International madness

a lot of churches and pastors believe this should be the norm - pray, then speak to d pastor and pastor speaks to lady on your behalf - what do you think?

of course you should inform the pastor,remember the pastor is the spiritual father and he/she will be in the best position to seek the face of GOD concerning the relationship.

HOLY. SHIIT. Wtf? Serioulsy??



Man - Good day, pastor. See, I spotted this one chick in the front row of the church and. . . oh yes, that's right, instead of praying and praising the Lord I was busy scouting for potential coitus with a female. Any piece of advice you could throw in there for a man in desperate need?

Pastor - . . .

Man - Is there a problem, pastor?

Pastor - You're doing it wrong.

i fancy one in the church i attended today . . . u bet i wont be telling the pastor before making a move.

TV01:

Hey you! Hows things? Hope alls well. I knew straight off Arté was not a new poster, but can't say I was anywhere near to figuring it was you. 'Sup with that? Hope all is well?.

  Lol, nuthin mischievious. This ID was unrighteously suspended by the "sophisticated" spambot for posting "spam" . . . perhaps my post was too "organized" and hence looked like spam? lol I dunno. After a week and no response from the mods I decided to open a new acct as some juicy topics such as this were too good to sleep on  

 and yeah I deliberately spoke like a "seasoned" NLder in the few posts I've made so that people might get some hint who it was. I did enjoy my 2 days as Arté . This ID just got liberated with an apology so I am back to normal.

Love the way you've let GODSON2009 talk his way into a corner and neatly parried side attacks at the same time. Kudos.

Lol, me i no fit fight oh, so na the only tool i sabi use I employ

See the way he mashed up apostleship, shepherding  and then tried to introduce "dictionary definitions". The reply was so disjointed, if I hadn't been quoted, I would have thought he was addressing someone else. Religious minions, turning up for gunfights with water pistols . Its no fun anymore.

God bless
TV

Lol   I'm glad someone else was noticing how he has been tripping all over himself. Hehe.

Godson,
   where is the scripture that says "the pastor is the spiritual father and head of the church"?  

Of course you should tell the pastor. you should also invite him to the matrimonial bedroom on the wedding night (that is if you have not done the deed before the wedding day fornicated). ;
I do not believe that people are so gullible. It is nobody's business who you go out with. If the pastor is unhappy with the fact that two members of his church are seeing each other, let him take a running jump, or perhaps a cold shower.
What else do they want to know - what you earn, how many times you fulfil the matrimonial obligations?
there has been a lot of unnecessary posts about the position of the pastor. People should remember that the pastor is just a man (in very rare cases, a woman) who claims to have received a gift. Of course no one can prove this, so all believers go along with it for fear of offending god.

Does the pastor inform me before he empties the offering boxes into his pockets?

Does the pastor inform me before he steals the tithes and banks it in his name?

The pastor can piss off. . . If i see a yummy lady i like, i bypass the pastor and go for it. .

If the pastor stands in my way, i will beat him down violently!!!

lmao! XDD Pure genius.

JeSoul:

Lol, nuthin mischievious. This ID was unrighteously suspended by the "sophisticated" spambot for posting "spam" . . . perhaps my post was too "organized" and hence looked like spam? lol I dunno. After a week and no response from the mods I decided to open a new acct as some juicy topics such as this were too good to sleep on 

Good to hear. And welcome back.

JeSoul:

and yeah I deliberately spoke like a "seasoned" NLder in the few posts I've made so that people might get some hint who it was. I did enjoy my 2 days as Arté . This ID just got liberated with an apology so I am back to normal.
Lol, me i no fit fight oh, so na the only tool i sabi use I employ
Lol  I'm glad someone else was noticing how he has been tripping all over himself. Hehe.

I percieved Arté to be a good 'un, but I've learnt to ally patience wth my discernment. The way you launched in without breaking stride suggested you were not new to NL. I certainly didn't twig. If anything, with hindsight, I would say you were slightly more commanding 

JeSoul:

Godson,
    where is the scripture that says "the pastor is the spiritual father and head of the church"? 

You will wait so tay for that one 0!. Hmmmm!


God bless
TV

mr crackles that is one cracking comment,i suggest beating the pastor wiv a baseall bat till he bleeds n bleeds n bleeds n bleeds even more
do i sound tooo violent

as if the pastor will inform u b4 he fkcus ur own wife

You guys wont stop amusing me

Why on earth will i tell a man like me about a girl i fancy in church?

I must be the most stupid man to do so.

Forget pastor, i will make my move myself.

There is nothing wrong with it, cos the pastor might know the sister more than you do, and that will prevent you coming back later that a lady you found in their church is not what you thought she was.
However, it is not a law that you must discuss it with the pastor.

Hi JeSoul Arte, thanks for the encouraging SMS reply. God bless you.

@Topic: You don't need to tell the pastor. If he is smart or discerning and believes he needs to ask you to discuss your plans, you also need to be discerning as well to evade or respect him. All the best.

Traugott:

Hi JeSoul Arte, thanks for the encouraging SMS reply. God bless you.

@Topic: You don't need to tell the pastor. If he is smart or discerning and believes he needs to ask you to discuss your plans, you also need to be discerning as well to evade or respect him. All the best.

True Dat

TV01:

Hey you! Hows things? Hope alls well. I knew straight off Arté was not a new poster, but can't say I was anywhere near to figuring it was you. 'Sup with that? Hope all is well?.

Love the way you've let GODSON2009 talk his way into a corner and neatly parried side attacks at the same time. Kudos.

See the way he mashed up apostleship, shepherding  and then tried to introduce "dictionary definitions". The reply was so disjointed, if I hadn't been quoted, I would have thought he was addressing someone else. Religious minions, turning up for gunfights with water pistols . Its no fun anymore.

God bless
TV

hello mr president of supporters club and cheerleader, due to my personal religious convictions,i wont engage myself in infantille bric bats with you cause its obvious you still have that primary school mentality of let me support my friend upstairs.
if simple english comprehension is a massive issue with you,then i ll suggest rather than blind reasoning and comments read comments and address them objectively, internet gangster i9m quaking my boots already lol

Arté:

hehe
Gbam left, right and center

Which is why I have repeatedly asked godson to show us his scripture where the pastor is the head of the church. Of course he can't cos no such verse exists. All these man-made doctrines enslaving people . . .

_{TV look behind the facade of the new id and see a very huge fan of yours. Hint beantown}

sire/ma
the reason why its a waste of mental energy to debate anything with yourself and people of your ilk is that just like the pebble that has been in the river or ocean for ages and yet its core is still dry,you also have stuck to your narrow vision ideals that you are close minded to any other views which is fair enough for you but please im appealing to you, not to mention my name or make any reference to me anymore if you dont have anything sensible to say either on the threadster's question or my comments.

for the records i asserted that the pastor is the head of his parish/church which you disagreed with,retorting that church isnt led by a pastor but by  collective leadership of elders. and i asked you for an example of a single church both modern and the orthodox where the leadership is not one individual but a collection of leaders but you side stepped that.

second you asked me for bible verses and i posted where the bible talked about the five fold ministry with specific mention of the pastor and where the flocks are enjoined to seek out their leader to pray for them,again you disagreed with me saying that they are meant to lead the church together fair enough you neither gave an example of any church where that is being practised either before or present.

i also mentioned the instance of abraham and his last wish that a trusted and GODLY servant should seek out a wife for his son isaac,again as usual tunnell vision.

in order to clarify where we both stand rather than arguing blindly,which im not in the habit of doing i asked you to state publicly what in your opinion the functions of a pastor were, you probably knew where i was going with that so completely ignored my question,
as per dictionary meaning which your clueless supporters club was on about,i am an academic hence i like to look at all issues including religious in an academic light before applying the religious slant to it.
but if the worldwide dictionary is not a credible academic source for you and yopur people then im sorry i cant help you

when you get to your church,go and smack your pastor over the head,or mandate him to allow you and other members of the church to take turns at preaching on the altar seeing as you r both equal

GODSON2009:

hello mr president of supporters club and cheerleader

Loyalty is a rare thing these days. Not to be confused with the slavish devotion those of your ilk typically demonstrate.

GODSON2009:

due to my personal religious convictions

Sorry to burst your bubble buddy, but you are 100% corn-fed religionist. Ain't nuthin' "personal" about your convictions.

GODSON2009:

if simple english comprehension is a massive issue with you,

You really shouldn't have gone there, but I'll let that one slide while I expose your unclothedness on bigger issues.

GODSON2009:

read comments and address them objectively, internet gangster i9m quaking my boots already lol

I'll take you up on that shall I? Ok lets go - I am yet to meet a Redeemer who could do more than shout "touch not" when the heat is on - Oya, Mr. Self proclaimed academic, since I'm the infant here, I'm sure you'll allow me to pose the first question?

1. Please detail what according to the scriptures - NT  - the remit of a "pastor" is. If your acada stretches that far, please also show from the scriptural narrative where a single pastor heads a congregation or body of believers. Being aware of my precarious grasp of her Majestys English, could we make that grammatically simple please  . If you can, I am transitioning to a 100% maize diet with immediate effect and will almost certainly commence tithing shortly afterwards !


God bless
TV

TV01:

Loyalty is a rare thing these days. Not to be confused with the slavish devotion those of your ilk typically demonstrate.

hmmm,good for you presido. well ,if aquiscesing to constituted authority is being slavish to you,then when next you r in church make sure u greet your pastor and church elders with a good natured back slap and then take turns at preaching on the altar dont forget to make it a point of sitting down at the very front

TV01:

Sorry to burst your bubble buddy, but you are 100% corn-fed religionist. Ain't nuthin' "personal" about your convictions.

i ll suggest you check the dictionary for personal and convictions the  u ll get what i meant, cant be bothered with explaining that as well pls as for being religionist, well thats your own "personal opinion"

TV01:

You really shouldn't have gone there, but I'll let that one slide while I expose your unclothedness on bigger issues.

im waiting for you to expose my ignorance on the issues i have raised and commented upon now that i v not only gone there but i am sitting therein

TV01:

I'll take you up on that shall I? Ok lets go - I am yet to meet a Redeemer who could do more than shout "touch not" when the heat is on - Oya, Mr. Self proclaimed academic, since I'm the infant here, I'm sure you'll allow me to pose the first question?

maybe we do cause its in the bible? by all means pose as many questions within the realm of the topic under discussions as you wish andi ll gladly oblige you within the limits of my reasoning

TV01:

1. Please detail what according to the scriptures - NT  - the remit of a "pastor" is. If your acada stretches that far, please also show from the scriptural narrative where a single pastor heads a congregation or body of believers. Being aware of my precarious grasp of her Majestys English, could we make that grammatically simple please  . If you can, I am transitioning to a 100% maize diet with immediate effect and will almost certainly commence tithing shortly afterwards !
God bless
TV

this is really hillarious of you, posing the same question i posed to your friend/mentor/boss he/she or both of you are the ones asserting so should prove that the prevalent tradition as it is done in all churches in your own wisdom is wrong,however unlike your friend i will address this because i am not scared of standing by my convictions.

i have not come across where the nt catalogues the specific job of a pastor,however i have come across the biblical section where the pastor is reffered amongst four others as needed for the nuturing and growth of the church,therefore the pastor evidently has a role to play or they would not have been included in the five fold,it would have been four fold, like i retorted to your friend/boss or mentor's comment i looked for and posted the dictionary meaning of the word"pastor"
in adittion,the overwhelming evidence supports my assertion as can be seen in the constitution of every single church or christian religious group all over the world where pastor are always the head of the parish/church,prophets and evangelists are itinerant,teachers also can be itinerant or resident with pastors always picking up the pieces nurturing e.t.c
i asked your boss/mentor friend a question which he has neglected to answer in view of your question i hope you will endeavour to answer on his behalf, what in your own opinion is the role of a pastor?bearing in mind the word "pastor" was meantioned in the bible and i hope i am correct in assuming that we both agree they are not to sweep or clean the church?
as for tithing,again that is up to you as tithing is optional.

GODSON2009:

i have not come across where the nt catalogues the specific job of a pastor

But at the very least, your "personal conviction" is that "A/The Pastor"is the head of the local church/congregation/body of believers. No? Can you find anything scriptural to back that up?

GODSON2009:

however i have come across the biblical section where the pastor is reffered amongst four others as needed for the nuturing and growth of the church,therefore the pastor evidently has a role to play or they would not have been included in the five fold

I won't quibble "the pastor/al" certainly has a role to play. Please explain why your convictions suggest that role includes headship in the absence of any biblcal outline to that effect. It is your conviction right?

GODSON2009:

it would have been four fold, like i retorted to your friend/boss or mentor's comment because i v not found the specific place in the bible i looked for and posted the dictionary meaning of the word"pastor"

Ephesians 4:11 was difficult for you to find? Even a pre-schooler like me can reel that off. I may be a kindegartner, but I can see how by reading the NT thoroughly and approaching the scriptural narrative without bias exactly what a pastors role is, what its aims are and what its limits should be.

^{and if na paddy, oga or guru nko. Wish one concain you sef ?}

GODSON2009:

in adittion,the overwhelming evidence supports my assertion as can be seen in the constitution of every single church or christian religious group all over the world where pastor are always the head of the parish/church, ill conbtinue with this later as i need to work

And if we see that the construction of every single church or christian religious group is at variance with the scriptures (let us not even discuss recause to the Holy Spirit yet), who does one follow?  What CRG' - thanks for the acronym by the way, good to see your acada is not completely wasted - do or do not do is not evidence in support of scripture. Before the advent of the Redeemed, there were a billion Catholics. Surely  - according to your lofty scholarship - evidence enough that the few million redeemers are sorely misguided?

Come? what was your result in pastor worship 101 ?

Enjoy work sir - see as respec full ground 0! - Hopefully we can continue this soon. I'll endeavour to progress things by submitting a few of my convictions to the scrutiny of your academic rigour.

God bless
TV

TV01:

But at the very least, your "personal conviction" is that "A/The Pastor"is the head of the local church/congregation/body of believers. No? Can you find anything scriptural to back that up?

just like your friend,you skillfully side step issues you dont have answers to and then pick and chose that which will score you the most cheap points, irrespective of whatever you say at this point the fact that "a pastor"is reffered to in the nt has proven that they have a specific role to play,in the absence of a bible verse showing that role a dictionary is a proper source to use in defining the role of a pastor seeing as it has a basis in the bible.

TV01:

I won't quibble "the pastor/al" certainly has a role to play. Please explain why your convictions suggest that role includes headship in the absence of any biblcal outline to that effect. It is your conviction right?

you cant quibble it with me cause i have backed up my assertion with biblical evidence namely the bible verse where the pastor was mentioned as part of the leadership,as for explaining i dont need to as the world wide congregation of christians has done that for me why dont you show me a church where they have five leaders as co leaders leading thew church with equal powers?

TV01:

Ephesians 4:11 was difficult for you to find? Even a pre-schooler like me can reel that off. I may be a kindegartner, but I can see how by reading the NT thoroughly and approaching the scriptural narrative without bias exactly what a pastors role is, what its aims are and what its limits should be.

you see why i have accused you of not being objective and jumping in?? even your friend/boss or leader will tell you that i have quoted the same ephesians 4;11 in my earlier comments,you can simply backtrack and you will see the comment but you had to show off that you knew ephesians 4 ;11 your leader must be soo proud of you for embarassing yopurself in your haste to show me up, in other words do i take it that you and your mentor dont have any role for the pastor in the church??

TV01:


^{and if na paddy, oga or guru nko. Wish one concain you sef ?}

dont mind me o,im just trying to clarify seeing as its a nigerian sickness if you dont get their proper titles right,they get angry

TV01:

And if we see that the construction of every single church or christian religious group is at variance with the scriptures (let us not even discuss recause to the Holy Spirit yet), who does one follow? What CRG' - thanks for the acronym by the way, good to see your acada is not completely wasted - do or do not do is not evidence in support of scripture. Before the advent of the Redeemed, there were a billion Catholics. Surely - according to your lofty scholarship - evidence enough that the few million redeemers are sorely misguided?

in cutting through your preamble,are you now saying that all churches as presently constituted are at variance with the scriptures?
also your comments and its understanding are nebulous,so i ll really appreciate some clarifications,what has catholic congregation got to do with redeemed??

TV01:

Come? what was your result in pastor worship 101 ?

sire,im appaled at your crass naivety i dont worship a pastor or any human being,but i give respect to every constituted authority

TV01:

Enjoy work sir - see as respec full ground 0! - Hopefully we can continue this soon. I'll endeavour to progress things by submitting a few of my convictions to the scrutiny of your academic rigour.

God bless
TV

i am eargerly awaiting your religious convictions because so far all you have done is pick up from where your friend left off,side stepping direct questions while answering my questions with more questions in a typical naija manner,thanking you in advance and have a nice day as well shalom

@Topic: My opinion is that you don't need to. If you are a Christian you should talk to God instead.

vivaladiva:

mr crackles that is one cracking comment,i suggest beating the pastor wiv a baseall bat till he bleeds n bleeds n bleeds n bleeds even more
do i sound tooo violent

Nah that aint too violent. . . .It has a violence rating of 5/10

GODSON2009 said;
just like your friend,you skillfully side step issues you dont have answers to and then pick and chose that which will score you the most cheap points, irrespective of whatever you say at this point the fact that "a pastor"is reffered to in the nt has proven that they have a specific role to play

TV01’ response;
Agree. There is a function which can be referred to as pastor and they do have a role to play (notice how I ignore your sly invective and stick firmly to the question at hand )

GODSON2009 said;
in the absence of a bible verse showing that role a dictionary is a proper source to use in defining the role of a pastor seeing as it has a basis in the bible.

TV01’ response;
Disagree. Why? As follows;

1. Primarily because there is no absence of “bible verses” detailing what a pastor is, what a pastor does, specifics , detail and limits. Your not seeing or accepting that,  in no way changes it.
2. If the bible is silent on what a pastor does, how does your personal conviction  or preferred practice in any way become binding on other believers. Or why is anyone compelled to follow the norm or accepted practise.
3. A dictionary does not “define”. What a dictionary does is “describes”. Further, it describes based on current usage –although it may refer to meanings from antiquity – not necessarily on original meaning. The scripture is complete, do you assert otherwise?

GODSON2009 said;
you cant quibble it with me cause i have backed up my assertion with biblical evidence namely the bible verse where the pastor was mentioned as part of the leadership

TV01’ response;
Disagree. Why? As follows;

1. I glad you used the word “assertion”, unfortunately you have in no way “backed it up with evidence”. Indeed, you contradict yourself, as you also asserted that the bible is absent of verses outlining the role of a pastor.
2. The pastor was mentioned of one of 5 functional/enabling roles. So as not to digress, I will not get all expansive regards “leadership”, but the Bible also outlines specifics and limits to these function. A dictionary is not required.

GODSON2009 said;
as for explaining i dont need to as the world wide congregation of christians has done that for me why dont you show me a church where they have five leaders as co leaders leading thew church with equal powers?

TV01’ response;
Again, the completeness of scripture is not validated by CRG practice, rather CRG practice should be scrutinised in light of scripture. I don’t need to show you a church as outlined, as that is your warped interpretation of my view. All I need to do is show the blueprint outlined in the scriptural narrative. And this I will endeavour to do, grace and time permitting (note how I slipped in a little piety for effect at the end there !)

GODSON2009 said;
you see why i have accused you of not being objective and jumping in?? even your friend/boss or leader will tell you that i have quoted the same ephesians 4;11 in my earlier comments,you can simply backtrack and you will see the comment but you had to show off that you knew ephesians 4 ;11   your leader must be soo proud of you for embarassing yopurself in your haste to show me up, in other words do i take it that you and your mentor dont have any role for the pastor in the church??

TV01’ response;
Abeg, pele 0, e ma binu sir! Sowwy!

GODSON2009 said;
dont mind me o,im just trying to clarify seeing as its a nigerian sickness if you dont get their proper titles right,they get angry

TV01’ response;
Indded your obsession with “constituted authority” – which is really thinly veiled veneration of persons – is much more likely to engender that particular sickness – Nigeria or elsewhere – I have never resorted to entitling myself as leader,  GO, Cardinal, Spiritual Father, Mummy in Israel, Pastor to Pastors or my personal fave - Prophetess to the nations etc, etc, which all obtain in the CRG’s you revere. Having said that, henceforth, kindly address me as Elder TV!

GODSON2009 said;
in cutting through your preamble,are you now saying that all churches as presently constituted are at variance with  the scriptures? also your comments and its understanding are nebulous,so i ll really appreciate some clarifications,what has catholic congregation got to do with redeemed??

TV01’ response;
Empiricaly? No I am not. What I am saying is view how one and all are constituted in light of scripture. Clarification enough?

GODSON2009 said;
sire,im appaled at your crass naivety i dont worship a pastor or any human being,but i give respect to every constituted authority

TV01’ response;
Will you fall off that “constituted authority” horse already? I mean scap that! It makes you sound like a “follow follow”

GODSON2009 said;
i am eargerly awaiting your religious convictions because so far all you have done is pick up from where your friend left off,side stepping direct questions while answering my questions with more questions in a typical naija manner,thanking you in advance and have a nice day as well  shalom

TV01’ response;
The discourse will ultimately reveal who is “side-stepping”. I have asked you just the one question so far, which you failed to answer or justify scripturally. I am anything but “typical Naija”, but won’t belabour the point if you choose to label me as such. I will stick to the points in question. Oya, bo si ile ka ja !

God bless
TV

TV you sef you try no be small to read and respond to that epistle which was nothing more than a caveman whipping up a smoke screen 

  Godson, I will not respond to any of the diversionary topics you threw out there.  I'm a very simple person my brotha and I have consistently asked you only 1 question, "where is the scripture that says the pastor is the spiritual father and head of the church?"  

You said you would post the verses, please do so or retract your original statement. Then we can go ahead and discuss roles. Once you post the verse (or retract your assertion), I will happily indulge in all the other questions you put forth. Happily 

---

TV01:

Good to hear. And welcome back.

I percieved Arté to be a good 'un, but I've learnt to ally patience wth my discernment. The way you launched in without breaking stride suggested you were not new to NL. I certainly didn't twig. If anything, with hindsight, I would say you were slightly more commanding 

Ai! no kidding?  I'm going to put on Arte more often now 

Traugott:

Hi JeSoul Arte, thanks for the encouraging SMS reply. God bless you.

No problem my friend, no problem  . I still owe you a proper holla . . .

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Agree. There is a function which can be referred to as pastor and they do have a role to play (notice how I ignore your sly invective and stick firmly to the question at hand )

so in asking my question for the upteenth time,what in your opinion are these roles?

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Disagree. Why? As follows;

1. Primarily because there is no absence of “bible verses” detailing what a pastor is, what a pastor does, specifics , detail and limits. Your not seeing or accepting that, in no way changes it.
2. If the bible is silent on what a pastor does, how does your personal conviction or preferred practice in any way become binding on other believers. Or why is anyone compelled to follow the norm or accepted practise.
3. A dictionary does not “define”. What a dictionary does is “describes”. Further, it describes based on current usage –although it may refer to meanings from antiquity – not necessarily on original meaning. The scripture is complete, do you assert otherwise?

1.well then,i would appreciate it if you can point to a bible verse where the pastor's job is clearly or even unclearly catalogued,then it would not be a matter of choice but incumbent upon me to agree with you then if u did.
2.the reason is because there was an instance in the bible where an older,wiser and GODly individual played such role in choosing a wife for an adult(abraham giving that role to his trusted servant)
another reason is that the norm in the collective christian church all over the world before we were born is that the pastor sheperds the church,unless you have irrefutable proof to tell the whole body of christiandom that they are wrong. while no one is compelled to follow the norm or make it  binding on all believers(i have not seen where a pastor has arrested or killed or beaten a believer for not seeking his/her advice) however for spiritual and practical purposes it has served to help christian brothers and sisters in knowing GOD's will concerning their union
3.the fact that "it describes BASED ON THE CURRENT USAGE" is enough of a proof in the abscence of any contradictory proof on your part no?
i will foreever keep my peace if you can rebute with a single bible verse which proves that dictionary meaning wrong

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Disagree. Why? As follows;

1. I glad you used the word “assertion”, unfortunately you have in no way “backed it up with evidence”. Indeed, you contradict yourself, as you also asserted that the bible is absent of verses outlining the role of a pastor.
2. The pastor was mentioned of one of 5 functional/enabling roles. So as not to digress, I will not get all expansive regards “leadership”, but the Bible also outlines specifics and limits to these function. A dictionary is not required.

1.permit me to say rather than contradicting myself,you seem to be confused. why? because i have backed it up with the same ephesians 4;11 where it clearly states that the pastor in concert with 4 others are vested with the job of nurturing ,directing the body of believers,i said the bible is absent of a specific outline of the job ascribed to a pastor i.e in your word "described"which the dicco has helpfully done in the absence of any other source
2.i see, so where in that bible did apostle paul limit the role of the pastor? also i seemed to be a bit confused with your assertion of "specifics" and "limits"

TV01:

GODSON2009 said;
as for explaining i dont need to as the world wide congregation of christians has done that for me why dont you show me a church where they have five leaders as co leaders leading thew church with equal powers?

TV01’ response;
Again, the completeness of scripture is not validated by CRG practice, rather CRG practice should be scrutinised in light of scripture. I don’t need to show you a church as outlined, as that is your warped interpretation of my view. All I need to do is show the blueprint outlined in the scriptural narrative. And this I will endeavour to do, grace and time permitting (note how I slippe din a little piety for effect at the end there!)

well then,i will await your prompt responce in proving these weighty assertions of the blueprint actually do exist in the bible.in fact i hope you do so today and leave every other explanation seeing as this is the core kernel of our debate

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Abeg, pele 0, e ma binu sir! Sowwy!

no offence taken sire,just highlighting the reasons why one should be objective in a public debate, it helps clarity and focus

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Indded your obsession with “constituted authority” – which is really thinly veiled veneration of persons – is much more likely to engender that particular sickness – Nigeria or elsewhere – I have never resorted to entitling myself as leader, GO, Cardinal, Spiritual Father, Mummy in Israel, Pastor to Pastors or my personal fave - Prophetess to the nations etc, etc, which all obtain in the CRG’s you revere. Having said that, henceforth, kindly address me as Elder TV!

i am suprised that you have read the same ephesians you were flaunting yet you did not understand the essence of it,other wise you would not be calling or equating the act of giving respect to an office veneration, i guess you would have probably had obama prostrate for you if u were older seeing as he is your junior, if you attended university in the western world i bet you ll never respect a younger lecturer?
if you read your bible properly,you will see where apostle paul called timothy and others his spiritual son,g.o is an administrative title which will move on to the next recipient when he leaves,prophet is in the bibkle same as pastor and elders is in the bible, if you u were in the position of an elder in my church then definitely i will address you as such like the bible made provision for it

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Empiricaly? No I am not. What I am saying is view how one and all are constituted in light of scripture. Clarification enough?

im still struggling to get this,hopefully you will clarify your points?

TV01:

TV01’ response;
Will you fall off that “constituted authority” horse already? I mean scap that! It makes you sound like a “follow follow”

well then,i guess we are all in the same boat right?do you "follow follow" jesus?
do you "follow follow" by obeying and respecting your boss in the office? the police,army e.t.c

TV01:

GODSON2009 said;
i am eargerly awaiting your religious convictions because so far all you have done is pick up from where your friend left off,side stepping direct questions while answering my questions with more questions in a typical naija manner,thanking you in advance and have a nice day as well shalom

TV01’ response;
The discourse will ultimately reveal who is “side-stepping”. I have asked you just the one question so far, which you failed to answer or justify scripturally. I am anything but “typical Naija”, but won’t belabour the point if you choose to label me as such. I will stick to the points in question. Oya, bo si ile ka ja !

God bless
TV

you have asked me to show u a verse in the bible where the pastor's job /description s made and i said there is none,while proving my point through other means you on the other hand have neglected to describe the function of a pastor,hope for a clearer clarification and that u ll answer my questions
shalom

JeSoul:

TV you sef you try no be small to read and respond to that epistle which was nothing more than a caveman whipping up a smoke screen

Godson, I will not respond to any of the diversionary topics you threw out there. I'm a very simple person my brotha and I have consistently asked you only 1 question, "where is the scripture that says the pastor is the spiritual father and head of the church?"

You said you would post the verses, please do so or retract your original statement. Then we can go ahead and discuss roles. Once you post the verse (or retract your assertion), I will happily indulge in all the other questions you put forth. Happily

---

Ai! no kidding? I'm going to put on Arte more often now

No problem my friend, no problem . I still owe you a proper holla . . .

if you dont have anything sensible to say but playing follow the leader with snide comments then simply ignore my comments and slide on,if you read my earlier comment to one of your friends or leader whatever,you will see where i made reference to objectivity bringing clarification and focus,
i will not force you to go back and read my comments where i have addressed the issue you raised but please dont disturb or irritate my ears henceforth i have not written any of my comments in german or sanscrit or aramaic!

GODSON2009:

if you dont have anything sensible to say but playing follow the leader with snide comments then simply ignore my comments and slide on,if you read my earlier comment to one of your friends or leader whatever,you will see where i made reference to objectivity bringing clarification and focus,
i will not force you to go back and read my comments where i have addressed the issue you raised but please dont disturb or irritate my ears henceforth i have not written any of my comments in german or sanscrit or aramaic!

Godson my friend, no be fight at all. I defer to superior knowledge now and since I'm not sensible and cannot follow, please be so kind as to post again the exact scripture verse that says the pastor is the spiritual father and head?

If you decline to oblige I'll take that as a concession and retraction of your original claim the pastor is the head/spiritual father of the church. No need to beat dead horses over and over again. Cheers!

JeSoul:

Godson my friend, no be fight at all. I defer to superior knowledge now and since I'm not sensible and cannot follow, please be so kind as to post again the exact scripture verse that says the pastor is the spiritual father and head?

i see,then since you have been able to read this comment i just posted, then simply place your palm on the little mouse thingy, right click on the arrow on the extreme right and you will be a bhle to see everything written on this page where you will discover GODSON09 's comment then read on from there, hope i v been helpful enough?
shalom

Missed the posts immediately after my last one as I was preparing this offline. I'll hopefully outline how I see the role of pastor at some stage, but to move things along and give some insight as to my postion and convictions, I put together the following;

In order to further facilitate progress and ultimately conclusion of this discussion, permit me if you will, to state some of my own convictions. Of course these are subject to question and scrutiny in the light of scripture.

1. A congregation is to be shepherded by a plurality of suitably qualified elders. With non having the pre-eminence or being in someway elevated amongst the others.
2. The five-fold functions detailed in Ephesians 4:11 for the most part should have a finite/limited use in the life of an individual believer. They represent one aspect – mostly physical, not spiritual aspect - of Christian need and development
3. Church – as fellowship – is a part of the life of a Christian, but it is but one of many spheres of life, not the most important and the others are in no way subject to it.
4. Your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should of course colour and drive all your actions.
5. Aggregating 3. and 4. above, please note “church” as fellowship is not the full articulation of the Christian life or the sum total of it. In extreme’s may not actually be a part of that life and in any event, can take forms other than that generally espoused by CRG’ today.
6. The word rendered pastor in the bible is synonymous with elder, bishop, episcopas, presbyter, shepherd etc

Of blueprints & patterns;

In the NT narrative, God gave a blueprint for Christian fellowship. The apostles – most notably Paul – were charged with rolling out and fully disseminating this blueprint for church. This work was foundational. Not to be and not required to be endlessly repeated. Once rolled out, the church would be self-propagating. Akin in some ways to the creational seeding and the subsequent “after its kind” propagation.

The apostolic in terms of what Paul et al were doing, in terms of rolling out the pattern, is no longer required. That job is done. In reading the scriptural narrative, we must align, function, role, and above all context.

So when Paul wrote to Timothy at Ephesus? and exhorted him to “raise suitably qualified elders”, that was so the church there could be fully functional and stand alone. He was writing as an apostle (master builder), to Timothy (helping build). He was not writing to Timothy as a sole authority regional pastor developing a network of overseen churches.

Wherever Paul rolled out the blueprint of church it was the same. Raise up suitably qualified elders and move on. In writing to these same churches, he always addressed the elders/shepherds/bishops in plurality. The blueprint did not give leave to a SAP.

I’d love to go on and explore this further. The why, what, when and the how. Also happy to expatiate on and  substantiate from scripture my own convictions

GODSON2009, you must be amazed at how fast I’m growing  !

God bless
TV

GODSON2009:

i see,then since you have been able to read this comment i just posted, then simply place your palm on the little mouse thingy, right click on the arrow on the extreme right and you will be a bhle to see everything written on this page where you will discover GODSON09 's comment then read on from there, hope i v been helpful enough?
shalom

No you haven't been helpful at all at all.

 Just post the verse again here, it should take more than a line or two, should it? just be a sweetheart and post it in your next response . . . unless of course the verse doesn't exist in which case you would be in a tight fix    

 FYI, I'm also feeling very generous today, so I'm extending you one free "get-out-of-a-tight-fix-card"  .

ok, i have enquired about this in the past and these are some of the reasons i was given for this

1) in the case that the lady in question already has other people in church seeking her hand, the pastor would be in the know and would be better able to advise u. and her.
2) i guess it's just for guidance really, not any biblical basis.i have heard of a case where a 'brother' approached an already married 'sister' claiming he'd 'heard' from God. he didnt know she was married.

When you inform your pastor, who should know his members to an extent, he can advise you.

However, i note this usually works for mostly workers and co in church.

JeSoul:

TV you sef you try no be small to read and respond to that epistle which was nothing more than a caveman whipping up a smoke screen  

Ai! no kidding?   I'm going to put on Arte more often now  

I sense that GODSON - despite our myriad differences - is genunely open to discussion here. I hope to engage in the same vein and hopefully we shall all be the better for it.

Hope you are well.

God bless
TV

This TV guy is just too much self . . .

TV01:
1. A congregation is to be shepherded by a plurality of suitably qualified elders. With non having the pre-eminence or being in someway elevated amongst the others.

 I think this is the most important point anyone could make on this thread.

2. The five-fold functions detailed in Ephesians 4:11 for the most part should have a[u] finite/limited[/u] use in the life of an individual believer. They represent one aspect – mostly physical, not spiritual aspect - of Christian need and development

5. Aggregating 3. and 4. above, please note “church” as fellowship is not the full articulation of the Christian life or the sum total of it. In extreme’s may not actually be a part of that life and in any event, can take forms other than that generally espoused by CRG’ today.

6. The[b] word rendered pastor in the bible is synonymous with elder, bishop, episcopas, presbyter, shepherd[/b] etc

This is the point Viaro tried to pass across when he pointed out the flaw in my generalization of the word "pastor" only appearing once. Very true the word pastor can be used interchangeably with the other positions.

Of blueprints & patterns;

In the NT narrative, God gave a blueprint for Christian fellowship. The apostles – most notably Paul – were charged with rolling out and fully disseminating this blueprint for church. This work was foundational. Not to be and not required to be endlessly repeated. Once rolled out, the church would be self-propagating. Akin in some ways to the creational seeding and the subsequent “after its kind” propagation.

The apostolic in terms of what Paul et al were doing, in terms of rolling out the pattern, is no longer required. That job is done. In reading the scriptural narrative, we must align, function, role, and above all context.

So when Paul wrote to Timothy at Ephesus? and exhorted him to “raise suitably qualified elders”, that was so the church there could be fully functional and stand alone. He was writing as an apostle (master builder), to Timothy (helping build). He was not writing to Timothy as a sole authority regional pastor developing a network of overseen churches.

Wherever Paul rolled out the blueprint of church it was the same. Raise up suitably qualified elders and move on. In writing to these same churches, he always addressed the elders/shepherds/bishops in plurality. The blueprint did not give leave to a SAP.

I’d love to go on and explore this further. The why, what, when and the how. Also happy to expatiate on and  substantiate from scripture my own convictions

 Going down this path is good, very good. I feel this warrants a seperate/new thread? There is so much confusion and misinformation as to the role and duties and authority of a pastor in regards to the congregation. This would be helpful to many.

GODSON2009, you must be amazed at how fast I’m growing  !

God bless
TV

Hehe, feeding on spiritual on steroids?