babaearly:

@m_nwankwo
I sense you are a mystic. who is Jesus Christ to you?

Hi Babaearly. Thank you for your question. I am not a mystic and I oppose all mysticism or its cousin occultism. Jesus Christ is the son of God, or God the son. He is the conformation of the unsusbstantiate (uncreated) love of God the Father. Jesus Christ is a "part" of God the Father. When humanity was in danger of spiritual death as a result of our sins, and the power of any thing that was created (prophets and called ones) was insufficient to crush the darkness, God the Father personally intervened by sending a part of Himself into creation and incarnated it in flesh and blood as Jesus Christ. The mission of Jesus was to bring the word of God to humanity and those who listen and live according to the teachings of Jesus will be redeemed from their sins and be granted the eternal grace of being permitted to return back to the kingdom of God. Thus Jesus, the son of God is the Redeemer. Darkness opposed this mission of God and wiped hatred against Jesus and his words. Darkness or Evil can not lay hold on Jesus Himself as his unsubstantiate divine purity repelled all evil. Darkness made use of willing tools, among them are the religious leaders at that time and his own disciple Judas. They plotted and finally murdered the physical body of the son of God. Jesus did not shy away from physical death but faced it out of love for God the Father and for humanity. With his blood, Jesus put a seal to his conviction that he is the son of God and that his living words is Life and will bring redemption to those who adhere to it. He thus vanquished the darkness and brought redemption to humanity. Best Wishes.

Jeez!

I really do have a lot to ask you guys - INesQor and Enigma.

This your absurd idea about non-believers being members of the body of Christ and "making heaven" is. . . I dunno what to say. Coming from guys like you. . . Well, I just hope I can find enough time online to join this discussion soon before it gets stale.

Cheers!

@petres_007: can you please provide background information for the criteria to enter heaven, using your BIBLE?

Enigma: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
(Matthew 7: 21-23)

Brilliant! I just saw this edited post by Enigma!! Thanks again!!!

InesQor:

@petres_007: can you please provide background information for the criteria to enter heaven, using your BIBLE?

Err.  .  . we'll get to that later. 

I noticed your caveat "I may be erring" so I take that you're not putting this idea forward as gospel truth, right? 

On that note I'll like to ask one question: where does the sacrifice of Jesus Christ fit into this ideology (if I may call it that)? It seems pretty clear that that his death/sacrifice is absolutely not needed, if one were to go by this idea.

Again, I apologize for sidestepping your question but I really believe we'll get to that after clearing up some issues I consider important, before jumping to that.

I'm also sort of busy now and may not be able to reply to your response quickly but please go ahead and post. Thanks!

@petres_007:

petres_007:

Err.  .  . we'll get to that later. 

I noticed your caveat "I may be erring" so I take that you're not putting this idea forward as gospel truth, right? 

On that note I'll like to ask one question: where does the sacrifice of Jesus Christ fit into this ideology (if I may call it that)? It seems pretty clear that that his death/sacrifice is absolutely not needed, if one were to go by this idea.

Again, I apologize for sidestepping your question but I really believe we'll get to that after clearing up some issues I consider important, before jumping to that.

I'm also sort of busy now and may not be able to reply to your response quickly but please go ahead and post. Thanks!

Thank you very much for your courtesy!

Where does the sacrifice of Jesus Christ fit in? Jesus Christ died for everybody, so it's a given. I hope you understand what I'm saying?

A Muslim by choosing to be a Muslim does not negate or reduce the impact of Christ's sacrifice. A Buddhist neither. A Christian neither.

Jesus Christ died for us all. To save us all.

^^ You still have not explained why it was necessary for jesus to die for us in other to save us all.Why was such an act necessary?Christians will never be able to provide a concrete answer to that question, ever, because every christian knows deep down what a senseless and superfluous act that was.

jagunlabi:

^^ You still have not explained why it was necessary for jesus to die for us in other to save us all.Why was such an act necessary?Christians will never be able to provide a concrete answer to that question, ever, because every christian knows deep down what a senseless and superfluous act that was.

Jesus said the Father God said it was necessary.

And that's good enough for me. Maybe when I get to heaven I will ask more questions.

petres_007:

Jeez!

I really do have a lot to ask you guys - INesQor and Enigma.

This your absurd idea about non-believers being members of the body of Christ and "making heaven" is.  .  . I dunno what to say. Coming from guys like you.  .  . Well, I just hope I can find enough time online to join this discussion soon before it gets stale.

Cheers! 

Hi Petres_007

I understand your concern about this topic; in fact, you will notice that the opening post mentioned that Billy Graham's statement has been controversial (actually, that is an understatement because many have vilified and even condemned Graham for it).

However, the interesting thing is that this view point is actually quite common in traditional christianity. In fact it is the doctrine of the Catholic church, as far as I understand it; it is also a wide held view in the Anglican tradition. I have also read that people like C S Lewis and John Wesley held this view.

Before going on, I need to make a clarification: this view, for which we may use the broad term 'inclusivism' is different from 'universalism' --- which is another kettle of fish altogether.

Now back to the point: there are many ways to look at it BUT[/B] always remember that as Christians we hold that Jesus is the [b]only way. There is no other way!. Having established that, let us look at a couple of scenarios:

1. Jesus is the door ---- everyone must go through that door.
2. Jesus is the gatekeeper --- everyone must get the approval of that gatekeeper to go in.
2(a) You are going to a party; they have a tough bouncer at the gate; but he is your friend; therefore before you leave home you are assured of entry. Mr. A is not a friend of the bouncer; he has no IV; he goes along nonetheless; for some reason the bouncer lets him in - telling him, "yesterday I saw you giving that blind man N100, I thought that was sweet of you"; or Miss C goes along, the bouncer says "oh I saw you smile nicely at an old lady yesterday, I thought that was nice, do come in".

3. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus: looked at another way, nobody comes to the Father except on Jesus' say-so; so supposing Jesus says to a chap who was a Moslem on this earth, "you can come in"! Compare this to the parable of the wedding feast ----- all those who were then invited from the street, after some of the original guests had messed up, were they originally invited? Were they in the "inner circle".

The summary: as Christians, we know, at least should know, that we are certainly of the "inner circle"; we have assurance of salvation. That is all we can say ------ as for those in the "outer circle", we trust the Judge of all the earth to do right. That is all we are saying.

Wow. Enigma, thanks for shedding more light on the topic once again!

Inclusivism. Interesting

Romans 2:14-16

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Don't stop now please. And InesQor, please answer Jagunlabi's question.

Great ideas here and very thought provoking for them with brains to think

clearly this is confusion.

jagunlabi:

^^ You still have not explained why it was necessary for jesus to die for us in other to save us all.Why was such an act necessary?Christians will never be able to provide a concrete answer to that question, ever, because every christian knows deep down what a senseless and superfluous act that was.

Please permit me to answer this one.

This is not true. Some Christians understand the true nature of the Deicide (Christ's sacrifice).

Salvation accrues to the believer in a two-fold manner by virtue of Deicide:

1. In spite of the crucifixion, and
2. Because of the crucifixion.

The "in spite" part is where men and forces of nature attempted to ridicule God by murdering his son, the same way they killed and persecuted revolutionary prophets before Christ (Matt 23:34-37). God knew that they would treat his son the same way, but his counsel worked in spite of their evil machinations.

The "because" part is the part that nobody else saw coming. The only person who is recorded to have had an idea was John the Baptist, who announced in John 1:29 that Jesus was the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. This was in comparison to Leveticus 4:32 where laws were passed that to cover up for sin, one must sacrifice a lamb without spot, deformity or blemish. Against the lamb's will to live, it is sacrificed to clean up someone else's sin. This was just a shadow of things to come.

So here it is: the world thought that it was getting rid of God's son, but in spite of that it still worked exactly as God had planned it. That's omniscience. So, jagunlabi, maybe the question is "What if they hadn't murdered Jesus? How would the IN SPITE aspect have occurred?" and sincerely I do not know the answer but I believe that it would have only been a matter of time before they killed Jesus. They killed other prophets that said less things to make them feel insecure.

To better understand the "in spite" dimension and the "because" dimension of operation of divine things, look at the story of Jacob and Esau.

God had already defined it that Jacob would be greater than Esau. He wasn't "cheating" Esau out of a good chance, but God said so because he already knew how things would turn out.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

But Jacob was cunning. I doubt that he knew of the prophecy, but he was ambitious enough to secure a legal position as the first-born for a meal of bread and red pottage of lentiles. He cheated his brother to get this backing, but I believe if he had not cheated, it would still have worked out well for him IN SPITE of not buying the birthright.

Finally, his mother remembered the prophecy and she made Jacob trick his father (who may not have known the prophecy) and get the blessing (which was already his legally since Esau sold his birthright).

Jacob got blessed above Esau BECAUSE of the sold birthright, but he also got blessed above Esau IN SPITE of the sold birthright (since that was a cheat).

It is a similar case for us.

As to how Christ's sacrifice makes any difference if Moslems, Buddhists and Non-believers can get to heaven if they don't believe in the sacrifice, Enigma has done a good job already.

Just found an old post of mine from 2005 as quoted below (good excuse for reviving this thread!). Actually going through some very old posts reminds me that we are often just going round in circles ---- maybe not so bad as there are always new folk minds to disabuse and 'older' ones to remind of some things. 

ETA Link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-3885.96.html#msg136874

Enigma:

Below are statements by four highly placed and highly read Christians, that I personally respect, making statements that non-Christians can go to heaven. Of these four, Billy Graham is probably the most well known evangelist in the world in the past few decades and it can be argued that as far as can be seen no one living presently has done more than him (publicly) to "win souls for Christ". The others are all respected by millions of Christians worldwide; I even included a Nigerian because of the audience of this forum.

I think if people like these can say it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven, people who argue otherwise should think twice and take time to think about other possibilities.




1.   Robert Schuller & Billy Graham Interview (Sorry I can’t find a link for the interview on its own without misguided negative comments)



Reported by The Christian News October 20, 1997

"Schuller: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

Graham: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious, of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ, I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for his name whether they come from the Muslim world, or Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Schuller: What, what I hear you saying, that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

Graham: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Schuller: I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There a widness in God's mercy.

Graham: There is. There definately is"



2.  Archbishop of Canterbury says Non-Christians Can Go to Heaven



3.  Pope says Non Christians Can Go to Heaven



4. Cardinal Arinze says it is possible to get to heaven without accepting Jesus.

During a group discussion of religious leaders from around the world, held at the Thanksgiving World Assembly in Dallas, Texas, in March of 1999, Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, is quoted as follows:

"(A document from the Second Vatican Council) says that God's grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God's action. , " ,

Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM, asked Cardinal Arinze: "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?"

Cardinal Arinze answered: "Expressly, yes (he laughs with the audience)."

Source:  'If God himself gave freedom', article © March 20, 1999, by Brooks Egerton, staff writer of The Dallas Morning News, third edition, page 1G.




PS apologies: now edited to fix codes for links!

InesQor:

@petres_007: can you please provide background information for the criteria to enter heaven, using your BIBLE?

The criteria for making heaven was clearly stated by Jesus Christ Himself; and i noticed that in your post of bible scriptures(particularly John chapter 3), you deliberately dodged John 3:3; Jesus clearly spelt out here that except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, b4 He went on to explain those verses you posted!!!

And reading Romans 10:9 gives you the idea: If thou shalt confess with your mouth the LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST, and BELIEVE in your heart that GOD raised Him from the DEAD, thou shalt be saved(SALVATION);

If you dont believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (resurrection), then you are wasting your time with all d scholarly right-up you are deducing from the bible; You can only confess what you believe in your heart. And I also noticed that you were emphasizing on "GOOD WORKS" as d main criteria to make heaven; Guy, you be amazed at yourself in THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST to discover that all your GOOD WORKS did count to nothing!! All dat He required from you was to accept His salvation of your soul; which you rather rejected, chosing to please Him with your GOOD WORKS instead; Mind you i am in no way against good works, but if you can add to your good works, salvation, then you become a bonafide candidate for the kingdom of GOD

As for Billy Graham, he showed himself to be who he truly is (AN APOSTATE) when he shocked the Christian world with that statement;

Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME, ";

but billy graham says: "no no no, Jesus is not the only way, muhammed is also a way, maitreya is also a way, khrisna is also a way, "

Is this not an APOSTACY on the part of billy graham Well true Christians arent surprise because Jesus had said it that even some supposed believers wud b deceived in d end of times!! What billy graham said is not different from what Oprah windfrey said, so, we know them as who they truly are - LUCIFERIANS;

iF YOU GUYS GOOGLE SHARE INTERNATIONAL, YOU WOULD SEE THE SOURCE OF BILLY GRAHAMS BELIEVE!!!

@ Enigma,

Romans 2:14-16

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So when Paul talked about those gentiles who fulfilled d requirements of the Law/ and d law being written in their hearts, was he refering to the laws in d koran, d laws in buddhaism, or d laws in hindusim

Wud God judge the hindu based on hindu laws, wud He judge d moslem based on moslem laws, wud He judge d buddhist based on buddhist laws Neih!!! The judgement of these ones are with them already; ",,,,,,,,,,,,,NO ONE WHO DENIES THE SON(JESUS CHRIST) HAS THE FATHER; WHOEVER ACKNOWLEDGES THE SON HAS THE FATHER ALSO" (1ST JOHN 2:22-23).

REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY WAY IS A CONDEMNATION ALREADY AND NO AMOUNT OF GOOD WORKS WUD SUBSTITUTE SALVATION BY GRACE THAT IS IN THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESSURECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

In the above scripture, Apostle Paul was pointing out to gentiles who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Saviour, that although they are/were not under the law of Moses (Jewish law), now that they have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord of their lives, the law has therefore been written in their hearts; hence, they wud be judged according to their conscience; and not according to the Law of Moses!!! And also the passage pointed out clearly that Jews who were/are still keeping Mosiac Laws, wud be judged by Mosiac laws!!!



That scripture is in no way inclusive of any other (I saw my friend Inesqr excited about inclusivity) that has not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord; Not accepting Jesus Christ implies you stand condemned, but for those gentiles that have accepted Jesus, they wud face the judgement throne of God to obtain their rewards, while Jews who have not accepted Jesus wud face judgement according to d law of Moses!

Stop spreading confusion and twisting scriptures to suit your unbelieve,,,,,,,,,, Just a kind advise!!!

Oh, tears almost dropped from my eyes while reading your various posts,  THIS IS TRUELY A GENERATION THAT HAVE FORGOTTEN HIS GOD AND NEGLETED HIS WORD [BIBLE] HOW ON EARTH DO U EXPECT SOMEONE WHO'S NOT BORN AGAIN, OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT AND HAVE'NT ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS HIS LORD AND PERSONAL SAVIOR TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD? THIS IS A GENERATION FILLED WITH FALSE TEACHER AND PROPHETS,  BE CAREFUL OF SATAN'S TRICKS:= DECEPTION!!!

Gunnaz007:

@ Enigma,
Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY WAY IS A CONDEMNATION ALREADY AND NO AMOUNT OF GOOD WORKS WUD SUBSTITUTE SALVATION BY GRACE THAT IS IN THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESSURECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

hence, they wud be judged according to their conscience; and not according to the Law of Moses!!! And also the passage pointed out clearly that Jews who were/are still keeping Mosiac Laws, wud be judged by Mosiac laws!!!

That scripture is in no way inclusive of any other (I saw my friend Inesqr excited about inclusivity) that has not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord; Not accepting Jesus Christ implies you stand condemned, but for those gentiles that have accepted Jesus, they wud face the judgement throne of God to obtain their rewards, while Jews who have not accepted Jesus wud face judgement according to d law of Moses!

@Gunnaz007:

I'm confused here. 1st you say they are a law unto themselves (not having knowledge of the law) and will be judged according to their conscience. But in the same breath, you say they are condemned already. Then you say Jews who have not accepted Jesus would be judged according to Moses.

Counting, you've given three criteria: [1] Conscience (which all humans have), [2] Jesus (which not all who have conscience have accepted), and [3] Moses (whose law has been superceded) - which contradicts your statement that Jesus is the only standard. There is even a fourth criteria implied which is those who have heard but not understood the Gospel (maybe this would be catered for by conscience anyway).

Care to discuss the contradictions above? Or please explain this -

[1] What happens to the guy who never heard of Jesus?
[2] What happens to the guy who heard but never understood?
[3] What happens to babies (who are totally selfish since they only care for their food and rest and will disturb anyone to get it and do not care about Jesus or even their mothers, just food and rest)?
[4] What happens to the Jew who finds the thought that Jesus is the Son of God contrary to his understanding of the torah?

@joe4christ:

please, your comments on the above would be very welcome