Viaro dude, slow your roll. You are beginning to sound like some of these money mongers fleecing the flock bling in the name of our Lord.

You don't know me enough to make these sophomoric assumptions but you sure are entitled to your opinion no matter how idiotic, no wonder some folks thought you were someone else who used to frequent here but has somehow disappeared but I couldn't care less even if you admitted you were.

If it quacks like a duck, it certainly will be a duck, food for thought! You are on the NEED TO KNOW basis and I don't see a need to elevate your privileges to let you into what I do or how I live my Christian life, (let's just hope you're not "pastoring" those ashawo girls in Italy and trying to justify what they do )

I am practical enough to know how and when I should give and to whom, are you trying to tell me that just because some folks now don't want to give to the Haiti relief through the Red Cross means they are too stingy to give? think about that for a minute because you continue your unholy rant. This is a Nigerian FORUM last time I checked, ( coffin for head of state might make a good reference for you)

May God forgive us all!
Shalom.

@ogajim,

I sure must've touched a nerve on a sore spot that got your attention, no? Good. I just wanted you to know that I don't pastor any flock - not near your experience with handling Italian girls, if that's what shines in your CV. Slobs who go about with every wind of idiotic doublespeak like you do will sure make an empire out of your sanctimony that does no one any good.

Since you're deaf to an invitation to discuss a simple topic and want to draw out what you can't handle, you'll have truckloads without charge as long as you keep up your idiocy.

ogajim:

I am practical enough to know how and when I should give and to whom, are you trying to tell me that just because some folks now don't want to give to the Haiti relief through the Red Cross means they are too stingy to give?

You're obviously a consummate twerp! Did you read me anywhere denying anyone the privlege of giving to Haiti relief efforts or to the Red Cross? Where? Quote me directly! Are you now so desperate you must LIE on top of everything? This is why buffoons like you will troll every thread with your idiocy and lie on top of everything when you run out of steam! Ultra-shanky turd!

think about that for a minute because you continue your unholy rant.

Aye. . tosspot! Did you vacate your thinking faculty in your own rant?

This is a Nigerian FORUM last time I checked, ( coffin for head of state might make a good reference for you)

And the INTERNET belongs only to Nigerians, no? Did you check the last time that your profile indicates you are nowhere near Nigeria - or is that another shiny lie on your CV?

May God forgive us all!

Yes, after spewing your stupidity you will cover up with sanctimonious one-liners. Dummkopf.

@Pastor AIO
Eccles. 10:19
, but money answereth all things.

Pastor AIO:

@Joagbaje, Do you consider this statement to be true, from your experience of life?

I quoted the scripture to buttres the fact that money is medium of exchange. If you read the write up before i quote the scripture. I didnt say money perfect people .But talking about perfection.There are two kinds of perfection. The gift by grace through christ and the second one has to do with maturity. The issue of perfection (maturity)came from Christ which has to do with a level of growth ,maturity attained by denial ,sacrifice and, conquering greed and covetousness, through giving money.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Now this viaro "DUDE" is sounding more and more like  

You can't touch a nerve or sore spot with me at all because I have experience ignoring folks who have nothing useful to contribute to a given situation. The Haiti relief example remains that- an EXAMPLE but i guess you're too full or your own self to realize that. It was a QUESTION.

I have never been to Italy (if that's where you really are) and really have no intention of going there when I have OPTIONS to go elsewhere in the EU, UK, etc.

There is a certain Nigerian "ting" to what we discuss on here and no amount of digital "fish wrap" experience can give you the whole picture, out of sight is not out of mind for most of us so even if I don't reside in Nigeria at the moment, I can't escape being a Nigerian even if I wanted to.

I refuse to stoop too low to be calling you names, I have standards below which I don't operate.

Fela's ODOO comes to mind as another reference going going forward

ogajim:

Now this viaro "DUDE" is sounding more and more like

Like what? Belch it out and you'll get the same thing I reserve for dolts like you. I was trying to be reasonable with you until you showed you can't contain yourself until you throw up your stupidity my way. Try me.

You can't touch a nerve or sore spot with me at all because I have experience ignoring folks who have nothing useful to contribute to a given situation.

Good - then zip it and say nothing! If a nerve in you was not touched, why are you at pains to come back trying to cover your dirty face with verbal cosmetics? I, for one, don't take twerps like you with kids glove, and I won't even try and pretend to be nice to tosspots like you who can't be healed from your dementia.

The Haiti relief example remains that- an EXAMPLE but i guess you're too full or your own self to realize that. It was a QUESTION.

You're a double idiot. Where did viaro ever try to deny anyone the right or privilege to donate towards the Haiti relief efforts as you previously hinted? If I didn't say any such thing, why bring in that stupid illation to make it look like that was what I was about here in this thread?

I have never been to Italy (if that's where you really are) and really have no intention of going there when I have OPTIONS to go elsewhere in the EU, UK, etc.

And your point is. . .? Who wants dolts like you in Italy? Since you throw the 'Italian girls' thingy in my way, I only served you back pronto - can't handle your own dirty games, no?

There is a certain Nigerian "ting" to what we discuss on here and no amount of digital "fish wrap" experience can give you the whole picture, out of sight is not out of mind for most of us so even if I don't reside in Nigeria at the moment, I can't escape being a Nigerian even if I wanted to.

Thankfully, not many Nigerians are tosspots like you, or we would have been very sorry that you claim to be one. What is the Nigerian 'ting' that you can't discuss until you desperately run from pillar to post insinuating all sorts of what I never once inferred?

I refuse to stoop too low to be calling you names, I have standards below which I don't operate.

You don't operate what is above and beyond you - so just zip it. On the other hand, I don't have stomach for silly trumps like you.

Fela's ODOO comes to mind as another reference going going forward

Yes, we know you can't resist adding up the multiinfarct dementia to your CV. Well done.

@Joagbaje,

Perhaps this is the first time I would address you. I've tried to follow some of your posts to see just what you're putting forward - although I have not gone through everything to make an informed opinion, there seems to be cause for concern in your post above. Good sense in some of the things you stated, but here is the problem -

Joagbaje:

The issue of perfection (maturity)came from Christ which has to do with a level of growth ,maturity attained by denial ,sacrifice and, conquering greed and covetousness, through giving money.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Indeed, part of the process of our growing into maturity involves denial, sacrifice - and conquering greed and covetousness. But I'm not so sure that the last two bits ('conquering greed and covetousness') are obtained through giving money. Maybe this is one reason why some have had some problems with your posts in the past? I don't know.

However, it seems to me that while we should beware of covetousness (Luke 12:15), the struggle is often depicted as a spiritual event, and the resources to overcome are also rather spiritual. I don't want to sound presumptive, but let me refer you to a few examples:

(a) Paul experienced this same struggle in Romans 7:7 - 'I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet'.

(b) He goes on to recognize the real problem in Rom. 7:14 - 'For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.'

(c) Of course, his way of overcoming this was not through giving money, but rather as expressed in Rom. 8:2 - 'For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.'

It seems that is the principle found in so many passages and follows that pattern: we overcome these issues by the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and not by material things - and I think that aletheia has repeatedly pointed this very thing to us.

@Joagbaje,

i think you need a job in the bank, maybe the position of vault manager 

Odikwa very very RISKY oooooo, everything na money for these people.

viaro:

@Joagbaje,

Perhaps this is the first time I would address you. I've tried to follow some of your posts to see just what you're putting forward - although I have not gone through everything to make an informed opinion, there seems to be cause for concern in your post above. Good sense in some of the things you stated, but here is the problem -

Indeed, part of the process of our growing into maturity involves denial, sacrifice - and conquering greed and covetousness. But I'm not so sure that the last two bits ('conquering greed and covetousness') are obtained through giving money. Maybe this is one reason why some have had some problems with your posts in the past? I don't know.

However, it seems to me that while we should beware of covetousness (Luke 12:15), the struggle is often depicted as a spiritual event, and the resources to overcome are also rather spiritual. I don't want to sound presumptive, but let me refer you to a few examples:

(a) Paul experienced this same struggle in Romans 7:7 - 'I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet'.

(b) He goes on to recognize the real problem in Rom. 7:14 - 'For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.'

(c) Of course, his way of overcoming this was not through giving money, but rather as expressed in Rom. 8:2 - 'For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.'

It seems that is the principle found in so many passages and follows that pattern: we overcome these issues by the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and not by material things - and I think that aletheia has repeatedly pointed this very thing to us.

I dont really get your point. Maybe youre missing me somewhere., You may explain yoursef better. Your response has no relevance to what I was saying. except i miss your point.

@ Zikky

Zikkyy:

@Joagbaje,

i think you need a job in the bank, maybe the position of vault manager

I am richer than the banks thanks for the offer.

Joagbaje:

I dont really get your point. Maybe youre missing me somewhere., You may explain yoursef better. Your response has no relevance to what I was saying. except i miss your point.

Okay, let me try again.

This is part of what you said:

Joagbaje:

The issue of perfection (maturity)came from Christ which has to do with a level of growth ,maturity attained by denial ,sacrifice and, conquering greed and covetousness, through giving money.

The part that was of concern to me is the one highlighted, viz - 'conquering greed and covetousness, through giving money.'

I was wondering if the Bible teaches that it is by giving money that a Christian is supposed to conquer greed and covetousness. That seems to be what your statement indicates; and that was why I tried to point out that the Bible teaches something other than that. The point in mine was that, Scripture shows us that only by the power of the Holy Spirit could we hope to live a life that conquers such things, and it is not by giving money.

There are people who are covetous without necessarily focusing on money. Covetousness takes different forms, and because both believers and non-believers face this problem, we are warned to beware of covetousness (Luke 12:15).

However, for many people the form of covetousness is not about money but on other things (such as coveting someone else's wife - Exo. 20:17). The Bible shows that "from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness" (Jer. 6:13) - in such a situation, how are those people to conquer covetousness? Is it through "giving money", as you said? Is "giving money" the recommended way to conquer greed and covetousness? What would you say about how Paul overcame the same problem in Romans 7 and 8?

I hope this will help you understand what I posted earlier.

@Viaro
If you had followed my point of emphasis you would not lose me. I was answering to those whose always attack the mention of money in Gods kingdom for reasons i dont know. And i wanted to make it clear without apology that giving of money is not only part of sowing and reaping but play a very vital role. There It is easier to give material things than give money , there is a strong attachment people have to money( mammon worship) .That is why people find it hard to give. theyve not been able to conquer greed and covetousness. A man may be able to give his car,but if he should sell it and give the money, it becomes harder. Annanias and his wife gave land to God but when they sold it, covetousness did not allow them to bring the money, they even died for it. Jesus could have told the rich man to give out his property,but he told him if he wants to attain maturity(perfect) he should sell them ,convert them to money first and give out in cash.Jesus commended the widow that gave all she had.

But God wants us to conquer this inability. There are two kinds of covetousnes. Crave for things and inability to give I was not talking about the craving after things but the attachment of not letting go. especially of money which is harder to give. Didnt you see how people quickly attack giving of money in the thread. That was the point I was driving at. Im not saying "if you desire your neighbour's wife ,give money and the covetousnes will go"

Joagbaje:

@Viaro
If you had followed my point of emphasis you would not lose me. I was answering to those whose always attack the mention of money in Gods kingdom for reasons i dont know.

Just so that you are in the clear I'll explain the reasons why people react negatively to the mention of money in the church. It is because of the rampant and widespread existence of greedy, evil church organisations that fleece the very poor that they are supposed to be helping. There are so many of these churches in Nigeria and also in the united states. These people lie and twist the scriptures in any way possible to convince you to give all your possessions to them in order to fund their lavish and obnoxious lifestyles.
These people are not from God but are wolves in sheep's clothing. It is for this reason that people get defensive once money is mentioned in Church. It is not every mention of money is criminal, but the ubiquity of criminal churches that bang on about money leads people to raise their guard once money is mentioned. If however we find that the mention of money is legitimate then there is no reason to continue to criticize the request for money.

Joagbaje, I'm afraid that you belong to that category of illegitimate, bible twisting school of attempting to extort money from the poor and innocent.

Pastor AIO:

Joagbaje, I'm afraid that you belong to that category of illegitimate, bible twisting school of attempting to extort money from the poor and innocent.

Stop exposing your lack of understanding of scriptures and derailing thread unnesessarily. You belong to the group that attacks giving of money in churches because you dont give. Your stand and attacks against churches and men of God are unscriptural. For those of us that give ,the testimony of our giving is enough proof.

But pastor agbaje it as been established on this forum that you are a receiver and not a giver. Is it not becos of your selfish and greedy desire to keep on receiving money without working for it that you keep twisting everything in the bible to mean giving to church/ lazy pastors like yourself?

Annunaki:

But pastor agbaje it as been established on this forum that you are a receiver and not a giver. Is it not becos of your selfish and greedy desire to keep on receiving money without working for it that you keep twisting everything in the bible to mean giving to church/ lazy pastors like yourself?

If he is a pastor what is your own headache? Are pastors not givers?. Every pastor i know are the most sacrificiall people. If pastor would not give ,he will run broke.
I think we should focus on the Topic of the thread.

The bible says he that kill by the sword shall die by the sword. These are not just judgement but reference to the law of sowing and reaping. Which means there is ripple effect on every thing that happens on this planet.
A wicked king Adoni-bezek in the bible days was brutally totured by the israelites by cutting off his thumb and toe. but unknowingly to them, he had done the same thing to others before. The law caught up with him.

Judges 1:6-7
But Adoni-bezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes. [7] And Adoni-bezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.

Giving is a universal law, giving is not limited to religion, even a non christian can give and he will certainly receive. We give our time, talents, skills, gifts and money too. What a man sow he will reap, but the manner of giving matter as well for God hate pple that give grudgingly but he loves joyful givers. Every man is to give based on his ability and revelation, not grudgingly but joyfully weather to God or man, is more blessed to give than to receive. God is a giver, he gave his ONLY begotten son. So if i have his life in me,then i can give my ONLY money today.

Joagbaje:

Stop exposing your lack of understanding of scriptures and derailing thread unnesessarily. You belong to the group that attacks giving of money in churches because you dont give. Your stand and attacks against churches and men of God are unscriptural. For those of us that give ,the testimony of our giving is enough proof.

Why shouldn't I expose my lack of understanding, if indeed I lack understanding? After all how else will I learn unless it is evident that I need to learn. Menh, don't gag me. Let me talk and if in talking it turns out that I lack knowledge and subsequently acquire the required knowledge then isn't that a good thing. Unlike you, I don't claim superior knowledge to anybody, but I know what I know.

But I know why you said what you said. You are trying to claim superiority to me. and having done so you hope to gag me from speaking my mind at all. Well I'm afraid it won't work. I am not impressed by you and your shenanigans and I will always state what I believe. And right now I believe that you are an hoax.

Joagbaje:

The bible says he that kill by the sword shall die by the sword. [/b]These are not just judgement but reference to the law of sowing and reaping. Which means there is ripple effect on every thing that happens on this planet.
A wicked king Adoni-bezek in the bible days was brutally totured by the israelites by cutting off his thumb and toe. but unknowingly to them, he had done the same thing to others before. The law caught up with him.

[b]Judges 1:6-7
But Adoni-bezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes. [7] And Adoni-bezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.

Actually, "Mr superior knowledge" what the bible says is He who [b]LIVES [/b]by the sword shall die by the sword. But that apart, you actually have a point and now we're getting to the crux of the giving and receiving matter.

What is sown is not the gifts (whether of money or otherwise) but something altogether more subtle. The spirit with which the gift is given. If I give money solely for the reason that I want to receive money in return than what I'll reap is that manipulative spirit with which I sowed in the first place.

However if I give out of compassion, no matter how much, then what I will reap is the compassion. I'll be repaid by compassion in my dealing with others. The attitude and the spirit in which an act is done is what goes forth and then returns to the actor in multifold.

If I give money in church so that God can smite my enemies, then that wicked intention will manifest against me in my life.

If I give money in church so that my business can profit better then I'll possibly find that my employees do not care for my business but rather are only there for what money they can make out of it. Their level of commitment will be low. Subsequently, my business will do badly.

If I am a thief and I tithe of my earnings because I believe that that way God will help secure my ill-gotten gains, I'll might find that those gains will sooner or later be appropriated by another thief in as callous a way as I acquired it.

nuella2:

Giving is a universal law, giving is not limited to religion, even a non christian can give and he will certainly receive. We give our time, talents, skills, gifts and money too. What a man sow he will reap, but the manner of giving matter as well for God hate pple that give grudgingly but he loves joyful givers. Every man is to give based on his ability and revelation, not grudgingly but joyfully weather to God or man, is more blessed to give than to receive. God is a giver, he gave his ONLY begotten son. So if i have his life in me,then i can give my ONLY money today.

Yes, but what is of the essence is not the material aspect of giving but the spirit of the giving. Very true that God hates a grudging giver. He also hates a hateful giver, and a covetous giver, and a greedy giver. He loves the Joyful giver, the loving giver, the truthful giver.

^^^^ Brilliant Pastor.

I am soooooo tired of the whole idea of "giving" in expectation of a reward.

That is not "giving" but a calculated investment no different from a Shylock.

It's quite obvious now that these guys are in it for the money, I don't see how "shaming" someone into any form of giving helps that giver in the short or long term.

All these schemes are carefully designed to fleece the flock dry with fake doctrines and what have you, God help us all.


Shalom.

Deep Sight:

^^^^ Brilliant Pastor.
I am soooooo tired of the whole idea of "giving" in expectation of a reward.
That is not "giving" but a calculated investment no different from a Shylock.

It a form of lack of faith when you give without expectation, As you give to worship you must have expectation of a harvest

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

there is nothing wrong in being motivated by the end result or harvest . Jesus was motivated by the end result. Thats what kept him going.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Cor. 9:10
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Joagbaje:

It a form of lack of faith when you give without expectation, As you give to worship you must have expectation of a harvest

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

there is nothing wrong in being motivated by the end result or harvest . Jesus was motivated by the end result. Thats what kept him going.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Cor. 9:10
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

I beg your pardon, where does it say above that you ought to give in expectation of a reward.

Giving and Receiving

"Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only." (Philippians 4:15)

As Paul went on his missionary journeys, he never asked for money for himself from the people to whom he preached. He later wrote to the Thessalonians, "because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God" (1 Thessalonians 2:9). He did stress the teaching of Christ that "the labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:18; Luke 10:7) and that "even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:14). But he himself said: "I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me" (1 Corinthians 9:15).

Thus he was especially moved when the impoverished Christians at Philippi, without being asked, "sent once and again unto my necessity" (Philippians 4:16), and they were the only ones who did! This act of generous concern came about, Paul recognised, because they "first gave their own selves to the Lord" (2 Corinthians 8:5). As a result, Paul could assure them: "My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:19). Not only their material need, but every need.

They had learned a wonderful truth that every Christian needs to learn. As Paul told the Ephesian elders: "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). Therefore, let each of us give in His name, "not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (2 Corinthians 9:7-. HMM

^^^ Mr. Adegbu:

Those Scriptures you quoted were not written with some Nigerian and American "Pastors" in mind!

Pastor AIO:

I beg your pardon, where does it say above that you ought to give in expectation of a reward.

Ha alhaji, You are still asking this,


Galatians 6:9
   And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

It is a sign of faith to have expectation for the end result. Faith is substance of things hoped for.When you make a giving ,you should be sure of your harvest.God has said it , I should lay hold on it. That is faith

Luke 6:38
   Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

If you pray you should have expectation of answer , that is faith.

Mark 11:24
   Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

I know you guys will say " i just pray to worship , i dont want to expect anything" iro nla ni o!

"pastor", Are you saying that the prospect of Eternal life is not worth "sowing" for but that we should be blessed here on Earth too?

Joagbaje:

Ha alhaji, You are still asking this,


Galatians 6:9
   And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

It is a sign of faith to have expectation for the end result. Faith is substance of things hoped for.When you make a giving ,you should be sure of your harvest.God has said it , I should lay hold on it. That is faith

Luke 6:38
   Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

If you pray you should have expectation of answer , that is faith.

Mark 11:24
   Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

I know you guys will say " i just pray to worship , i dont want to expect anything" iro nla ni o!

There is nothing here either that says that we ought to give with expectation of receiving back.  Let me break down the scriptures that you have quoted one by one. 

Joagbaje:

It a form of lack of faith when you give without expectation, As you give to worship you must have expectation of a harvest

Hebrews 11:6
    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This passage is about faith and not about giving, whether to the pastor or to anyone for that matter.  Maybe it is the reward part that is confusing you.  It means that if you diligently seek him then you'll find him, and finding him is the reward.

Joagbaje:

there is nothing wrong in being motivated by the end result or harvest . Jesus was motivated by the end result. Thats what kept him going.

Hebrews 12:2
    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Cor. 9:10

There is nothing here either about giving, to pastor or to anyone for that matter.  The end result for which Jesus endured the cross is the 'joy that was set in front of him'.  Nothing about giving anyone money or receiving any money back in return.

Joagbaje:

It a form of lack of faith when you give without expectation, As you give to worship you must have expectation of a harvest

[color=#990000] 1 Cor. 9:10
    Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The plowing that he is talking about here is the ministry that he did amongst the corinthians. Paul didn't give them any money in the hope that he would receive money from them.

ogajim:

^^^ Mr. Adegbu:

Those Scriptures you quoted were not written with some Nigerian and American "Pastors" in mind!

What are you trying to say? Do you mean that the naija man's head always goes with his money?

Pastor AIO, good evening,

Thanks for your post below. It both encouraged and enlightened. I pray you reap as you have sown this day.

The "monetizers" it seems will always be with us. There is seemingly no quit in them. As it suits them they spiritualise their position, imprecate, employ legalism, twist scripture, employ outright deceit - especially when it comes to the languages of antiquity - and at times bring weighty intellucts to bear.

Tragically reducing the reward of eternal life in Christ and intimacy with God to a physical, temporal, debt instrument

I repeat, there are only two reasons to preach - in any guise - mandatory giving to Christians as divine writ; because you are either 1. mischevious or 2. misguided.

And for the sake of those who fall under 2. above, I thank everyone for their perseverance, ask that the discussion be kept about issues and not people and remember that many are being strengthened in their walks. Spiritual deception is real!


Gods truth in Christ Jesus will out.

Pastor AIO:

Why shouldn't I expose my lack of understanding, if indeed I lack understanding? After all how else will I learn unless it is evident that I need to learn. Menh, don't gag me. Let me talk and if in talking it turns out that I lack knowledge and subsequently acquire the required knowledge then isn't that a good thing. Unlike you, I don't claim superior knowledge to anybody, but I know what I know.

But I know why you said what you said. You are trying to claim superiority to me. and having done so you hope to gag me from speaking my mind at all. Well I'm afraid it won't work. I am not impressed by you and your shenanigans and I will always state what I believe. And right now I believe that you are an hoax.


Actually, "Mr superior knowledge" what the bible says is He who [b]LIVES [/b]by the sword shall die by the sword. But that apart, you actually have a point and now we're getting to the crux of the giving and receiving matter.

What is sown is not the gifts (whether of money or otherwise) but something altogether more subtle. The spirit with which the gift is given. If I give money solely for the reason that I want to receive money in return than what I'll reap is that manipulative spirit with which I sowed in the first place.

However if I give out of compassion, no matter how much, then what I will reap is the compassion. I'll be repaid by compassion in my dealing with others. The attitude and the spirit in which an act is done is what goes forth and then returns to the actor in multifold.

If I give money in church so that God can smite my enemies, then that wicked intention will manifest against me in my life.

If I give money in church so that my business can profit better then I'll possibly find that my employees do not care for my business but rather are only there for what money they can make out of it. Their level of commitment will be low. Subsequently, my business will do badly.

If I am a thief and I tithe of my earnings because I believe that that way God will help secure my ill-gotten gains, I'll might find that those gains will sooner or later be appropriated by another thief in as callous a way as I acquired it.

Yes, but what is of the essence is not the material aspect of giving but the spirit of the giving. Very true that God hates a grudging giver. He also hates a hateful giver, and a covetous giver, and a greedy giver. He loves the Joyful giver, the loving giver, the truthful giver.

God bless
TV