Tachi,

tachi:

ok, i have enquired about this in the past and these are some of the reasons i was given for this

1) in the case that the lady in question already has other people in church seeking her hand, the pastor would be in the know and would be better able to advise u. and her.

Can't the lady speak for herself? Why should the pastor "be in the know" about the intimate details of the personal lives of his congregation?

2) i guess it's just for guidance really, not any biblical basis.i have heard of a case where a 'brother' approached an already married 'sister' claiming he'd 'heard' from God. he didnt know she was married.

Still, this isn't sufficient basis enough to assign the pastor to be the middle man in relationship making. Married women get approached by men all the time - both inside and outside the church, they simply turn them down and sometimes inform their husbands if they're getting bothered.

Arté:

You should inform the pastor definitely.
Also inform the detectives at the local police department, the district attorney at the court house, the butcher at the local grocery store and if you have time the mechanic that regularly services your car.

---

this is my fav post on this thread jo. . .

well, what i have deduced for myself is that its all towards accountability. anyways, id simply say u should do as the spirit leads. as simple as that. if you have a disquiet about it, then u should heed it. and vice versa.

Now, as i said earlier, these are not based on any biblical standards(at least. none that i know of).

tachi:

well, what i have deduced for myself is that its all towards accountability. anyways, id simply say u should do as the spirit leads. as simple as that. if you have a disquiet about it, then u should heed it. and vice versa.

Now, as i said earlier, these are not based on any biblical standards(at least. none that i know of).

  Thanks for pointing that out my sister. This is the problem I think, that when directives are not based on the bible, people go about making it up as they go along, leading to confusion and a lot of unbiblical practices going on.

  I am certainly for accountability within the body . . . but when it comes to intimate issues of the heart that don't fall under the pastors jurisdiction so to speak, I really do not see the need or justification for a man to subject himself to the "pastor" to "seek God's face" and the "lady's approval" "on his behalf.

  Like you said, let the spirit lead, I agree 100%. A man should be seeking only God's face concerning any issue, not imploring the "man of God" to act on his behalf. I know if any pastor, or anyone for the matter approached me on someone else's behalf, I would think the man a misguided, indoctrinated wimp of monumental proportions.

tachi:

well, what i have deduced for myself is that its all towards accountability. anyways, id simply say u should do as the spirit leads. as simple as that. if you have a disquiet about it, then u should heed it. and vice versa.

Now, as i said earlier, these are not based on any biblical standards(at least. none that i know of).

why should you be accountable to any pastor on the issue of a lady you want to approach

Spot on!

i think if y'all are serious and want to get married then you should talk to your pastor, but asking before talking to the girl? serious long thing!

@kunleOshob

Not accountable to the pastor per se.

Accountable for 'issues '(am sure u get my drift) that may be a fall-out of dating/courting.

oboy some pips cn type on this nairaland oooo, so mch that dem fit get job as secretary, sometimes i want to leave a comment n den i think of all the typing i just shrug my shoulder n click on the return botton

TV01:

Missed the posts immediately after my last one as I was preparing this offline. I'll hopefully outline how I see the role of pastor at some stage, but to move things along and give some insight as to my postion and convictions, I put together the following;

In order to further facilitate progress and ultimately conclusion of this discussion, permit me if you will, to state some of my own convictions. Of course these are subject to question and scrutiny in the light of scripture.

1. A congregation is to be shepherded by a plurality of suitably qualified elders. With non having the pre-eminence or being in someway elevated amongst the others.

first of all,i hope you will permit me if i say that from all i have read of your comments,this is simply your own personal views of what the functions of the pastor should be in the body of believers.
while this is clearly stated and understood in the context of ephesians 4;11,in fact a secondary school bible studies student knows that none of them have pre-eminence over each other. i dont re collect having said a pastor is more than a prophet or evangelist, all i said was that the traditional orthodox churches and new generation pentecostal churches as presently constituted have had "pastors" as sheperds of the congregation,now we can look at all these churches and begin to find where a collection of the five have collectively made every decision including preaching altogether every sunday the fact that a pastor leads and sheperds does not automatically mean he is "the boss" in the context you are looking at it,but it certainly gives him/her the mandate to have a say when a brother wants to marry a sister in a church he/she is a sheperd of. .in addittion i am struggling to see the relevance of this to the threadster's comment but oh well,

TV01:

2. The five-fold functions detailed in Ephesians 4:11 for the most part should have a finite/limited use in the life of an individual believer. They represent one aspect – mostly physical, not spiritual aspect - of Christian need and development

i disagree with that unless you can show me assertive proof by back up or supporting bible verses to that effect that it has a time frame,also you should have realised that i dislike open ended statements where does "for the most part" start and end sire?
secondly i dont think you have read that bible verse well or else you wont say they deal with only the physical,last i read prophecies is more spiritual,same goes for teaching the word of GOD evangelising and what the five fold deals with,christian needs and development is more geared towards the spiritual which will drive the physical go and read watchman nee's book"breaking of the outer man,release of the inner man"

TV01:

3. Church – as fellowship – is a part of the life of a Christian, but it is but one of many spheres of life, not the most important and the others are in no way subject to it.

while the church is a part of the life of a christian,choosing a partner from both the female and male perspective is also a very important crossroad in one's life as choosing the wrong partner can be disasterous as several biblical instances have shown us, samson and delilah is one,including several GODLY people who were led astray to their destruction due to a union with unGODLY women,there were ocassions when GOD forbade the israelites from marrying from specific tribes e.g the moabites showing the importance of GODly counsel in these matters

TV01:

4. Your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should of course colour and drive all your actions.

we are agreed on this point

TV01:

5. Aggregating 3. and 4. above, please note “church” as fellowship is not the full articulation of the Christian life or the sum total of it. In extreme’s may not actually be a part of that life and in any event, can take forms other than that generally espoused by CRG’ today.

well i am yet to see what particular part of a christian life the church is not relevant,which i hope u will educate me on,but we are talking about marriage and without question i stand by my surmissionthat the church and also the pastor either as a "co-leader" or not is very relevant

TV01:

6. The word rendered pastor in the bible is synonymous with elder, bishop, episcopas, presbyter, shepherd etc

good so he/she is competent in the role of a sheperd which i agree with and has been my point however going back to your 1st point(no 1)isnt that a mild contradiction? or maybe you ment to say co-sheperd or co-elder lool

TV01:

Of blueprints & patterns;

In the NT narrative, God gave a blueprint for Christian fellowship

yes i agree

TV01:

. The apostles – most notably Paul – were charged with rolling out and fully disseminating this blueprint for church. This work was foundational.

i also agree with this

TV01:

Not to be and not required to be endlessly repeated. Once rolled out, the church would be self-propagating. Akin in some ways to the creational seeding and the subsequent “after its kind” propagation.

i totally and unequivocaly disagree,the bible out of many other things is also a moral and religious compass,if you feel like you know everything there is to know as a christian and also are imminently capable of handling every single thing and situation that comes your way, then that is your personal prerogative but speaking for the majority of christians, i believe the church leadership,specifically the five fold have been relevant till today because clearly christian growth is for a lifetime pastor adeboye when asked about his level as a christian said he is still learning and taking each day as it comes,we have heard him admit to mistakes. same goes for several frontline men and women of GOD IRRESPECTIVE OF YOUR DENOMINATIONAL PERSUATIONS even romans 12;6 recognises that we do not have the same measure of faith hence enjoins us to prophecy,only in proportion to our individual level of faith

TV01:

The apostolic in terms of what Paul et al were doing, in terms of rolling out the pattern, is no longer required. That job is done. In reading the scriptural narrative, we must align, function, role, and above all context.

again i totally disagree with you,and i will take this as what it is,your own personal and private stance which has absolutely no bearing on the bible i read

TV01:

So when Paul wrote to Timothy at Ephesus? and exhorted him to “raise suitably qualified elders”, that was so the church there could be fully functional and stand alone. He was writing as an apostle (master builder), to Timothy (helping build). He was not writing to Timothy as a sole authority regional pastor developing a network of overseen churches.

im sorry but again you have contradicted yourself here,apostel paul,was a leader,same as peter e.t.c and they all went out preaching the gospel and convering unbelievers.what do you call what apostle paul was doing all through acts onwards if not over seeing ? have you read all his letters to the different churches and then compare it to what an overseer does these days??

TV01:

Wherever Paul rolled out the blueprint of church it was the same. Raise up suitably qualified elders and move on. In writing to these same churches, he always addressed the elders/shepherds/bishops in plurality. The blueprint did not give leave to a SAP.

no one is arguing this fact with you,which you seem to be re gurgigating,but paul did not move on,he adressed timothy as a singular leader and timothy wasnt the only one moreover he nurtured and wrote letters of encouragement to all the churches so i dont know where you got your own interpretation from

TV01:

I’d love to go on and explore this further. The why, what, when and the how. Also happy to expatiate on and substantiate from scripture my own convictions
GODSON2009, you must be amazed at how fast I’m growing !

God bless
TV

not really,i am not particularly bothered as long as there is not insults exchanged between us,and you can make the effort to be truelly objective after all this is supposed to be a discussion on christian ethics not politics and i presume you are born again or at least a practising christian hence insults and snide comments should be out of it

JeSoul:

No you haven't been helpful at all at all.

Just post the verse again here, it should take more than a line or two, should it? just be a sweetheart and post it in your next response . . . unless of course the verse doesn't exist in which case you would be in a tight fix

FYI, I'm also feeling very generous today, so I'm extending you one free "get-out-of-a-tight-fix-card" .

from what i have seen of your handle,im guessing you are female and presumably a christian so i will respectfully advice you to ignore me if you dont have anything sensible to say as i have a very massive aversion to irritating comments of these sort. if you dont know what ephesians 4;11 says by now and have not been objectively following the comments from all sides prior to now or are already of a subjective opinion which i suspect you are from your comment then im sorry i cant help you and pls dont bother me, im not sure but im hoping you are not expecting me to start quaking with fright because of your "get-out-of-a-tight-fix-card"

TV01:

I sense that GODSON - despite our myriad differences - is genunely open to discussion here. I hope to engage in the same vein and [b]hopefully we shall all be the better for it.[/b]Hope you are well.

God bless
TV

hope so too sire
@post
the first pertinent point i am hinging a large part of my stance towards is the fact that the pastor has never mandated anyone to bring a partner to be subjected to scruitny even though i personally thing a pastor should scruitnise a man who is trying to marry a sister in his/her church,but the fact of the matter is that most times when a relationship breaks down the pastor and the church is always the first culprit no one shouts the name of the man in question an example is uplawal's assertion that "a redeemed church in london" engage in all sorts of sexual vices even though the pastor might not have a clue such is going on or was being careful in other not to interfere.
for anyone that believes they are spiritually mature enough to choose a partner,then by all means do so without involving the pastor as long as they both agree and it is not in the church's doctrine to interfere but making a choice i will definitely support the pastor being involved because the reputation of his church is at stake,and he will also be the moral buffer and barrier for a vulnerable sister who a player might simply want to take advantage of.
we have experienced a man who was a muslim and pretended to be a christian till he got married to the lady and then showed his true colours this was from the mouth and church of pastor fola alade in london

the first pertinent point i am hinging a large part of my stance towards is the fact that the pastor has never mandated anyone to bring a partner to be subjected to scruitny even though i personally thing a pastor should scruitnise a man who is trying to marry a sister in his/her church,but the fact of the matter is that most times when a relationship breaks down the pastor and the church is always the first culprit no one shouts the name of the man in question an example is uplawal's assertion that "a redeemed church in london" engage in all sorts of sexual vices even though the pastor might not have a clue such is going on or was being careful in other not to interfere.
for anyone that believes they are spiritually mature enough to choose a partner,then by all means do so without involving the pastor as long as they both agree and it is not in the church's doctrine to interfere but making a choice i will definitely support the pastor being involved because the reputation of his church is at stake,and he will also be the moral buffer and barrier for  a vulnerable sister who a player might simply want to take advantage of.
we have experienced a man who was a muslim and pretended to be a christian till he got married to the lady and then showed his true colours this was from the mouth and church of pastor fola alade in london

I fail to see why people think that pastors have any business scrutinising any one for marriage. It is not their business. How would the pastor identify a 'player', is it written on anyone's forehead. As for 'vulnerable sisters', is not not just an indication of how women are viewed in the pentecostal community - weaklings and descendants of Eve who require the headship of the males to guide them and protect them.
Whilst the "muslim man" was pretending to be a member of Fola Alade's church, what did he (Fola Alade) do about him? If he did not discover that the man was a muslim at the time, what difference would it have made whether he was informed about the attraction of the man to the lady?
The reality is that it is about control. the more the pastor knows about what is going on in his subject's congregation's lives, the easier it is for him to control them. After all, what these pastors crave more than anything else is complete obedience to the leaders' words.

tachi:

@kunleOshob

Not accountable to the pastor per se.

Accountable for 'issues '(am sure u get my drift) that may be a fall-out of dating/courting.

I still don't think what ever "issues" might be a fall out of the dating or courting is the pastor's business at least not until they approach the pastor they want to get married and they need him to officiate. I am not saying the pastor can't coun sel them, but subjecting members to take "permission" from pastor before approaching a lady is simply over bearing and nosy.

Zodiac61:

I fail to see why people think that pastors have any business scrutinising any one for marriage. It is not their business.

it is their business if the man is stepping to a sister in the pastor's church,while the pastor is only a sheperd and not the ultimate owner of "the domain" in a manner of speaking he nevertheless is vestede with the responsibility if anything goes wrong in that church,if you were the leader of a church and you heard negative reports of sexual vices going on in a parish of your church you wont be looking for the perpetuators but the pastor you have put in charge no?

Zodiac61:

How would the pastor identify a 'player', is it written on anyone's forehead.

by the following ways,
first he/she will determine if the brother is a member of his church,if not then he will go to GOD in prayers concerning that union.
he/she will consult prophets evangelists who GOD speaks through and ask their counsel concerning that union.
even if the brother does not attend his church,as a pastor it is easier for him to make some descreet enquiries from the brother's church
and in conclusion yes, mathew 7 ;By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit

Zodiac61:

As for 'vulnerable sisters', is not not just an indication of how women are viewed in the pentecostal community - weaklings and descendants of Eve who require the headship of the males to guide them and protect them.

no its not but women stands to loose more in a relationship that has broken down it is not only bordering on religion also on the sociological cultural stigma would you marry a woman who your friends,your brother e.t.c have all slept with??

Zodiac61:

Whilst the "muslim man" was pretending to be a member of Fola Alade's church, what did he (Fola Alade) do about him? If he did not discover that the man was a muslim at the time, what difference would it have made whether he was informed about the attraction of the man to the lady?

well i dont know what he did,but going by some comments on here concerning the issue of pastoral interference,would you blame him if he adduces the reason of not wanting to interfere?
if he was informed,then he would have taken a pro active stance concerning this union,if you read my previous comment i wrote how a man who claimed to be from my church parish went to another city to have an affair with a lady and then borrow 2000 pounds off her and absconded without the knowledge of the pastor,she later found my pastor's tel no and then called him out of the blue,investigations by my pastor showed that he wasnt a member of my parish but another parish in same town she later confessed that he told him he was a deacon in our church and she had also aborted for him.

Zodiac61:

The reality is that it is about control. the more the pastor knows about what is going on in his subject's congregation's lives, the easier it is for him to control them. After all, what these pastors crave more than anything else is complete obedience to the leaders' words.

well irrespective of what you think this is about,i hope you realise the pastor and elders like mr tv 01 has helpfully pointed out in his comments are spiritual fathers to the congregation,therefore it is incumbent upon them to make sure their flocks are sheperded in the right way to glorify the lord.
if you were telling your child off for being naughty,are you controlling him and his life or trying to make things better?
in order for my comments not to sound hollow,i have given you real life instances of why interference is imperative in a momentous decision such as this. if you came to my church and then had an affair with a sister and dumped her no one will mention zodiac61's name because you are gone,the pastor's parish will be the culprit and he will be picking up the pieces,he will be the one counselling the distraught woman

GODSON2009:

well irrespective of what you think this is about,i hope you realise the pastor and elders like mr tv 01 has helpfully pointed out in his comments are spiritual fathers to the congregation,

Hello GODSON2009, Hope you are well. I have every intention of replying to your earlier post as soon as time permits. A point to note, the statement above attributed to me - that was me you were referring to right? - is simply not a view of mine. "Spiritual fathers",  Mummies in Israel" and the like are not notions I subscribe too.

Thanks

God bless
TV

Apologies, I've been delayed.

GODSON2009
first of all,i hope you will permit me if i say that from all i have read of your comments,this is simply your own personal views of what the functions of the pastor should be in the body of believers.

TV
Permission granted. O boy you are taking this constituted authority thing to far 0! I was only joking about that elder thing!
But seriously! Absolutely. My views, based on my understanding. Presumably exactly what you posts are? Your views, based on your understanding? Hence your use of the phrase “personal convictions”?

GODSON2009
while this is clearly stated and understood in the context of ephesians 4;11,in fact a secondary school bible studies student knows that none of them have pre-eminence over each other. i dont re collect having said a pastor is more than a prophet or evangelist,

TV
You appear to be misunderstanding me as well as disagreeing with me. That’s not to say you would agree if you properly understood, so let me take it upon myself to clarify further.

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Does this mean;
1. All those 5 are present and have roles in a local congregation?
2. Does it mean all the functions are currently extant?
3. Could it be talking linearly - historically to date - and not just at a point in time?
4. What does an Apostle do? What would one do in a local congregation?
5. Per 4. For an Evangelist?

That was food for thought and not to overly digress, let me state this. A local congregation only requires shepherds and deacons – who are not even mentioned in this verse – to operate the biblically outlined church structure.
In view here is the role of the pastors/shepherds. I am not contrasting or comparing or grading them against the other 4 roles mentioned. I hope I have clarified that point.

GODSON2009
all i said was that the traditional orthodox churches and new generation pentecostal churches as presently constituted have had "pastors" as shepherds of  the congregation,

TV
We are not debating what obtains, that is self evident. What we are discussing is what the bible outlines and the scriptural narrative depicts.

My first point was there was nothing to suggest sole authority pastorship – SAP - in the bible and the congregation was to be shepherded by a “plurality of elders” – POE.

Indeed that was the first question posed to you. Show scriptural backing for SAP, which you still haven’t done, instead referencing “what obtains”, tradition and the dictionary.

I am not suggesting a congregation is shepherded by a mix of the five – in any proportion – in Ephesians 4:11, or the seniority or right of pre-eminence (if it exists or matters) between them.

GODSON2009
now we can look at all these churches and begin to find where a collection of the five have collectively made every decision including preaching altogether every sunday the fact that a pastor leads and sheperds does not automatically mean he is "the boss" in the context you are looking at it

TV
I hope you understand my position now and realise that you misunderstood my context. Hopefully this point is now moot?

GODSON2009
but it certainly gives him/her the mandate to have a say when a brother wants to marry a sister in a church  he/she is a sheperd of. .in addittion i am struggling to see the relevance of this to the threadster's comment but oh well,

TV
As the discussion progress, we should touch on roles, scope and spheres and hopefully give a fuller answer to the OP’s question. To do that we have to build logically. IMO the short answer is no. In discussion format it would be line upon line.
No mandate – scripturally anyway – is given. Counsel can be asked for and given, but it is not a question of asking for permission. That is for the familial authority to grant and its there the responsibility lies. Church/pastoral involvement is at best adjunct. Not mandatory and not binding. Mandate ke?

So in reference to “inform the pastor” scripturally there is no such thing, which was what we honed in on. If changed to “inform a pastor/elder/shepherd” the answer is still no, and there’s still no mandate. That’s not to say there is no recourse to counsel. But first recourse is always to the family. You seem to have overlooked that point in your Abraham/Isaac example.

GODSON2009
i disagree with that unless you can show me assertive proof by back up or supporting bible verses to that effect that it has a time frame,also you should have realised that i dislike open ended statements where does "for the most part" start and end sire?

TV
Happy to do so sir, let’s read on;

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Please note the first word in v13. Please read it from v11 again, And He himself gave, till. It’s for a time, serves a purpose and when that purpose is served, finito. I appreciate you may have different convictions. I say for the most part, because as long as people are being added to the body, there will be some on the path to “till”. But for an individual, as some stage “till” must be reached/attained. It’s a journey. The relevant function/role can equip/help you there. Also note that in a larger context, it’s talking about the whole church and not individuals. Is this now clarified somewhat? Your dislike of open-ended statements is noted.

GODSON2009
secondly i dont think you have read that bible verse well or else you wont say they deal with only the physical,last i read prophecies is more spiritual,same goes for teaching the word of GOD evangelising and what the five fold deals with,christian needs and development is more geared towards the spiritual which will drive the physical go and read watchman nee's book"breaking of the outer man,release of the inner man"

TV
For the most part believer fellowship will be physical. Hence the need for structure and functions during gatherings. “The fullness” comes from The Lord via the Holy Spirit. A whole new discussion. Maybe someday we’ll have the pleasure.

I managed to read a half a Watchman Nee book once. First time I never finished a book. Maybe someday. It’s not war games or fillums. You got to live it for yourself. Not to denigrate anyones writings of course.

There’s a well known “prophetess”who is big in certain circles here. I meet a lot of ladies who follow her. They go to one of her seminars and she talks about wilderness. They come out and start shouting wilderness. Christianity is not something you get taught or recieve via doctrine. It’s something you experience, something you live.


GODSON2009
while the church is a part of the life of a christian,choosing a partner from both the female and male perspective is also a very important crossroad in one's life as choosing the wrong partner can be disasterous as several biblical instances have shown us, samson and delilah is one,including several GODLY people who were led astray to their destruction due to a union with unGODLY women,there were ocassions when GOD forbade the israelites from marrying from specific tribes e.g the moabites showing the importance of GODly counsel in these matters

TV
Agreed, its important. Samson disobeyed his parent not the Rabbi. It still remains the family prerogative. Church elders can be sought out if required, but not mandatory and not binding. Basic Xtian requirements are clearly laid out. If one can’t adhere to those probably not readt to marry anyway. Ultimately a pastor cannot forcefully stop a wrong/bad/improper union happening anyway. Per your quote, even God did not force his instructions down their throats?

GODSON2009
well i am yet to see what particular part of a christian life  the church is not relevant,which i hope u will educate me on,but we are talking about marriage and without question i stand by my surmissionthat the church and also the pastor either as a "co-leader" or not is very relevant

TV
The church is only in view when believers gather. Church and by extension elders have no authority in your home, work life, social life or anything outside the gathering. What they feed can influence, motivate, colour or drive, but their authority is confined to the church sphere. As I noted, your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should colour everything you do. Hopefully your relationship with Christ goes with you everywhere.

Apologies for the formatting, spelling and incomplete response, but its late and I’m tired. I’ll perhaps attempt to tidy it up tomorrow. Conscious of not responding in a timely manner.

Talk soon

God bless
TV

contd

GODSON2009
good so he/she is competent in the role of a sheperd which i agree with and has been my point however going back to your 1st point(no 1)isnt that a mild contradiction? or maybe you ment to say co-sheperd or co-elder lool

TV
No contradiction – mild, medium or mature! Shepherding is to be performed by suitably qualified elders labouring in concert. No pre-eminence. That’s not to say some may not be more gifted in certain areas than others or minister in different ways or have been elders for different lengths of time.

GODSON2009
i totally and unequivocaly disagree,the bible out of many other things is also a moral and religious compass,if you feel like you know everything there is to know as a christian and also are imminently capable of handling every single thing and situation that comes your way, then that is your personal prerogative but speaking for the majority of christians, i believe the church leadership,specifically the five fold have been relevant till today because clearly christian growth is for a lifetime pastor adeboye when asked about his level as a christian said he is still learning and taking each day as it comes,we have heard him admit to mistakes. same goes for several frontline men and women of GOD IRRESPECTIVE OF YOUR DENOMINATIONAL PERSUATIONS even romans 12;6 recognises that we do not have the same measure of faith hence enjoins us to prophecy,only in proportion to our individual level of faith

TV
And you have every right too. But again, I feel you miss my point here. I’m talking about church structure and operation. But as to individuals, three things. Has one attained to “till” as outlined earlier? Is one led by the spirit? What of the maturity Paul wrote about in Hebrews 6?

GODSON2009
again i totally disagree with you,and i will take this as what it is,your own personal and private stance which has absolutely no bearing on the bible i read

TV
I read you your rights already sir! I asked earlier, what an apostle does in the local congregation, stating your conviction here would help. Perhaps extend that to explain what an apostle does?

GODSON2009
im sorry but again you have contradicted yourself here,apostel paul,was a leader,same as peter e.t.c and they all went out preaching the gospel and convering unbelievers.what do you call what apostle paul was doing all through acts onwards if not over seeing  ? have you read all his letters to the different churches and then compare it to what an overseer does these days??

TV
Please outline the contradiction. I agree Paul – not so much Peter – went about preaching. But the outworking was the same. Preach, convert, gather local believers, raise up elders, move on. The church is then self-sufficient. The Apostolic was to erect the structure according to the blueprint and ensure the eldership function was in place. He didn’t even concern himself with the deaconate. Elders could attend to that once in place.

He wasn’t overseeing in the “G.O.” sense. He was strengthening, counselling, exhorting. These were new believers, new churches, but the apostle wasn’t shepherding or overseeing them remotely. How could one effectively oversee on the road, or by the means of communication extant in those times? He new he would be “departing”, why was there no succession plan if he was GO? He merely exhorted the shepherds to keep doing so and without self interest.

One formed even if there were apostles present, on a day to day basis, they would function as elders/pastors/shepherds, exactly as Paul claimed to do when he was in situ.

GODSON2009
no one is arguing this fact with you,which you seem to be re gurgigating,but paul did not move on,he adressed timothy as a singular leader and timothy wasnt the only one moreover he nurtured and wrote letters of encouragement to all the churches so i dont know where you got your own interpretation from

TV
Timothy laboured with Paul. Timothy’s work in Ephesus was in effect an extension of Pauls. Pauls instruction was to do what he would have done “raise up suitably qualified elders”. If you like, Timothy was working to the same apostolic blueprint. He wasn’t a presiding bishop or overseer as many would like to label him to justify what obtains.

God bless
TV

I wonder if we still have brain to think again. Who is a pastor by the way? If u read the Bible, u would undsntd that God has given u the SAME power that the pastors claim they have. Why cant u pray, seek God's stand on whatever, approach the lady and seal the deal.

I wont be surprised if someone comes out here one day to tell us his/her pastor said b4 they bear children, they should inform the him (pastor). Honestly, we unwittingly equate these pastors to God, and I hope we know the consequences of playing God. It's just laziness. Our people are lazy. They cannot read the Bible and unravel things for themselves. Yes, most pple go to pastors to inteprete every Bible portion; the pastor of cos, does that in such a way that favours him (the pastor). I have always this question, the Bible says a menstruating woman should not enter the church. Y is it that pastors refuse to obey this? Simple: the offering collections will reduce by over 65%. So, they tend to allow women to come to church while in their monthly period. Was that not a law of the old testament? Why abandon some and take some?

Pls, pls, pls, let's talk about something else.

TV01:

Hello GODSON2009, Hope you are well. I have every intention of replying to your earlier post as soon as time permits. A point to note, the statement above attributed to me - that was me you were referring to right? - is simply not a view of mine. "Spiritual fathers", Mummies in Israel" and the like are not notions I subscribe too.

Thanks

God bless
TV

i am well thank you sire,but you didnt get my comment AGAIN because you replied in haste,i was making reference to you in relation to the first part of the comment not the total comment and i was reffering to where you specifically wrote elder,presbyter e.t.c hope this clears any confusion as i will not willingly make false assertions and then attach your name to such

TV01:

Permission granted. O boy you are taking this constituted authority thing to far 0! I was only joking about that elder thing!
But seriously! Absolutely. My views, based on my understanding. Presumably exactly what you posts are? Your views, based on your understanding? Hence your use of the phrase “personal convictions”?

thank GOD that is cleare up for the benefit of everyone reading the comments

TV01:

You appear to be misunderstanding me as well as disagreeing with me. That’s not to say you would agree if you properly understood, so let me take it upon myself to clarify further.

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Does this mean;
1. All those 5 are present and have roles in a local congregation?
2. Does it mean all the functions are currently extant?
3. Could it be talking linearly - historically to date - and not just at a point in time?
4. What does an Apostle do? What would one do in a local congregation?
5. Per 4. For an Evangelist?

That was food for thought and not to overly digress, let me state this. A local congregation only requires shepherds and deacons – who are not even mentioned in this verse – to operate the biblically outlined church structure.
In view here is the role of the pastors/shepherds. I am not contrasting or comparing or grading them against the other 4 roles mentioned. I hope I have clarified that point.

i think i need to ask a question at this point again in seeking clarification what role do you think the 4 should play in the church ? because my understanding of this same ephesians is that they all have roles to play in every church,and their abscense or deficiency in any church will be felt both physically in form of knowledge and spiritually do you agree or disagree with this assertion?
1.therefore i ll say yes to number 1
2.yes they are extant
3. of course it is note that the bible is chronological in nature right from the old testament,to the new testament the time of jesus christ ministry,the acts of the postles e.t.c
4.obviously the job of a prophet is self explanatory,the role of the apostle and the evangelist is intinerant in nature,they go all about just like the apostles of old deliveriing the word of GOD, 2nd timothy 4;2 encapsulates their function perfectly in the body of believers"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction" and we know what the job of the teacher is which is self explanatory as well. so basically apostles and evangelists are itinerant men of GOD,while the pastor is supposed to be resident in the parish,the teacher can choose to be itinerant or not the prophet as well but they are mostly itinerant due to different churches needing the services of their gift.deacon's functions have been clearly spelt out including who should and shouldnt be a deacon,i can avail you of the relevant verses if you want we know who a sheperd is already dont we?

TV01:

We are not debating what obtains, that is self evident. What we are discussing is what the bible outlines and the scriptural narrative depicts.

well,you are yet to show me where the bible expressly stipulates or even remotely stipulates that the church must be lead by the plurality of elders,what i have seen is the pertinent ministeries needed in the body of the church which i have severally acknowledged right from the get go

TV01:

My first point was there was nothing to suggest sole authority pastorship – SAP - in the bible and the congregation was to be shepherded by a “plurality of elders” – POE.

and i am in turn saying to you to show me any single church where that kind of arrangement is presently going on,considering the fact that i am yet to be shown a scriptural backing for that arrangement apart from that which highlights the 5 fold including their functions

TV01:

Indeed that was the first question posed to you. Show scriptural backing for SAP, which you still haven’t done, instead referencing “what obtains”, tradition and the dictionary.

you are asking me to show scriptural backing which says that the pastor is to sheperd the church and i am asking you to show me scriptural backing that the church must be collectively led by the five fold which you are yet to do instead you are equally making reference to the chronology and context of the ephesians verse which has not shed a new light in any way shape or form other than being a narrative at best. so this will be likened to a mexican stand off would it not?

TV01:

I am not suggesting a congregation is shepherded by a mix of the five – in any proportion – in Ephesians 4:11, or the seniority or right of pre-eminence (if it exists or matters) between them.

well then what are you suggesting for the sake of clarity and focus

TV01:

I hope you understand my position now and realise that you misunderstood my context. Hopefully this point is now moot?

still seeking for clarity which is why i keep on harping on that same phrase

TV01:

As the discussion progress, we should touch on roles, scope and spheres and hopefully give a fuller answer to the OP’s question. To do that we have to build logically. IMO the short answer is no. In discussion format it would be line upon line.
No mandate – scripturally anyway – is given. Counsel can be asked for and given, but it is not a question of asking for permission. That is for the familial authority to grant and its there the responsibility lies. Church/pastoral involvement is at best adjunct. Not mandatory and not binding. Mandate ke?

i hope you realise there are two different meanings to mandate with their different phonetic pronounciation?
i am still waiting for the logical explanation which precludes the pastor from having a say,first off the pastor will never from my own experience mandate any brother and sister to get married by force he/she can suggest and if you trust him/her as a man of GOD or a true servant of GOD then you will certainly heed their advice,we both know what happened to those who failed to heed the advice of men of GOD in the bible.
as for "permission"you have just tried to stealthly sneak this into the debate which was not there to start with,"to inform"is what the threadster used, and the contextual meaning is to make him aware,considering the sister is presumably a spiritual daughter of sorts and the pastor and wife will pick up the pieces if anything goes wrong,then informing him in that sense is in order, that is in no way lessening the power or influence of the parent,in fact pastor kalejaiye was just saying it just 3 or so weeks ago that any pastor of redeemed who intentionally marries a couple without the express permission of the parents deserves any action the parents decide to bring upon him.so no one has ever said church/pastoral involvement is binding, you can decide not to get married and just live with your spouse but ppl decide to involve the church,even though the bible does not talk about marriage or going to bless your union in the church or with any man or woman of GOD

TV01:

So in reference to “inform the pastor” scripturally there is no such thing, which was what we honed in on. If changed to “inform a pastor/elder/shepherd” the answer is still no, and there’s still no mandate. That’s not to say there is no recourse to counsel. But first recourse is always to the family. You seem to have overlooked that point in your Abraham/Isaac example.

again i disagree with you, considering the fact that the job of a pastor in concert with the 4 fold is a position of not only leadership,nurturing e.t.c but also spiritual fathers. then it is incumbent upon a true believer to inform the pastor."informing the pastor"is about getting GODly counsel if not why isnt he informing the deacon,or the church choirs instead?i have never for a single instance discountenanced the family from the whole issue or you are free to point it out in the totality of y comments where i have,all i have consistently maintained is the importance and relevance of the pastor in the scheme of things so you are willing to acknowledge the familial recourse concerning the abraham/isaac example but nor the role of not just the servant but the "GODLY servant" put in a position of what abraham saw as GODly and serious resposibility which required GODLY counsel??lol

TV01:

Happy to do so sir, let’s read on;

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Please note the first word in v13. Please read it from v11 again, And He himself gave, till. It’s for a time, serves a purpose and when that purpose is served, finito. I appreciate you may have different convictions. I say for the most part, because as long as people are being added to the body, there will be some on the path to “till”. But for an individual, as some stage “till” must be reached/attained. It’s a journey. The relevant function/role can equip/help you there. Also note that in a larger context, it’s talking about the whole church and not individuals. Is this now clarified somewhat? Your dislike of open-ended statements is noted.

i wont say anything more or add anymore to this particular comments because you have beat me to it i e"the bolded lol maybe we should open a thread just for both of us in a clear and unambiguous meaning and interpretation of the phrase" the unity of the faith of the knowledge of the son of GOD, without even adding "to a perfect man"
i could also say for the sake of argument that the coming of the lord,end of the world has a time frame in that loose context without necessary committing myself like you are trying to do, after all it is a fluid and amorphous statement as well no?lol lol

TV01:

For the most part believer fellowship will be physical. Hence the need for structure and functions during gatherings. “The fullness” comes from The Lord via the Holy Spirit. A whole new discussion. Maybe someday we’ll have the pleasure.

again,i guess you are at liberty to believe that either for the sake of this discourse or as a conviction,but i beleive my walk of salvation,essence of church and fellowship e.t.c is more of spiritual with some physical manifestations

TV01:

I managed to read a half a Watchman Nee book once. First time I never finished a book. Maybe someday. It’s not war games or fillums. You got to live it for yourself. Not to denigrate anyones writings of course.

There’s a well known “prophetess”who is big in certain circles here. I meet a lot of ladies who follow her. They go to one of her seminars and she talks about wilderness. They come out and start shouting wilderness. Christianity is not something you get taught or recieve via doctrine. It’s something you experience, something you live.

well,i dont know of any prominent "prophetess" that i can comfortably seat under their ministration just yet,maybe i have not met any yet or i am still a young christian or both so i really cannot comment on that particular incident however using an isolated incident to make a sweeping judgement is totally subjective,while i agree that putting too much in doctrine can be dangerous,and i dont believe i have advocated that in all my comments i disagree with you as per being taught, in the five fold "a teacher"is included for a purpose" an apostle and evangelist are included there for a purpose so to now state that christianity is not taught is a totally false and misleading statement indeed

TV01:

Agreed, its important. Samson disobeyed his parent not the Rabbi. It still remains the family prerogative. Church elders can be sought out if required, but not mandatory and not binding. Basic Xtian requirements are clearly laid out. If one can’t adhere to those probably not readt to marry anyway. Ultimately a pastor cannot forcefully stop a wrong/bad/improper union happening anyway. Per your quote, even God did not force his instructions down their throats?

i see,so through who did the parents get the various warnings from GOD that a blade must not touch his head,no alcohol e.t.c?? his school teacher?
going by your stance they could have disobeyed,after all why should they obey a random man of GOD who was "mandating them"(note the use of the word lol) read judges 13 especially the wife's account after all sarai laughed when some "men of GOD" told abram he and sarai will have a son no?
church wedding is not mandatory bur we do it anyway? yes basic christian requirements are laid out,part of which is listening to GODLY counsel or that person is on the path of destruction, the bible didnt say that individual will be destroyed,so it is a p[rocess but on the path of,
exactly but people still "informed GOD" RIGHT??

TV01:

The church is only in view when believers gather. Church and by extension elders have no authority in your home, work life, social life or anything outside the gathering. What they feed can influence, motivate, colour or drive, but their authority is confined to the church sphere. As I noted, your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should colour everything you do. Hopefully your relationship with Christ goes with you everywhere.

Apologies for the formatting, spelling and incomplete response, but its late and I’m tired. I’ll perhaps attempt to tidy it up tomorrow. Conscious of not responding in a timely manner.

Talk soon

God bless
TV

well again i beg to differ upon that simply because we all as individual christians are going through different issues,we all have different levels of faith and the fact that some christians faith need shoring up periodically,the fact that they need to be "corrected,rebuked and encouraged" according to 2nd timothy 4;2 shows that men and women of GOD are an integral part of a christian life and i am yet to see any man or woman of GOD stand with any confidence and say they dont consult with other men or women of GOD on issues botherring them or of mutual benefit
no worries sire,been making a lot of errors i my comments as well but oh well it is only an informal discourse so i guess we r let off will be calmly waiting for your retort while i dig in to my bible again shalom

TV01:

contd
No contradiction – mild, medium or mature! Shepherding is to be performed by suitably qualified elders labouring in concert. No pre-eminence. That’s not to say some may not be more gifted in certain areas than others or minister in different ways or have been elders for different lengths of time.

in order words,if a resident pastor is more giften then he/she is suitable for the role? as opposed to itinerant prophets,who is suited more for prophecy,evangelist and apostles who are supposed to be going round hence cannot be up to speed on who is dating who in the church and the teacher whose own main pre occupation is teaching the word

TV01:

And you have every right too. But again, I feel you miss my point here. I’m talking about church structure and operation. But as to individuals, three things. Has one attained to “till” as outlined earlier? Is one led by the spirit? What of the maturity Paul wrote about in Hebrews 6?

i would have believed your point if not for your earlier comment where you re iterated this by saying that christianity is not taught?

TV01:

I read you your rights already sir! I asked earlier, what an apostle does in the local congregation, stating your conviction here would help. Perhaps extend that to explain what an apostle does?

i have addressed this with all of my convictions behind my stance sire

TV01:

Please outline the contradiction. I agree Paul – not so much Peter – went about preaching. But the outworking was the same. Preach, convert, gather local believers, raise up elders, move on. The church is then self-sufficient. The Apostolic was to erect the structure according to the blueprint and ensure the eldership function was in place. He didn’t even concern himself with the deaconate. Elders could attend to that once in place.

again i am forced to disagree with you sire,the contradictions are as follows before i state them peter and paul disagreed on certain issues bothering on the gentiles hence they went their seperate ways so they were both preaching in highlighting some of the contradictions
1.what is apostle paul doing in the 1st chapter of colossians sire if not doing the job of an over seer?
2.what was he doing in ephesians especially read chapter 5
3.what was his advice to timothy on how to treat young and old widows including elders?
4.what did he say about deacons and who copuldnt be a deacon?
the list goes o including when he was rebuking the colossians that some leaders were preaching false doctrines
in other words this comment of yours is totally false sire

TV01:

He wasn’t overseeing in the “G.O.” sense. He was strengthening, counselling, exhorting. These were new believers, new churches, but the apostle wasn’t shepherding or overseeing them remotely. How could one effectively oversee on the road, or by the means of communication extant in those times? He new he would be “departing”, why was there no succession plan if he was GO? He merely exhorted the shepherds to keep doing so and without self interest.

exactly!!in other words "over- "seeing" or what exactly do you think the general over seer does? didnt these new churches provide for his needs?
the road is exactly where you over see sire,or he would permanently stay in one place as a resident apostle,the only difference is that he had no church or ministry to speak of,but remember the word of the lord jesus himself said that we will do more than he did while he was alive, not the same but more, you are going into the administrative sphere which i wouldnt want to digress into let us not lose focus

TV01:

One formed even if there were apostles present, on a day to day basis, they would function as elders/pastors/shepherds, exactly as Paul claimed to do when he was in situ.

yes because like you said there were no pastors then,nor teachers e.t.c so the 12 apostles thats counting judas'iscariot's replacement even though were apostles were doing the job of prophets,teachers,pastors e.t.c these days we have the five fold adequately represented in the church

TV01:

Timothy laboured with Paul. Timothy’s work in Ephesus was in effect an extension of Pauls. Pauls instruction was to do what he would have done “raise up suitably qualified elders”. If you like, Timothy was working to the same apostolic blueprint. He wasn’t a presiding bishop or overseer as many would like to label him to justify what obtains.

God bless
TV

irrespective of what motive or colouration timothy was"a son" to apostle paul and he advised him as such either he laboured with him or not is immaterial at this point,the fact of the matter is that timothy was hesitant to activate and use the annointing upon him and apostle paul was encouraging him to do so,including giving him spiritual and practical advice on how to sheperd the brand new ministry entrusted in his hand if you feel so strongly that you disagree with this then let us open a seperate thread sire to fully vent both our beliefs concerning this.
there was a clear hierachy here,apostle paul was clearly not only a leader but a father to timothy and if you read from acts to all the letters,especially when he was in prison and sending letters through different people he always made mention of them as someone assisting him or a son e.t.c
shalom

Hi GODSON2009.

Per concerns about derailing, I have ressurected an erlier thread in a similar vein to the one we are discussing. Lets resume there if you please.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-30552.0.html

Cheers
TV