Enigma:


This is double-speak to avoid facing the truth. OK, I simplify it --- answer these two/four questions:

1. When Jesus turned water into wine did He do it by His power as God; OR did He do it as a man "using and operating by faith"?

2. When Jesus raised the son of the widow at Nain from the dead, did He do it by His power as God; OR did He do it as a man "using and operating by faith."

KunleOshob:

Examples like this is why we should start naming names and exposing these criminals they are leading too many people to destruction with their false/evil teachings.

Sick Healers? It's Not Working For Them Either!

Probably the saddest "cut" of all is the FACT that the majority of what the Word of Faith/Prophetic Movement charismaniacs teach does not even work in their own sorry lives. I do not deny that the Lord our God is a Healer - - - but He does so according to His sovereign will. We, His children DO NOT command healing to "be." The people cited below all (with the exception of the Wimber's) teach that healing is the right of all God's children, that we can speak creative miracles into existence, that we can live in such an "anointed" manner as to NEVER even get sick!
I grew up being taught "practice what you preach" which is a pretty good philosophy to live by. What I have come to learn after years in the charismatic movement is that what the majority of the international leaders are teaching does not even work for them.
What is also interesting is all the people below DID NOT RUN TO A BENNY HINN MIRACLE CRUSADE. Nor did they RUN TO ORAL ROBERTS. Why not? could it be that KNEW, these guys did not have any real power to heal? They went to medical doctors to get "fixed." None of these folks got a "miracle" or received "divine healing" directly from the hand of God. They did what every person with common sense would do, got professional help.
Lastly, it is interesting to me to note that almost all of the people cited below fall into the category of Word of Faith teachers - - - and statistically their cancer rate is off the scale! These are ministers who know one another, teach the same things, and travel in the same ministerial circles . . .and cancer is a common thread among them. It would not be unusual for all of these WOF people to be gathered in one room - - - yet all of their families have been struck with cancer.
According to their teaching on divine healing, the authority of the believer, the name of Jesus, the atonement - this should not be and yet it is. Even if these not-so-mighty preachers want to claim this is nothing but an all out attack from Satan - how do they explain the following:
a) How did Satan get a foothold? (I know these folks were not confessing sickness or disease)
b) Since you teach complete authority over Satan, than even in an attack they should get total victory. (Going to the doctor is not total victory, it is a sign of weak or missing faith in their minds)

Divine Healing That Wasn't
(keep in mind most of these folks teach it is God’s will to heal you every time you are sick)

Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .

E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.

John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston.

Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. "If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.

Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.

I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ." The Tongue p. 43.

I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.

John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.

Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)

"You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."

Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.

Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.

Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim. Hagin's sister died from cancer. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.

Daisy Osborn, T. L. Osborn's wife also died of cancer, yet T. L. is supposed to be an internationally recognized "healing" evangelist. . .but there was no healing for his own wife!

Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?

These people teach that it is God’s will to heal His children every time they come to Him in "faith." They also teach that we can "have what we say." Yet when they get sick what do they do? They go to the doctor just like the rest of us. None of the above received a "divine healing" or a "miracle" by the Biblical standard. In fact, several of these fine "Christians" berate other people who get sick and say it is due to their "lack of faith." However, when they or their family members get sick it is always an "attack of the devil," trying to stop their important Kingdom work.

My point is simple - what they preach does not work. Why not? Because their teaching is not Biblical and thus God does not back up their doctrine.

How Do They Explain The Following Text?

Deut. 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

I have heard many WOF teachers "preach" this text in the context of "Divine Life" which refers to NEVER getting sick at all. The fact is Kenneth Hagin Sr. and Junior both wear glasses, as does Oral Roberts, Marilyn Hickey, Charles Capps, and Joyce Meyers (to name a few). NONE of the Pentecostal/Charismatic teachers of divine healing/health/life have ever lived to be 120 years old either. The fact is their eyesight fails with age, like everyone else’s, but this does not stop them from preaching their false doctrines regarding healing.

How Do They Explain?

Katherine Kuhlman - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from heart disease in Tulsa OK, Oral Roberts could not heal her!
A.A. Allen - an acknowledged divine healer and exorcist DIED from alcohol & drug abuse.
Aimee Semple McPherson - an acknowledge divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose. Why was she taking pills in the first place? Wasn't the "peace" of God enough for her?
Jack Coe - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from disease.
John G. Lake - DIED of a stroke in 1935. He is held up as a great "healer" and miracle worker.
Gordon Lindsey- DIED either of a stroke or heart condition. Yet he propagated the Healing Revival of the lates 1940's and early 1950's. Why?
Ruth Heflin - DIED from cancer, she brought the gold-dust fraud to America and promoted Silvania's ministry to her dying day.

These people were leaders in the field of divine healing, they allegedly got "results" and yet they too died from medical problems. How can this be? Why couldn't their fellow faith-healers get them healed? The answer? - Because NONE of these folks EVER HEALED ANYBODY! They were frauds and con-men/women who DID NOT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACHED. When the chips were down where did they go? To the next tent meeting or miracle crusade? HECK NO! They ran to their private highly paid physicians and surgeons!

Morality
(these folks claim(ed) a close walk with Jesus daily, many claim to see Him regularly in open visions, some claim to be His prophets, all claim a close intimate walk with Christ)

1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies, uses unscrupulous means to garner millions from God's "gullible."

2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)

3. W. V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.

4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.

5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.

6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).

7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.

8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.

9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?

These ministers represent just a portion of the charismaniac stew available on television. Each one of them is far more a servant of their own greed and lust for money & fame than they are a servant of Jesus Christ. Each of them promotes a wide range of heretical concepts always backed up with a plea to send the your money.

The problem is that these (and others) claim a high degree of sanctification. Each claims to either have met with Jesus personally, seen Him in an open vision, been visited by angels, etc. . .Yet with only a cursory look into their personally lives and lifestyles one quickly sees how fraudulent their claims are.

Some might want to say "these people do not represent the movement" or that I have "stacked the deck." The sad TRUTH of the matter is that these people are KEY PEOPLE in the movement. Some of these are the acknowledged LEADERS. Since what they promote does not work in their own lives why should anyone else believe them?
Copyright © 1998-2002 Robert S. Liichow All rights reserved.

mba emeka:

Hebrew 2:14

forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same: that through DEATH he might destroy him that had the power of DEATH that is the devil:

Hebrew 2:16

for verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Joagbaje:


It is very simple, When Jesus turned water to wine,healed the sick raised the dead, he did them as a man by the power of the holyghost. You have to remember Jesus didnt do any miracle until he received the (empowerment) the holyghost.

Joagbaje:

I dont know what you are getting at. He did the works by faith and the power of the spirit.

aletheia:

Just five questions sir.
1. When Elijah prayed, did it rain that very day or not?
2. When Jesus healed that blind man at Bethsaida, was it that very day he regained sight or not?
3. When Peter healed the lame man at the beautiful gate, was it that very day he walked or not?
4. When Paul healed the crippled man at Lystra, was it that very day he walked or not?
5. If any of you can give one example from scripture of a miracle occurring not on the same day but at  some time after the encounter with Jesus, the Apostles or even the old testament prophets, then I will concede the argument. Please note I said miracles not prophecies.

Enigma:

What I'm getting at is that you are WRONG, and it is indeed heresy, to say that Jesus was just "a man who operated by faith".

OK here are some other simple questions.


1. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He God or not?

2. When Jesus was born, was He God or not?

3. When Jesus was aged 12, was He God or not?

4. At age 30 just before His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

5. Immediately after His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

6. When He did all His miracles, was Jesus God or not?

aletheia:

^^^
Evasive. Pastor Agbaje will neither answer yes nor no to those questions even if his life depends on it. So let me lend a hand.

Joagbaje:

Mr Aletheia . Point of correction, I am not evasive, I have answered the question twice.

Jesus will always be God. But the miracles of Jesus were not done as God, but by the power of the spirit in the man Jesus.

His question is not clear to me , if he tells me where he's going I will hit the nail on the head.

Now This your WOF matter, If you ask if I believe in Some teaching by kenneth  Hagin, EW Kenyon. I believe in many of their teachings because they teach on faith and the new creation, Does that make me WOFa ? If it does , glory!

This teachings contains deep truths and that is what every Christian need to hear.

Now you find some individuals in bondage of ignorance ,who dont have the the infilling of the holyghost attack those who have the spirit.

I have seen some of these sites before , and I wonder " do we still have people as ignorant in this age?" You should get to study materials on faith yourself. If study on faith is what makes a man WOF in your definition Then I will be glad to say I am.

aletheia:

@Joagbaje & mba emeka

Biblical divine healing versus other types of healing

There are basically five types of healing in the world today.
1. Biblical Divine Healing,
2. Natural Healing,
3. Medicinal/Medical Healing,
4. Psychological Healing, and
5. Paranormal/Demonic Healing.



Biblical Divine Healing
True Biblical Divine Healing is[b] immediate, lasting, verifiable and all the glory goes to Jesus Christ.[/b]

(a) Immediate
All the examples of Biblical Divine Healing in the New Testament were accomplished by the power of God instantaneously. They were not done by the person (with the exception of Jesus Christ Himself) but were done through the person by the Holy Spirit. God is the only One who can do a creative healing (hence why these false healers start stammering when you ask them why aren't amputees being healed today). All other healings are natural or lying wonders, but only God can create. Healings in the NT never took a long time. They were always accomplished the same day, and in most cases were instantaneous.
(b) Lasting
All Biblical Divine Healings were lasting. They lasted for the rest of the person's natural life. They did not wear off. The person that was healed did not have to come back for repeated treatments or healings.
(c) Verifiable
All Biblical Divine Healings were verifiable. The NT healings were obvious healings. The most obvious were recorded as proof. Nearly half the incidents of healings in the NT that are descriptively recorded are of the most obvious kind, completely verifiable, beyond question. The people who were healed were well known in the community, in fact they were known by their ailment. The NT incidents of obvious healings were used as proof, as a sign verifying who Jesus Christ was and the validity of the ministry and the authority of the Apostles.
A few examples will suffice
Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.
Matthew 8:3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy.
Matthew 8:8, 13 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Due to space and time constraints, I will list some verses and the ailments cured.
Matthew 8:14-15 - fever
Matthew 9:21-22  - 12 years bleeding
Matthew 11:5  - blind, lame, leprosy, the deaf, the dead
Matthew 12:10 - a man with a shriveled hand
Matthew 15:30 - the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute
Matthew 21:14 - the blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them.
Mark 1:42 - leprosy
Mark 5:23 - dying daughter
Mark 10:52 - public figure known to be blind
Luke 7:7 - dead son
Luke 7:21 - diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, blind.
Luke 8:50 - daughter dead
Luke 13:10-13 - crippled for eighteen years
Luke 14:4 - dropsy (heart failure)
Luke 17:15 - 10 lepers
John 5:9-10 - an invalid for thirty-eight years
John 11:1 - Lazarus raised from the dead
Acts 3:16 - crippled from birth
Acts 8:7 - paralytics and cripples
Acts 9:40 - dead woman
Acts 14:9 - a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked.
Acts 28:8 - fever and dysentery
If you would deign to study these scriptures, you will note the immediacy of all the healings. Furthermore the diseases listed were incurable at that time of history.

(d) All Glory to God
All the glory goes to God for Biblical Divine Healing because it is impossible for anything or anyone to effect Biblical Divine Healing except God Himself. Divine healing can occur at any time or any place. God can heal in response to the prayers of the righteous (James 5:16) in answer to the prayers of the elders in a local church (James 5:14) or simply because God wants to heal someone. I see no evidence in Scripture AT ALL of divine healing occurring as a sign to justify false teachers or false prophets. I believe it is possible for a person to receive divine healing anywhere. It is even remotely possible for God to heal someone for His own purposes at a meeting of a false teacher, but in that case it is also a test and the responsibility of that Christian to understand that the Lord did the healing and he is commanded to get away from false teachers as Jesus and the Apostles told us to do.

To definitively prove that a healing is a Biblical Divine Healing today. . .that healing would have to be
(1) of an incurable condition
(2) obvious
(3) verifiable
(4) a problem well known to many people
(5) immediate
(6) lasting and
(7) ascribed alone to the glory of God Who accomplished it by His omnipotent power alone.
If it does not meet ALL these criteria it should not be used to prove it is a type of Biblical Divine Healing.

As the LORD permits, I will post later concerning the other types of healing.

In conclusion. . .

aletheia:

Healings in the NT never took a long time. They were always accomplished the same day, and in most cases were instantaneous.

Due to space and time constraints, I will list some verses and the ailments cured.

. . . [skip]. . .

Luke 14:4 - dropsy (heart failure)

. . . [skip]. . .

Acts 28:8 - fever and dysentery
If you would deign to study these scriptures, you will note the immediacy of all the healings. Furthermore the diseases listed were incurable at that time of history.

To definitively prove that a healing is a Biblical Divine Healing today. . .that healing would have to be
(1) of an incurable condition
(2) obvious
(3) verifiable
(4) a problem well known to many people
(5) immediate
(6) lasting and
(7) ascribed alone to the glory of God Who accomplished it by His omnipotent power alone.
If it does not meet ALL these criteria it should not be used to prove it is a type of Biblical Divine Healing.

aletheia:

^^^
Evasive. Pastor Agbaje will neither answer yes nor no to those questions even if his life depends on it. So let me lend a hand.

Jesus' Two Natures

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully God and fully man. At the incarnation He added to His divine nature the nature of man. Thus He has two natures: divine and human. He is both God and man at the same time. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Heb.1:3). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
This is another mystery we have to accept by faith, but we need to understand its significance or we can end up believing a false gospel.
The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":

[table]
[tr][td]GOD[/td][td]MAN[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He is worshipped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)[/td][td]He worshipped the Father (John 17)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2)[/td][td]He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8 )[/td][td]He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)[/td][td]He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)[/td][td]He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He knew all things (John 21:17)[/td][td]He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]He gives eternal life (John 10:28)[/td][td]He died (Rom. 5:[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)[/td][td]He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)[/td][/tr]
[/table]

when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

Deep Sight:

When will you stop peddling these unbiblical and nonsensical lies? Can you not see what you have written above merely reveals the unsustainable contradictions within that pagan dogma? Did Jesus not make clear AT EVERY OPPURTUNITY that he was NOT God? ? ?

viaro:


* Did Jesus ever anywhere clearly say that He was NOT God?

If He did say so at any time at all, would it make sense to you that He Himself
claimed the very same honour that men render to the Father in John 5:23?

Deep Sight:

Did Jesus ever anywhere clearly say that he was God?

I cannot account for his delusions in claiming such an honour.

What is clear is that he stated the following -

"Do not call me good, only God is good"

"The Father is greater than I"

"OF THAT DAY AND HOUR NO MAN KNOWS. . .NOT EVEN THE SON , .BUT ONLY THE FATHER. . ." - CLEARLY SHOWING THAT HE LACKED OMNISCIENCE - A KEY ATTRIBUTE OF GOD.

And many many more; including shamefully petitioning himself in Gethsemane to avert an event that he himself (as God) had pre-destined. What comedy.

You can spend your weekend creating artsy somersaults to once again escape the BRUTALLY CLEAR words of your own carpenter God. . . it is afterall your hobby to call him a liar - given that you have never accepted any of his clear words as being true.

As for me I am weary of it all - we have argued this too many times anyway; and it will also amount to derailing the thread.

I cannot account for his delusions in claiming such an honour

As for me I am weary of it all - we have argued this too many times anyway; and it will also amount to derailing the thread

viaro:

^^^ Where in all of those did Jesus ever say that He was not God? If you had no verse, simply say so and stop making yourself further shallow.

Deep Sight:

Here - the word's of the Jewish Rabbi you worship - knock yourself out denying each and every one of them: as i stated earlier your favourite pastime seems to be calling your God a liar since you reject ALL his words such as these. . .

1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”