davidylan:

Interestingly i do subscribe to that interpretation of Daniel chapter 2 for the following reasons:

1. Daniel correctly identifies the various symbols on that statue as kingdoms. Infact he makes it pretty easy for us to understand the interpretation of this dream.

2. The head of Gold is identified as babylon . . . Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for t[b]he God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.[/b]
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

At this time, Nebuchadnezzar was the ruler of the vast Babylonian empire.

3. Daniel says the second kingdom as the bosom and arms of silver that will come after the fall of the Babylonian empire - Dan 2:39. Not surprisingly this is identified as the Medo-Persian empire that overthrew Nebuchanezzar's son, Belshazar.
Dan 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

4. Dan 2:39 also says the kingdom of brass will come directly after the Medo-Persian empire . . . this empire is identified as the Grecian empire under Alexander the great which overthrew the Medo-Persian empire in 550BC (not sure of the dates now).

5. The legs of Iron is the Roman empire which came following the death of Alexander the great and the subsequent decline of the Grecian empire.

6. The toes are made up of partly iron (this indicates it would probably morph from the remnants of the Roman empire) and clay.
- I would wager that the toes made of partly iron and clay signifies the rise of the Anglo-American empire. Follow the fall of Rome, the British empire took over and exists till today partly in alliance with the US (the only super power left on earth).

Interesting and indeed accurate analyses to a very large extent. but it still leaves us with questions asking. . .what next? , . .

Why did God give us the book of Revelation then? back to the title of the thread: what is the purpose of giving us those prophecies if we cannot even understand them?

Hi again. God gave humanity Revelation so that they will take from it what is of spiritual benefit to them. I have previously alluded that some sections of the book are within the conceptional capacity of human beings and it is these sections that are of benefit to man. Man can with the grace of God understand these sections. But there are many parts of it that he cannot understand because it deals with spiritual and in some cases divine events clothed in earthly words. When man comes to such sections, he meets a brick wall and no matter how hard he tries, he or she will not succed. One of our problems is that we as a specie always think that we are the focus of attention and whatever God does, it is for our purpose. Let me say and I must emphasise that this is my perception and not drawn from the other books of the bible. The book of Revelation and the pictures that it unfolds deals with the entire cosmos, not just humans, thus angels have sections of it that will benefit them, higher spirits have sections of it that will benefit them, human spirits (us) on earth have sections of it that will benefit them and even human spirits living in other universes have sections of it that will benefit them, etc. Each specie takes from Revealation as much as it is capable based on its nature and origin. One evidence that human spirits often try to interpret sections that they are incapable of understanding can be seen with the various millenial groups whose prediction of endtime have never been accurate even for once. Stay blessed.

noetic16:

1. the case of the rapture. The biblical description of the rapture by the Lord is too "unclothed". if two people walk and one suddenly disappears, there would be global panic and many would know that the rapture has taken place. . . . .and this IMO does not convey the message Jesus was trying to teach. He was IMO simply talking about the unexpected nature of the rapture (and His subsequent return) and the context does not convey that the world would know of the rapture.

Interesting . . . is it possible that the world will be unaware of the rapture? The parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25) gives us a clue that it will be obvious to those left behind.

noetic16:

2. the Anti-Christ. who really is the anti-Christ? is he a person, a nation, group of nations or an institution. many people have been labelled anti-Christ. but yet there are billions of anti-Christs walking all over this planet,  . . . .my take is that God has a far deeper message to us concerning the anti-Christ. do I know this message. . . no I dont.

The bible makes it expressly clear who the PERSON of the anti-christ is . . . 2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

this is not a description of a "group" but that of a man. He will call himself God . . . and cause all to worship him.

noetic16:

3. 666. No one would willingly collect the 666 mark. . . . .so it might come in the form of a necessary innovation. . . .a necessity we just cannot do without,  like the internet, our debit or credit cards. oyster cards and many other necessities.
would anyone willingly receive the 666 mark, knowing fully well that it is a 666 mark? regardless of whether they are xtians or not, the fact that it is the much mentioned 666 is a bad selling point for the anti-Christ.

This is one that actually defies my understanding.

noetic16:

4. End of the world. when exactly is the end of the world? . . . . .my take is the world like all other creations are coming to an end. . . but [b]we are not yet at the very end. [/b]I might be wrong. . but the end all persons should be looking out for is the one stated in hebrews 9:27.
This should be the end that should concern every individual.

We are there already . . . 2 Tim 3

noetic16:

5 the judgement of God. many times many preachers try to prick on the emotions of people to say that certain wicked persons in society would receive judgements from God with immediate effect. I have learnt that this is FALSE. The persecution xtians suffer usually has the signature of God on it. . .largely within the plan of God. . that explains what was stated in psalm 34:19 that "many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers Him from them all" . . . . .I was once being persecuted at work. . . I prayed about it, I was going to confront my managers. . . guess what God told me . . , He said "do not confront anyone, see me working through them to make u a better person". . . . .This singular persecution turned out for good and changed my understanding of events.

Good point.

noetic16:

Rightly so. . ,  and this is largely due to my personal spiritual experiences. . . . .man has little or no influence over these things.
The ability to correctly understand these prophecies is on its own a gift. . . . .the ability to decipher what spiritual season we are in now is another gift on its own.

Lol, na wah oh. True talk.
 

Take for instance Paul talks about the manifestation of the sons of God (romans 8:19). . . .John talks about those who Jesus gave the power to become the sons of God (John 1:12) and Paul also talks about those who truly are the sons of God (romans 8:14).
So we know from (john1:12 and romans 8:14) those who Paul was talking about in romans 8:19.

A literal deduction from the above is that the "adopted" sons of God through Christ Jesus would excel right here on earth. how would they excel? what does it mean to excel?. . .would they hold positions of influence? would they be financially bouyant? would they become very powerful like Joseph or Daniel? would they become world leaders?
How does this prophecy by Paul reflect on the gospel of the many thieves and charlatans in the church whose only message is prosperity? could they be right after all? . . .when is this season Paul was talking about?. . . . .it is definitely before the anti-Christ.

From Paul's prophecy.  . . . .it is obvious that the sons of God would excel exceptionally. This means that perhaps we are not yet in the season of the anti-Christ, or in the purported last days.

This subject can be an entire thread onto its own. I think the current "WOF vs NON-WOF" threads are currently wrestling with elements of your above quote.

of course I might be wrong. . . .but who exactly can tell as to what spiritual season we are in? there are too many prophetic revelations in the bible. . . .that have no chronological order. It is in lieu of this that I believe that the best shot is not to try to interpret these prophecies with mere human theological knowledge. . . .these interpretations do more harm than good. innocent people have been ignorantly labelled anti-Christ.

And I think this is a very reasonable approach, erring on the side of caution.

I do not speak as a spiritual authority. . .but neither do I subscribe to many end-time notions.

1. the case of the rapture. The biblical description of the rapture by the Lord is too "unclothed". if two people walk and one suddenly disappears, there would be global panic and many would know that the rapture has taken place. . . . .and this IMO does not convey the message Jesus was trying to teach. He was IMO simply talking about the unexpected nature of the rapture (and His subsequent return) and the context does not convey that the world would know of the rapture.

Hmm, interesting. I need to go back and look at those verses.

2. the Anti-Christ. who really is the anti-Christ? is he a person, a nation, group of nations or an institution. many people have been labelled anti-Christ. but yet there are billions of anti-Christs walking all over this planet,  . . . .my take is that God has a far deeper message to us concerning the anti-Christ. do I know this message. . . no I dont.

Lol, the appropriate question should be do any of us do?

3. 666. No one would willingly collect the 666 mark. . . . .so it might come in the form of a necessary innovation. . . .a necessity we just cannot do without,  like the internet, our debit or credit cards. oyster cards and many other necessities.
would anyone willingly receive the 666 mark, knowing fully well that it is a 666 mark? regardless of whether they are xtians or not, the fact that it is the much mentioned 666 is a bad selling point for the anti-Christ.

There have been so so many variations of the whole 666 thing, that I have lost count. I dunno that anyone "wouldn't willingly collect" the mark - I wouldn't put that beyond the depraved nature of humans.

4. End of the world. when exactly is the end of the world? . . . . .my take is the world like all other creations are coming to an end. . . but we are not yet at the very end. I might be wrong. . but the end all persons should be looking out for is the one stated in hebrews 9:27.
This should be the end that should concern every individual.

5 the judgement of God. many times many preachers try to prick on the emotions of people to say that certain wicked persons in society would receive judgements from God with immediate effect. I have learnt that this is FALSE. The persecution xtians suffer usually has the signature of God on it. . .largely within the plan of God. . that explains what was stated in psalm 34:19 that "many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers Him from them all" . . . . .I was once being persecuted at work. . . I prayed about it, I was going to confront my managers. . . guess what God told me . . , He said "do not confront anyone, see me working through them to make u a better person". . . . .This singular persecution turned out for good and changed my understanding of events.

And this is what Nwankwo ended his post with. That perhaps we should concern ourselves more with immediate and attainable charges that we've been given.

davidylan:

Good point. But i believe the idea that we can simply skip the prophecies because we dont understand them is not the way to go. There was a lot (parables, prophecies) the disciples could barely comprehend too . . . they didnt just gloss over it. There is room for searching the scriptures and asking God for interpretation . . .

  Yeah, you're right. I'm more than inclined to agree with that. Which is why I asked "then why did God give them to us, even though we may not be able to fully understand them" . . . is that a question we can even answer? I don't know.


Nwankwo, thanks again.

m_nwankwo:

Hi again. God gave humanity Revelation so that they will take from it what is of spiritual benefit to them. I have previously alluded that some sections of the book are within the conceptional capacity of human beings and it is these sections that are of benefit to man. Man can with the grace of God understand these sections. But there are many parts of it that he cannot understand because it deals with spiritual and in some cases divine events clothed in earthly words. When man comes to such sections, he meets a brick wall and no matter how hard he tries, he or she will not succed. One of our problems is that we as a specie always think that we are the focus of attention and whatever God does, it is for our purpose. Let me say and I must emphasise that this is my perception and not drawn from the other books of the bible. The book of Revelation and the pictures that it unfolds deals with the entire cosmos, not just humans, thus angels have sections of it that will benefit them, higher spirits have sections of it that will benefit them, human spirits (us) on earth have sections of it that will benefit them and even human spirits living in other universes have sections of it that will benefit them, etc. Each specie takes from Revealation as much as it is capable based on its nature and origin. One evidence that human spirits often try to interpret sections that they are incapable of understanding can be seen with the various millenial groups whose prediction of endtime have never been accurate even for once. Stay blessed.

Hmmm. Interesting. I see where you're going and it ties in with David's point above. We can't just skip them, but instead study it, and whatsoever spiritual insight or understanding we can glean, we take, all the while having the foundational concession that we will not be able to understand it fully. Is this a decent summary of your position?

There have been so so many variations of the whole 666 thing, that I have lost count. I dunno that anyone "wouldn't willingly collect" the mark - I wouldn't put that beyond the depraved nature of humans.

I consider that the number "666" is one of the part that is relevant to the spiritual development of humankind, thus I will ofer, albeit briefly my perception. "666" means "SIN". And sin is disobedience to the will of God. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

I consider that the number "666" is one of the part that is relevant to the spiritual development of humankind, thus I will ofer, albeit briefly my perception. "666" means "SIN". And sin is disobedience to the will of God. Stay blessed.

I dont think so . . . i believe this thing is deeper that what we presently know with limited knowledge. But at the same time i believe God has given us these prophecies so we can understand what times we are in. there is a particular prophecy in Revelations 17 which i strongly believe is a reflection of our times. I shall explain why i think so in subsequent posts here.

JeSoul:

 
Nwankwo, thanks again.
Hmmm. Interesting. I see where you're going and it ties in with David's point above. We can't just skip them, but instead study it, and whatsoever spiritual insight or understanding we can glean, we take, all the while having the foundational concession that we will not be able to understand it fully. Is this a decent summary of your position?

That is close as long as you remove the word study because study refers to the comprehensive capacity of the brain. Spiritual things cannot be percieved with the faculties of the brain. Revelation is a spiritual book and glimpses of what it reveals is only possible with the faculty of the spirit.

davidylan:

Interesting . . . is it possible that the world will be unaware of the rapture? The parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25) gives us a clue that it will be obvious to those left behind.

The above is also my literal deduction but from a xtian point of view, .  but it raises several other questions. If those left behind know that they have missed the rapture. .  . .do u not consider the case of a mutiny against the said anti-Christ? but the bible describes a peaceful reign and acceptance for the anti-Christ before the Armageddon . .  . .how do u reconcile this?

The bible makes it expressly clear who the PERSON of the anti-christ is . . . 2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

this is not a description of a "group" but that of a man. He will call himself God . . . and cause all to worship him.

1. on the contrary, my reference to a group or institution is simply to reflect the "anti-Christ" posture of several nations and groups. . . .can we say that they are being coordinated by one singular person? is just one person coordinating the many anti-God policies all over the world, the catholic perception of the pope having the power to forgive sins, or the islamic jihad against the sons of God.

I am not in any way suggesting that the anti-Christ is an institution or a group of people. . . ,  . . but that many nations and individuals readily constitute the "anti-Christ". IMO the papacy, illuminati, Islamic nations (suicide bombers and hate preachers) and institutions and several secular oriented institutions represent the "anti-Christ" doctrine. while they are anti-Christ. . they are perhaps not the "beast" described in the bible.

2. the scripture u quoted above is IMO not as literal as u choose to make it. IF any one comes out to literally defy the name of God and call himself God, he would be immediately labelled anti-Christ. . .and his plans would never succeed. the above scripture is IMO prophetic and it represents the sum of the spiritual inactions of the anti-Christ. I dont think they constitute his physical actions.
there are billions of people who subscribe to the existence of God. . .but do not necessarily know Him. . .do u not think they would rebel against anyone claiming to be God?

We are there already . . . 2 Tim 3

so when will the sons of God manifest?

davidylan:

Good point. [b]But i believe the idea that we can simply skip the prophecies because we dont understand them is not the way to go. [/b]There was a lot (parables, prophecies) the disciples could barely comprehend too . . . they didnt just gloss over it. There is room for searching the scriptures and asking God for interpretation . . .

Good point worth pondering over. it would however be better if one could be gifted with understanding these things rather than subscribing to several different and misguided interpretations.

You guys have given me plenty to think over, thanks for all your quality input. I'm going to sleep on it and be back for more . . .

Revelations 17

Caveat - this is my personal opinion and should not be taken for gospel truth. Feel free to criticise as you read.

[size=13pt][A][/size] 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great LovePeddler that sitteth upon many waters:

two things are important to note here:

1. LovePeddler - In bible terms this represents mingling with the world and complete departure from the precepts of God. Hosea 1 and 2 (and Rev 17:2 also) explains this. The RCC is firmly involved in politics.
2. Many waters - Signifies many people. - Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the LovePeddler sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Aside from Islam, The RCC is the largest religious denomination on earth, over a billion souls.

[size=13pt][B][/size] But who is this woman? Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This woman is the Roman Catholic church . . .

1. Mother of many harlots - every single church denomination today is an off-shoot of the catholic church.
2. She's drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs of Jesus - No other organisation has killed more christians than Rome, the church and its popes.
3. Upon her head was written all sorts of blasphemies.
4. She sits on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns but what are these?

7 heads - Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. T[b]he seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.[/b]

This is the most obvious . . . Rome sits on 7 hills.

It also symbolises 7 kings - 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

5 are fallen . . . Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian empires had all collapsed as at the time this was written. One is - the Roman empire was just coming into its full might then. The other is not yet come - this is the toes of iron/clay that Nebuchadnezzar saw . . . the Anglo-American empire.

the beast (the anti-christ) is the eighth and final "empire" and he is of the 7 (i.e. he will be a combination of all 7 empires).

The 10 horns - These are 10 kings (nations) . . . 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

As at the time this prophecy was given, they didnt exist which is why John writes this (which have recieved no kingdom as yet).

I strongly believe these 10 kings are going to be the 10 most powerful nations on earth at the end of time (we are not there yet). My hunch is this will come from the expansion of the G8 (with the addition of China and most likely Saudi Arabia) . . . just a hunch.

What is the purpose of the 10 kings? - 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Even non-christians are increasingly aware we are drifting close to a one-world order. With China's insistence on a global currency it is just a matter of time before we get there. One leader for the entire world controlling the armies and vast weaponry of G8 members is a scary thot.

What do the 10 kings do? - 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

I believe these are going to be the tools the Anti-Christ will use to wage the final war of armaggedon.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the LovePeddler, and shall make her desolate and unclothed, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

This is the final death knell to religion. Liberalism and atheism is on the rise . . . if anyone doesnt believe we are nearing an age when christianity will be outlawed . . . you certainly have not been paying attention to the news.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now we know the woman is actually a CITY . . . the VATICAN CITY which reigns over the kings of the earth. There is no gainsaying that the pope is the most revered and most powerful leader on earth.

Do i think we are firmly at the end of the last days? YES!

very rich and interesting I must say. .  . . I do have a few thoughtful observations though, . . brb

@ David and Jesoul . .  . I just want to stretch your analysis a little for the benefit of everyone (xtians).

1.The bible talks about the manifestation of the Sons of God. do u think they have already manifested? or are manifesting?
what if in the near future a Christian becomes a global entrepreneur who excels in all fields of human business endeavour. . . .with a great wealth, wisdom and acumen equivalent to that of King Solomon. . . .with which he pays off Africa's debts. . .what would u make of him? would u call him the anti-Christ? where would u place him in bible prophecy?

2. there are schools of thoughts who claim that we are in the era of Joseph. . . .awaiting the era of benjamin . . . .what do u make of those?

3. Does the inactions of the vatican as listed in your last post not constitute an "anti-Christ" institution?. . . . .by being a spiritual LovePeddler and having a cup full of the blood of the saints. . . . .would it not be safe to relate the vatican to the anti-Christ since the pope claims to have the power to forgive sins?
It is my hope that through poser 3 u would understand my notion that the "anti-Christ" dilemma might also symbolize an institution.

noetic16:

@ David and Jesoul . .  . I just want to stretch your analysis a little for the benefit of everyone (xtians).

1.The bible talks about the manifestation of the Sons of God. do u think they have already manifested? or are manifesting?
what if in the near future a Christian becomes a global entrepreneur who excels in all fields of human business endeavour. . . .with a great wealth, wisdom and acumen equivalent to that of King Solomon. . . .with which he pays off Africa's debts. . .what would u make of him? would u call him the anti-Christ? where would u place him in bible prophecy?

I am firmly of the opinion that what Paul meant there had nothing to do with christians "manifesting" as rich, successful men/women. To start with, if you read the entire Romans 8 in context . . . assuming that manifestation has something to do with physicall money sticks out like a sore thumb because it is dealing primarily with walking in the spirit. Infact from 31 he starts talking explicitly of the types of persecution that will confront the genuine child of God at the end.

I believe this is what Rom 8:19 was saying - Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke

the manifestation of the sons of God has to do with spiritual empowerment.

noetic16:

2. there are schools of thoughts who claim that we are in the era of Joseph. . . .awaiting the era of benjamin . . . .what do u make of those?

lol i have no idea what that means oh. What was the era of benjamin?

noetic16:

3. Does the inactions of the vatican as listed in your last post not constitute an "anti-Christ" institution?. . . . .by being a spiritual LovePeddler and having a cup full of the blood of the saints. . . . .would it not be safe to relate the vatican to the anti-Christ since the pope claims to have the power to forgive sins?
It is my hope that through poser 3 u would understand my notion that the "anti-Christ" dilemma might also symbolize an institution.

The woman of Rev 17 was sitting on the beast with 7 heads . . . clearly the woman and the beast are two separate entities thus i would think the RCC is distinct from the Anti-Christ himself. Remember that Rev 17:11 talks about him as the 8th king who is yet to come.

davidylan:

I am firmly of the opinion that what Paul meant there had nothing to do with christians "manifesting" as rich, successful men/women. To start with, if you read the entire Romans 8 in context . . . assuming that manifestation has something to do with physicall money sticks out like a sore thumb because it is dealing primarily with walking in the spirit. Infact from 31 he starts talking explicitly of the types of persecution that will confront the genuine child of God at the end.

I believe this is what Rom 8:19 was saying - Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke

the manifestation of the sons of God has to do with spiritual empowerment.

u did not answer the second part of my question. . .what would u make of such a man? would u call him the anti-Christ? . . . .I would tell u why I am asking this question when u guys respond.

lol i have no idea what that means oh. What was the era of benjamin?

lol. . . .its just a skool of thought that says that the eras of life is according to the lives of the sons of Jacob. . . .with Reuben as the first and Benjamin as the last. . it is believed that we are in the era of Joseph, . . , I do not subscribe to this skool of thought, but have been searching for more information about this belief as it tallies with certain things I have "seen".

The woman of Rev 17 was sitting on the beast with 7 heads . . . clearly the woman and the beast are two separate entities thus i would think the RCC is distinct from the Anti-Christ himself. Remember that Rev 17:11 talks about him as the 8th king who is yet to come.

Dont get me wrong. . . . .there are 2 anti-Christs in discourse. the first is the "beast", the second is the very definition of "anti-Christ". . which includes anything (institution or nation) or anyone against Christ. . . . . .so is the vatican by ur analyses not anti-Christ?

noetic16:

u did not answer the second part of my question. . .what would u make of such a man? would u call him the anti-Christ? . . . .I would tell u why I am asking this question when u guys respond.

Of course not. I would believe God must have raised him up (assuming he's a true christian) for a specific purpose.

noetic16:

lol. . . .its just a skool of thought that says that the eras of life is according to the lives of the sons of Jacob. . . .with Reuben as the first and Benjamin as the last. . it is believed that we are in the era of Joseph, . . , I do not subscribe to this skool of thought, but have been searching for more information about this belief as it tallies with certain things I have "seen".

I would like to know more about this. I havent heard it before.

noetic16:

Dont get me wrong. . . . .there are 2 anti-Christs in discourse. the first is the "beast", the second is the very definition of "anti-Christ". . which includes anything (institution or nation) or anyone against Christ. . . . . .so is the vatican by your analyses not anti-Christ?

By the definition of "anti-christ" in 1 John yes it would.

davidylan:

I am firmly of the opinion that what Paul meant there had nothing to do with christians "manifesting" as rich, successful men/women. To start with, if you read the entire Romans 8 in context . . . assuming that manifestation has something to do with physicall money sticks out like a sore thumb because it is dealing primarily with walking in the spirit. Infact from 31 he starts talking explicitly of the types of persecution that will confront the genuine child of God at the end.

I believe this is what Rom 8:19 was saying - Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke

the manifestation of the sons of God has to do with spiritual empowerment.

lol i have no idea what that means oh. What was the era of benjamin?

The woman of Rev 17 was sitting on the beast with 7 heads . . . clearly the woman and the beast are two separate entities thus i would think the RCC is distinct from the Anti-Christ himself. Remember that Rev 17:11 talks about him as the 8th king who is yet to come.

I have a completely different opinion to ur position on the manifestation of the sons of God.
I believe that they are meant to manifest in superb statues as major players on the world scene like Daniel and Joseph. 1 corth 15:19 buttresses this point. . . . definitely not all sons of God . . . , but some to serve as exemplary believers. This is what the spirit has revealed to me. . . . .and it also largely explains why I think that "perhaps" we are not at the very end of the world.

this manifestation has little or nothing to do with money or material gains but largely with the purpose of God for this season.
This is not an excuse for prosperity preachers. . . .as I do not subscribe to their gospel. . .but this is what I am being led to believe in.
what intrigues me is how would we (the body of believers) interpret these events should they play out? would they (the prosperous sons) be labelled as the anti-Christs or as sons of God for being audaciously successful? ? ?

noetic16:

I have a completely different opinion to your position on the manifestation of the sons of God.
I believe that they are meant to manifest in superb statues as major players on the world scene like Daniel and Joseph. 1 corth 15:19 buttresses this point. . . . definitely not all sons of God . . . , but some to serve as exemplary believers. This is what the spirit has revealed to me. . . . .and it also largely explains why I think that "perhaps" we are not at the very end of the world.

No i dont think it does. Verse 12 is the meat of this chapter - Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

The christians at corinth here were of the belief that there was no afterlife (no resurrection of the dead). But Paul points out that if Christ (our hole and salvation) be risen, will He not also raise us from the dead to be with Him for eternity?

Look at thisi verses - 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Paul was saying . . . if the dead rise not . . . then what was the point in Christ Himself being raised on the third day? If Christ didnt rise then of what use is salvation unto reprentance? Are we not saved primarily into the hope that we will reign with Him in paradise?

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

He then goes on to explain that if it is true that there is no resurrection from the dead then those who have died are totally gone, perished, vanished . . . nada.

this then forms the basis for verse 19 . . . If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable

If the only hope in salvation is when we are in this flesh then what is the point? I might as well remain a sinner, enjoy the trappings of iniquity since when i die there is no punishment or reward abi?

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. This sums up the hope for the believer . . . our salvation is not in vain. Our sacrifice for the kingdom is not just restricted to this world but there is a bigger prize out there. When we die we dont just go into thin air . . . there is a reward laid up for us in heaven.

Davidylan, I strongly agree with your views on the RCC and the woman in Revelations.

davidylan:

No i dont think it does. Verse 12 is the meat of this chapter - Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

The christians at corinth here were of the belief that there was no afterlife (no resurrection of the dead). But Paul points out that if Christ (our hole and salvation) be risen, will He not also raise us from the dead to be with Him for eternity?

Look at thisi verses - 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Paul was saying . . . if the dead rise not . . . then what was the point in Christ Himself being raised on the third day? If Christ didnt rise then of what use is salvation unto reprentance? Are we not saved primarily into the hope that we will reign with Him in paradise?

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

He then goes on to explain that if it is true that there is no resurrection from the dead then those who have died are totally gone, perished, vanished . . . nada.

this then forms the basis for verse 19 . . . If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable

If the only hope in salvation is when we are in this flesh then what is the point? I might as well remain a sinner, enjoy the trappings of iniquity since when i die there is no punishment or reward abi?

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. This sums up the hope for the believer . . . our salvation is not in vain. Our sacrifice for the kingdom is not just restricted to this world but there is a bigger prize out there. When we die we dont just go into thin air . . . there is a reward laid up for us in heaven.

I do not fault ur submission . . . . .as it should be the literal deduction.

but my difference in opinion is largely based on what I have "seen". . , .unfortunately I cannot construct it in words.

My opinion on this thread is largely influenced by the spiritual quandary I am in at the present. . . . . .I will share some snippets with you REGARDLESS of difference in opinion or criticism.

a. I "saw God" anoint a man (from africa to do exploits in this generation) on mountains in the spiritual realm.
b. I saw this person grow to become a mighty person, a major world player and the wealthiest person on the globe. He actually controls more than half the wealth of the world.
c. he is born-again, filled with the holy ghost and was sent to also crusade against the many false prophets in the church.
d. God depicts this man as a mighty tree under whom many come to rest and are fed.
e. this man is the tool through which God pulls several mountains out of Africa to the glory of God.
f. I have a vision diary which I have collected my visions over the past two years. . .and all I see in this diary is God making a super-power out of one individual in this generation,  . .  . . , I cannot share all of what I have seen. . .but the above should paint a picture.

the following are my quandaries. .  .
1. No where in the scripture was this personality discussed,  . . I have searched from genesis to revelation. The only singular person so discussed to be so powerful and influential was the beast called the anti-Christ. but I was told in a "word of revelation" that this person is NOT the anti-Christ,   ,  . . . .but that the anti-Christ (beast) would follow shortly after him.

2. After diligent search . . . . The closest thing in the scripture to this person is Daniel and Joseph's might in their era. This explains why I was curious when I once heard a preacher say that we are in the era of Joseph awaiting the era of Benjamin.
The closest word in the new testament to this person is "the earth awaits the manifestation of the sons of God". . . .cos he was specifically defined to me in the spirit as "an adopted son of God through Christ Jesus".

3. God has taught me in the hard way never to dismiss my visions. . .as they come to pass whether I believe in them or not. This particular one is an ongoing revelation which is specifically earmarked for manifestation in this generation.

Some posers for u. . . .

1. The man in the description above, since he does not fit anywhere in bible prophecy. . where does he fit in?. . . . .since it is wrong to limit the works and plans of God to the bible and it is also very wrong to search extra-biblical sources for such prophecies?

2. It is in lieu of these visions that I STRONGLY believe that we are not at the VERY END of the world. cos all I see from my vision dairy are crazy changes on this planet by the sons of God to the glory of God in this generation,  . . . . . . ,

3. David's and the JW analysis of Daniel2 and revelation 17 are rich (I have seen them on the net for while). . . but my indifference (not disagreement) to them is influenced by the fact that my very best personal interpretations of God's prophecies usually have holes and are not so straight forward like a text book. .  .that explains why I believe that end time prophecies like rapture, 666, anti-Christ and just not as literal as we see it. . .but connote deeper meanings.

4. what is the implication of these vision for the church? what would the church make of an individual like that? with so much power and affluence . . .would he be labelled the anti-Christ?

. . . . . .brb

^^^ Na Obama?

David and Noetic, very nice back n forth.

davidylan:

Revelations 17

Caveat - this is my personal opinion and should not be taken for gospel truth. Feel free to criticise as you read.

[size=13pt][A][/size] 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great LovePeddler that sitteth upon many waters:

two things are important to note here:

1. LovePeddler - In bible terms this represents mingling with the world and complete departure from the precepts of God. Hosea 1 and 2 (and Rev 17:2 also) explains this. The RCC is firmly involved in politics.
2. Many waters - Signifies many people. - Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the LovePeddler sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Aside from Islam, The RCC is the largest religious denomination on earth, over a billion souls.

[size=13pt][B][/size] But who is this woman? Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This woman is the Roman Catholic church . . .

1. Mother of many harlots - every single church denomination today is an off-shoot of the catholic church.
2. She's drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs of Jesus - No other organisation has killed more christians than Rome, the church and its popes.
3. Upon her head was written all sorts of blasphemies.
4. She sits on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns but what are these?

7 heads - Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. T[b]he seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.[/b]

This is the most obvious . . . Rome sits on 7 hills.

It also symbolises 7 kings - 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

5 are fallen . . . Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian empires had all collapsed as at the time this was written. One is - the Roman empire was just coming into its full might then. The other is not yet come - this is the toes of iron/clay that Nebuchadnezzar saw . . . the Anglo-American empire.

the beast (the anti-christ) is the eighth and final "empire" and he is of the 7 (i.e. he will be a combination of all 7 empires).

The 10 horns - These are 10 kings (nations) . . . 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

As at the time this prophecy was given, they didnt exist which is why John writes this (which have recieved no kingdom as yet).

I strongly believe these 10 kings are going to be the 10 most powerful nations on earth at the end of time (we are not there yet). My hunch is this will come from the expansion of the G8 (with the addition of China and most likely Saudi Arabia) . . . just a hunch.

What is the purpose of the 10 kings? - 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Even non-christians are increasingly aware we are drifting close to a one-world order. With China's insistence on a global currency it is just a matter of time before we get there. One leader for the entire world controlling the armies and vast weaponry of G8 members is a scary thot.

What do the 10 kings do? - 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

I believe these are going to be the tools the Anti-Christ will use to wage the final war of armaggedon.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the LovePeddler, and shall make her desolate and unclothed, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

This is the final death knell to religion. Liberalism and atheism is on the rise . . . if anyone doesnt believe we are nearing an age when christianity will be outlawed . . . you certainly have not been paying attention to the news.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now we know the woman is actually a CITY . . . the VATICAN CITY which reigns over the kings of the earth. There is no gainsaying that the pope is the most revered and most powerful leader on earth.

Do i think we are firmly at the end of the last days? YES!

David, good analysis here. I think this is the most popularly accepted interpretation of that verse and honestly I don't think there's much to critique. It certainly is a plausible version. Here's one I found that interprets it to have[i] already happened:[/i]

[Revelation was written in the 1st Century by John of Patmos (Patmos was a Roman penal colony). It is thought that John may have also been John the Apostle of Jesus. Because John was subject to persecution by his Roman captors, God used Babylon as a code name for Rome in Revelation. This interpretation is confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament.
A) Babylon Prostitute: Revelation 17 refers to the Babylon prostitute who is known for her abominations and drunken with the blood of saints. It mentions that the prostitute is associated with the 7 hills. The 7 hills most likely represent 7 hills found in Rome. Since the Babylon prostitute is a persecutor of saints, it must be "non Christian". It is known that the Roman Emperors persecuted Christians from time to time for hundreds of years. So this would be an accurate description of pagan Rome.

B) 10 Kings who persecute the saints: Revelation 17 also refers to the 10 kings who will persecute Christians for one hour.

If we look at history, the first Roman persecutor of Christians was Nero. He is mentioned earlier in Revelation 13 as the beast, the man who in Hebrew numerology was known as "666". His character certainly matched that of an evil emperor, one who was a beast who was immoral. And he is associated with the false religion (false prophet) of the Imperial Emperor worship.

When we look back in the vision of Revelation, we see the beast as represented by Nero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

Persecution under Nero (c. 64-68)

When we look forward in the future from the vision, we see in Roman history, the beast of pagan Rome continues its persecution of Christians. There were to be 10 kings who will reign for 1 hour who would persecute the Christians in the near future. It states "they will go to war against the Lamb (Jesus)" (NJB Rev 17:14). The kings are listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire


Persecution under Domitian (r. 81-96)
Persecution under Trajan (112-117)
Persecution under Marcus Aurelius (r. 161-180)
Persecution under Septimus Severus (202-210)
Persecution under Maximinus the Thracian (235-38)
Persecution under Decius (250-251)
Persecution under Valerian (257-59)
Persecution under Aurelian (r. 270-275)
Severe persecution under Diocletian (303-324)
Persecution Under Julian the Apostate (r. 361-363)
C) 10 Kings who persecute the prostitute: Revelaton also mentions the 10 kings who would also persecute the Babylonian prostitute. These kings represent the Christian kings who ruled Rome from Constatine (4th century) forward. These kings persecuted the pagans, destroyed the pagan temples and gave their wealth to the Christian church. It was Christian Kings who set fire to Rome and sacked it.

D) 7 Emperors: The 7 emperors of Revelation 17 are likely the significant Emporers, starting with Augustus Caesar, who established emporer worship in the Roman empire. This emperor worship is an abomination in God's eyes and represented the false prophet associated with the beast (the beast who prosecutes Christians).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_explanation_of_Revelation_17

noetic16:

@ David and Jesoul . .  . I just want to stretch your analysis a little for the benefit of everyone (xtians).

1.The bible talks about the manifestation of the Sons of God. do u think they have already manifested? or are manifesting?

First we may need to clarify what we mean by manifestation.

1. I agree partly with David's response. The "sons of God" are manifesting right now, as they've been since Jesus ascension, as the spirit leads. This manifestation I don't think can be biblically supported to be "material" but rather spiritual. Acts 2 is a solid reference.

2. However specifically in Romans 8 (the verse I think you're refering to), in context of the entire chapter and specifically verse 19, it is speaking of a time when we will be liberated from our sinful bodies and given a higher estate - and that all creation also is eagerly waiting in expectation for when they too will be freed from sin's "decay". Hence the "manifestation" tag here I hold is simply refering to the day when He returns and when we will receive our new bodies and finally "manifest as the Sons of God".

Hope that makes sense?

what if in the near future a Christian becomes a global entrepreneur who excels in all fields of human business endeavour. . . .with a great wealth, wisdom and acumen equivalent to that of King Solomon. . . .with which he pays off Africa's debts. . .what would u make of him? would u call him the anti-Christ? where would u place him in bible prophecy?

Honestly, unless God revealed something to me personally about this person, I would refrain from assigning him a prophetical biblical price tag, declaring this is what he is or isn't, because like you say, we just don't know for certain. And even if God revealed it to me personally, I would also probably refrain from sharing it with others as absolute truth - unless I was directed to do so.

2. there are schools of thoughts who claim that we are in the era of Joseph. . . .awaiting the era of benjamin . . . .what do u make of those?

Era of wetin? lol. I haven't heard of that either. And I doubt they can support it biblically - it sounds just like another one of popular "christian" speak - season of this, harvest of that etc etc

Hi JeSoul, like i said earlier . . . that was my private interpretation of Rev 17 and others might have different opinions about it but i have some reservations as regards the other one you posted.

For example it says Nero is the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns . . . but Nero was the FIRST emperor to persecute christians . . . this would run counter to Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Quite clearly this beast WAS and IS NOT but IS THE EIGHTH (i.e. he will come AFTER the 7 kings from verse 10 not before). Verse 11 also says he goes into perdition . . . we know the anti-christ himself, not Nero, is the son of perdition.

JeSoul:

First we may need to clarify what we mean by manifestation.

1. I agree partly with David's response. The "sons of God" are manifesting right now, as they've been since Jesus ascension, as the spirit leads. This manifestation I don't think can be biblically supported to be "material" but rather spiritual. Acts 2 is a solid reference.

2. However specifically in Romans 8 (the verse I think you're refering to), in context of the entire chapter and specifically verse 19, it is speaking of a time when we will be liberated from our sinful bodies and given a higher estate - and that all creation also is eagerly waiting in expectation for when they too will be freed from sin's "decay". Hence the "manifestation" tag here I hold is simply refering to the day when He returns and when we will receive our new bodies and finally "manifest as the Sons of God".

Hope that makes sense?

I am with you on this one.

noetic16:

My opinion on this thread is largely influenced by the spiritual quandary I am in at the present. . . . . .I will share some snippets with you REGARDLESS of difference in opinion or criticism.

a. I "saw God" anoint a man (from africa to do exploits in this generation) on mountains in the spiritual realm.
b. I saw this person grow to become a mighty person, a major world player and the wealthiest person on the globe. He actually controls more than half the wealth of the world.
c. he is born-again, filled with the holy ghost and was sent to also crusade against the many false prophets in the church.
d. God depicts this man as a mighty tree under whom many come to rest and are fed.
e. this man is the tool through which God pulls several mountains out of Africa to the glory of God.
f. I have a vision diary which I have collected my visions over the past two years. . .and all I see in this diary is God making a super-power out of one individual in this generation,  . .  . . , I cannot share all of what I have seen. . .but the above should paint a picture.

the following are my quandaries. .  .
1. No where in the scripture was this personality discussed,  . . I have searched from genesis to revelation. The only singular person so discussed to be so powerful and influential was the beast called the anti-Christ. but I was told in a "word of revelation" that this person is NOT the anti-Christ,   ,  . . . .but that the anti-Christ (beast) would follow shortly after him.

2. After diligent search . . . . The closest thing in the scripture to this person is Daniel and Joseph's might in their era. This explains why I was curious when I once heard a preacher say that we are in the era of Joseph awaiting the era of Benjamin.
The closest word in the new testament to this person is "the earth awaits the manifestation of the sons of God". . . .cos he was specifically defined to me in the spirit as "an adopted son of God through Christ Jesus".

 Perhaps Noetic, these visions are not meant to be taken in the most literal sense? perhaps the figures and places are symbolic? Well certainly do as you are led. I think you're taking the right approach in not simply dimissing them. But also leave a little bit of room that this may not be a prophecy for the future. But maybe something else God is trying to show/teach you.

1. The man in the description above, since he does not fit anywhere in bible prophecy. . where does he fit in?. . . . .since it is wrong to limit the works and plans of God to the bible and it is also very wrong to search extra-biblical sources for such prophecies?

Extra-biblical resources can be profitable, but I think the danger far outweighs any profit. How do you confirm such a prophecy is real or fake? since it speaks to a future no one knows? When you begin to consult anything other than the bible, it opens doors for false teachings and human error to cloud things and leave one holding on to beliefs that may be dead wrong.
 

2. It is in lieu of these visions that I STRONGLY believe that we are not at the VERY END of the world. cos all I see from my vision dairy are crazy changes on this planet by the sons of God to the glory of God in this generation,  . . . . . . ,

  You know what?  Peter also believed that they were in the LAST DAYS.
When the disciples were speaking in tongues, Peter explained that it was simply a fulfilment of the prophecy in Joel. Acts 2:
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
     I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
  Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
     your young men will see visions,
     your old men will dream dreams.

My understanding is that we've been living in the last days since Jesus left. I mean we've been seeing the "signs" (earthquakes, wars etc) Jesus told us about for centuries and centuries. When exactly the END will come - only God knows.

3. David's and the JW analysis of Daniel2 and revelation 17 are rich (I have seen them on the net for while). . . but my indifference (not disagreement) to them is influenced by the fact that my very best personal interpretations of God's prophecies usually have holes and are not so straight forward like a text book. .  .that explains why I believe that end time prophecies like rapture, 666, anti-Christ and just not as literal as we see it. . .but connote deeper meanings.

It could very well be. We will not know until it unfolds before our eyes.

4. what is the implication of these vision for the church? what would the church make of an individual like that? with so much power and affluence . . .would he be labelled the anti-Christ?

. . . . . .brb

I think the church should concern herself with only one thing - loving God and serving His people. We have barely met the minimum requirements of that charge, that we should be turning our eyes to incredibly complicated, perhaps unattainable prophetic exploits.

davidylan:

Hi JeSoul, like i said earlier . . . that was my private interpretation of Rev 17 and others might have different opinions about it but i have some reservations as regards the other one you posted.

For example it says Nero is the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns . . . but Nero was the FIRST emperor to persecute christians . . . this would run counter to Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Quite clearly this beast WAS and IS NOT but IS THE EIGHTH (i.e. he will come AFTER the 7 kings from verse 10 not before). Verse 11 also says he goes into perdition . . . we know the anti-christ himself, not Nero, is the son of perdition.

I have plenty reservations about what I posted too! lol.
I'm definitely inclined towards your interpretation. I just wanted to show another of several versions out there.

JeSoul:

First we may need to clarify what we mean by manifestation.

1. I agree partly with David's response. The "sons of God" are manifesting right now, as they've been since Jesus ascension, as the spirit leads. This manifestation I don't think can be biblically supported to be "material" but rather spiritual. Acts 2 is a solid reference.

2. However specifically in Romans 8 (the verse I think you're refering to), in context of the entire chapter and specifically verse 19, it is speaking of a time when we will be liberated from our sinful bodies and given a higher estate - and that all creation also is eagerly waiting in expectation for when they too will be freed from sin's "decay". Hence the "manifestation" tag here I hold is simply refering to the day when He returns and when we will receive our new bodies and finally "manifest as the Sons of God".

Normally I would naturally interpret the verse as u and David have done. . . . . .but my unsuccessful attempt to link these visions to biblical prophecies was what made me settle for my position on this. . . . I maintain my indifference.

Hope that makes sense?
Honestly, unless God revealed something to me personally about this person, I would refrain from assigning him a prophetical biblical price tag, declaring this is what he is or isn't, because like you say, we just don't know for certain. And even if God revealed it to me personally, I would also probably refrain from sharing it with others as absolute truth - unless I was directed to do so.

I did not call this a revelation. . .all I did was to ask a simple question here.

I only shared this under the anonymity ofthe internet. . . . .this are visions I have shared with no one. my expectation at sharing was that perhaps I might meet one or two others who have seen heard something similar in the spirit realm. . . . . I guess I am walking alone.

Era of wetin? lol. I haven't heard of that either. And I doubt they can support it biblically - it sounds just like another one of popular "christian" speak - season of this, harvest of that etc etc

lol. . , when I heard it. . . I was more open to it. . . .largely because of what I had heard/seen myself. . .but the person (a preacher formerly from tdJakes church) who said only said so as a reference and not as a full sermon. . . . .I only raised it here in the hope that there would be someone who has heard it b4.

JeSoul:


 Perhaps Noetic, these visions are not meant to be taken in the most literal sense? perhaps the figures and places are symbolic? Well certainly do as you are led. I think you're taking the right approach in not simply dimissing them. But also leave a little bit of room that this may not be a prophecy for the future. But maybe something else God is trying to show/teach you.

These visions have been explained to me by the Lord Himself and they are to be taken in the literal sense, . . . .I will reserve further comments on that.
but why did I share it in the first place? . . .I shared it largely because of what I have been experiencing. . .which is hearing from God.
I was never taught to do so. . I find it strange and impossible. . . . .the things I have heard, I cannot repeat most of them, the things I have seen I cannot describe. . .my hope was that perhaps there was someone else out there who has heard some things I have heard and seen some things I have seen. . .thats the only reason I posted the vision, . . . .There are several others, but I guess they are only for personal consumption.

Extra-biblical resources can be profitable, but I think the danger far outweighs any profit. How do you confirm such a prophecy is real or fake? since it speaks to a future no one knows? When you begin to consult anything other than the bible, it opens doors for false teachings and human error to cloud things and leave one holding on to beliefs that may be dead wrong.

You are so right.

    You know what?  Peter also believed that they were in the LAST DAYS.
When the disciples were speaking in tongues, Peter explained that it was simply a fulfilment of the prophecy in Joel. Acts 2:
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
     I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
  Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
     your young men will see visions,
     your old men will dream dreams.

My understanding is that we've been living in the last days since Jesus left. I mean we've been seeing the "signs" (earthquakes, wars etc) Jesus told us about for centuries and centuries. When exactly the END will come - only God knows.
It could very well be. We will not know until it unfolds before our eyes.

This explains my belief. . .while we live in the LAST DAYS . . , there are still several biblical prophecies pending until the LAST HOUR.

I think the church should concern herself with only one thing - loving God and serving His people. We have barely met the minimum requirements of that charge, that we should be turning our eyes to incredibly complicated, perhaps unattainable prophetic exploits.

uhmn. . . , . . ,

Deep Sight:

^^^ Na Obama?

nope bro.