vaxx:
yoruba traditional religion is monotheistic , there are no several gods in yoruba tradition, what we have is simply orisha when you put it into Yoruba syllable, it is spell like this... ori- ti- a- sha(meaning, the head we specifically selected)traditionally our believe system is characterized by a deep sense of the interdependence of all life. “Every life form and element of Nature has an inner soul force – including rivers, rocks, clouds, metals, flowers, thunder, and the wind. These natural energies that comprise
are symbolically represented by the orisha. most of the orisha were once with us... for example. orunmila is from oke igbeti , he has a wife known as apetebi likewise sango the son of aganju and so many more of them that has earthly biological background like i and you.

To those who may want to know the reasons yoruba ATR IS MONOTHESTIC instead of deism, this is my reply.....

CuteMadridista:
Let's be charitable with each other please, each person should state his answer and we move to the next one

ATR doesn't have a Holy spirit that Christians communicates to every Christian so its okay if there are differences, even contradictions as no man is an island in this kind of thing

You said it! It's not all the same, which is what makes it so interesting.

vaxx:
To those who may want to know the reasons yoruba ATR IS MONOTHESTIC instead of deism, this is my reply.....

The "We" there shows they were selected by more than one being, who are those that do this selections? are they humans? and how does one become an orisha? is it destined by Olodumare or is there some works a human would to to become selected?

CuteMadridista:
Let's be charitable with each other please, each person should state his answer and we move to the next one

ATR doesn't have a Holy spirit that Christians claim communicates to every Christian so its okay if there are differences amongst ATR believers

people understanding of the faith is very superstitious , even the babalawos that knows the truth are not helping matters but enlightenment has come into it now, it is fast growing in the west particularly in the USA ..... finally when it is developed, the superstition will be separable from the reality. how will you feel, if you have been feed that egungun were really from heaven but you suddenly saw one being unmask at oja oba which happens to be your friend ? and the book i told you about, that is what i want to address.... this is a computer generation....brainwashing is a sin in my dictionary

Y'all, check this book out:
https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Nigeria-Reflections-Ifa-Initiate/dp/152131652X
Has anyone read this before? If not I recommend CuteMadridista check it out. To me it's very informative....

CuteMadridista:


The "We" there shows they were selected by more than one being, who are those that do this selections? are they humans? and how does one become an orisha? is it destined by Olodumare or is there some works a human would to to become selected?

olodumare has a being is without gender, but he is depicted as a single source, will it not make sense if the we or he is use.....

practically no one has seen olodumare including the orisha.... apart from orunmila who saw his buttocks lol, when he is in human form Oriunmila see a part of his buttocks after a
gigantic sacrifice at the sea.

In odu ifa Osa Otura
Ifa reavel how Olodumare reavel is buttock to orumila
Ifa said in Osa Otura
A ki ri idi okun
A ki ri Idi Osa
A ki ri idi Olodumare
Sugbon Eni to ba ko sinu omi
Ni o mon ibi ti omi mu ni de
Awon to ba ke ibosi ni won feju Yan Yan soke
Difa fun Orunmila
Nijo ti yio lo re ridi Olodumare
Ebo ni won ko Kara ale ko mase
Woni eti okun ni ko gbe ebo lo
Orunmila gbe ebo odi eti okun
Bi o se niki ki o gbe ebo sile lo wo Olodumare to bora le ni ihihoho
Olodumare ni iwo Orunmila?
Orunmila si dahun pe repo
Olodumare nje o ridi mi bayii ?
Orunmila ni ibi sikiti ibadi nikan na ni mori
Olodumare ni oda to ba je be ko si ohun ti o ko ni ridi mon laye
Orunmila ba n jo
I ba n you
Oni ohun pelu eledumare egbarigba.
TRANSLATION
No one unravel the mystery of the ocean
No one unravel the mystery of the sea
No one unravel they mystery of Olodumare

It one who immersed himself in the river
That knows the depth of the river
It is one who cry out for assistance
That will open his eye very wide to the sky
Ifa divination reading was performed for Orunmila
When ifa want see the buttocks of Olodumare
He ask will I discovered Olodumare secrets ,everything he asked ?
Orunmila was instructed to offer sacrifice
But he should take the sacrifice to the sea
As he was about to place it at the beach
He saw Olodumare put off his garment
He saw the buttocks

Because Olodumare was stark Unclad and was in human image
Olodumare ask Orunmila did you see me?
Orunmila answer yes
I only see plump part of your buttock
Olodumare then said since you see my buttocks
There is nothing on earth that you will not be able to unravel again
Orumila was dancing and very happy
so from this verse we can now deduce tha Olodumare is an invisible entity. You can communicate with him by using orisha of your choice as intermediary. OLODUMARE SELECT WHOMEVER HE WANT

FeelDeMusic:
Y'all, check this book out:
https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Nigeria-Reflections-Ifa-Initiate/dp/152131652X
Has anyone read this before? If not I recommend CuteMadridista check it out. To me it's very informative....

educate us a little on what you read there

vaxx:
educate us a little on what you read there

Well, it's by a woman named Deidre Prescod. She's from Trinidad, and she got initiated into the Ifa religion in Tobago I believe. The book basically describes this, as well as her time spent in Nigeria climbing the Ifa chain, if you will... she's now an iyanifa and reads odu.. the book details a whole bunch of odu and the proper ebo for them, it also details the Yoruba belief system and what everything means, it really doesn't say much about ebo in general like what you explained, as Orisa don't eat the ebo or do anything with them... it didn't mention that. It talked about manifestations of Orisa, like one woman could take on the personality of Olokun and another could take on the personality of Sango.

FeelDeMusic:

Well, it's by a woman named Deidre Prescod. She's from Trinidad, and she got initiated into the Ifa religion in Tobago I believe. The book basically describes this, as well as her time spent in Nigeria climbing the Ifa chain, if you will... she's now an iyanifa and reads odu.. the book details a whole bunch of odu and the proper ebo for them, it also details the Yoruba belief system and what everything means, it really doesn't say much about ebo in general like what you explained, as Orisa don't eat the ebo or do anything with them... it didn't mention that. It talked about manifestations of Orisa, like one woman could take on the personality of Olokun and another could take on the personality of Sango.

interesting

vaxx:
when affliction befall a man, the first things the babalawo do is consulting ifa (oracle) to a ascertain the reason behind the calamity, since individual ori are difference, so the person ori will determine what the babalawo will do, it may be simple ritual cleaning in form of ebos and prayer or simply . a lay down instruction so that the person will lnot commit taboo. sometimes this calamity are bllessing in disguise, and to be noted the ebos is a symbolical representation,no orisha eat sacrifice.... the most important is droping bad habit for good ones....that is why it normally comes with taboo ...

If I understand you
You are saying that: when a person has a problem (caused by Ajogun)
1. A divination is made through IFA to ascertain the nature of the malevolent spirit and the solution required
2. The solution may require
a. A change of habit/character
b. A sacrifice (appeasement)
c. Prayers ( to whom? The Ajogun?)
3. The Ajogun isn't forced out.

If these are correct, can you confirm that what Christians call demons are what the Yoruba ATR call Ajogun (emissaries of Esu)?

If Ajoguns are not demons, what are the Yoruba equivalence for Demons?

The Yoruba Bible will refer to Demons as Emi Esu (spirits of Esu): which I think means the Ajogun. How true is this?

Thanks

CuteMadridista: This troublemaker, attention seeker and scammer...

LWKMD

shadeyinka:

If I understand you
You are saying that: when a person has a problem (caused by Ajogun)
1. A divination is made through IFA to ascertain the nature of the malevolent spirit and the solution required
2. The solution may require
a. A change of habit/character
b. A sacrifice (appeasement)
c. Prayers ( to whom? The Ajogun?)
3. The Ajogun isn't forced out.

If these are correct, can you confirm that what Christians call demons are what the Yoruba ATR call Ajogun (emissaries of Esu)?

If Ajoguns are not demons, what are the Yoruba equivalence for Demons?

The Yoruba Bible will refer to Demons as Emi Esu (spirits of Esu): which I think means the Ajogun. How true is this?
your
Thanks

No, do not misinterpret me, i never said human problem are caused by ajagun, ajagun and his war lord are symbolical representation of negative force... they are as well important in Yoruba cosmology.... you cannot blame your predicament on someone or anything else because olodumare give us the ase(sango) to trancend every obstacle, and if we have not transcended it, it is because you have failed to make the right decision at the crossroad.... esu is simply the decision/indecision you make not a demons as the Yoruba bible dictate it .so a force to change is required...

prayers are offer to olodumare thru orisha, all human concept of negative force are created by olodumare including death..... yoruba do not have the concept of demons ....

shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

0temSapien:
LWKMD

What does this mean?

vaxx:
No, do not misinterpret me, i never said human problem are caused by ajagun, ajagun and his war lord are symbolical representation of negative force... they are as well important in Yoruba cosmology.... you cannot blame your predicament on someone or anything else because olodumare give us the ase(sango) to trancend every obstacle, and if we have not transcended it, it is because you have failed to make the right decision at the crossroad.... esu is simply the decision/indecision you make not a demons as the Yoruba bible dictate it .so a force to change is required...

prayers are offer to olodumare thru orisha, all human concept of negative force are created by olodumare including death..... yoruba do not have the concept of demons ....

Oh geez. This guy won't just stop. Are you an indigenous Yoruba guy/girl? Please if you are an initiate, you need to polish your submission with backup from Ifa. And if at all you are not an initiate,you should at least try to reference your post from the Babalawo you heard or learnt most of the things you keep reeling out from. Seriously, when you try to swindle your way out, you set yourself into more confusion.

Ifa was right in one of it sayings in Otuurupon that goes thus; Omode ati Ogberi o le mo awoo Egun, afi bi a ba fawo han won (a child and non-initiate cannot know the secret of Egun unless such is review to him). You are just a proud sheeple (like the Ogboni do say) for mentioning that Egngun is a simply a man hiding under veil.

For your information and sake of those you are misleading, Aje and Ajogun are foes of Mankind and the Orishas too. Prof. Wande Abimbola, a renowned Babalawo from the South West Nigeria quoted in his book, Ohun Enu Ifa, and Oju Odu Merindinlogun verses from Ifa that emphasize on Ajogun. In these books, one would understand the nature of Ajogun that it has nothing benevolent to grant humanity. These Ajogun are eight in number. They are: iku(death), arun(diseases), ofo(loses), Egba(discord), oran(calamity), epe(curses), ewon(imprisonment), ese(mishap). The leader or the divinity that can order around these Ajogun is Esu.

Esu is a primordial divinity who serves as the Inspector General of Ebo, the keeper of ase and the master of trickery and confusion. He is believed to be the author of confusion, capable of creating enmity between two good friends. He has the authority to unleash Ajogun, his agents, on the person who decline to push them away through Ebo. This is confirmed with Ifa sayngs that goes thus; Eni rubo ni Esu ngbe
Riru ebo ni gbe ni
Airu ki i gbeeyan
(Esu only support those who appease with Ebo
Appeasement through Ebo is an advantage
Refusal is a disadvantage).

It is only with Ebo that one can evade the wrath of Eleye and Ajogun.

In Odu corpus called Irete-Egutan, there is story there about the activity of Esu. The excerpt says that Esu, Orunmila and Aje (eleye) were friends. They were walking together and heard some noise distance away. The noise was from three brothers and sounded like a cry as if people carried corpse from a distant. They all went into hiding because it was a taboo to see corpse. Aje found out and informed her other friends that those wailing carried a dead deer, which they thought it is human corpse. Afterward, they agreed to trail those crying to their home so that they can verify if they are truly pretending. When they got there, Esu, the trickster, was tasked to investigate Aje alleged claim. He did by approaching the brothers house as a young lady so as to have a view of what the brothers had inside, but she was stopped. Esu again attempted approaching as an old man, he was stopped and sent back. He finally appeared as a little baby and crept in. The brothers thought he is a baby and let him in. But Esu spiedand saw that Aje allegation was truth. He reported back to Aje and Orunmila that those three brothers cries is a pretense. Aje became enraged and suggested that they kill these brothers by taking them one each. Esu and Aje killed their own victim. But the third brother brought a sacrifice, comprising the meat of the deer, yam and palm oil, to Orunmila. Orunmila accepted this sacrifice and hid the young man in his house. He cooked the meat and prepare Pounded yam, and he invited Esu and Aje to come and share his own victim with him. When they came, he told them it was his habit to regurgitate whatever he eats. And they all ate together. The following day, Orunmila visited Esu and Aje with the young man. Esu and Aje were annoyed and accused Orunmila for behaving treacherously. Orunmila defended himself by saying that he had already informed that he vomited whatever he ate.

From this story, certain facts need to be given consideration. First is the action of Esu. As in many cases, he employed treacherous tricks to discover what the men were doing.

Secondly, the closeness of Esu and Orunmila is emphasized in the story. As we can observe, both are closely related although their relationship cannot be strictly defined because of ambiguity. But here Esu acted as the agent of confusion, destruction while Orunmila acted as agent of peace and salvation. Esu killed the brother alloted to him while Orunmila saved his. The youngest brother survival was as a result of the Ebo performed. The Ebo invariably removed the malevolent eyes from his life. Ifa confirm characteristics in many verses.

Esu mase mi o (Esu do not endanger me)
Omo elomi ni o se (Endanger someone else)
Pa ado asubi da. (Turn around my suffering).

The above prayer in Ifa shows that Esu can unleash his agents on one to bring life endangering issue into one's life.

On the side of Orunmila, it is a knowledge in the general public that Orunmila is the Odudu ti n di ori emere, t'o tun ori eni ti o sunwon se. Ao kí n gbo buburu lenu Abore.


Thirdly, the story reveal that Aje or Eleye are foes of Human. Ifa verses authenticate this by praising them as:

Iyami Osoronga (My Mother Osoronga)
Apanimowaagun, olokiki oru (The one who kill without any stress, who reign in the dark of the night)
Ajedo tutu mo bi (The one who eat fresh liver without vomiting)
Obirin kukuru regi regi (the short, robust lady)
Eyi ti i lo nigba oja ba tu (that visit the market after it has been deserted)
Ori mi gba mi lowo awon Eleye (My Ori should save me from Eleye).



The primary importance of sacrifice is revealed in the story. Ifa holds that Ebo is a peparation to appease Ajogun and also exchange. It means that Ajogun must feast on something. When there is nothing to feast on, they take charge on Men. But with Ẹbọ, we can replace Men with stuff the Ẹbọ is prepared with. When an Ebo is prepared and accepted by Ajogun, there is certainty that they would retreat.

An Ifa verse goes thus:

Baba gbulu erin (Baba intercept Elephant)
Baba keso efon (Baba interfect Deer)
Ogbonrangandan nidahun omo odo (Ogbonrangandan is the response of pestle)
Ba m' madiee mi abapa yabuge (Bring me my Hen that flap it wings)
Yewu kan soso o le gbó kùnrin meji (A room cannot contain two men)
Paaropaaro, awo ile Elepe (Exchange, the secret of Elepe land)
A dia fun Elepe (Cast Ifa for Elepe)
Won ni o fi odidi eran paaro araa re (He was instructed to exchange himself with a goat)
Nítorí Ajogun (Because of Ajogun)
Ki Iku ma ba pa (so that death will not conquer him)
O gbo riru ebo (he heard the instruction passed to make the sacrifice)
O ru (he obliged)
O gbo eru atukesu (He heard the instructions passed to make atonement to Esu)
O ru (He obliged)
O gbo ikaraa ebo ha fun un (he followed all the instructions laid down concerning the sacrifice)
O waa n yin awon awoo re (He then praises his Awo)
Awon awo re yin Ifa (His Awo praise Ifa)
O ya enu koto (He opened his mouth)
Orin awo lo bo si lenu (And the Awo song pour out)
Ese ti o na (The leg he stretched)
Ijo ni fa a (It quickly turn to dance step)
O ni bee gege (He passed decree)
Ni awon awo oun n ssnu reree pe Ifa (That his awo will call unto Ifa with good mouth)
Iku waa Elepee ni le (Death searched for Elepe in his house)
Ori eran lo mi lo (But went away with Goat head)
Paaro paaro, awo ile Eleepe (The exchanger, àwo of Elepe land)
Arun wa Eleepe re le (Diseases searched for Elepe in his house)
Ori eran lo mu lo (But he went with Goat head)
Paaro paaro, awo ile Eleepe (Exchanger, the secret of Elepe household)
......

The stories, verses from Ifa and common sayings among Yoruba people negate alot of your grounds.

1. Eledumare was not mentioned in any story or verses. This shows that He does not interfare directly in the affair of Mankind and what befalls them. This points that Eledumare is a Deistic conceptual God.

2. Monotheism is a believe that there is only one God who created the world and intervene directly in the affair of the world. In Yoruba spirituality, the assignment of creating the world was pass on Obatala and later undertook by Oduduwa. Most importantly, there are 401 Gods in Yoruba spirituality. So I do not really know where the heck you get your monotheism in Orisha system from.

3. Ajogun are malevolent agents. They do not give anyone anything other than sorrow, tears and pain. The principal of the Ajoguns is Death and just like every other agents, they have nk benevolent attribute to mankind. The only known way of resisting them from inflicting their evil on us is through Ebo.

4. Surprisingly, you keep mentioning a negative force and trying hard to separate it from demon. I think this doesn't add up because a negative force is malevolent just like Demons who are also Malevolent agents. For example, Demons bring misfortune, just like Ajogun do. Therefore, we can say that Ajogun is a demon.

5. You are also trying to blame Ajogun on human. Don't you know animals and plants die too? Do they not get sick? Can you explain how the infliction of Ajogun on animal and plant an effect from Man wrong behaviour?

Tise ti se ni obuko fi n ba iya sun (An Ajogun called Mishap caused he goat to have sex with his mother)
Tise ti ṣe ni omo odo fi n lu iya e (An ajogún called mishap caused pestle to beat his mother)

These two figures are not human but Ajogun still struck them. Would you blame human misbehavior for their infliction?

vaxx:
shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

Another bullhii iit from Vaxx.

There is no Babalawo that would ask you to fast and pray. Where are you getting all these crap from?

Oh I see. You only copy this garbage from African American website and showcase it as if you are an authority.
http://www.akamara.com.br/cosmology_id1.htm
Pheww.

Orisha a gbe e

FeelDeMusic:
What does this mean?

Laugh Wan Kill Me Die

0temSapien:
Laugh Wan Kill Me Die

Ah, ok. Well I'm not an expert in Pidgin yet (LOL)!

FOLYKAZE:


Another bullhii iit from Vaxx.

There is no Babalawo that would ask you to fast and pray. Where are you getting all these crap from?

Oh I see. You only copy this garbage from African American website and showcase it as if you are an authority.
http://www.akamara.com.br/cosmology_id1.htm
Pheww.

Orisha a gbe e

Hmmm, well Folykaze, you make a very interesting case and, from all of the information you've provided on this thread, perhaps you're a bit more truthful than Vaxx is. Again, I really can't say yes or no as I'm not extremely familiar with Ifa so I can't really say whether either of you is truly right in what you both say.

Also on the concept of aje/iyami, Vaxx proposed that they are not evil necessarily, but that they are not good either. They have powers both good and bad, and, from the book that I've read, the Yoruba believe that they control the world. Is this true?

Macof please come in ooo!

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, are you an Ifa believer? Shadyyinka, are you a Christian? CuteMadridista, what are you? I'm not asking this out of malace, just wanting to know beliefs so that I can get a better perspective here on where everyone is coming from.

@Vaxx, interesting response.

Of course shadeyinka is a Christian!

Just here for knowledge sake!

FeelDeMusic:

Ok.. so yes and no? You don't really believe in God but you enjoy the Yoruba spiritual system, am I correct?

I have met a spiritual atheist once. They don't believe in one God who created everything but they believe there are powers, incantations, etc.

To them, its a personal grudge against God (I think caused by a loss in the past where God "failed" to intervene). Some of them see God as the selfish spirit who want to claim sovereignty over what over a thousand spirit created. Many of them used to be fairly serious believer in God in the past.

Complex!

vaxx:
cutemadridista how do understand this, is there any problems with been sincere while writing. i am trying as much as possible to separate superstition from reality.....that is only what i did here

Yes!, Egungun may be symbolic yet real. The human personality behind the Egungun is supposed to be possessed by the spirits of the ancestor (ara orun). So, basically, an Egungun is from the spirit realm.

There was a similar symbolism my Father talked to me about. This happened last almost 80 years ago from my home town Oko. It was an assembly of men from all over the Yoruba land and they all go on a journey to Orun . During their departure, they each will have a fire built for them. Anyone whose fire dies (for the duration of the journey which usually is several weeks) dies (doesn't return).

Did they really go to the spiritual realm? Was it a cleansing festival where judgement is served to the "troubles of each community"? But to everyone, Oko re Orun/ Yoruba re Orun! (Oko went to Heaven/ Yoruba went to Heaven- literal translation)

vaxx:
No, do not misinterpret me, i never said human problem are caused by ajagun, ajagun and his war lord are symbolical representation of negative force... they are as well important in Yoruba cosmology.... you cannot blame your predicament on someone or anything else because olodumare give us the ase(sango) to trancend every obstacle, and if we have not transcended it, it is because you have failed to make the right decision at the crossroad.... esu is simply the decision/indecision you make not a demons as the Yoruba bible dictate it .so a force to change is required...

prayers are offer to olodumare thru orisha, all human concept of negative force are created by olodumare including death..... yoruba do not have the concept of demons ....

I think you are confusing me here. You seem to be saying that none of the Yoruba gods exist as entities/personalities but symbolic representations( especially with respect to the Agoguns).

But, this seem to be against reality for in the case of "Begun Sango" (possession by sangos spirit), there is nothing symbolic about it. Sango actually possesses the adherent.

Hence, I find it difficult seeing everything in terms of symbolic representation. I think Agoguns are real spiritual emissaries of the real spiritual Esu.

I know that you are trying hard not to "demonize" the Yoruba gods.

shadeyinka:

Of course shadeyinka is a Christian!

Just here for knowledge sake!

Haha, ok. Nothing wrong in that friend.

vaxx:
shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

TO, those who are interested in knowing the truth, may extract this copy and seek from a known babalawo in their area to ascertain how true it is the quote....and they sure endeavor to get back to us d d .... cutemadridista , you actually let me see this thread as a set up which i am very disappointed .i am still willing to honor those people who will not see this discussion as a gateway to cause online bullying or intellectual dishonest.

shadeyinka:


I think you are confusing me here. You seem to be saying that none of the Yoruba gods exist as entities/personalities but symbolic representations( especially with respect to the Agoguns).

But, this seem to be against reality for in the case of "Begun Sango" (possession by sangos spirit), there is nothing symbolic about it. Sango actually possesses the adherent.

Hence, I find it difficult seeing everything in terms of symbolic representation. I think Agoguns are real spiritual emissaries of the real spiritual Esu.

I know that you are trying hard not to "demonize" the Yoruba gods.

it should be noted that yoruba do not have gods but orisha, orisha do not simply means gods, the best acceptable translation shouild be energy or force.... All orisha were human who once live on earth, for example orunmila is from oke igbeti in osun state , he has a wife name apatebi and likewise sango who is a son to aganju ..... yoruba traditionally follow a symbolically format like most religion, we represent most of the universal element with object associate with this orisha when they were practically living in form of human.... for example ogun was known as hunter who is very good with the use of iron and likewise sango was known with his use of fire. all these element they made use were known for are what we use to symbolically represent them... with the ajogun case i will employ you to seek knowledge outside this forum for more learning since you were unable to see logic and truth from my position... i cannot force you to accept it....

Again, yoruba do not have gods but orisha ..... it is time we separate truth from falsehood.... it is time will separate superstition from reality.... that is my aim on this subject.....

vaxx:
TO, those who are interested in knowing the truth, may extract this copy and seek from a known babalawo in their area to ascertain how true it is the quote....and they sure endeavor to get back to us d d .... cutemadridista , you actually let me see this thread as a set up which i am very disappointed .i am still willing to honor those people who will not see this discussion as a gateway to cause online bullying or intellectual dishonest.

Honestly speaking, I never made the thread with the intention of setting you up. I never called Folykaze nor posted a link to this thread anywhere

Please from now on I'll advice you give whatever answer you want to give and move on to the next question. No need for arguments and if someone has a different answer, let him/her give his/hers too and move to the next question. You guys are talking to dummies as far as ATR is concerned so these arguments would actually lead nowhere as the dummies can't know who's really right or wrong

what I see happening between both of you is akin to 2 professors arguing which is true between A theory and B theory of time in an audience comprising of 5 year olds

Let's stop the arguments and give whatever answers we want to give then move to next question

NB: I haven't posted here since cuz I like taking my time to read and digest your replies carefully which is why I said this thread would last very long

Vaxx/Folykaze, what about the concept of irunmole? Aren't they spiritual beings that were never human? I read in the book that Orisa like Orunmila, Osun, Sango, Esu.... it said they were all irunmole.

shadeyinka:


Yes!, Egungun may be symbolic yet real. The human personality behind the Egungun is supposed to be possessed by the spirits of the ancestor (ara orun). So, basically, an Egungun is from the spirit realm.

There was a similar symbolism my Father talked to me about. This happened last almost 80 years ago from my home town Oko. It was an assembly of men from all over the Yoruba land and they all go on a journey to Orun . During their departure, they each will have a fire built for them. Anyone whose fire dies (for the duration of the journey which usually is several weeks) dies (doesn't return).

Did they really go to the spiritual realm? Was it a cleansing festival where judgement is served to the "troubles of each community"? But to everyone, Oko re Orun/ Yoruba re Orun! (Oko went to Heaven/ Yoruba went to Heaven- literal translation)

yes it is real, because the veneration of the ancestors (Egungun) is central to Orisa spirituality. However, the superstitious that come with it , is what i am separating like doing rituals on an altar and thinking egungun are actually from heaven is the basic veneration. and If you don't go further than that, the Egungun will be insulted or the veneration is uncompleted,The true veneration of the Egungun is to perpetuate their name and deeds into the present. i like your beautiful story, it shows you actually get how symbolism play a vital role in yoruba ATR...perhaps if you still have a dad or someone knowledgeable on the subject, you can compare what i am saying with what he is saying..... expecting more question from you ....

CuteMadridista:


Honestly speaking, I never made the thread with the intention of setting you up. I never called Folykaze nor posted a link to this thread anywhere

Please from now on I'll advice you give whatever answer you want to give and move on to the next question. No need for arguments and if someone has a different answer, let him/her give his/hers too and move to the next question. You guys are talking to dummies as far as ATR is concerned so these arguments would actually lead nowhere as the dummies can't know who's really right or wrong

what I see happening between both of you is akin to 2 professors arguing which is true between A theory and B theory of time in an audience comprising of 5 year olds

Let's stop the arguments and give whatever answers we want to give then move to next question

NB: I haven't posted here since cuz I like taking my time to read and digest your replies carefully which is why I said this thread would last very long

the subject iis very difficult because it was not documented unlike other religion which has its own books... most of what people known are from oral literature..... that is why it is better to argue on what is truly practical in the nature of reality, intuition and logic... i will never embrace superstition.. never ..... i stay in the west , and i realize most Yoruba adherent seriously still lives with superstition ....

vaxx:
it should be noted that yoruba do not have gods but orisha, orisha do not simply means gods, the best acceptable translation shouild be energy or force.... All orisha were human who once live on earth, for example orunmila is from oke igbeti in osun state , he has a wife name apatebi and likewise sango who is a son to aganju ..... yoruba traditionally follow a symbolically format like most religion, we represent most of the universal element with object associate with this orisha when they were practically living in form of human.... for example ogun was known as hunter who is very good with the use of iron and likewise sango was known with his use of fire. all these element they made use were known for are what we use to symbolically represent them... with the ajogun case i will employ you to seek knowledge outside this forum for more learning since you were unable to see logic and truth from my position... i cannot force you to accept it....

Again, yoruba do not have gods but orisha ..... it is time we separate truth from falsehood.... it is time will separate superstition from reality.... that is my aim on this subject.....

I think you are bent on forcing new definitions in order to "purify" the thoughts and knowledge about the Yoruba ATR.

Orisa are deities who are worshiped by the Yoruba's
Deities are non other than gods because they are worshiped.

We have Oju'bo (a place to sacrifice/worship) Ogun. Every sacrifice I know is to a god.

I know you would havebloved to redefine Orisa as "selected heads- literal) but no! Orisa does not mean selected heads. Yoruba is a tonal language and as such Orisa (do do do) does not mean Orisa (re mi do). They mean different things.

You saying that Yoruba's don't have gods but orisa is akin to saying that Yoruba's don't get angry they only can Bi'nu.

I think the Yoruba gods are just like the Greek gods. Not just energy fields or force. Some pure humans, some a hybrid between humans and gods and some are gods , from Zeus himself