if one affirms any sort of infallibility for the Church’s determination of the canon by any process), how can one deny it to the Church’s theology?

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Finally..

I don't actually believe most reading this will understand neither is it of any use to them, if they don't understand it

rottennaija:
I don't actually believe most reading this will understand neither is it of any use to them, if they don't understand it

What do you mean?

damariox:


What do you mean?

What I mean is, Most people will not understand how important what you posted is. Maybe you need to break it down in lay man's term

rottennaija:


What I mean is,. Osteoporosis people will not understand how important what you posted is. Maybe you need to break it down in lay man's term

But you did understand it?

damariox:


But you did understand it?

Sure, I do and I also understand it's significance. Jws believe that after the dead of the apostles, apostasy started. By their current doctrine, there where no true Christian from that time, first century till Russell came on board in 1800s. Basically, the period covering 1900 was a period of darkness, no one worship God or very few.

The problem is that if their congecture is true or half true, it's mean we can't even trust what we call the holy Bible. Because it's during the third century that the church fathers, those who the jw doctrine called apostate Christian, that actually selected what we know to make up the books of the Bible today.

So how can we trust the Bible. Assembled by apostate church fathers under the control of Satan? I'm still waiting to see how the gb of jw will spin their story around this

rottennaija:

So how can we truth the Bible. Assembled by apostate church fathers under the control of Satan? I'm still waiting to see how the gb of jw will spin their story around this

Wow Wow.. You got it all perfect.i didn't actually corner the question to just jws. Is a food for thought for all anti orthodox churches or Christian sects, most worrisome is the Jehovah's Witnesses
Are you a jw?

The simple question was who should declare a Canon closed man or God?
If men, infallible men did the collection and closing of the NT canon then why should sects 1400 years (muraton) and 500 AD (council of trent) denounce the church fathers inspiration and guidance?

damariox:


Wow Wow.. You got it all perfect.i didn't actually corner the question to just jws. Is a food for thought for all anti orthodox churches or Christian sects, most worrisome is the Jehovah's Witnesses
Are you a jw?

Technically... My body still there but my heart is far removed from them

damariox:
The simple question was who should declare a Canon closed man or God?
If men, infallible men did the collection and closing of the NT canon then why should sects 1400 years (muraton) and 500 AD (council of trent) denounce the church fathers inspiration and guidance?

an honest and innocent question pls: which church do you attend? I just want to know.

You are very right about what you just said.

rottennaija:


Technically... My body still there but my heart is far removed from them

hmm, i understand what you are saying! I am not out to condemn anyone as i understand that people should do that which they can relate to when it comes to believes. I am not going to impose my views on anyone but there are certain things that are just basic and the question of who decided the canon of the bible is one.

NB: i am an atheist but find intellectual discussions like this interesting. It is not all the time atheists and theists should go at eac other.

Joeagbaje, you may be interested in this topic; but if you are not, then it is ok to stay away.

MiddleDimension:


an honest and innocent question pls: which church do you attend? I just want to know.

You are very right about what you just said.

Well i was a Jehovah's Witnesses since birth until my mid twenties.
Now I think am an atheist

rottennaija:


Technically... My body still there but my heart is far removed from them

I feel your pain bro. Jw is an organized cult most it's members hearts are no longer there but they are so scared to loose their family because of getting shunned

I guess that's the delimma you're facing. Take your time and be very careful

damariox:


I feel your pain bro. Jw is an organized cult most it's members hearts are no longer there but they are so scared to loose their family because of getting shunned

I guess that's the delimma you're facing. Take your time and be very careful

You understand completely

damariox:


Well i was a Jehovah's Witnesses since birth until my mid twenties.
Now I think am an atheist

now some believers especially of the pentecostal extraction, would come here claiming that your now becoming an atheist is the tell-tale sign that Jehovah's withness is a dead church; the same way they tell us that catholicism leads to atheism, hence its an evidence that catholicism is bad.

Donnie, Joeagbaje, Oladegbu, ubenedictus

MiddleDimension:


now some believers especially of the pentecostal extraction, would come here claiming that your now becoming an atheist is the tell-tale sign that Jehovah's withness is a dead church; the same way they tell us that catholicism leads to atheism, hence its an evidence that catholicism is bad.

Donnie, Joeagbaje, Oladegbu, ubenedictus

No religion could be said to be all good or all wrong, except for some liberal religions. All religions are popular for selling controversial lies which they force it's members to buy or leave

damariox:
The simple question was who should declare a Canon closed man or God?
If men, infallible men did the collection and closing of the NT canon then why should sects 1400 years (muraton) and 500 AD (council of trent) denounce the church fathers inspiration and guidance?

who ever tagged me here I thank you immensely, I haven't checked my mentions in a long time

thank you.


damariox. I wish to correct something the council of Trent was held about 500years ago but it never, I repeat it NEVER denounced the church fathers, in fact the canon of Trent is exactly the same as the canon set by the Church fathers. please correct yourself.

damariox:
The simple question was who should declare a Canon closed man or God?
If men, infallible men did the collection and closing of the NT canon then why should sects 1400 years (muraton) and 500 AD (council of trent) denounce the church fathers inspiration and guidance?

both closed the canon, God using men as instruments did .

damariox:
if one affirms any sort of infallibility for the Church’s determination of the canon by any process), how can one deny it to the Church’s theology?

cannon is not infalible . There are books that ought to have been canonised alongside. but due to human error were omitted

MiddleDimension:
Joeagbaje, you may be interested in this topic; but if you are not, then it is ok to stay away.

I didn't get the mention . Because the moniker s joagbaje not joeagbaje

hmm, i understand what you are saying! I am not out to condemn anyone as i understand that people should do that which they can relate to when it comes to believes. I am not going to impose my views on anyone but there are certain things that are just basic and the question of who decided the canon of the bible is one.

Some book were omitted probably for some political reasons . I don't se a reason why the book of Enoch or the book of jasher should be removed . Even the apostles quoted from them in their epistles .

Ubenedictus:


who ever tagged me here I thank you immensely, I haven't checked my mentions in a long time

thank you.


damariox. I wish to correct something the council of Trent was held about 500years ago but it never, I repeat it NEVER denounced the church fathers, in fact the canon of Trent is exactly the same as the canon set by the Church fathers. please correct yourself.

That was a mistake and it seems i can't modify the comment. Council of trent was 1549AD. I meant to say 500 years ago not AD

The first attempt on Christian or NT Scriptures Cannon was "marcion canon "
It was his heresies that gave need or rise for a Canon that will encompass both the Jewish established canon and Christian Scriptures. The earliest known canon was meito, Bishop of Sardis (170ce) without the book of Esther

2nd century canon was the muratorian
And it survived until the 16th century declaration of a closed canon in council of trent (Martin Luther) similar with the 2nd century muratorian

What did these bishops or church fathers considered for criterion for determining canon and ordering to close it? Was is power play or Providence?
[code]
our faith in the Bible Cannon cannot be greater than our trust in the church because they determined it

Ubenedictus:


both closed the canon, God using men as instruments did .

How? Individual Scriptures didn't tell us about a collection of various books to form a library

Joagbaje:


I didn't get the mention . Because the moniker s joagbaje not joeagbaje




Some book were omitted probably for some political reasons . I don't se a reason why the book of Enoch or the book of jasher should be removed . Even the apostles quoted from them in their epistles .

your agreeing that the book of jasher and that of enoch should both be in the bible is because they were mentioned in the old testament, a book you already accept is true. Your agreement with it is not based on what you read in them (and i am sure you've never read any of them before).

The thread has a question: "who determins the cannon of scripture?". Since you agree that they were removed, it means you agree that some people must have compiled these books. So the question is: who were they?

MiddleDimension:

your agreeing that the book of jasher and that of enoch should both be in the bible is because they were mentioned in the old testament,

They were quoted in the new testament as well

Your agreement with it is not based on what you read in them (and i am sure you've never read any of them before).

I have read the book of Enoch and the book of jasher to a great extent

The thread has a question: "who determins the cannon of scripture?". Since you agree that they were removed, it means you agree that some people must have compiled these books. So the question is: who were they?

The church fathers did for the new testament . soe of the books were missing before until the were found in the cave of cumram apart from the dead sea scrolls. some of the jewish leaders rejected some books because it talks about jesus

damariox:


That was a mistake and it seems i can't modify the comment. Council of trent was 1549AD. I meant to say 500 years ago not AD

The first attempt on Christian or NT Scriptures Cannon was "marcion canon "
It was his heresies that gave need or rise for a Canon that will encompass both the Jewish established canon and Christian Scriptures. The earliest known canon was meito, Bishop of Sardis (170ce) without the book of Esther

2nd century canon was the muratorian
And it survived until the 16th century declaration of a closed canon in council of trent (Martin Luther) similar with the 2nd century muratorian

What did these bishops or church fathers considered for criterion for determining canon and ordering to close it? Was is power play or Providence?
[code]
our faith in the Bible Cannon cannot be greater than our trust in the church because they determined it

the Muratorium itself was a local canon, it was superceded by the canon of the council of hippo and Carthage.

the muratorian canon didn't have 1st and 2nd Peter, nor James, it wasn't read in those Church....
hence the church fathers in council of hippo and Carthage put forth the complete canon.

damariox:


How? Individual Scriptures didn't tell us about a collection of various books to form a library

the Church is established by Jesus with the power of binding and losing, he promised to be with her always and promised to give her the holy spirit to lead her into all Truth. with that I make bold to say that the church has the authority to gather whatever books she believes edifies and from the canon of scripture as she is led by the holy spirit .


the church is authoritative and I believe infallible whenever she authoritatively declare the Christian truth. she is and was authoritative when she declared the canon of scripture at the council of hippo and Carthage, she was authoritative when she confirmed the same canon at the council of Florence and the Lateran council, she was authoritative when she confirmed and closed the canon at the council of Trent. she is guided by the holy spirit, she has authority.

rottennaija:

Sure, I do and I also understand it's significance. Jws believe that after the dead of the apostles, apostasy started. By their current doctrine, there where no true Christian from that time, first century till Russell came on board in 1800s. Basically, the period covering 1900 was a period of darkness, no one worship God or very few.

The problem is that if their congecture is true or half true, it's mean we can't even trust what we call the holy Bible. Because it's during the third century that the church fathers, those who the jw doctrine called apostate Christian, that actually selected what we know to make up the books of the Bible today.

So how can we trust the Bible. Assembled by apostate church fathers under the control of Satan? I'm still waiting to see how the gb of jw will spin their story around this

not just Jehovah's witness, most Protestant churches believe that the church fell into apostasy after the death of the apostles ask any Protestant pastor. some say 100yrs, later others say 300yrs, others say since Constantine, but all of the call Jesus a liar indirectly since they claim the devil took over the church after Jesus clearly say the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.


it is funny because every Protestant Church begin under the assumption that the gates of hell prevailed, hence the need to form new churches allegedly better than the older ones.

Joagbaje:


They were quoted in the new testament as well



I have read the book of Enoch and the book of jasher to a great extent



The church fathers did for the new testament . soe of the books were missing before until the were found in the cave of cumram apart from the dead sea scrolls. some of the jewish leaders rejected some books because it talks about jesus

the church fathers did set the entire canon. but why do you think that because a book was quoted by an apostle then it must be scripture.

damariox:
if one affirms any sort of infallibility for the Church’s determination of the canon by any process), how can one deny it to the Church’s theology?

I don't deny infallibility for the church's theology so I guess the question isn't for me.