I was having a discussion with my kids.
Jesus was crucified.
And this  was a form of execution a death sentence.
If They had sentcenced him to be hanged, would they still have been hanging people today.
What of beheading ?
There was a Time they used to behead people?
Why has that stopped.
people sentenced to death  dose it matter the way the die.
If Jesus had been beheaded would the French people have found another way of executing people because they did not want to kill people they way Jesus was Killed?

Well, the substance of the topic is not easily established by a family discussion, though at that level it may only help the feeling of the moment.

As a Christian, it would require something more engaging to present for persuasion to those wondering about the subject. Some of these would include Biblical history and the convicting power of the Gospel.

Jesus was crucified; and not only so, but He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

When we think theologically, one has to ask why the message of the Cross is an offence to Islam. Muhammad dreaded anything that reminded him about the Cross; and is it any wonder that one of his prophecies is that Jesus will come again and destroy all symbolisms of the Cross and those who believe in the crucifiction?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-39929.0.html#msg1010612

[b]The cross has become associated with Christianity. It was not, however, an early Christian symbol and, indeed, the Sabbath-keeping Churches have traditionally been iconoclastic and have abhorred the use of the cross symbol as pagan. Indeed, some of the Sabbath-keeping Christians have been martyred for their opposition to the use of crosses in Christian symbolism. The Vandals were iconoclastic Subordinationists who destroyed the idols revered in Greece and Rome.


The Paulicians were iconoclasts as were all the Sabbatati who were associated with or descended from them.

The Paulicians always objected to their rivals worship of the Cross (Armenian, Chazus); therefore the term Chazitzarii, Chazinzarians (Staurolatræ) seems to denote no small sect, but the Established Church of Armenia as viewed by the Paulicians (Whitley ERE, art. Sects, p. 319).


This iconoclastic sentiment went with the Sabbatati throughout Europe. Peter of Bruys taught for some twenty years in the south of France against the excesses of the clergy, and specifically against the use of the cross. The Church authorities wrote against the practice thus:

In your parts the people are re-baptized, the churches profaned, the altars overthrown, crosses burned; on the very day of our Lord’s passion meat is publicly eaten, priests are scourged, monks imprisoned and compelled by terrors and tortures to marry (Whitley, ibid., p. 321; cf. A H Newman Manual of Church History, Philadelphia, 1900, 1. 560).


This prohibition against crosses (as well as the practice of adult baptism) continues in Sabbath-keeping Churches of God to the present. The cross symbol is most ancient and has a number of mystical meanings.[/b]

@stimulus

Funny how you people preach what you cant defend.

You have been saying that Jesus was killed and crucified and still saying it. The thread 'was jesus crucified' is on and I have not been seeing your input there. I need your input to the questions or better still the issue can be addressed here depending on how you want it.

We will also shed light on the only sign of Jonah as given by Jesus.

Also, we will know if really jesus rose on the third day and fulfilled the prophecy of Jonah.

Take care.

babs787:

@stimulus

Funny how you people preach what you can't defend.

You have been saying that Jesus was killed and crucified and still saying it. The thread 'was jesus crucified' is on and I have not been seeing your input there. I need your input to the questions or better still the issue can be addressed here depending on how you want it.

We will also shed light on the only sign of Jonah as given by Jesus.

Also, we will know if really jesus rose on the third day and fulfilled the prophecy of Jonah.
Take care.

@ babs787 is this supposed to be a joke. At the last count there was a thread on the teacher in Gombe that no muslim has ventured to go near, "people preach what they cant defend" oh referring to yourself , are you , You should be hiding in here, such effrontary , Gosh

@batu,

buluti:

@ babs787 is this supposed to be a joke. At the last count there was a thread on the teacher in Gombe that no muslim has ventured to go near, "people preach what they can't defend" oh referring to yourself , are you , You should be hiding in here, such effrontary , Gosh

No matter how hard you guys ask people like babs787 to defend what they preach, you won't see them anywhere. When they do show up, it is only to make very abstract statements that are denials at best.



@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus

Funny how you people preach what you can't defend.

You have been saying that Jesus was killed and crucified and still saying it. The thread 'was jesus crucified' is on and I have not been seeing your input there. I need your input to the questions or better still the issue can be addressed here depending on how you want it.

We will also shed light on the only sign of Jonah as given by Jesus.

Also, we will know if really jesus rose on the third day and fulfilled the prophecy of Jonah.

Take care.

No vex, but I've indeed read the other thread about your claims and arguments (rather, denials) about the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ; and I'm quite satisfied with the rebuttal by several, especially shahan. What you keep doing is making denial after denial on some fancy twisting of words which you find difficult to assimilate; and that's not my problem. I could as well serve you denial after denial against Muhammad and his acclaimed adventure; but intellectuals don't stoop that low. There's nothing new you're likely to reharsh here that has not been laid to rest; so I'm not in the least interested in that boring game you trump up like a recurring decimal.

The Bible states that Jesus was both crucified and rose again from the dead, regardless the denials of Muhammad in the Qur'an.

@drbelloim,

drbelloim:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-39929.0.html#msg1010612

[b]The cross has become associated with Christianity. It was not, however, an early Christian symbol and, indeed, the Sabbath-keeping Churches have traditionally been iconoclastic and have abhorred the use of the cross symbol as pagan. Indeed, some of the Sabbath-keeping Christians have been martyred for their opposition to the use of crosses in Christian symbolism. The Vandals were iconoclastic Subordinationists who destroyed the idols revered in Greece and Rome.


The Paulicians were iconoclasts as were all the Sabbatati who were associated with or descended from them.

The Paulicians always objected to their rivals worship of the Cross (Armenian, Chazus); therefore the term Chazitzarii, Chazinzarians (Staurolatræ) seems to denote no small sect, but the Established Church of Armenia as viewed by the Paulicians (Whitley ERE, art. Sects, p. 319).


This iconoclastic sentiment went with the Sabbatati throughout Europe. Peter of Bruys taught for some twenty years in the south of France against the excesses of the clergy, and specifically against the use of the cross. The Church authorities wrote against the practice thus:

In your parts the people are re-baptized, the churches profaned, the altars overthrown, crosses burned; on the very day of our Lord’s passion meat is publicly eaten, priests are scourged, monks imprisoned and compelled by terrors and tortures to marry (Whitley, ibid., p. 321; cf. A H Newman Manual of Church History, Philadelphia, 1900, 1. 560).


This prohibition against crosses (as well as the practice of adult baptism) continues in Sabbath-keeping Churches of God to the present. The cross symbol is most ancient and has a number of mystical meanings.[/b]

The Cross has been denied, not only by cultic pseudo-Christian groups, but also by Muhammad who expressed disdain in any and everything expressing the thought of the Crucifixion. It is too much of a bitter pill for them to swallow, and a constant reminder of the fact that they cannot find salvation in their systems nor guarantee themselves of any means of being saved.

Regardless, the Lord Jesus Christ specifically spoke of the cross (Luke 9:23 & 14:27) and His crucifixion (Matt. 20:19). He expounded thereto that His death and resurrection were the basis of redemption and true salvation: "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45). So that no one could mistake the graphic language of the crucifixion, Jesus described it this way: 'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up' (John 3:14).

You will find abundant testimonies to the veracity of Jesus' death and resurrection in the NT; but quoting theories that deny them is neither scholarly nor honest. One could do exactly the same thing with the Qur'an and take Muhammad to the cleaners for his acclaimed adventures, which by Biblical standards classes him as a false prophet (Deut. 18:20 & 22).

@buluti

buluti:

@ babs787 is this supposed to be a joke. At the last count there was a thread on the teacher in Gombe that no muslim has ventured to go near, "people preach what they can't defend" oh referring to yourself , are you , You should be hiding in here, such effrontary , Gosh

Why not be honest with yourself. Havent you been reading posts by muslims on that topic you mentioned?





@stimulus


No vex, but I've indeed read the other thread about your claims and arguments (rather, denials) about the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ; and I'm quite satisfied with the rebuttal by several, especially shahan. What you keep doing is making denial after denial on some fancy twisting of words which you find difficult to assimilate; and that's not my problem. I could as well serve you denial after denial against Muhammad and his acclaimed adventure; but intellectuals don't stoop that low. There's nothing new you're likely to reharsh here that has not been laid to rest; so I'm not in the least interested in that boring game you trump up like a recurring decimal.

The Bible states that Jesus was both crucified and rose again from the dead, regardless the denials of Muhammad in the Qur'an.
[quote][/quote]






Christians will always amuse me. Where have you been when your folks have been denying the prophethood of Muhammed, calling him all sort of names? You didnt say anything on that but deem it fit to come out and talk on my denials to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. If you want to say am denying the crucifixion, yes you are right because there was no crucifixion and I have been giving you verses that go against the crucifixion and have been asking questions on the said crucifixtion.

Well, point of correction, Shahan never produced any rebuttal to my claim, it was only Mrmayor that provided some links to the topic and I even stopped at anointing.

When it comes to issue affecting the bible, you will always give excuse as not to involve yourself in any debate but if it comes to Islam, you will always be seen at the front. It is this same bible that you are reading the Jehovah witness are reading too, both of you claiming to have written according to the original manuscript, but here you are telling me that he was crucified while witnesses are saying no, he was tied to a stake!!! So its not only Muslims but christians too have been denying same.


In continuation, it is in the bible I found out that 'he' is being used in place of 'it' for the dead.

John 20 v 15: sir, if you have taken HIM, hence, tell me, where you have laid HIM, , ,, so that I might take HIM away.

brother, do you think she is looking for a corpse, for 'it' or for a living person 'he'?

And further, she wants to know as to 'where have you laid him' and not where have you buried it.

'so that I might take him away'.

To where? What could she want to do with a buried decomposing body?

It will never make sense to you because it has to do with the foundation of your faith. Dont worry, I wonder what you will say when we get to the sign of Jonah, 'three days and three nights in the belly of fish', we will know if jesus really spent 3 days and three nights. Remember he was buried on Friday night and rose on Sunday morning as said by christians. But I will shed more light on that by the time we get there if you still remain adamant that he died for you.

We will get to the root as we proceed. Truth can never be hidden

Take care, call babs any name you feel like, it is a free world.

@ babs787

In all honesty i have not seen any on the posts or topics. It is in here i learnt of the hadyth or whats it called that apart from the Koran there is a book on the lifestyle of mohammed, i have had muslim friends for years and never knew there was a difference with the books, i am not one to go in search of what another calls truth. I have a personal relationship with my God and if another claims he has found salvation, it is my duty to share the gospel and love of Jesus and if he rejects it i move on, i am not the one to convict the hearts of men.

But when his faith has consistently affected others in their secular lives constantly exhibiting babaric practices in a civilised environment that is never condemned or challenged by his brethren, only offering apologies and sympathies for his actions, i will ask questions where do you get such an ideology from and thats what i have asked muslims in here and getting responses like "the handling of Koran is a very delicate issue i don't want to sin"  what rubbish, that suggest to me that the girl in question didnt want to sin and raised the alarm, i ask is that what she was taught?

Based on the silence i then postulated that it is the influences that your type has received that has led to a bit of tolerance in your views can you convincily say that if you didnt have the western influence you will be this way. I dare say if i never had the influence only esposed to christain doctrine i will be more peaceful, tolerant and almost docile because the rudiments teaches a calm and gentle approach to all issues.

buluti:

@ babs787


Based on the silence i then postulated that it is the influences that your type has received that has led to a bit of tolerance in your views can you convincily say that if you didnt have the western influence you will be this way. I dare say if i never had the influence only esposed to christain doctrine i will be more peaceful, tolerant and almost docile because the rudiments teaches a calm and gentle approach to all issues.

No sir. My tolerance has nothing to do with western influence. There are verses in the Quran that go against exceeding limit, killing, etc. Allah does not support killing. We have muslims from the North that didnt have western influence yet they are very peaceful, tolerant etc.

A person that takes another soul is doomed for hell.

@babs787,

babs787:

Christians will always amuse me. Where have you been when your folks have been denying the prophethood of Muhammed, calling him all sort of names? You didnt say anything on that but deem it fit to come out and talk on my denials to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. If you want to say am denying the crucifixion, yes you are right because there was no crucifixion and I have been giving you verses that go against the crucifixion and have been asking questions on the said crucifixtion.

No vex again. I wish my presence was already registered earlier on. However, I could not have been here to join in the discourse as only recently did I stumble across this Forum while doing a search on the subject of eternal judgement. As for your denials, it is hardly surprising that you're pedantically pushing the tenet of Islam by rote, rather than by an honest consideration of the Biblical texts you've been quoting out of contexts.

babs787:

Well, point of correction, Shahan never produced any rebuttal to my claim, it was only Mrmayor that provided some links to the topic and I even stopped at anointing.

On the contrary, shahan quite debunked most of your arguments, even if she did not refer you to many weblinks; and I could have done the same as mrmayor in the question of Jewish ceremonies respecting the rites of the dead.

babs787:

When it comes to issue affecting the bible, you will always give excuse as not to involve yourself in any debate but if it comes to Islam, you will always be seen at the front. It is this same bible that you are reading the Jehovah witness are reading too, both of you claiming to have written according to the original manuscript, but here you are telling me that he was crucified while witnesses are saying no, he was tied to a stake!!! So its not only Muslims but christians too have been denying same.

I've always debated issues on any front - Islam and Christianity, quoting from the revered Scriptures of both faiths to the point. My declining to participate in endless roundabout debates that have already been thrashed in other threads is not to be misconstrued as excuses.

What is even remarkable is that honest Muslim apologists pretend that schisms don't exist in Islam; and they often present the over-bored case of pseudo-Christian cults and fringe movements as if they represent Biblical Christianity. We all know that Shiites and Shias are deeply divided over doctrine, authenticity of the Hadiths, authorities of the Muslim clerics, and interpretation of the Qur'an.

I'm not a JW; and evangelical Christians have time and again challenged JW doctrines and their spurious version of the Bible. No scholar from the JW camp has eruditely defended what the JW teach.

babs787:

In continuation, it is in the bible I found out that 'he' is being used in place of 'it' for the dead.

John 20 v 15: sir, if you have taken HIM, hence, tell me, where you have laid HIM, , ,, so that I might take HIM away.

brother, do you think she is looking for a corpse, for 'it' or for a living person 'he'?

And further, she wants to know as to 'where have you laid him' and not where have you buried it.

It is not surprising that Islam has no respect for the dead. If Muhammad is dead, as surely as he is, why this double game of referring to the dead Arab prophet as "he", instead of calling Muhammad an "it"? In the same vein, I don't read or hear Muslims refer to the dead Muhammad as an "it" in reference to his burial. Or what is the big deal on such a mute issue?

In any case, Mary wasn't looking for a piece of article; rather, she was looking for HIM - as surely as John 20:15 puts it.

babs787:

'so that I might take him away'.

To where? What could she want to do with a buried decomposing body?

Do you really stop to read rejoinders at all? You claim mrmayor left you some references to check out your doubts, but you still kept on pushing this weathered denial. Jews are known to give their dead a proper and respectful burial, even if it comes a few days after the demise occured. Check again the rejoinder posted by mrmayor.

babs787:

It will never make sense to you because it has to do with the foundation of your faith. Dont worry, I wonder what you will say when we get to the sign of Jonah, 'three days and three nights in the belly of fish', we will know if jesus really spent 3 days and three nights. Remember he was buried on Friday night and rose on Sunday morning as said by christians. But I will shed more light on that by the time we get there if you still remain adamant that he died for you.

There again, I've stated my disinterest in long denials for the sake of arguments. When the time comes, I'll be asking you to turn around and look closer home to your own Qur'an and see the denials that Muhammad gave which Muslims are too embarrassed to comment on.

babs787:

We will get to the root as we proceed. Truth can never be hidden

Take care, call babs any name you feel like, it is a free world

Truth and Islamic propagandist denials are not the same things. And what names did I call you other than yours?

Cheers.

babs787:

No sir. My tolerance has nothing to do with western influence. There are verses in the Quran that go against exceeding limit, killing, etc. Allah does not support killing. We have muslims from the North that didnt have western influence yet they are very peaceful, tolerant etc.

A person that takes another soul is doomed for hell.

Please babs787, you dont have western influence the very fact that you are on this forum can constitute western influence. You surf the net, you hear local & foreign news, you are educated securlarly (well i guess ) etc what do you call that, lets not deceive ourselves if u dont want to call it western influence, call it enlightenment at least we know what we are talking about,

If truely the Quran is against killing please show me, especially pertaining to this desecration matter i really truely want to understand

In addition what do u call "exceeding limit", My question and again its sincere if the Quran is against killing how come the suicide bombers and this babaric behaviour we observe in Nigeria, where do they get their support from, again i ask the question where does the ideology originate from, if its not the Quran, where??

@stimulus

Am putting a stop to it because I dont want it to generate to another issue because I have learnt that most Christians cannot debate without resorting to abuse but will like to say one or two things about your rejoinder.


#On the contrary, shahan quite debunked most of your arguments, even if she did not refer you to many weblinks; and I could have done the same as mrmayor in the question of Jewish ceremonies respecting the rites of the dead.#

If she had debunked, it would have been the earlier questions and I have never asked her the question am asking you now. I stopped at anointing when asking her question, I have not asked her what I am asking you now.

Like I keep saying, christians will never stop amusing me. Christians have been asking muslims same questions over and over again yet no muslims ignored or told them that they have been answered, they (muslims) have been providing the answers despite the fact that they (christians) have been re-bringing the same questions but here, the drama continues,,,,

To the issue of mrmayor, he provided the link based on my question whether jews re-bury the dead after three days and NOT on MARY COMING TO TAKE THE CORPSE.

In the link he provided, it was noted that jews do not re-bury already buried corpse. Also ladies do not partake in the burial. Also from the bible, the secret friends of Jesus had already done the anointing for jesus. So I stopped at anointing in the other thread and am asking you in this thread the reason why Mary wanted to take the body of Jesus away. Common, explanation is not always too much, no muslim has ever complained or told Christians that someone has provided the answer but here comes Christian….





#What is even remarkable is that honest Muslim apologists pretend that schisms don't exist in Islam; and they often present the over-bored case of pseudo-Christian cults and fringe movements as if they represent Biblical Christianity. We all know that Shiites and Shias are deeply divided over doctrine, authenticity of the Hadiths, authorities of the Muslim clerics, and interpretation of the Qur'an.#


Well, even if they are divided in doctrines, they are not divided as per the number of verses in the holy Quran, they don’t discriminate Quran and there is no Quran that has a verse missing but present in another Quran unlike the bible where you have some verses expunged in some versions. Also we have 114 chapters in the Holy Quran whereas, the Protestant are having 66 books while Catholics are having 72 etc…




#Do you really stop to read rejoinders at all? You claim mrmayor left you some references to check out your doubts, but you still kept on pushing this weathered denial. Jews are known to give their dead a proper and respectful burial, even if it comes a few days after the demise occured. Check again the rejoinder posted by mrmayor.#

Very funny. I thought you have gone to the link provided by mrmayor. If you have, you would have read about the mess contained in the link about your supposed crucifixion of Jesus, everything you may be needing regarding same is there, very funny link. The link shouldn’t have been shown at all. I could remember then, babyosis and 4 get me were happy for the link being provided but never checked what it contained. For your information, the link has nothing pertaining to jews re-burying their dead. It only tells how jews bury their dead and not re-burying the already buried corpse. Did Mary want to do the re-burial for Jesus? Na real wa o.



#There again, I've stated my disinterest in long denials for the sake of arguments. When the time comes, I'll be asking you to turn around and look closer home to your own Qur'an and see the denials that Muhammad gave which Muslims are too embarrassed to comment on#.

Its beginning to get bored. You can imagine when christians resort to abuse when questions are being asked yet same is being asked muslim but no muslim resort to abuse. Hmmmmmmm. When the time comes, we will examine the unfulfilled prophesies, historical Jesus, Jesus having female breast and other issues surrounding Jesus Christ in the bible and compare with that of the Holy Quran as well as other verses in both books i.e the creation of both living and non living things, the creation of Adam, how satan deceived them, the stories of the prophets, story of Jesus etc. We wil compare both books in those areas when the time comes.




#Take care, call babs any name you feel like, it is a free world

Truth and Islamic propagandist denials are not the same things. And what names did I call you other than yours?#

Dont worry as we proceed, truth will unveil itself, though it has been unveiling itself but only that christians have been ignoring it due to pride,arrogance etc
You are misunderstanding me. If you can put up any argument without resorting to abuse or name calling, then it will be better because most of them that have been claiming to be tolerant have never shown it. So all am saying is that even if you decide to be calling me name or resort to insults, its ok by me just the way predecessors have been doing.

Take care.

Now this is definately a joke, babs787 you keep accusing people of the same crime you are guilty of, seeking equity my friend you must come with clean hands.

babs787:

Like I keep saying, christians will never stop amusing me. Christians have been asking muslims same questions over and over again yet no muslims ignored or told them that they have been answered, they (muslims) have been providing the answers despite the fact that they (christians) have been re-bringing the same questions but here, the drama continues,,,,

To the issue of mrmayor, he provided the link based on my question whether jews re-bury the dead after three days and NOT on MARY COMING TO TAKE THE CORPSE.

You have chosen tacitly to ignore my post and you make such a statement as that boldened above. Truth be told that statement is a lie, again i restate the question has never been answered and if it has can you please provide the link to the thread i have checked and found nothing, maybe you can do the honours.

babs787 until then you have no moral justification to make any such accusation to anyone. The question is quite simple and clear, please read my earlier post lets, stop this game if you don't want to sin as drixie in the other post stated, then just say so.

Islam is piss

jesus was not just crucified but crucified publicly. is there any contest about that?

@buluti


Am very sorry for my late response. Its not that I ignored your post but was busy replying stimulus.



#Please babs787, you don't have western influence the very fact that you are on this forum can constitute western influence. You surf the net, you hear local & foreign news, you are educated securlarly (well i guess ) etc what do you call that, lets not deceive ourselves if u don't want to call it western influence, call it enlightenment at least we know what we are talking about, #


Educated secularly? Well for your information, my being tolerant has nothing to do with my educational background or whatever name you may call it. I am muslim and I follow what is in the Quran. There is nowhere in the Holy Quran that says we should kill anybody, the only verse(s) where killing is (are) mentioned is during the wars fought by the prophet to repel aggression when he was oppressed, never sold things for in his community, he and his Ummah were never allowed to have anything to do with the community, driven from his home along with his Ummah etc . But painfully enough, some ignorant muslims hide under these verses to perpetrate their atrocities. Allah never ordered people to be killing one another.

I read some links where those that have converted to Christians said all sort of things that they were being ordered to be killing maybe jews and Christians, its never like that. I even questioned some converts and they told me that they have been told to be killing non-muslims, I wonder where they get their stupid ideas from. Even the Holy Prophet gave Christians freedom during his time, they were never harassed, disturbed or tortured, they were allowed to practice their faith. They enjoyed 100% freedom. Honestly, its very painful and shameful to hear muslims killing another person in the name of religion. Allah never supports taking of life he created. I wonder how and who they will bring into the religion when thy start killing non-muslims that are supposed to be reverted to Islam.



#If truely the Quran is against killing please show me, especially pertaining to this desecration matter i really truely want to understand#

But I have been providing verses going against killing. I have provided like two verses below going against taking the life of another person.




#In addition what do u call "exceeding limit", My question and again its sincere if the Quran is against killing how come the suicide bombers and this babaric behaviour we observe in Nigeria, where do they get their support from, again i ask the question where does the ideology originate from, if its not the Quran, where? ?#


Like I said in one of the threads, there is wider difference between knowledge and understanding. Reciting the Quran from the beginning to the end does not guarantee you to be a true muslim, a true muslim is the one that never 'exceed limits'. Exceeding limits here means that a muslim that goes beyond what is in the Quran and the Hadith and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet. Understanding and application of the Holy Quran to every situation matter most. I know that there are some christians here that know verses in the Quran and if there is any verses on suicide bombers, they would have brought them out for people to see. There is nowhere in the Quran that says you should be killing people.

Now if you want to be labelling muslims as being terrorist or whatever citing the Gombe case, are we not having muslims in the South and are we not having Muslims in the East or middle belt. Afterall, their Quran is not different from my own Quran and there is nowhere in the Quran that says we should go out and be killing people. Ability to read something doesnt guarantee you that you have mastered the intricacies therein but understanding and your application of what you have learnt gives you upper hand among very many.

This is a verse pertaining to same:

Quran 60 v 8: Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just.

Let me give another verse on killing

Quran 17 v 33: And do not kill anyone whose killing Allah has forbidden , except for a just cause. And whoever is killed wrongfully (intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority (to demand Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive or to take blood money. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer). Verily, he is helped (by the Islamic Law)

Thanks for the perseverance.

spoilt:

jesus was not just crucified but crucified publicly. is there any contest about that?

Yes, apart from the Bible and some later date Christian apologetic writings, there are no records of Jesus' supposed crucifiction. All references to the life and deeds of the historical Christ are very mirky historiography.

@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus

Am putting a stop to it because I don't want it to generate to another issue because I have learnt that most Christians cannot debate without resorting to abuse but will like to say one or two things about your rejoinder.

If you perceived any abuses in my rejoinders (if at all), no vex - and I take them back. However, the substance of the debate should not be brushed over on perceived abuses while ignoring or scooting away from the question being debated.

babs787:

#On the contrary, shahan quite debunked most of your arguments, even if she did not refer you to many weblinks; and I could have done the same as mrmayor in the question of Jewish ceremonies respecting the rites of the dead.#

If she had debunked, it would have been the earlier questions and I have never asked her the question am asking you now. I stopped at anointing when asking her question, I have not asked her what I am asking you now.

Since you're offering me a fresh question, I take it then that my statement stands as was: she debunked your arguments.

babs787:

Like I keep saying, christians will never stop amusing me. Christians have been asking muslims same questions over and over again yet no muslims ignored or told them that they have been answered, they (muslims) have been providing the answers despite the fact that they (christians) have been re-bringing the same questions but here, the drama continues,,,,

Before you begin to applaud yourself on that (as you often do), I counter that there are many questions still left unanswered by Muslims on the Forum. An example is the question of the claim of Islam being a monotheistic religion. Muslims often allege that Christians worship three Gods; and in the midst of the discussions, Muslim apologists very quickly switch and go haywire; scooting away from the main issue, and then launching into derogatory and inflamatory remarks like "so your God died for you??"

In the wake of all this childish drama, one cannot but loudly applaud the challenges offered by a former Muslim - shahan. Against the backdrop of otiose and lazy claims by Muslims that the plurality of pronouns (WE, US, OUR) used for Allah in the Qur'an indicates 'plurality of majesty' (such as in the speeches of the Queen of England), shahan's intelligent refutation seems to have silenced those celebrated ipse dixit of Islam's disguised polytheism.

babs787:

To the issue of mrmayor, he provided the link based on my question whether jews re-bury the dead after three days and NOT on MARY COMING TO TAKE THE CORPSE.

In the link he provided, it was noted that jews do not re-bury already buried corpse. Also ladies do not partake in the burial. Also from the bible, the secret friends of Jesus had already done the anointing for jesus. So I stopped at anointing in the other thread and am asking you in this thread the reason why Mary wanted to take the body of Jesus away.

# First, Jewish ealiest beliefs included re-burying of those already buried, especially where there is a specific request for that, or where circumstances made it necessary to fulfill certain burying rites of important figures among the Jews. Such was the case of Joseph, who at first was buried in Egypt (Gen. 50:26); then after the Israelites left Egypt, he was re-buried in Shechem (Josh. 24:32). Same could be said of King Saul and his sons, whose bones at first were buried under a tree at Jabesh (1 Sam. 31:11-13; actually, "buried Saul" - 2 Sam. 2:4; and "buried him" ); but were later recovered and re-buried by David's men at Benjamin in Zelah (2 Sam. 21:12-14).

So, yes, the Jews were known to have re-buried their dead. If anyone offers that Jews do not re-bury their dead, such a thinker is disregarding the Scriptures and playing to some fancy ideas - ideas which Muslim apologists are quick to latch unto as long as it helps their Islamic denials and propaganda.

# Second, women particpated in the funeral and burial rites of their dead (scroll to the second section titled "Which Family Members Mourn". In that link (as several other Jewish sites confirm), those who typically mourn the dead include the mother and father, son and daughter, brother and sister, (including half-brother and half-sister), and husband and wife.

# Third, your questions, though foggy, were mainly challenging the idea of Jewish burial rites involving embalming, especially on the suspicion that the Body of Jesus would have been decomposing at the time Mary went to the sepulchre (click here to read it again). Nonetheless, mrmayor's rejoinder was precisely to the point, offering that reference as proof that the Jews indeed (a) anointed their dead in certain circumstances/conditions; and (b) Mary most likely went to the sepulchre for that same purpose (see Mark 16:1).

Notice also that he pointed out the word used was "ANOINT", and not your misleading word "MASSAGE".

#Third, I really don't know why exactly Mary wanted to take the body of Jesus away. However, it is known in Biblical Jewish tradition that important figures in Jewish communities were given a re-burial as a sign of proper respect and honour, especially when such a historic figure might have bled in death.

babs787:

Common, explanation is not always too much, no muslim has ever complained or told Christians that someone has provided the answer but here comes Christian….

It's not anyone's problem if Muslims don't speak up where answers have been given. And where such answers have been provided, Christians who don't read issues with their eyes closed are responsible enough to point them out; rather than pretend the opposite. So, I really don't see why you've suddenly taken to these petty complaints about Christians being this, that or the other.

babs787:

#What is even remarkable is that honest Muslim apologists pretend that schisms don't exist in Islam; and they often present the over-bored case of pseudo-Christian cults and fringe movements as if they represent Biblical Christianity. We all know that Shiites and Shias are deeply divided over doctrine, authenticity of the Hadiths, authorities of the Muslim clerics, and interpretation of the Qur'an.#

Well, even if they are divided in doctrines, they are not divided as per the number of verses in the holy Quran, they don’t discriminate Quran and there is no Quran that has a verse missing but present in another Quran unlike the bible where you have some verses expunged in some versions. Also we have 114 chapters in the Holy Quran whereas, the Protestant are having 66 books while Catholics are having 72 etc…

Evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews have never seen the Apocrypha as part of the canonical Scriptures, so you can't dribble round this with the weathered debate about Catholicism uadhering to 72 books. Even among Muslims who hold to just one Qur'an, they are not all agreed what it says in all of its 114 chapters - or why do they have so many Englsih versions saying so many different things, especially as translated by Muslims themselves? Not to mention that the divide between Muslims have led them to kill one another as in the recent Shiites against Shias in Iraq?

At the end of the day, Muslims fail to realize that the same allegations they levy against Christianity are also deep-seated in Islam.

babs787:

#Do you really stop to read rejoinders at all? You claim mrmayor left you some references to check out your doubts, but you still kept on pushing this weathered denial. Jews are known to give their dead a proper and respectful burial, even if it comes a few days after the demise occured. Check again the rejoinder posted by mrmayor.#

Very funny. I thought you have gone to the link provided by mrmayor. If you have, you would have read about the mess contained in the link about your supposed crucifixion of Jesus, everything you may be needing regarding same is there, very funny link. The link shouldn’t have been shown at all. I could remember then, babyosis and 4 get me were happy for the link being provided but never checked what it contained. For your information, the link has nothing pertaining to jews re-burying their dead. It only tells how jews bury their dead and not re-burying the already buried corpse. Did Mary want to do the re-burial for Jesus? Na real wa o.

If you can read, please simply scroll up and see my answers to the fact that Jews are well known to re-bury their dead.

babs787:

#There again, I've stated my disinterest in long denials for the sake of arguments. When the time comes, I'll be asking you to turn around and look closer home to your own Qur'an and see the denials that Muhammad gave which Muslims are too embarrassed to comment on#.

Its beginning to get bored. You can imagine when christians resort to abuse when questions are being asked yet same is being asked muslim but no muslim resort to abuse.

That's not honest; for many Muslims are known to be quite belligerent and impudent - so please try not magnifying your dishonesty.

babs787:

Hmmmmmmm. When the time comes, we will examine the unfulfilled prophesies, historical Jesus, Jesus having female breast and other issues surrounding Jesus Christ in the bible and compare with that of the Holy Quran as well as other verses in both books i.e the creation of both living and non living things, the creation of Adam, how satan deceived them, the stories of the prophets, story of Jesus etc. We wil compare both books in those areas when the time comes.

If you're going to debate issues intelligently, I might oblige you. If otherwise, you may as well look for another username for this Forum before I'm through schooling your roundabout arguments.

babs787:

#Take care, call babs any name you feel like, it is a free world

Yep, you're not the only one at the receiving end.

babs787:

Truth and Islamic propagandist denials are not the same things. And what names did I call you other than yours?#

Dont worry as we proceed, truth will unveil itself, though it has been unveiling itself but only that christians have been ignoring it due to pride,arrogance etc
You are misunderstanding me. If you can put up any argument without resorting to abuse or name calling, then it will be better because most of them that have been claiming to be tolerant have never shown it. So all am saying is that even if you decide to be calling me name or resort to insults, its ok by me just the way predecessors have been doing.

Take care.

In just about the same way, try understanding issues and people on the Forum without resorting to the usual antics that have earned you a trademark on the Forum. At least, you'd see that I do my best to deal with issues rather than circumvent them and scoot off to irrelevant excuses. Where answers are offered, one would hope that we would all be honest enough to appreciate them, rather than come back with endless infantile "questions" and denials. Try that for size, and see how things change for you.

Cheerio.

babs787 thanx for your reply, you can attest your tolerance to being a muslim, its your opinion and you are entitled to same. I definately have muslim friends that are not violent very tolerant fun loving people (though they used to say they are not serious muslims).

So i get your point. In addition i have read the quotations you provided not being a muslim and being just verses (not the whole text) i don't want to misquote but the text is so ambigous, Quran 17:33 has "except for a just cause, the 2nd part can also be easily abused it gives room for excesses. Was it Karl Marx that said religion is the opium of the masses and with such room provided, we know the effect of opium on its user it leads to irrational acts.

But again i don't want to use that as a bases because it is not enough, in my opinion it does not capture the true intent of the writer of that passage, i don't want to misquote.

Having said that you have not answered my question and i will explain why?

I asked what the Quran said categorically on the desecration of the Quran? I didnt ask about killing in general? Is there a portion of the Quran that speaks about "your " Quran and its desecration and what your reaction should be. If there is none or you havent come across,  say so and lets move on.

Secondly you said the issue had been treated in other threads please provide it. Please don't provide a vague thread where exchanges were taking place,  Islam is peace(Muslim), Islam is not Peace (Christain) and the likes, No thats not what am asking or looking for. This is for my personal use because i want to understand, a thread that had dealt with issues like a debate showing full text and not mere verses explaining this desecration of the Quran.

I am taking the issues i don't understand with Islam one at a time to understand, its the desecration of the Quran that led to the death in Gombe, so am starting from there.

Again please don't take round me in circles i am serious, theres no muslim around me i wouldnt have bothered asking on Nairaland if i were back home i would have gone to an Imam, if you can help me do so, if you can't say so and move on. I really am getting tired of asking the same question. We are educated people irrespective of our religion so lets act accordingly.

Good luck trying to get an answer about desecration.
I had tried and given up.

@buluti


So i get your point. In addition i have read the quotations you provided not being a muslim and being just verses (not the whole text) i don't want to misquote but the text is so ambigous, Quran 17:33 has "except for a just cause, the 2nd part can also be easily abused it gives room for excesses. Was it Karl Marx that said religion is the opium of the masses and with such room provided, we know the effect of opium on its user it leads to irrational acts.

But again i don't want to use that as a bases because it is not enough, in my opinion it does not capture the true intent of the writer of that passage, i don't want to misquote.


You are free to misquote. In addition, in your own opinion, what does the writer meant by that passage.



I asked what the Quran said categorically on the desecration of the Quran? I didnt ask about killing in general? Is there a portion of the Quran that speaks about "your " Quran and its desecration and what your reaction should be. If there is none or you havent come across,  say so and lets move on.


There is no portion of the Quran that speaks on the desecration of the Quran.




Secondly you said the issue had been treated in other threads please provide it. Please don't provide a vague thread where exchanges were taking place,  Islam is peace(Muslim), Islam is not Peace (Christain) and the likes, No thats not what am asking or looking for. This is for my personal use because i want to understand, a thread that had dealt with issues like a debate showing full text and not mere verses explaining this desecration of the Quran.


Ok sir, what do you need here?



I am taking the issues i don't understand with Islam one at a time to understand, its the desecration of the Quran that led to the death in Gombe, so am starting from there.


I am sincerely yours, you may start from there, its ok by me.



Again please don't take round me in circles i am serious, theres no muslim around me i wouldnt have bothered asking on Nairaland if i were back home i would have gone to an Imam, if you can help me do so, if you can't say so and move on. I really am getting tired of asking the same question. We are educated people irrespective of our religion so lets act accordingly.

I am with you and will answer your questions to the best of my ability even if you do not believe me.

@Stimulus

I have decided to shift partially from the issue of Mary Magdalene to another issue which I found very disturbing, so in order not to sin as put by Buluti, am now putting the questions across to you and after that, I will continue from where I stopped.

Here are the questions:

1. I saw a post by someone saying he was crucified publicly, did his disciples witness the crucifixion?


2. Christians say that Jesus and the disciples were aware of what he came to do, if that is the case, why did the disciples not believe that he had risen from the dead?


3. If the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn’t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection?


4. Is there anywhere in the bible (both OT and NT) that Jesus foretold his 'crucifixion'?


5. Where was jesus crucified, Outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem?


After these, I move to where I stopped (re-burial) by the jews and to another verse(s).

Thank you.

Hi babs787,

Many thanks for your latest rejoinder. Your calmness is appreciated as well.

However, just one question: As I'm not usually in the business of engaging in protracted debates, what exactly is your motive in reposting these questions?

@stimulus



Thanks for the post too. Re-posting ke, where did u see that? I have not asked you before and that is the more reason I told you that I have shifted partially from the questions I have been asking you.

The motive for my questions is just to bring it you that Jesus was never killed.

@babs787

And if Jesus was not killed, who then was killed? Mohamadu? And Did he ressurect? Poor unbeliever, it is high time you repent before your soul perish in HELL!

babs787 i can see where this is leading and i wont be part of it. Go on asking questions am sure a lot of christains will oblige you.

I really wanted to read the text from the Koran but it seems you guys want to hide it, when i have a bit more time i will go on the net i am sure i will get my answers.

You might wish to speak to belloti who stated otherwise on the desecration issue from the Koran, i dont think i need the info anymore, you are not as informed as you would want to look. Its in responding to difficult questions, your presentation of issues and ability to persuade and guide your readers that shows one really learned in anything. Your ability to do same leaves much to be desired.

The acts of you guys in here tells a lot about Islam to the reader, i hope you know. If i were not a christain the attempts by the christains to take on issues and even argue within themselves on issues would tell me much of the faith, that it is one that allows for your own individual development and growth, the responses from muslims have been so stereo typed that i really wonder why fear in the religion is so deep.

Am beginning to get my answers anyway and understand the fundamentalist reasoning pattern, if the liberals can be this scared of "not wanting to sin" i know what to expect from the fundamentalist.

@buluti

Nobody is hiding anything from you, you are free to purchase the Quran and read anything you feel like reading there.

Its a free world , you are entitled to your opinion. I have given you room to ask any question you feel like but it seems you have nothing to ask, thereby resorting to the statement that someone doesnt have the ability.

I have told you on the issue of the desecration of the Quran, the verse is not in the Quran but if you think that its there as you have labelled us (muslims) liar with regards to the issue of desecration of the Holy Quran, provide it and we it up from there .

You have just started and you have been labelling me as not up to the task for your question(s). I have replied your post on the desecration and I dont know what you are driving at again. So if you think that no muslims can answer you, too bad.

But as we try explaining the issue of desecration, I will want you to prepare for me an answer to this question: "For what purpose will a 'sane' christian wants to desecrate the Quran. I decide to ask the question because of your response to brother Belloti.

So if you have questions for me, you are welcome and if not, no problem then.


As for the issue of crucifixion, its not leading anywhere, I am just trying to learn as you yourself and some christians here have been asking muslims questions and if you think that there is no need asking questions then I will move away to Islamic thread.




#The acts of you guys in here tells a lot about Islam to the reader, i hope you know. If i were not a christain the attempts by the christains to take on issues and even argue within themselves on issues would tell me much of the faith, that it is one that allows for your own individual development and growth, the responses from muslims have been so stereo typed that i really wonder why fear in the religion is so deep.

Am beginning to get my answers anyway and understand the fundamentalist reasoning pattern, if the liberals can be this scared of "not wanting to sin" i know what to expect from the fundamentalist.#


Be specific. Tell me where you are going because you christians fel that you are the professors and that no muslims' response can satisfy you.

Ok i see its not in the Koran, its in the Hadiyth or the other book on the life of mohammed, if you had good intentions to correct me you would have directed me in the right path but no you prefer to play around in circles, as i said i never knew of the hadiyth before now.

To your question why would I meaningfuly desecrate the Koran, my response to you is that its just a book, made from paper if i choose to why shouldnt i??, if i take your Koran and tear from the back the plain path to write somethin u would kill me abi, i have torn from several of my bibles, to give people to write numbers and have agreed to tearing that part of my bible, i have several bibles so whats the big deal, my whole intention is to demystify the book but alas you can't see it.

Well as i said its not an issue of christain vs Muslim, please i really am not bothered what people choose to believe but when its beginning to affect other lives, then i want to understand the ideology. So please if its in the hadiyth or the other book can you provide the text of where in any Islam literature it is there.

I have had several friends that their parents were extremely rich in the north and during a riot all they had was burnt to ashes,hotels, all sorts of investments but back then it was religious as well as political but clearly the political undertone has little or nothing to do with it, it might well be in the tenets of Islam.

NB: am not asking u to explain just provide the text from the hadyth or where it is.

@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus


Thanks for the post too. Re-posting ke, where did u see that? I have not asked you before and that is the more reason I told you that I have shifted partially from the questions I have been asking you.

That being the case, let me offer you one piece of advice: please spend more time reading the Bible for yourself, and less time plagiarizing the misconceptions of other Muslim websites against Christianity, particularly those of answering-christianity.com. The reason why people love-vendor, plagiarize and propagate abstractions from others is because they cannot think for themselves. Besides, it really does not tell well of your person to recycle such impetuosity and pass them off as your own, unless you're trying to convince readers on the Forum that you really can't think through issues by yourself.

babs787:

The motive for my questions is just to bring it you that Jesus was never killed.

Oh yes, He was. Not only so, He rose from the dead before ascending to heaven. It is irrelevant that the Qur'an denies this; but then, the Qur'an is unable to substantiate its denials.

Cheers.

nferyn:

Yes, apart from the Bible and some later date Christian apologetic writings, there are no records of Jesus' supposed crucifiction. All references to the life and deeds of the historical Christ are very mirky historiography.

uhmn, sorry, if there are records only in the bible and other apologetic books, does that disqualify it from being a historical event simply because other books didnt record it?

has everybody in history been documented by history books? lets even narrow it; have all crucifixions in history been recorded? if you don't find mention of christ's death in certain books you are more inclined to believe does that change anything? i am more likely to believe the Bible because it has been through the most scrutiny through the ages and has held through. isnt that enough?

the bible is clear that the romans and the jews tried to submerge information about christ's death (and ressurection). doesn't that suffice to explain your statement. and besides, josephus (a noted jewish historian) has references to Jesus, i don't know if he talked about his crucifixion though but that is inconsequential.