butterflyl1on:
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You seem not to get it at all. A painter of what you call a messy painting SEES beauty and order in the mess you see.

1. You are not in the mind of the painter

2. You never influenced the painters decisions for colour, depth and pattern.

3. Much like science is yet to understand less than 1% of our universe so are you unable to understand why the painter chose to see order from what you term as a mish mash.

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I read the OP and my question is valid for this discussion. At what point did order/purpose begin to be seen and become well defined? Do we still see chaos today despite the end products which are in sync with man's needs emanating from what you term as chaos?




Exactly! It's what your untrained eye and your untrained perceptions see and what you see is what you have said but can what you see deny end result?





Again what you say here is solely based on what YOU see and not from the viewpoint of the painter. If I were to show you the schematics of a skyscraper all you would see would not make sense to you as an untrained eye. It would look chaotic but the designer only sees beauty, order and purpose behind his schematics which your untrained eye calls messy and cannot make sense of.


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Wrong again. There is no unordered system that isn't designed. The whole reason behind design is order. Why then do we design when we could simply have scribbled rubbish and let it run. Order is the whole purpose for design.





Again you call star formation a random process simply because you are not the painter. Do you realise that our sun is A Star which was allegedly formed by this same nebulae? How then was the sun "randomly" formed by this chaotic nebulae yet the end product is that it helps sustain life and our ecosystem here on earth? How would a chaotic nebulae somehow be able to achieve a feat such as giving us what we cannot do without on this earth in order to live? I keep asking that you look at the end product from what you claim was chaos and ask yourself how this chaos was able to produce purpose.




Purpose is a necessity! Purpose is all there is!



Your untrained and unexposed eye still speaking here.





I do not know where you saw me say order and purpose were the same thing. However where you see purpose, you see order. Where you see order then purpose for this order is inevitable.
I cannot continue telling you this.

you actually know what you are typing .good reply.

vaxx:
you actually know what you are typing .good reply.

Thanks boss

bloodofthelamb:
SIR, ANYTHING THAT HAS A BEGINING MUST HAVE SOMEONE THAT STARTED IT...SCIENTIST HAS PROVED THAT THE WORLD BEGAN FROM FROM SOMEWHERE...YOU AND I CANNOT PROVE THAT GOD AND HIS SON JESUS HAD A BEGINING POINT.

you first have to prove God exists before we talk about a 'beginning point'

gabe:
you first have to prove God exists before we talk about a 'beginning point'

Nature tell it all. proving it again is a waste of time. it is now left for you to prove to the believer that nature is lying.


before you reply. what is God According to you. supposing I say johnydon is not a female, I should know how females look like so what or who is God.

gabe:
you first have to prove God exists before we talk about a 'beginning point'

HIS ART WORK IS ENOUGH PROVE...HIS DESIGN IS ENOUGH PROVE...JUST LIKE A MOULDED CLAY POT SPEAKS OF A POTTER...IF I TELL YOU I AM AN ENGINEER, HOW WILL YOU KNOW THAT I AM WHAT I SAID I AM? SIMPLY BY MY WORK

gabe:
you first have to prove God exists before we talk about a 'beginning point'

DON'T BELIEVE SOMEONE BASE ONLY ON WORDS...BELIEVE THEM BECAUSE OF THERE WORK

bloodofthelamb:
DON'T BELIEVE SOMEONE BASE ONLY ON WORDS...BELIEVE THEM BECAUSE OF THERE WORK

because of their work u say, why do u believe d bible wen its written in words

Samsimple:

because of their work u say, why do u believe d bible wen its written in words

THE BIBLE LED ME TO MY SAVIOUR AND GOD CHRIST JESUS THE RIGHTEOUS...THE BIBLE IS A SIGNPOST TO JESUS.THE BIBLE WAS COMPILED AND WRITTEN SO THAT WE MAY BELIEVE IN HIM(THE LOVER OF OUR SOUL)...I PRAY YOU GET IT...AMEN

felixomor:

I have.
Its zero.

but the cosmos now is like a fried egg or a mashed one?

What if this universe was created that way, God took some cosmic egg and smashed them together and this is the result - would you say God designed the universe or not?

johnydon22:


but the cosmos now is like a fried egg or a mashed one?

What if this universe was created that way, God took some cosmic egg and smashed them together and this is the result - would you say God designed the universe or not?

You are the one talking about chaos aka the mashed egg approach. Felixomor is not! He supports design.

So based on this you are asking the wrong questions. Your question should rather be directed at yourself. Was the universe created the way one would mash together eggs?

johnydon22:


but the cosmos now is like a fried egg or a mashed one?

What if this universe was created that way, God took some cosmic egg and smashed them together and this is the result - would you say God designed the universe or not?

Nah, you still have not carried out the experiment
Do it and then we can compare that with the beautiful universe we have.

butterflyl1on:


You are the one talking about chaos aka the mashed egg approach. Felixomor is not! He supports design.

So based on this you are asking the wrong questions. Your question should rather be directed at yourself. Was the universe created the way one would mash together eggs?

felixomor:

Nah, you still have not carried out the experiment
Do it and then we can compare that with the beautiful universe we have.

OH GOD!!!

bloodofthelamb:
THE BIBLE LED ME TO MY SAVIOUR AND GOD CHRIST JESUS THE RIGHTEOUS...THE BIBLE IS A SIGNPOST TO JESUS.THE BIBLE WAS COMPILED AND WRITTEN SO THAT WE MAY BELIEVE IN HIM(THE LOVER OF OUR SOUL)...I PRAY YOU GET IT...AMEN

sounds convincing

johnydon22:


OH GOD!!!

Do not act shocked! Felixomor was trying to use your idea of chaos bringing order to speak to you by using the egg mash up example.

He wasn't actually speaking for himself but for you and wanted you to see where such an experiment would lead you as a proponent of chaos being behind the universe.

hopefulLandlord:

sounds convincing

ALL GLORY TO JESUS AND HIM ALONE FOREVER...AMEN

johnydon22:


OH GOD!!!

Hahaha

They Yaff finally frustrated you abi

Anyways, you're really trying

hopefulLandlord:


sounds convincing

adepeter2027:

Hahaha

They Yaff finally frustrated you abi

Anyways, you're really trying

You are talking (A) and they are replying with (Z) with (A) in it.. Anyway i am sure the OP is coherent enough, make i no go tire myself out going in circles abeg

Nice Thread and Educative as well

I think Argument on design would make more sense if you argue it with a deist and not a theist......A theist can just formulate anything and in their mind, it'll make sense why? because their God operates on magic so anything can flow if their God is not logical why do we expect their argument to be?

johnydon22:


You are talking (A) and they are replying with (Z) with (A) in it.. Anyway i am sure the OP is coherent enough, make i no go tire myself out going in circles abeg

You are the one mixing up everything bro. Nobody is replying you A with Z. Be quick on your feet and let your brain sharpen up enough to follow your own discussion and those of others.

This thread is simply showing you did not think it through before opening it. You simply frustrated yourself via a not well thought out OP so do not blame anyone for that

You cannot win them all can you?

My ban is over. Main moniker is back baby

butterflylion:
My ban is over. Main moniker is back baby

Which is your main moniker? I never knew you had another moniker?

701ecilana:

Which is your main moniker? I never knew you had another moniker?

I was banned yesterday so had to register as butterflyl1on as an alternative. The difference between that one and this one is the number 1 in lion

butterflylion:


I was banned yesterday so had to register as butterflyl1on as an alternative. The difference between that one and this one is the number 1 in lion

Okay.

johnydon22:
The second question is;
DOES LIVING ENTITIES FOLLOW SAME LAWS AS INANIMATE ENTITIES?

Let us save ourselves the trouble, the short answer is NO.
The one thing that separates a living cell from non-living things is that living cells have the ability to self arrange and replicate.
Since living cells can self arrange and non-living cells can’t in what way do you judge them under the same set of rules?

Very nice write up. Just a minor correction. Non living cells can, and do self-arrange, using only the electronic properties of component atoms. (See crystal lattices)

DoctorAlien:
Can an infinite task ever be done or completed? If, in order to reach a certain end, infinitely many steps had to precede it, could the end ever be reached? Of course not—not even in an infinite time. For an infinite time would be unending, just as the steps would be. In other words, no end would ever be reached. The task would—could—never be completed. But what about the step just before the end? Could that point
ever be reached? Well, if the task is really infinite, then an infinity of steps must also have preceded it. And therefore the step just before the end could also never be reached. But then neither could the step just before that one. In fact, no step in
the sequence could be reached, because an infinity of steps must always have preceded any step; must always have been gone through one by one before it. The problem comes from supposing that an infinite sequence could ever reach, by temporal succession, any point at all.

Your infinite time argument does make sense, but only if you consider a linear process. An infinitely circular process may yet circumvent completely, the problem posed by linear infinity. Theoretical arguments exist for such a cyclic process.

johnydon22:


OH GOD!!!

Loooooooooool

Can any good argument ever come from kingebukas cabal

Johnydon22 you are yet to address a lot of the incoherent issues you raised which I countered. Let's start with this one

Purpose is a child of the human mind. And if we judge from that 99.99% of the universe won't have a purpose.

So this part is not my business

.

My response

You "assume" that 99% of the universe serves no purpose when mankind is even yet to explore and experience 0.00000000000000000000000001% of it. How did you arrive at such a summation?

And also this one below

1. nebulae are very random gasses therefore there are no apparent order [it's just as ordered as a smoke coming out of a chimney] it's random oo

2.star formation is a chaotic process

My response

Again you call star formation a random process simply because you are not the painter. Do you realise that our sun is A Star which was allegedly formed by this same nebulae? How then was the sun "randomly" formed by this chaotic nebulae yet the end product is that it helps sustain life and our ecosystem here on earth? How would a chaotic nebulae somehow be able to achieve a feat such as giving us what we cannot do without on this earth in order to live? I keep asking that you look at the end product from what you claim was chaos and ask yourself how this chaos was able to produce purpose.

You said " if you read a response that shows ignorance of the OP you will not respond to it and then some crappy talk about condescending too low when you have been the one setting the bar too low and making us condescend to your level. Be honoured and not arrogant!

I await your response.

butterflylion:
Johnydon22 you are yet to address a lot of the incoherent issues you raised which I countered. Let's start with this one

On my last post i promised to ignore posts that are consonant with my OP, you see i cannot argue at someone's inability to fully grasp the language of a particular post.


.

My response

I am quite certain that my response to this was, purpose is a child of the human mind, if you can't understand that basic statement i cannot help you

And also this one below


My response

You said " if you read a response that shows ignorance of the OP you will not respond to it and then some crappy talk about condescending too low when you have been the one setting the bar too low and making us condescend to your level. Be honoured and not arrogant!

I await your response.

from my post

"Kepler observed the heavens on many nights, the most many of the times and he noticed moon craters, perfect depressed circles on the surface of the moon, a circle is a geometrical perfection so how could such perfect design come naturally?

Based on what he is used to here on earth, circle can only come from intelligence, such precise perfections cannot be attributed to random accidental and chaotic chance of natural causality.

So his argument was: Such circular structures connoted intelligent beings on the moon and these craters were structures purposely built by this intelligent civilization.

Keplers argument is just as valid as the argument of design, nature lacks what it takes to make such perfect geometry, it can never be as a result of the chaotic chance that rules natural causality.

Or is it?

Turns out Kepler was also wrong, the moon craters were not a result of intelligence as a matter of fact there are as a result of accidental, random, uncharted chaos.

A great rock of intense speed [meteors, asteroids] hitting the surface of the moon would create a local explosion perfectly symmetrical in every direction thus giving rise to perfect circular depressions.

It was not a result of intelligent design as kepler thought, it was starkly the raw opposite."


had it been you read the post or at least paid attention to it you wouldn't bring up the chaos cannot beget beauty mumbo jumbo, this is why i chose to ignore further posts. I no longer have the patience to keep on bickering endlessly when it doesn't sink in. I am way past that time.


This question about nebulae and stars only betrays your naivety of astronomy and these naivety used as an argument is grossly misplaced, i won't argue your inability to grasp natural process. I can only keep going in circles and getting no where

johnydon22:
On my last post i promised to ignore posts that are consonant with my OP, you see i cannot argue at someone's inability to fully grasp the language of a particular post.


.

I am quite certain that my response to this was, purpose is a child of the human mind, if you can't understand that basic statement i cannot help you




You said " if you read a response that shows ignorance of the OP you will not respond to it and then some crappy talk about condescending too low when you have been the one setting the bar too low and making us condescend to your level. Be honoured and not arrogant!

I await your response.
from my post

"Kepler observed the heavens on many nights, the most many of the times and he noticed moon craters, perfect depressed circles on the surface of the moon, a circle is a geometrical perfection so how could such perfect design come naturally?

Based on what he is used to here on earth, circle can only come from intelligence, such precise perfections cannot be attributed to random accidental and chaotic chance of natural causality.

So his argument was: Such circular structures connoted intelligent beings on the moon and these craters were structures purposely built by this intelligent civilization.

Keplers argument is just as valid as the argument of design, nature lacks what it takes to make such perfect geometry, it can never be as a result of the chaotic chance that rules natural causality.

Or is it?

Turns out Kepler was also wrong, the moon craters were not a result of intelligence as a matter of fact there are as a result of accidental, random, uncharted chaos.

A great rock of intense speed [meteors, asteroids] hitting the surface of the moon would create a local explosion perfectly symmetrical in every direction thus giving rise to perfect circular depressions.

It was not a result of intelligent design as kepler thought, it was starkly the raw opposite."


had it been you read the post or at least paid attention to it you wouldn't bring up the chaos cannot beget beauty mumbo jumbo, this is why i chose to ignore further posts. I no longer have the patience to keep on bickering endlessly when it doesn't sink in. I am way past that time.


This question about nebulae and stars only betrays your naivety of astronomy and these naivety used as an argument is grossly misplaced, i won't argue your inability to grasp natural process. I can only keep going in circles and getting no where

When you have nothing intelligent to say your method is to try and make the other person look less intelligent

Let me recover from the mauling of Nigeria by ghana first then we go talk.

butterflylion:


When you have nothing intelligent to say your method is to try and make the other person look less intelligent

Let me recover from the mauling of Nigeria by ghana first then we go talk.

#sighs this puerile behaviour is what i am supposed to put up with, phheeew i will pass.

johnydon22:


#sighs this puerile behaviour is what i am supposed to put up with, phheeew i will pass.

I have been putting up with yours all along with your subtle jabs at intelligence and lack of understanding. I know the trick Johny

Not everyone is gullible and cannot read between the lines. Like I said, let me recover, I dey come.

butterflylion:


I have been putting up with yours all along with your subtle jabs at intelligence and lack of understanding. I know the trick Johny

Not everyone is gullible and cannot read between the lines. Like I said, let me recover, I dey come.

k.