Felixomor....Awesome thread. I am actually just seeing it even though you had me as one of your mentions.

Nice thread, i noticed that the gainsayers had NOTHING to say. They were more interested in the names the OP mentioned, not the understanding presented. A simple copy and paste of names from another thread does that, i wonder how devil gave "thinkers" headache and perplexities over such a trite thing.

Image123:
Nice thread, i noticed that the gainsayers had NOTHING to say. They were more interested in the names the OP mentioned, not the understanding presented. A simple copy and paste of names from another thread does that, i wonder how devil gave "thinkers" headache and perplexities over such a trite thing.

Thank you my brother.

I am perplexed at them too

NinjaX:
Question: when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, was he riding on one donkey or two?

Matthew 21: 71

They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set him on them.

Mark 11:7

Then they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their clothes on it, and he sat on it.

I think the most blatant case of contradiction happens with numbers as with this case.... Did he sit on one donkey or two?? It's not possible that there was one donkey and at the same time two donkeys. Same thing with the case of the mad man or men of gedarenes. One gospels says one, the other says two.... If that's not contradiction, I don't know what is

The problem with christian apologist is that they use words out of stories and twist them to give them lives of their own.

For example the OP seems to suggest that as the women "entered"the tomb something happened and as they were "perplexed" some thing else happened. But that is not true, all you need to do is read the entire story and see the inconsistencies in them.

Let's start with Mark:

Mar 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
Mar 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb
16:3
and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
Mar 16:4
But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
16:5
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
Mar 16:6
“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
16:7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ”
Mar 16:8
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.


Mark says as they entered the tomb, they saw a man in white robe who told them that Jesus had risen , and that he is going ahead of them to Galilee so they are to go and tell his desciples. The women left in fear and did not say anything to anyone. In Mark the women did not even notice that Jesus body was missing, as they entered they saw a man who told them Jesus had risen, the man was the one that even showed them where Jesus body was laid. They on their own did not notice that his body was missing according to Mark.

Now here is the report from Luke:


On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Luk 24:2
They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Luk 24:3
but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4
While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.
Luk 24:5
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6
He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee:
Luk 24:7
‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Luk 24:8
Then they remembered his words.
Luk 24:9
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others

As you can see its quite different. In Luke the entered into the tomb did not find the body and while they were wondering about it two men suddenly appeared and told them that has has risen. They came back and told his disciples. This is very different from Mark, in Luke they entered and did not find the body and they where perplexed before two men suddenly appeared to them.
In Mark they entered saw a man who told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where Jesus was laid. They didn't even notice the body wasn't there unlike in Luke. Unlike Mark where they did not say anything to anyone, in Luke they told the 11 and others what they saw.

Then here is a completely different narration from John. Completely different.


Jhn 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
Jhn 20:2
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
Jhn 20:3
So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.
Jhn 20:4
Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
Jhn 20:5
He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
Jhn 20:6
Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
Jhn 20:7
as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
Jhn 20:8
Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
Jhn 20:9
(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Jhn 20:10
Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
Jhn 20:11
Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
Jhn 20:12
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
Jhn 20:13
They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”
Jhn 20:14
At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
Jhn 20:15
He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”
Jhn 20:16
Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
Jhn 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
Jhn 20:18
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.


To claim that these accounts are not inconsistent and contradictory is to just lie to your self.

dalaman:
The problem with christian apologist is that they use words out of stories and twist them to give them lives of their own.

For example the OP seems to suggest that as the women "entered"the tomb something happened and as they were "perplexed" some thing else happened. But that is not true, all you need to do is read the entire story and see the inconsistencies in them.

Let's start with Mark:

Mar 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
Mar 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb
16:3
and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
Mar 16:4
But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
16:5
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
Mar 16:6
“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
16:7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ”
Mar 16:8
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.


Mark says as they entered the tomb, they saw a man in white robe who told them that Jesus had risen , and that he is going ahead of them to Galilee so they are to go and tell his desciples. The women left in fear and did not say anything to anyone. In Mark the women did not even notice that Jesus body was missing, as they entered they saw a man who told them Jesus had risen, the man was the one that even showed them where Jesus body wad laid. They on their own did not notice that his body was missing according to Mark.

Now here is the report from Luke:


On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Luk 24:2
They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Luk 24:3
but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4
While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.
Luk 24:5
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6
He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee:
Luk 24:7
‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Luk 24:8
Then they remembered his words.
Luk 24:9
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others

As you can see its quite different. In Luke the entered into the tomb did not find the body and while they were wondering about it two men suddenly appeared and told them that has has risen. They came back and told his disciples. This is very different from Mark, in Luke they entered and did not find the body and they where perplexed before two men suddenly appeared to them.
In Mark they entered saw a man who told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where Jesus was laid. They didn't even notice the body wasn't there unlike in Luke. Unlike Mark where they did not say anything to anyone, in Luke they told the 11 and others what they saw.

Then here is a completely different narration from John. Completely different.


Jhn 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
Jhn 20:2
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
Jhn 20:3
So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.
Jhn 20:4
Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
Jhn 20:5
He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
Jhn 20:6
Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
Jhn 20:7
as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
Jhn 20:8
Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
Jhn 20:9
(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Jhn 20:10
Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
Jhn 20:11
Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
Jhn 20:12
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
Jhn 20:13
They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”
Jhn 20:14
At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
Jhn 20:15
He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”
Jhn 20:16
Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
Jhn 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
Jhn 20:18
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.


To claim that these accounts are not inconsistent and contradictory is to just lie to your self.

The question asked was "how many men were in the tomb?"

Not "how many men were seen by the women?"

I know u didnt see that because
Its obvious u didnt even read the article.

And if u cant decipher the difference between these 2 questions, then sorry.

Besides, ur point, is even so well thrashed in the article.
U didnt bother to read the article. As usual.

felixomor:


The question asked was "how many men were in the tomb?"
Not "how many men were seen by the women?"

I know u didnt see that because
Its obvious u didnt even read the article.

And if u cant decipher the difference between these 2 questions, then sorry.

Besides, ur point, is even so well thrashed in the article.
U didnt bother to read the article.

Mark reports that there was only one man inside the tomb. Luke says two men ,while John says two angels were in the Tomb. Each was very clear. Mark says when they entered the tomb they saw one man. Luke says when they entered and did not see the body and were perplexed two men appeared beside them. John has a complete different narration.

Nothing in the article thrashed my point. The 3 very different accounts are all there. In Mark it was the man they saw when the entered the tomb that told them that Jesus had risen, he then went ahead and showed them where his body was laid as evidence to show that he wasn't there. But in Luke when they entered the tomb they didn't see the body and were wondering about it before two men appeared and told them that he had risen. In Luke they discovered the body was missing on their own unlike in Matk where it was the man that told them that the body isn't there and showed them where it was laid as evidence to show he was risen. John has a very wild and different account from the other two which included Jesus male deciples also coming to the tomb. Very different and inconsistent accounts.

randomperson:

I think the most blatant case of contradiction happens with numbers as with this case.... Did he sit on one donkey or two?? It's not possible that there was one donkey and at the same time two donkeys. Same thing with the case of the mad man or men of gedarenes. One gospels says one, the other says two.... If that's not contradiction, I don't know what is

Its obvious also u dont even know the definition of "contradiction"
because u didnt bother to read the article

Also, the shameless soul, NinjaX, u r replying even quoted "Matthew 21:71" when Matthew 21 has only 46 verses

And u also blindly mentioned him without correction.
It only showz that ur google "bible' is only opened when u r on nairaland.
But u guys will come and pose like people who have been studying for eternity.

Humble urself and study, kids.
Desperation doesnt hide.

dalaman:


Mark reports that there was only one man inside the tomb. Luke says two men ,while John says two angels were in the Tomb. Each was very clear. Mark says when they entered the tomb they saw one man. Luke says when they entered and did not see the body and were perplexed two men appeared beside them. John has a complete different narration.

Nothing in the article thrashed my point. The 3 very different accounts are all there. In Mark it was the man they saw when the entered the tomb that told them that Jesus had risen, he then went ahead and showed them where his body was laid as evidence to show that he wasn't there. But in Luke when they entered the tomb they didn't see the body and were wondering about it before two men appeared and told them that he had risen. In Luke they discovered the body was missing on their own unlike in Matk where it was the man that told them that the body isn't there and showed them where it was laid as evidence to show he was risen. John has a very wild and different account from the other two which included Jesus male deciples also coming to the tomb. Very different and inconsistent accounts.

Mark never said "only one man" was in the tomb.

Guy please go and work on your English language abeg. Or stick to your native dialect.
Honest advice to u.

I will leave it there.

felixomor:


Mark never said "only one man" was in the tomb.

Guy please go and work on your English language abeg. Or stick to your native dialect.
Honest advice to u.

I will leave it there.

So how many people were in the tomb according to Mark? Someone reported that a group of women entered a place a saw a man whom they interacted with. If they saw more than one person inside the tomb Mark would have indicated it. Remember he was telling you what the women say when the went in.

If I enter into a room and see one man and I report seeing one man while giving my narrative, I must not say that I saw one man only.

dalaman:


So how many people were in the tomb according to Mark? Someone reported that a group of women entered a place a saw a man whom they interacted with. If they saw more than one person inside the tomb Mark would have indicated it. Remember he was telling you what the women say when the went in.

If I enter into a room and see one man and I report seeing one man while giving my narrative, I must not say that I saw one man only.

Please how old are you?
Let me know please.

felixomor:


Please how old are you?
Let me know please.

How many men where in the tomb according to Mark? 3, 4, 6 , 10? How many?

dalaman:


How many men where in the tomb according to Mark? 3, 4, 6 , 10? How many?

Mark never mentioned the total census of men in the tomb.
Neither did Luke.

If u cant spot that, then I dont think we r on same grammatical platform.
Its unfortunate, I am beginning to decipher the age gap between us. It appears very wide
Hence these types of back and forth talk.
Sad.

felixomor:


Mark never mentioned the total census of men in the tomb.
Neither did Luke.

If u cant spot that, then I dont think we r on same grammatical platform.
Its unfortunate, I am beginning to decipher the age gap between us. It appears very wide
Hence these types of back and forth talk.
Sad.

Mark told you the number of people the women saw. They saw one man. Luke said 2 men appeared. Both narratives were very different. While the man in Mark spoke to them as the entered and told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where he was laid as evidence to show he had risen, the two men in Luke appeared after the women noticed that the body wasn't there .

In Mark it was the man that told them that the body wasn't there while in Luke they discovered that the body wasn't there on their own before the two men appeared. Two very inconsistent tales.

dalaman:


Mark told you the number of people the women saw. They saw one man. Luke said 2 men appeared. Both narratives were very different. While the man in Mark spoke to them as the entered and told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where he was laid as evidence to show he had risen, the two men in Luke appeared after the women noticed that the body wasn't there .

In Mark it was the man that told them that the body wasn't there while in Luke they discovered that the body wasn't there on their own before the two men appeared. Two very inconsistent tales.

Suit urself.

Even kids reading this thread would wonder why u r again reproducing what was clearly written inside the article.
Especially after defining what "contradiction" is.

I will have to repeat this on here:


So how about this: Matthew is explicit when he says that the disciples are told to go to Galilee since that is where they will meet jesus (28:7). They do so (28:16), and that is where ]esus meets them and gives them his final commands (28:17-20). This is both clear-cut and completely at odds with what happens in Luke. There, the disciples are not told to go to Galilee. The women are informed at the empty tomb, by the two men, that when jesus had earlier been in Galilee, he had announced that he would be raised. Since the disciples are not told to go to Galilee, they do not do so. They stay in Jerusalem, in the land of judea. And it is there that Jesus meets them “that very day” (24:13). Jesus speaks with them and emphatically instructs them not to leave the city until they receive the power of the Spirit, which happens more than forty days later, according to Acts 1-2 (that is, they are not to go to Galilee; 24:49). He leads them right outside Jerusalem, to nearby Bethany, and gives them his last instructions and departs from them (24:50-51). And we learn they did as he commanded: they stayed in the city, worshiping in the temple (24:53). In the book of Acts, written by the same author as the book of Luke, we find out that they stayed in Jerusalem for more than a month, until the day of Pentecost (Acts 1-2).

Question remains, where did the disciples meet Jesus after his resurrection, Galilee or Jerusalem?

Rilwayne001:
I will have to repeat this on here:


So how about this: Matthew is explicit when he says that the disciples are told to go to Galilee since that is where they will meet jesus (28:7). They do so (28:16), and that is where ]esus meets them and gives them his final commands (28:17-20). This is both clear-cut and completely at odds with what happens in Luke. There, the disciples are not told to go to Galilee. The women are informed at the empty tomb, by the two men, that when jesus had earlier been in Galilee, he had announced that he would be raised. Since the disciples are not told to go to Galilee, they do not do so. They stay in Jerusalem, in the land of judea. And it is there that Jesus meets them “that very day” (24:13). Jesus speaks with them and emphatically instructs them not to leave the city until they receive the power of the Spirit, which happens more than forty days later, according to Acts 1-2 (that is, they are not to go to Galilee; 24:49). He leads them right outside Jerusalem, to nearby Bethany, and gives them his last instructions and departs from them (24:50-51). And we learn they did as he commanded: they stayed in the city, worshiping in the temple (24:53). In the book of Acts, written by the same author as the book of Luke, we find out that they stayed in Jerusalem for more than a month, until the day of Pentecost (Acts 1-2).

Question remains, where did the disciples meet Jesus after his resurrection, Galilee or Jerusalem?

In the context of the bible, Galilee actually means Jerusalem. But only the holy spirit can reveal this to you... hehehehehe...

You cannot understand it if your spiritual eyes are not open. In the spirit realm one angel is equal two. One donkey is equal two. Jesus at the tomb means one/two angels at the tomb. You all need to pray for understanding even though the OP copied everything from a website. Your minds are just too carnal.

---

Happy new year my friends!

Ranchhoddas:
You cannot understand it if your spiritual eyes are not open. In the spirit realm one angel is equal two. One donkey is equal two. Jesus at the tomb means one/two angels at the tomb. You all need to pray for understanding even though the OP copied everything from a website. Your minds are just too carnal.

---

Happy new year my friends!

hmmm, you said you've picked a side this 2017

does this post of yours mean you've joined Hopefullandlord's side?

randomperson:

In the context of the bible, Galilee actually means Jerusalem. But only the holy spirit can reveal this to you... hehehehehe...

there was a time machine in those days

that explains why two totally different things can happen at the same time

anyone who's watched "Butterfly Effect" "Heroes TV series" "Continuum" "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban" etc would understand

hopefulLandlord:


hmmm, you said you've picked a side this 2017

does this post of yours mean you've joined Hopefullandlord's side?

I'm exercising my Fifth Amendment rights on this question.

hopefulLandlord:


there was a time machine in those days

that explains why two totally different things can happen at the same time

anyone who's watched "Butterfly Effect" "Heroes TV series" "Continuum" "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban" etc would understand

Lmfao..... All those movies u mentioned actually have better plots than the bible... At least u can enjoy it while u are being lied to...

hopefulLandlord:


there was a time machine in those days

that explains why two totally different things can happen at the same time

anyone who's watched "Butterfly Effect" "Heroes TV series" "Continuum" "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban" etc would understand

I've not watched 'Continuum'. I'll add it to my 'to watch' list.

randomperson:

Lmfao..... All those movies u mentioned actually have better plots than the bible... At least u can enjoy it while u are being lied to...

Hehehehehehehehe

So essentially, this style of hermeneutics Felixomor is trying to do ends up into "how can these hot mess be salvaged and made consonant with contemporary social norms, ethics and present general intellect rather than dissonant?".

It seems to me that a lot of progressive Christians are 1 good look in the mirror and the question 'why do I believe any of this stuff anyway?' away from leaving Christianity altogether

hopefulLandlord:


Hehehehehehehehe

So essentially, this style of hermeneutics Felixomor is trying to do ends up into "how can this hot mess be salvaged and made consonant with contemporary social norms and ethics rather than dissonant?".

It seems to me that a lot of progressive Christians are 1 good look in the mirror and the question 'why do I believe any of this stuff anyway?' away from leaving Christianity altogether

Actually.... I was once exactly like that. Very committed to Christ but mehn, u can't just close your eyes to the load of crap in that book called the bible...

felixomor:


Suit urself.

Even kids reading this thread would wonder why u r again reproducing what was clearly written inside the article.
Especially after defining what "contradiction" is.

Let's look at the obvious contradiction. Mark said when they entered the tomb, the man they saw told them that Jesus had risen. He then went ahead and showed them where they laid his body as evidence to show them he had risen. The discovery wasnt made by them.

Luke on the other hand said that the women discovered that the body wasn't there and as they were wondering two men appeared and told them that Jesus had risen.

So the question is did the women discover the missing body on their own or where told by the man they saw? It can't be both.

Guys why are we even focused on just Mark and Luke.

You have forgotten the gospel of John that says Jesus appeared to the women outside the tomb and told them to wait because he hasn't gotten to the father yet.

Oya let professional Olympic standard Christian gymnasts[ apologists] come and do their stunts.

dalaman:


Let's look at the obvious contradiction. Mark said when they entered the tomb, the man they saw told them that Jesus had risen. He then went ahead and showed them where they laid his body as evidence to show them he had risen. The discovery wasnt made by them.

Luke on the other hand said that the women discovered that the body wasn't there and as they were wondering two men appeared and told them that Jesus had risen.

So the question is did the women discover the missing body on their own or where told by the man they saw? It can't be both.

Define "contradiction".

LiberaDeus:
Guys why are we even focused on just Mark and Luke.

You have forgotten the gospel of John that says Jesus appeared to the women outside the tomb and told them to wait because he hasn't gotten to the father yet.

Oya let professional Olympic standard Christian gymnasts[ apologists] come and do their stunts.

John's account is completely different. In his account the women ran back and called some of the disciples of Jesus when they discovered that the body was missing inside the tomb. They all came and saw for themselvss that hia body was missing, one of the women saw two angels before seeing Jesus Himself standing there. The one man had turn to two angels in John.

felixomor:


Define "contradiction".

Mutually opposed or inconsistent.

hopefulLandlord:


Hehehehehehehehe

So essentially, this style of hermeneutics Felixomor is trying to do ends up into "how can these hot mess be salvaged and made consonant with contemporary social norms, ethics and present general intellect rather than dissonant?".

It seems to me that a lot of progressive Christians are 1 good look in the mirror and the question 'why do I believe any of this stuff anyway?' away from leaving Christianity altogether

2 paragraphs and counting.
No point made.

Am i surprised?
No. Not when i saw your name.

dalaman:


Mutually opposed or inconsistent.

Please paste it from dictionary. Thanks and state the reference.