This isn't a question of the 'clay' questioning the potter this is man questioning his fellow man. It was man who wrote the Bible and made all the religious laws. It was man who created the mythology behind every religion.

you kidding me?

If I've made an incorrect statement then feel free to correct me.

Lets begin this way,

If i make daily phone calls to england to dictate notes to you, for one reason or the other; when the script is complete, who is the author: you or me?

Christianity in essence is not about religion, it wasnt created by any whims of man, it was written that it was in antioch that the disciples were first called christians; why? because people observed their composure and way of life and saw it was akin to christ's.hence the word christians[i], the people who live like christ.....[/i]not a religion, like islam, budhism etc

So now you're saying that Christianity isn't a religion...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
(sorry)

The whole purpose council in Antioch was so that the Christians could get their story straight and rope in other sheep.


p.s.
If you wanted to say that God dictated the Bible to the people who wrote it, then why not just say that How would you know whether the Bible was written 'under the influence of God' or not?

Just as there are reasons to support evolution, there are evidence to show that no human mind could conceive the writings of the bible, it may seem ordinary to you but they are God inspired, ALL scriptures are written by the inspiration of God....II timothy 3: 16-17


Yes Christianity is not a religion, but its up to you what you believe.

[QUOTE]there are evidence to show that no human mind could conceive the writings of the bible[/QUOTE]

what evidence?

Yes there is scientific proof that evolution happens...but trying to place modern day science on an even keel with Middle-Eastern mythology is ridiculous...

I'm really interested to hear what you have to say and also who told/taught you all this 'knowledge'...

Thanks...

It is amazing how we guzzle what a fellow human said and think little of the words and works of our creator, there are documentaries both written and recorded that delineates the origin of the bible and its authenticity, since you have asked i will make available to you helpful sites in due course, however stay close to your History channel, you will learn more there also about the existence of God and his amazing world.

It is amazing how we guzzle what a fellow human said

Isn't it just...

Someone tells you that 'god' told them to write it and you automatically believe them...


p.s.
I'd appreciate it if you would share the proof that 'delineates the origins of the Bible'...

Thanks...

you are always missing the point, someone did not just say and i swallowed it, it is an evidence-based way of life.

stay tuned.....

I have tuned in for quite some time now. All I got for my patience was noise. I couldn't even improve the picture quality. When does the program start?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -C Sagan

do you know how he lived, and died?

well all you have gotten is noise because that's all you're hearing not because thats all being said; anyway nferyn tell me why gravity differs in different planets, you still havent answered me.

I will let you have proofs, as i said, as time permits me: you have to agree this is a social forum which we are all glad to be part of i believe, we have other lives aside this.

nicetohave:

do you know how he lived, and died?

well all you have gotten is noise because that's all you're hearing not because thats all being said; anyway nferyn tell me why gravity differs in different planets, you still havent answered me.

The gravity on different planets differs because their mass differs. The force of gravity is determined by the mass of the object that expresses that gravity..

Law of Universal Gravitation: Every mass in the universe attracts every other mass with a force that for two masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance separating them
F = (G(m1*m2))/d^2

nicetohave:

I will let you have proofs, as i said, as time permits me: you have to agree this is a social forum which we are all glad to be part of i believe, we have other lives aside this.

Obviously, the same goes for me. LadyC for example has entered the forum with a bang and I would very much like to answer her assertions, but there's only 24 hours in a day

Exu

i don't usually waste my time delving into biblical discussions,



...i believe you. That is good because you do not know the bible ...so why try to comment on it. This fact accounts for your unbelief.

however i'm pretty sure that there is nothing in the book of Genesis that even alludes to a world before...or of a 're-creation' of Earth...or any of the other things of claim...

God put a 'stop' to evolution?

You do not know the bible so how can you talk about being sure or not? If what you are indirectly asking for are scripture references, i suggest you do that humbly and politely ok?

nferyn:

You do not believe in the Theory of Evolution if you do not believe in common descent or in the fact that evolution is still happening today. I'm glad though that you have opened your mind for at least part of the evidence.

I have opened my mind but do not intend to loose it to failed-human wisdom

nferyn:


Please explain mitochondria, non-coding DNA and fragments of viral DNA in our genome.
These are clear markers for common descent from micro organisms.

Of course our bodies should have traces of micro-organisms...afterall our bodies were formed from the earth. That is not to say that we descended from micro-organisms.

nferyn:

The differences in DNA between chimpanzees and humans point to a common ancestor about 6 million years ago.

No...it points to the fact that whereas man was created a spirit in Gods image, chimpanzees were formed from the earth, the same place where man got his body (earth- suit, with which he fuctions on the earth) from. This man unlike the early man(or ape-man) has that spark of diviity in him for which reason he is drawn towards God who desires to save and fellowship with him.

nferyn:

We have markers for other 'points of contact' in the tree of life and they all match up with the fossil record and the geometric dating of these fossils. There is currently not one example that contradicts these findings. Only one find that doesn't fit the tree of life would falsify common descent. None have been found yet (and you know that a lot of fossils have been found)

...but their assumptions are wrong.

nferyn:

If we were all descendants of Adam and Eve, this would be visible in our genome. It isn't. Mitochondrial Eve (the common human female ancestor of all humanity - I won't carry the full argument here, because explaining this mechanism would take a few pages - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve for more info) lived about 150.000 years ago.

...you are just looking for every thing possible to use to deny the reality of God which i wouldnt be supprsed you believe exists, but are too proud or should i say, afraid to accept.

nferyn:

there is no physical evidence for such an event. God must have pulled quite a trick out of his sleeve to deceive us so profoundly.

He is to big for such.

nferyn:

Anyway, evolution is still happening today, even in humans, e.g. sickle cell anemia, smaller jaw, lactose tolerance, wisdom teeth becoming less common)

I may not be as vast as you scietifically, but i know a lot more than to be decieved by that.

nferyn:

Again, the evidence points in another direction.

Is that what you call evidence. How can you call those developments (which are merely results of changes in eating habits of humans, diets, nutritional contents or preparation and preservation of our foods or change in some other external or factors) pointers to evolution.

[quote][/quote]

Donnie i commend you for the simple faith you have in the word of God and even with little scientific knowledge you have as you said is unswayed by the "bogus" evidences provided by NL most noted atheist, which i must tell you most of his references are either been found to be untrue or faulted with errors, it is your simple faith i commend and everyone who has the hope of life in them........i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

Why do you assume I haven't read the Bible when that isn't what I said

I have read the Bible, all of it, which is why I don't usually waste my time talking about what is in it...

As for your claim that God put a stop to evolution, I do not recall reading anything that would even allude to that, nor have I heard anyone ever teach this...not even creationists...

What was it that you read/heard that led you to think that God suddenly stopped evolution

p.s.
Do you honestly think that if people read the Bible they will believe everything it says and suddenly become Christians

i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

You keep making these statements, apparently without irony...

nicetohave:

Donnie i commend you for the simple faith you have in the word of God and even with little scientific knowledge you have as you said is unswayed by the "bogus" evidences provided by NL most noted atheist,

You call ignorance a virtue. At least Donnie is honest in his replies. Which is more than what I can say about you. Is deceit in the name of the Lord a virtue nowadays?

nicetohave:

which i must tell you most of his references are either been found to be untrue or faulted with errors,

Once more: where are these faults? Show them to me. You have not been able to discredit even one of my statements. You either try to duck the questions or resort to a [i]liberal [/i]treatment of the truth. Your intellectual dishonesty is telling.

nicetohave:

it is your simple faith i commend and everyone who has the hope of life in them........i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

Unsupported statements. Where is the meat of your argument?
untrue work of other humans: which work?
far fetched-work of other humans: which work?
humans who have considerable doubts in their own very work: which humans?
This is nothing but slander and character assassination.

donnie:

I have opened my mind but do not intend to loose it to failed-human wisdom

What failed human wisdom? For what reason do you call if failed?

donnie:

Of course our bodies should have traces of micro-organisms...afterall our bodies were formed from the earth. That is not to say that we descended from micro-organisms.

Indeed, we only have a symbiotic relation with them on a cellular level, except for the earlier life forms of which we do descend. What do you mean by formed from the earth?

donnie:

No...it points to the fact that whereas man was created a spirit in Gods image, chimpanzees were formed from the earth, the same place where man got his body (earth- suit, with which he fuctions on the earth) from.

Explain to me the mechanism of that formation and how that exactly points to these numbers. M-DNA studies have an exact mechanism to show for and their evidence coincides with other cladistic studies, radiometric dating of the fossils and morphological changes in the fossil record.

donnie:

This man unlike the early man(or ape-man) has that spark of diviity in him for which reason he is drawn towards God who desires to save and fellowship with him.

Where's the evidence supporting this?
Oh, I understand.... Poof.... Goddidit

donnie:

...but their assumptions are wrong.

Which assumptions are wrong and for what reason are they wrong?

donnie:

...you are just looking for every thing possible to use to deny the reality of God which i wouldnt be supprsed you believe exists, but are too proud or should i say, afraid to accept.

This is the summit of projection. You ascribe to me what is one of the main drivers of religion: fear. The concept of a supreme being is so much in contradiction with logic and the natural world that I have trouble understanding that an intelligent human can believe in such a thing, except if driven by fear and social pressure.

donnie:

He is to big for such.

But why don't we find any evidence then? What's the purpose of a God that does everything to divorce himself from his creation up to the point of leaving no evidence for his existence behind?

donnie:

[SNIP]
Is that what you call evidence. How can you call those developments (which are merely results of changes in eating habits of humans, diets, nutritional contents or preparation and preservation of our foods or change in some other external or factors) pointers to evolution.

Changes in diet have no direct impact on our genome. Only through evolution do these changes impact our DNA. It is exactly so that the selective environment of humans has changed drastically and that these changes have ensured that the mutations causing e.g. lactose tolerance have beneficial effects on our survival, hence their preservation in our DNA: evolution at work.

i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

You keep making these statements, apparently without irony...

Quote from: nicetohave on Yesterday at 09:43:45 PM
Donnie i commend you for the simple faith you have in the word of God and even with little scientific knowledge you have as you said is unswayed by the "bogus" evidences provided by NL most noted atheist,

You call ignorance a virtue. At least Donnie is honest in his replies. Which is more than what I can say about you. Is deceit in the name of the Lord a virtue nowadays?


Quote from: nicetohave on Yesterday at 09:43:45 PM
which i must tell you most of his references are either been found to be untrue or faulted with errors,

Once more: where are these faults? Show them to me.  You have not been able to discredit even one of my statements. You either try to duck the questions or resort to a liberal treatment of the truth. Your intellectual dishonesty is telling.


Quote from: nicetohave on Yesterday at 09:43:45 PM
it is your simple faith i commend and everyone who has the hope of life in them........i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

Unsupported statements. Where is the meat of your argument?
untrue work of other humans: which work?
far fetched-work of other humans: which work?
humans who have considerable doubts in their own very work: which humans?
This is nothing but slander and character assassination.

I am done with showing you whatever proof ive got of the existence of God,i am not intellectually destitude i just stop short at continuing to make needless contributions.if you have made enough research to conclude there is no God in existence, well to you so be it; you brought in evolution and loudly applaud it yet you don't know the errors in it glaring you in the face, what are you defending? your statements or evolution? the theory of evolution is faulted in many ways, carbon dating in itself is masked with a lot of errors.i think you should do more reasearch into evolution instead of just reading articles pasted on websites.

nicetohave:

I am done with showing you whatever proof ive got of the existence of God,i am not intellectually destitude i just stop short at continuing to make needless contributions.if you have made enough research to conclude there is no God in existence, well to you so be it;

Apparently you are easier swayed by weak argumentation than I am. It's obvious you cannot make the case for the existence of God on a logical or intellectual base, because the source for your belief is neither logical nor intelectual, it's emotional at the core. Intellectually you use some weak apologetics to defend your case, but that's only after you've already made up your mind on emotional grounds

Why would God need apologists to defend his existence in the first place?

nicetohave:

you brought in evolution and loudly applaud it yet you don't know the errors in it glaring you in the face, what are you defending?

Once more, be precise. What errors are you talking about?

nicetohave:

your statements or evolution? the theory of evolution is faulted in many ways, carbon dating in itself is masked with a lot of errors.i think you should do more reasearch into evolution instead of just reading articles pasted on websites.

Of course carbon dating has its problems, it's a contextual methods and the environment where fossils are found can be contaminated. Some fossils have been incorrectly dated at first, but these mistakes have been rectified later on. Show me a serious, representative sample of errors in carbon dating that are sufficient to discredit the method. I bet you cannot because it isn't there.

I have done my research on evolution, thank you. Have you?
Please read these books on evolution I have read before you accuse me of not having done my research:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060199067/qid=1135674443/sr=8-8/ref=pd_bbs_8/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007NLUP4/qid=1135674525/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618005838/qid=1135674566/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393315703/qid=1135674625/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192860925/qid=1135674625/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618335404/qid=1135674625/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618056734/qid=1135674625/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393316823/qid=1135674625/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192880519/qid=1135674625/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192880519/qid=1135674625/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670031518/qid=1135674894/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393318486/qid=1135674894/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060958332/qid=1135674894/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385334303/qid=1135674973/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568361637/qid=1135674973/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568361041/qid=1135675066/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
and numerous online articles and debates

Apparently you are easier swayed by weak argumentation than I am. It's obvious you cannot make the case for the existence of God on a logical or intellectual base, because the source for your belief is neither logical nor intelectual, it's emotional at the core. Intellectually you use some weak apologetics to defend your case, but that's only after you've already made up your mind on emotional grounds

Why would God need apologists to defend his existence in the first place?

apparently something i didnt make clear to you is God does not need intellectualism to prove his existence neither does he need any man to defend him, if you call that some weak apologetics then so be it......you are hitting at the core of the matter, God uses the base/weak things of the earth to confound the intellectuals and the wise, so yes my words may not convince you but as i have told you time and again, that is all is required of me, why should i offer more? how can "mortality" explain or defend immortality? rather the immortal one will prove himself in my weak apologetics.

Why would God need apologists to defend his existence in the first place?

on this issue nferyn, you are right.God needs no apologists to defend his existence, infact he needs no one to defend his existence, unlike evolution.if we would discuss the topic of evolution we would start from the beginning and see where it can't be the explanation for our existence today; we can start a new thread on that.

It is weak but ironically that is all that is required of me, to declare it, not defend it......he has enough life in him to defend himself.

@ nicetohave
Nice of you to admit that there is no intellectual base for your god belief. The only problem with these declarations is that they are nonsensical.
Only someone who puts faith before reason, someone who values belief above intellect, someone who possesses a spirit of obedience rather than a spirit of inquiry and curiosity could possibly join this flock. There are many who do prefer the comfortable blanket of religion to protect them from the cold hard reality of life's existence.

nicetohave:

on this issue nferyn, you are right.God needs no apologists to defend his existence, infact he needs no one to defend his existence, unlike evolution.if we would discuss the topic of evolution we would start from the beginning and see where it can't be the explanation for our existence today; we can start a new thread on that.

You continue declaring that there are problems with evolution without bringing any arguments to the debate. Maybe you should start a thread on the topic if you're up to the task.

Interestingly i am one of those, because even though it sounds foolish and devoid of reason, it makes more sense that all the scientific evidence put together, i mean what is the use of a knowledge that cannot give me life? In God is life, and his life is the light of men, where science has failed me, God has bared me up and through.....and i didnt believe in him because i am some weak slowpoke but because he has got far more than reason could offer me, not because i was born into it because no man is born in the flesh into christ, it is by the grace of God which interestingly has appeared to all me but which some has chosen to ignore.

not because i was born into it because no man is born in the flesh into christ

so you weren't "encouraged" by your family to go to church, learn about "God" etc

Indeed i was, but i am not where i am today because of that, i made a conscious decision to remain in it, nferyn once went to catholic church and made a conscious decision to leave because to him "God does not exist" my stand is, at some point where you are is by your own design not by any genealogical compulsion.........our colonial masters may have helped put us where we are today but surely they have no hand in the continuous sacrilegious acts being perpetuated in every corners of our society......?

nicetohave:

Interestingly i am one of those, because even though it sounds foolish and devoid of reason, it makes more sense that all the scientific evidence put together, i mean what is the use of a knowledge that cannot give me life? In God is life, and his life is the light of men, where science has failed me, God has bared me up and through.and i didnt believe in him because i am some weak slowpoke but because he has got far more than reason could offer me, not because i was born into it because no man is born in the flesh into christ, it is by the grace of God which interestingly has appeared to all me but which some has chosen to ignore.

This makes far more sense to me than all the intellectual justifications for your belief. Your belief fulfils an emotional need. Why didn't you admit this to start with.

it fulfils more than emotional needs.......and it makes more sense than all of science put together but as i said, it is not an emotional opium, it is a life-giving way.

nicetohave:

it fulfils more than emotional needs.and it makes more sense than all of science put together but as i said, it is not an emotional opium, it is a life-giving way.

It makes sense because you have a need for purpose. This is an emotional need. Calling it a life-giving way is just another label for the same.
It is very true that science does not give purpose. It only explains the natural world. It has no pretenses to give purpose or direction to anybody's life. Science only addresses the how, not the why.
I find my purpose in my family, children and friends. That's all I need.

in a way i can see where your spirituals deficiency is facing, you are only concerned about the seen world which is how, and not the unseen spiritual world which is why, but the difference is what is seen is temporary but the unseen is eternal, when your family and children and friends pass away before your eyes, what will be left of the purpose which you find in them?