrong in vices such as exam malpractices, indecent dressing, sexual immorality e.t.c, yet they speak in tongues and claim to have the holy spirit. You being an atheist may not see these as bad but i'm sure you would agree with me that those shouln't be associated with christians.
I not one who crave a carefree life but the effort in maintaining salvation is steep. I mean my sin which I would totally own up to is listening to secular music and prolonged anger.
I also find the idea of the Holy Spirit or should I say the annoiting unappealing because it seems to be violent. I don't want to pass out or fall under annointing.

TheSixthSense:
My friend, I'm sure you'll agree that lying is dishonorable and next to stealing. That's what your prospective bestie has been found out to be. I don't think I have ever done this but I have to make an exception for Hardmirror because I initially believed him before he was found out to be a fraud.
If you want to become an atheist, do your due diligence on research about the spiritual and Christianity and make the decision yourself. Becoming one because of this guy's fables is doing exactly what he set out to acheive. I was an atheist btw. There's nothing special about it. It's plain disbelief.

Well, if I am to turn atheist, the thread did nothing to convince me. I only enjoyed the fact that the thread really torched nerves and being controversial myself, it endeared hardmirror to me.
A question. Must one pass out or fall under annointing. I hate the Idea.

Certitude:

Well, if I am to turn atheist, the thread did nothing to convince me. I only enjoyed the fact that the thread really torched nerves and being controversial myself, it endeared hardmirror to me.

Hardmirror's tale of his journey to atheism is a lie from the depths of hell. https://www.nairaland.com/3485930/exposing-hardmirror-tale-two-mirrors#51368738 He is a skilled liar - I have to reluctantly give him credit.

A question. Must one pass out or fall under annointing. I hate the Idea.

I think this is different across the multiplicity of denominations. But where I am, No. However, I have watched some very strange demonstrations so proceed with caution.

HardMirror:

If you want a sincere advice, DON'T BECOME AN ATHEIST.
Read your bible, pray and enjoy the friendship of christians (family and friends) but live your life to the fullest.

HardMirror do you intend to respond to my thread?

TheSixthSense:
The first 9 or so pages appeared as an unfair personal attack but it turned out to be the opposite. An investigation was carried out, even alumni of the fellowship were invited and his email correspondence posted. He fabricated everything. Hard to believe but it is clear for everyone to see.

Please get me the link

TheSixthSense:

Hardmirror's tale of his journey to atheism is a lie from the depths of hell. https://www.nairaland.com/3485930/exposing-hardmirror-tale-two-mirrors#51368738 He is a skilled liar - I have to reluctantly give him credit.

I saw something about his reporting a brither died of fasting in 2010 and no one in FUTA being able to corroborate the story. And in one fell sweep Hus whole story is false.

OK. I'm relaying a story, reeling out lots of info and in an unorganized way, I very well can miss some details or relay a few from inadequate memory. It doesn't make my story untrue.

You guyà will do a little more to prove he's a fraud that just little information slip. I really don't have the time to look up other lies. Pls paste the links here.

raphieMontella:

1. you do not need to become an atheist...
You can be a deist etc
nobody comes together in the sense that you speak of...
The only common binding is simply the disbelief...
Atheists do not have a doctrine or some sort to agree on..
2. it just exists..because theism and religion are major factions of life...just a way of identification....for easier warefa..not a necessity..
There's no name for people who dont play football..
3. the word atheism exists..not as a conflict/opposite to religion but theism...
4. theists are free thinkers..likewise deists...a free thinker does not mean you cant have a similar view with another person...its just means you form your own opinions..
And like i said..there's no doctrine or dogma or any belief binding atheists together...the only bond is the disbelief...and a disbelief is not a thing
i think you have a wrong meaning of atheism.
Shalom!

Nice answers,
but allow me to reply according to the numbering above.

(1) I never said I was nurturing an intent to assume atheism.

(2) Theism and religion are synonymous and are not distinctly major factions of life. When one's believe on existentialism is attributed to God/a supreme being, one tends to direct one's path and principles with respect to the being. And these principles, my friend, has no other name than Religion.
When atheism is seasoned with religion, then its claim is mere fantasy.

(3) Religion without theism/deism is not religion. Atheism opposes theism, and if stressed further, opposes deism as well...this is where the "free thinking" comes in.

(4) Theists are not free thinkers, my dear, otherwise they wouldn't give room to be subjected to the principles of what they believe in, even when sometimes they seem not to understand the reason behind the principles. For instance, Christians base their foundation on "faith" even when it is very obvious that they may not understand why their God wants them to exercise it in some unexplained circumstances...


My dear Raph, on the contrary, it is apparent that you do not understand what you think your belief is or you mistake Atheism for something I know not what.

By the way, does forming one's own opinion mean rendering rambling invective against someone else's belief just to show that one is not a believer ??
Please be constructive.

Bluezy13:

Nice answers,
but allow me to reply according to the numbering above.

(1) I never said I was nurturing an intent to assume atheism.

your own words---------
''if atheists could answer my questions,i would be an atheist''

(2) Theism and religion are synonymous and are not distinctly major factions of life. When one's believe on existentialism is attributed to God/a supreme being, one tends to direct one's path and principles with respect to the being. And these principles, my friend, has no other name than Religion.
When atheism is seasoned with religion, then its claim is mere fantasy.

seasoned with religion in what sense?
The word atheist was created by theists..to identify unbelievers..because they were being seen as a threat to their beliefs..
I really dont understand you here...
Its just a way to identify them

(3) Religion without theism/deism is not religion. Atheism opposes theism, and if stressed further, opposes deism as well...this is where the "free thinking" comes in.

deists do not have a religion...just a philosophical position..they are irreligious and freethinkers..

(4) Theists are not free thinkers, my dear, otherwise they wouldn't give room to be subjected to the principles of what they believe in, even when sometimes they seem not to understand the reason behind the principles. For instance, Christians base their foundation on "faith" even when it is very obvious that they may not understand why their God wants them to exercise it in some unexplained circumstances...

sorry..i meant to write ''atheists''
typo error

My dear Raph, on the contrary, it is apparent that you do not understand what you think your belief is or you mistake Atheism for something I know not what.

i am not an atheist...if that helps..
Atheism is simply a disbelief/lack of belief in god/gods

By the way, does forming one's own opinion mean rendering rambling invective against someone else's belief just to show that one is not a believer ??
Please be constructive.

?? Elucidate

LiberaDeus:

I like your post.
Now concerning your question, I can answer it since I am an agnostic and a freethinker.

We atheists or agnostics didn't give our selves that name. You will hardly see any Christian that calls himself theist or a Christian that knows the meaning of the word theist. It is a philosophical description, and the same philosophers describe non believers in that same way.
Consider this scenario, if me and you happen to live in a village. And in that village Every One believes that when a woman is on her period, if you touch her you will die. In this situation, we all know that such a belief is wrong, if we go against the norm of such a belief, we eventually find ourselves being persecuted, what will be the smart thing to do? Won't it be smart for all the rational people to unite against folly.
Coming to your question, as a freethinker, whether you like it or not you are under the influence of a very religious world. The Abrahamic religions are not like the eastern religions. The Abrahamic religions are exclusive, totalitarian and power hungry. They have the ability to politically influence any environment they are accepted in.
We atheists do not have a religion and the only reason we seem to be together on NL is because we share the same intellectual view points. Is it a crime to share or see things the same way?
Religious people don't share intellectual view points but they share the same beliefs.
I don't know where you heard that atheists don't believe in anything. Atheists believe when they have proof if something, religious people choose to believe and their belief leads to them come under one lifestyle and authority.
If you claim we are one because we believe in something then consider the following beliefs and tell me whether the fact that we share them makes us under one umbrella
1. The belief that falling from over 200 feet is fatal
2. The belief that reckless driving kills
3. The belief that cancer is dangerous
4. The belief that the earth is round and that it revolves around the sun
5. The belief that humans don't live past 150 years
6. The belief that fire is harmful to human beings
Consider the beliefs above, do we need to be in a singular group because we believe those. Do we need to be in a cult to believe those? We arrive at those beliefs because we have intellectual capacity. We might live different lives, have different desires but still share those beliefs , does it mean that we are now part of one religion because we share those beliefs?

Thanks a lot for your time.
To your answers;
(1) I would like to correct an impression; You cannot be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time. Agnosticism is rooted in uncertainty...that is when the belief on a supreme being or deity is uncertain or doubtful. While Atheism is rooted in certainty that there is no supreme being which is particularly God.
You cannot be uncertain and certain at the same thing.

(2) And in that village Every One believes that when a woman is on her period, if you touch her you will die. In this situation, we all know that such a belief is wrong, if we go against the norm of such a belief, we eventually find ourselves being persecuted,
The death here is it as result of touching the woman or persecution (like death penalty) ??
If the former, then it means one or two persons must have died after touching such a woman for there to be such a belief. If the later, then it is folly.

(3) You term it folly because you happen to have a different view either because you are not from that village or because you are opportuned to just to witness someone touch and did not die directly as a result of touching and not due to persecution or simply because you happen to be stubborn to that belief.
If it is because you are not from the village, then you have no right to term such a belief as folly.

(4) The overlisted beliefs are facts...natural truths...we all have no choice but to believe they happen. it is different from the belief regarding existentialism, supremacy and deity.

Conclusively, you didn't contribute in the regard of Atheism, theism etc nor in light of my questions.

GeneralTee:


I saw something about his reporting a brother died of fasting in 2010 and no one in FUTA being able to corroborate the story. And in one fell swoop his whole story is false.

OK. I'm relaying a story, reeling out lots of info and in an unorganized way, I very well can miss some details or relay a few from inadequate memory. It doesn't make my story untrue.

You guys will do a little more to prove he's a fraud that just little information slip. I really don't have the time to look up other lies. Pls paste the links here.

Don't lose sleep over those threads. The phrases I have ''bolded'' pretty sums up what all the noise is all about and leads nowhere than bunch of people throwing emotions everywhere. The underlying question(s)/points as posed/raised in this thread still remain unanswered and you can not wish them away over some information slip or fabricated lie by HardMirror [s]depending on which side of the divide one is[/s]. Here's some of such questions/points :

The man who gave us Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, is a raving atheist. But all of us religious people use his invention to promote our views. In my first interview with Edmund Obilo, he confessed on live Radio that he cannot remember when last he was in church. There is no better broadcaster than him in Ibadan. I remember approaching some senior citizens to invite them to attend my fellowship. They told me that religion sets people back. It deters their thinking. It doesn’t promote intellectualism. I just sat there watching.

You cannot sell signs, wonders and miracles to 21st century thinkers – it is just simply out of date. And my findings shows that even the God of the Bible has outdated miracles. Instead he has blessed man with such resounding knowledge that if my generation will spend less time at Redeem Camp and other prayer camps, we will find the cure to AIDS, Cancer and other debilitating diseases of our time. While at the same time adding to the science revolution and increase our nation’s gross productivity. Thereby creating jobs and wealth for the people. This is the type of work the gospel encourages; work that produces better feeding! He that will not work cannot eat!! Let us wake up. The atheists are challenging us.

I am not promoting atheism here. I am simply saying that Pentecostalism and many other religion that thrive on the subjective are adding nothing to science and modern thinkers have no time for such nonsense. I am also saying that the true Christian faith is highly intellectual. It appeals to the mind as it convinces the sinner of a need for a Savior.

Much emphasis on this particular phrase of yours : ''You cannot sell signs, wonders and miracles to 21st century thinkers – it is just simply out of date''.