I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs, I am just examining the act of using the bible as a guide to instill moral values in a child through reading the texts to the child and allowing the child access to it.

I don't think the bible is the best foundation for developing a child's morality. Like I said in my thread title, I think it's dangerously harmful.

Now I am not saying the bible isn't an efficient mechanism to imbue good moral values in a child, I am just saying it's not the best and it's also not the most efficient.

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

Secondly, I think introducing a child to the notion of hell is terribly bad. This could have devastatingly harmful effects on the mind of the child. Imagine the mental trauma a child could go through when he contemplates the possibility of going to hell for committing even the smallest of crimes.

Thirdly, the bible is replete with stories that purport to espouse moral values, but actually convey the opposite of progressive moral values.
Example is the story of Abraham and Isaac. What moral value does this convey besides the ethics of committing murder? How about the story of Lot's wife? I don't see what else it can teach a child besides imbuing the child with a maddening amount of fear and crippling submission to every ordinance of God, despite what those ordinances are.

Finally, in my opinion exposing children to all the death and killing in the bible, at a young age, can have devastatingly bad effects on their mental and moral growth.

Sometimes, one would read some things and wonder how the writer got so clueless

#OP: I'm of the opinion that not using the Bible to raise you is child abuse in itself.

Majesticniyi:
Sometimes, one would read some things and wonder how the writer got so clueless

Sometimes I wonder why Nigerians can't debate topics they disagree with without throwing insults. Can't you challenge views you don't agree with in a civilized way?

Please can someone address the points I made? I really entertain the possibility of having my mind changed on this issue. I can't be replying to people who can't analyse ideas critically and intelligently.

Perhaps we should start using the Nigerian Constitution? Where a life imprisonment or death sentence is recommended for a kidnapper without any plausible explanation?


Perhaps we should start taking our kids and teens to 'fellowship' in Nigerian Prisons and Law Courts where justice is duly served for all immoral conducts.

Acidosis:
Perhaps we should start using the Nigerian Constitution? Where a life imprisonment or death sentence is recommended for a kidnapper without any plausible explanation?


Perhaps we should start taking our kids and teens to 'fellowship' in Nigerian Prisons and Law Courts where justice is duly served for all immoral conducts.

I believe there are better texts to instill morality into kids other than the bible and the Nigerian constitution.

Trudax:


Sometimes I wonder why Nigerians can't debate topics they disagree with without throwing insults. Can't you challenge views you don't agree with in a civilized way?

Challenge what views? The Bible and other religious books are the foundations for most of those books you think should be used to instill discipline in children. I don't waste my time on irrelevant discussions. The Bible you so vehemently oppose has taught me to 'answer not a fool in his foolishness' and a fool according to that book is not an unlearned person but he who says there is no God.

Trudax:


Calm down. We are not fighting.

First of all, I never suggested any book that should be used to instill discipline in children. I only examined how effective the bible was and the possible negative effects of using it to raise children.

Why is everyone insulting me on this thread? Did I insult anyone? What did I say that deserves me being called a fool? I just asked a simple question. And I rightly stated that I was open to my mind being changed if someone could respond to my arguments. But all I get is insults and sentimental comments.

You know what? I think Nigeria is irredeemable from the bondage of intellectual mediocrity. You people in this country lack the cognitive ability to think and examine ideas in a civilized and dispassionate way. Shame!

How can a human being living in this day and age type this as a response to a simple argument? Jeez!! Even if you oppose my view, can't you at least engage with it and see things from my own perspective? How do you expect to grow intellectually as an individual? How do you even make rational decisions when you clearly don't know how to think objectively? How can you raise a better generation if this is how you approach issues? Wow!!

I'm sorry if you think I'm insulting you but being a fool in this case isnt based on intelligence, it's based on spirituality... I guess the insults come as a result of our deep religious sentiments and we instinctively attack any attack on our religious inclinations. That point aside, these religious books have been used as moral support for years and they didn't fail until recently when we started deviating from them and using our human knowledge (both to interprete the scriptures and also to oppose it). My opinion still stand though, I'm training my children using biblical principles....simple!

Majesticniyi:




I'm sorry if you think I'm insulting you but being a fool in this case isnt based on intelligence, it's based on spirituality... I guess the insults come as a result of our deep religious sentiments and we instinctively attack any attack on our religious inclinations. That point aside, these religious books have been used as moral support for years and they didn't fail until recently when we started deviating from them and using our human knowledge (both to interprete the scriptures and also to oppose it). My opinion still stand though, I'm training my children using biblical principles....simple!

What books have been used for years? The Bible? The Quran? And you think they have been effective? Let's examine this claim shall we.

Human beings possess something called empathy. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. It's the ability to understand another person's suffering and feel it as if you were them. Empathy allows humans to consider the circumstances their actions would have on another individual before committing such action. So the higher the empathy a person has, the less likely he would commit a crime against another person. Empathy is what regulates moral actions, not texts.

Every moral obligation that involves the consequences of our actions that the bible prohibits, like stealing, killing, etc, humans by dint of empathy already know that this is wrong. Anyone who needs a book to tell them that such kinds of actions are wrong, has no empathy. And only psychopaths fall within this category. So I can rightly say that the bible is a reinforcer or reminder of moral values that we already acknowledge.

That aside, the bible also espouses so called moral values that anyone living today would consider as morally reprehensible. Such as endorsing slavery, subjugation and marginalization of women and sanctioning of genocides and some of the other horrendous practices. Now, no 21st century person would abide by these laid our codes. Why is it so? Because we have a more nourished framework for empathy. If empathy and our developed notions about the value and sactity of human life can lead us in a progressively moral direction than the bible could, how then is the bible reliable as a moral foundation?

Also, you claim the bible has worked until recently. Please when exactly is recently?

I am of the opinion that one doesn't necessarily need the bible to acknowledge the good moral values it espouses. All one needs is empathy and common sense. And contrary to your opinion, the bible didn't originate moral values. Moral values precede the bible.

Finally, if the bible actually is an efficient mechanism to instill moral values in people, then Nigeria, given how religious it is, should be among the most moral countries. But the opposite is the case. Nigeria despite all the Bible thumping is corrupt and morally decadent. And quite remarkably, countries that aren't religious, that don't use the bible to instill moral values in their children, countries like Denmark and Sweden, are the most peaceful and moral countries in the world. Why is this so? The answer is obvious. There are alternative ways to raise kids to be moral that are more effective, efficient and more innocuous than using the bible. What the bible-style moral education does is create moral sheep. People who are coerced into adopting moral values by threats of hell and promise of heavenly rewards.

The bible-style morality thrives on selfishness and fear. It tells you to do good for selfish reasons. It tells you to do good for personal rewards in heaven and the avoidance of hell. This in my opinion is not only counter productive but it also stifles empathy.

Children should be taught virtues of compassion and empathy, not fear and blind submission.

Trudax:


I believe there are better texts to instill morality into kids other than the bible and the Nigerian constitution.

I know where this is going.

LUBBISH TALK..... use Blue film to raise ur kids na

Trudax:
I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs, I am just examining the act of using the bible as a guide to instill moral values in a child through reading the texts to the child and allowing the child access to it.

I don't think the bible is the best foundation for developing a child's morality. Like I said in my thread title, I think it's a dangerous form of child abuse.

Now I am not saying the bible isn't an efficient mechanism to imbue good moral values in a child, I am just saying it's not the best and it's also not the most efficient.

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

Secondly, I think introducing a child to the notion of hell is terribly bad. This could have devastatingly harmful effects on the mind of the child. Imagine the mental trauma a child could go through when he contemplates the possibility of going to hell for committing even the smallest of crimes.

Thirdly, the bible is replete with stories that purport to espouse moral values, but actually convey the opposite of progressive moral values.
Example is the story of Abraham and Isaac. What moral value does this convey besides the ethics of committing murder? How about the story of Lot's wife? I don't see what else it can teach a child besides imbuing the child with a maddening amount of fear and crippling submission to every ordinance of God, despite what those ordinances are.

And does anyone not see the exposing of children to all the death and killing in the bible as a form of child abuse?

Mr Atheist, I dare you to challenge the muslim and tell that their koran is not good foundation for their kids as a means of instilling moral values and see if you survive 24 hours.

You who is talking fail to realise that everyman has right of choice. Not everything is meant to be opposed because we have choice just as you have a choice to become an atheist that you are (don't deny it)

Learn to respect people's choice as long as life is not lost in the process.

robotix:


Mr Atheist, I dare you to challenge the muslim and tell that their koran is not good foundation for their kids as a means of instilling moral values and see if you survive 24 hours.

You who is talking fail to realise that everyman has right of choice. Not everything is meant to be opposed because we have choice just as you have a choice to become an atheist that you are (don't deny it)

Learn to respect people's choice as long as life is not lost in the process.

Where did I say I was an atheist? Why are you people in this country so immune to civil discourse?

I am not opposing anyone's choice to train their kids in whatsoever way they feel is best. All I am doing is stating my opinion on an important issue with the hope of having constructive, civil discussions about it, with the possibility of changing my mind if compelling arguments are put forth against mine. But what do I get? Sentimental comments that don't even address the points I raised. What the heck is wrong with people in this part of the world?

Why are your views so insulated from appraisal? So what you are essentially saying is that no one's views on issues should be questioned and we should all just live our lives according to whatever beliefs we have and never question them? How would a society move forward if this is the approach people have towards ideas and beliefs?

I am not infringing on your freedom of choice. I am only exercising my freedom of thought and expression, in a civil way. I am not pointing a gun at you and telling to stop using the Bible as a moral foundation for your children. I am only asking you to question it. Questioning our beliefs and ideas is the only way we can grow intellectually. Dogmatism and fundamentalism has never helped anyone.

Can't u see that nobody (even atheists, muslims, pagan, etc) has time for u or even agrees with u?


Stop seeking relevance by insulting the LORD GOD Almighty.

Why not seek relevance by posting ur unclad pix on facebook as ur mates and folks do?

Okay, I think it's official. I know there are various kinds of intelligence, but any intelligence that involves being able to think independently and objectively, examine ideas critical and extrapolate valid conclusions from them, and being open-minded, on the average, black people are inferior to other races in this aspect. This thread substantiates this fact.

If I post this exact same question on a forum like reddit, the kind of responses I will get will be the opposite of what I am receiving here.

For God sake I just posited my opinion elaborately and asked for it to be challenged in a civil way. I even stated explicitly that I was open to have my mind changed. Why am I getting ad hominem attacks instead?

@ Crackhaus, Onegai, megareal, lovelygurl, donoms, joavid, fadamant.

You guys commented well on my other threads. Please I would like you to comment on this one too. The responses I am getting are quite appalling.

Trudax, have you forgotten most of the people here are Christians. It's a very touchy topic.
If you want more objectiveness, you should have posted it in the religion section.

Although I think your title is not exactly appropriate, I have to agree to your first and second point.

I'm going to use myself as an example growing up in a Christian home.
when in Sunday school, we are told not to lie, cheat, steal, etc because God is watching us. and those who steal, lie, kill, cheat etc shall go to hell because they are child of Satan not child of God. but the story got stale when I got to know I could ask God for forgiveness and he would forgive me whenever I sin, I can continuing sinning, and then ask him for forgiveness and repentance afterwords.

Sometimes it's not the message but the messenger.

Wouldn't it have been better if they told me stealing wasn't right because I was taking something that belongs to someone else not me, and the person will be hurt and disappointed to find his thing missing. Why didn't they teach me to love one another and stealing hurts those I love and whoever steals from me hurts me as well. Why didn't they teach me stealing is a disgrace to me and my family etc etc.

@Joavid. Thanks for your constructive response. I have amended the thread title .

I'm just seeing this now and feel I should add my two cents.
The bible itself is a book and even as a Christian, I don't take everything written there literally.
As far as training and instructing children is concerned, there are no specific laid down rules on how to go about it. Every parent or guardian chooses what works for them.
Just like every other book, the words in the bible can be turned, twisted and interpreted in various ways that would suit the way one chooses to train a child. So I do not agree to the fact that using the bible as a tool or guide to train a child is destructive.

#OP It's your opinion and I respect that. But I must also say that harmful and destructive are strong words. Looking clearly, the concept of Morality has its foundation deeply embedded in Christian tenets.

The human mind no matter how deluded it might be knows there is a higher order than his realm.

Come to think of it. The concept of Morality is subjective. Because your requirements for training your child differs as a function of geography.

The Bible is a general standard that transcend geography and thereby has a universal influence, irrespective of race, or location.

# mythought. Not particularly concise. But you catch my drift

Harmful and ineffective! sure you don't know what you are talking about!

Only atheists can tell you what you want to hear @op


I have recommended the Nigerian constitution, and so far, you haven't come up with any suggestion. How do you even define morality without referring to some Biblical tenets? How do you know the right from the wrong?


Oh, you think "killing" is immoral? Do you think Jihadist consider their actions as "immoral"?

If you can kill cows and goats, why can't we kill humans?

How do you know stealing is wrong? Aren't we one again? Why should you be mad if I steal your car? We are supposed to be one isn't it? If the Bible has not spelled out these facts, how would you have known?

Weren't your great great grandparents killing albinos and twins for rituals? Do they consider their actions as immoral? If Bishop Ajayi Crowther had not interpreted the Bible in Yoruba language, wouldn't some Yoruba warlords murdered us all in the name of Ogun or Oya festival?

I don't even know how you want to define morality without referring to the Bible. Telling a child he will go to hell if he steals is a basic truth in so far as his/her parents believe that doctrine. Many of us that attended such training were equally told to love one another. That message is always balanced unless you just want to paint your objective in the wrong way.

Wouldn't it be better to tell a child to avoid theft because: 1. it can hurt the victim; 2. He would be jailed and unable to achieve his dreams.

What do you want to feed a child with? Half baked truth or absolute truth according to Biblical doctrine?


I don't understand you, but as someone mentioned, you can visit the "religious" section, that's where you can objectively address your issue the ATHEIST way.

Trudax:

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

I agree with you on this. Religion is a very touchy topic in Nigeria. It's as if people switch off their brains when religion is mentioned, activating the 'defend mode'.

Just like you said, you shouldn't tell a child not to do this and that because the Bible forbids it.
At least not only because the Bible forbids it but also explain WHY. If they stop just because you told them too, they'll continue when you are not around/they know your threats aren't real.
However if they know the reasons behind it, there is a higher chance they'll do the right thing.

It is ineffective. The Nigerian society shows it best. Religious people everywhere and yet fantastically corrupt.

lovelygurl:





I agree with you on this. Religion is a very touchy topic in Nigeria. It's as if people switch off their brains when religion is mentioned, activating the 'defend mode'.

Just like you said, you shouldn't tell a child not to do this and that because the Bible forbids it.
At least not only because the Bible forbids it but also explain WHY. If they stop just because you told them too, they'll continue when you are not around/they know your threats aren't real.
However if they know the reasons behind it, there is a higher chance they'll do the right thing.

Is it morally wrong to kill a human being? Why?

Why is it wrong to kill a human being, but right to kill an animal?

Why is ga.y marriage right in the US today, but wrong in many countries?

Why is Marijuana morally acceptable in some countries, but wrong in many Arab nations?

On what basis does the Nigerian or American Constitution considered stealing a jail-able offence?

Why should I be jailed for stealing from the CBN? Is CBN not owned by Nigeria? Am I not a Nigerian?

Why do our forefathers consider killing of albinos MORALLY right?

Why is it morally wrong to kill convicts by hanging in the US, but morally acceptable in Malaysia?

What you considered as morally acceptable was founded upon key doctrines. The Nigerian Constitution is modelled after Biblical and Quoranic doctrines. Until recently, even the US has most of its beliefs founded upon religious doctrines.

Common sense should tell us all that what two men decides to do with their bodies in public is no ones business but somehow, something tells us all that it is wrong, even those who claim to be civilised in the western countries won't leave their butt cracks for another man to burst! Why?

Why can't two teens marry each other?


The argument can go on and on, but the summary of it all is that morality as a concept is founded upon certain religious doctrines everywhere in the world.

In Dubai, you cannot sleep in the same hotel room with a lady you're not legally married to, yet it didn't stop them from developing. In Nigeria, you can even sleep in the same hotel room with the Hotel Manager's wife and no one cares yet we are not developed.

Whoever thinks the Nigerian religious beliefs are too tedious is only being ridiculous. They can go ahead and light a wrapped weed in those Arab countries, let's see what would become of them.

How many homes in Nigeria even read the Bible? We are only exaggerating nonexisting issues. Nigeria is morally bankrupt because people don't practice the religion we purportedly carry on our heads.

OP, Excellent write up. Please dont argue, this message is not for them its for their generations in 1000yrs.

MurderX:
OP, Excellent write up. Please dont argue, this message is not for them its for their generations in 1000yrs.

Lol, so says the man who wouldn't leave his butt to be cracked by another man. How did you know that ga.y practice is morally wrong?

Acidosis:



Is it morally wrong to kill a human being? Why?

Killing a human being is wrong because that person is someone's brother/someone's sister, daughter/son, mother/father. How would you feel if someone you love is taken away from you in such a brutal way?

Why is it wrong to kill a human being, but right to kill an animal?
Humans have different perspectives of life. Some think it's ok to kill animals, some think it's not.
Depending on how you think things should be, you can decide for yourself if you want to be a vegetarian, go vegan etc, since humans are omnivores
Why is ga.y marriage right in the US today, but wrong in many countries?
Gay marriages is right in some countries because of their perspective of life. In the US, people do not really care what two grown ups do together, in some countries they do, mainly because of their religion
Why is Marijuana morally acceptable in some countries, but wrong in many Arab nations?
Marijuana isn't morally acceptable in most Arab countries because to them, it isn't something considered moral
On what basis does the Nigerian or American Constitution considered stealing a jail-able offence?
[color=#990000Different strokes, for different folks ] [/color]
Why should I be jailed for stealing from the CBN? Is CBN not owned by Nigeria? Am I not a Nigerian?
Oh you are a Nigerian just like many others are. It shouldn't only be yours but for the entire country
Why do our forefathers consider killing of albinos MORALLY right?
Things change. The world keeps evolving, that's is how it is supposed to be. Nobody can help it. What's we might be doing now, migot be barbaric to the upcoming generation. Beliefs change
Why is it morally wrong to kill convicts by hanging in the US, but morally acceptable in Malaysia?
Different strokes, for different folks
What you considered as morally acceptable was founded upon key doctrines. The Nigerian Constitution is modelled after Biblical and Quoranic doctrines. Until recently, even the US has most of its beliefs founded upon religious doctrines.

Common sense should tell us all that what two men decides to do with their bodies in public is no ones business but somehow, something tells us all that it is wrong, even those who claim to be civilised in the western countries won't leave their butt cracks for another man to burst! Why?
Probably because they can't mind their business. Not everybody is the same, some do and some don't
Why can't two teens marry each other?
Teens are seen as being too young to make such important decision. Being a teen also means you might be easy to influence or naive. This is not always the case but the reason why there's a age limit


The argument can go on and on, but the summary of it all is that morality as a concept is founded upon certain religious doctrines everywhere in the world.

What do you call my own definition of morality then because it's not based on any religion doctrine. I answered the question based on my mentality which is

Humans are individuals, not meant to be the same. If you want someone to accept you for the way you are, be ready to accept others the way they are. The fact that they think different, have different beliefs, mentalities and religion doesn't mean you are better or they are weird because they are different . It simply means "different strokes, for different folks". Live and let others do the same

Its because the OP doesn't have an Understanding of the Bible.

You are citing Abraham as an example, did Abraham commit Murder?

Why did Jesus Christ die? He died so we don't have to struggle with the laws in Leviticus.

So we shouldn't train Children with the Ten commandments?

Anyone who obeys the ten commandments is going to live a morally upright life.

I disagree with you.

lovelygurl:


What do you call my own definition of morality then because it's not based on any religion doctrine. I answered the question based on my mentality which is

Humans are individuals, not meant to be the same. If you want someone to accept you for the way you are, be ready to accept others the way they are. The fact that they think different, have different beliefs, mentalities and religion doesn't mean you are better or they are weird because they are different . It simply means "different strokes, for different folks". Live and let others do the same

Really? So why do we share one constitution?


Why can't I kill and get away with it or burst a butt in Nigeria because it aligns with my morals?

Why can't I take an olosho to an hotel in Dubai?

Why can't I smoke Marijuana in Indonesia?


Why do morally bankrupt Nigerians find it hard to cope in these countries?

Morality is based upon certain doctrines. You cannot tell a kid to avoid stealing simply because someone somewhere would be hurt. He should also know that the fellow whose property was stolen could get him jailed for 20 years. That's the reason our schools teach Religious study, Social study and Civic studies. If he's a Christian, he should also know that God forbids stealing