FeelDeMusic:

Ok.. so you're trying to basically make a case that Esu is equivalent to Satan because the Yoruba Bible says so? Hmmmm..... well I honestly don't see what that has to do with anything. Perhaps Satanists feel the same about the devil, but, again, how does this relate? Basically you're just making a comparison that's pretty weak in my opinion. Of course people, no matter what sort of god/supreme being they believe in, they will think exactly what you just said the Satanists do, I mean come on dude. I've done some research on Esu before and Folykaze is right.. he's sort of a mixed guy.. he can bless but he can also curse, he can bring joy but he can also cause havoc. He is not like Satan though, he isn't anti Olodumare as someone said.. in fact he's basically one of the closest adversaries to Olodumare...

Please do a research on how Judaism regards Satan and you'd have a chuckle on those who keep binding and casting Satan. I implore you to do the research

shadeyinka:

Even in India as you have chosen to make it an example, eating or killing of a cow is a SIN against "Mother Cow". Its still a violation of the rule even though no one is hurt in the process.

Isn't the cow hurt? Didn't you read when I included nature as part of what we sin against? Have you not read of trees crying? Certain cultures might regard cutting certain trees as taboos just as in India it's a taboo to kill a cow. ¢_ My point is that sin is totally earthbound for me. Nothing about disobeying heaven.

FeelDeMusic:

Yeah, this is basically what I tried to explain LOL! But I wonder why some things aren't explained? Are you saying this because you yourself don't know all of the conditions of a blood bond?

It depends on who you make the bond with.

If the spirit entity in interested in holding you with or without your will, then you wouldn't know the full terms of the agreement.

However, if the spiritual entity is all for your favour and is not interested in holding you against your will then there is no reason to "hide clauses" that will control you.

For example, God will not destroy my life if I choose to disown Him. If I choose to disown God, He would not destroy my business, nor my family nor anything. I would be free to go.

Not so with demons. For by your sacrifice, you unknowingly sell yourself to them.

Mujtahida:

Isn't the cow hurt? Didn't you read when I included nature as part of what we sin against? Have you not read of trees crying? Certain cultures might regard cutting certain trees as taboos just as in India it's a taboo to kill a cow. ¢_ My point is that sin is totally earthbound for me. Nothing about disobeying heaven.

"Mother Cow" isn't just the cow but the concept of "our Mother".

I still think since you don't believe in any spirit, the concept of sin or violation of a spirits command shouldn't exist for you.

But if that's how you want to define sin, so be it (for this thread)

shadeyinka:

It depends on who you make the bond with.

If the spirit entity in interested in holding you with or without your will, then you wouldn't know the full terms of the agreement.

However, if the spiritual entity is all for your favour and is not interested in holding you against your will then there is no reason to "hide clauses" that will control you.

For example, God will not destroy my life if I choose to disown Him. If I choose to disown God, He would not destroy my business, nor my family nor anything. I would be free to go.

Not so with demons. For by your sacrifice, you unknowingly sell yourself to them.

All right. Well that's what you believe in, which is ok. I myself honestly do not have really any experience with ATR so I can't really speak on this concept well. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can, mainly for the purposes of writing a fantasy story involving a lot of concepts from Yoruba mythology.

FeelDeMusic:

All right. Well that's what you believe in, which is ok. I myself honestly do not have really any experience with ATR so I can't really speak on this concept well. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can, mainly for the purposes of writing a fantasy story involving a lot of concepts from Yoruba mythology.

Why don't you find some books by D.O. Fagunwa. The books might help you write some good story.

Ogboju Ode ni inu Igbo Irunmale
Igbo Olodumare
Ireke Onibudo

The books are in Yoruba, but you have the advantage that they are old (written in the 1950s -60s). So, fairly pure from modern influence.

Although the books seem influenced by the Greek Odessy. But there are great similarities between the Yoruba gods and the Greek gods.

Mujtahida:

Is ATR compatible with science?

That is my aim on this thread, i am trying to position how Yoruba ATR can be appreciate from philosophical and scientific point of view. but to authority answer your question if Yoruba ATR can be compatible with science, i will let prof sophie handle that....take your time and enjoy the short video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zsq3FSMof8

shadeyinka:


Why don't you find some books by D.O. Fagunwa. The books might help you write some good story.

Ogboju Ode ni inu Igbo Irunmale
Igbo Olodumare
Ireke Onibudo

The books are in Yoruba, but you have the advantage that they are old (written in the 1950s -60s). So, fairly pure from modern influence.

Although the books seem influenced by the Greek Odessy. But there are great similarities between the Yoruba gods and the Greek gods.

That's what I keep hearing. Fascinating!

FeelDeMusic:

That's what I keep hearing. Fascinating!

Are you Yoruba? Or can you read Yoruba language?

I am not sure if the books have English translations

vaxx:
According to Yoruba cultural myth, we also believe they are some unseen natural element that dwells in the tree , rocks and some other mystical dwelling places, they are called EBORA, IWIN, egbere.... there is a myth that if you can collect egbere mat, you will suddenly become rich, this egbere cries without pause. that is just is nature

I've they been able to properly understand the difference between Ebora, Iwin and Imole

shadeyinka:


Are you Yoruba? Or can you read Yoruba language?

I am not sure if the books have English translations

LOL I'm not Yoruba in the slightest, in fact I'm not even black! I'm just very interested in this sort of mythology and spirituality as well as African cultures and peoples in general.

macof:


I've they been able to properly understand the difference between Ebora, Iwin and Imole

Elaborate more on these "unseen beings" please Macof! Are they equivalent to fairies/elves/gnomes in British/European folklore?

FeelDeMusic:

Elaborate more on these "unseen beings" please Macof! Are they equivalent to fairies/elves/gnomes in British/European folklore?

Going by my limited knowledge I would say Ebora is a generic term for all "unseen beings"
I have heard Esu refered to as an Ebora. Yemoja as an Ebora...and when these two can be Ebora then all Orisha in certain context are Ebora

Sidenote: in the Igala language, Ebo is the word for Diety...as the word "orisha" is absent in the language

Imole/Umale as a word appears to be a less ancient word than Ebora/Ebo..and refers particularly to spirits associated with natural elements e.g.. Imole Okun. Spirit of the ocean.

Iwin have a more anthropomorphic representation, they sometimes interact with humans in the forest. They may be spirits of the dead that still linger around

macof:


Going by my limited knowledge I would say Ebora is a generic term for all "unseen beings"
I have heard Esu refered to as an Ebora. Yemoja as an Ebora...and when these two can be Ebora then all Orisha in certain context are Ebora

Sidenote: in the Igala language, Ebo is the word for Diety...as the word "orisha" is absent in the language

Imole/Umale as a word appears to be a less ancient word than Ebora/Ebo..and refers particularly to spirits associated with natural elements e.g.. Imole Okun. Spirit of the ocean.

Iwin have a more anthropomorphic representation, they sometimes interact with humans in the forest. They may be spirits of the dead that still linger around

Hmmm, interesting!

vaxx:
To those who may want to know the reasons yoruba ATR IS MONOTHESTIC instead of deism, this is my reply.....

There are elements of it all
Deism
Pantheism
Polytheism
Monotheism
Etc

Isese is not a religion itself, people just make religion out of it and take whatever theological philosophy from the above mentioned that suits them

macof:


There are elements of it all
Deism
Pantheism
Polytheism
Monotheism
Etc

Isese is not a religion itself, people just make religion out of it and take whatever theological philosophy from the above mentioned that suits them

if religion can be defined as a cultural system of a designated behavior and practices. then isese is a religion, i agree it is not an organized religion like Christianity and Islam that is confined into a set of conduct through writing texts.... i will call isese unstructured religion.

majority of the scholars agree isese is monotheism....

FeelDeMusic:
Vaxx/Folykaze, what about the concept of irunmole? Aren't they spiritual beings that were never human? I read in the book that Orisa like Orunmila, Osun, Sango, Esu.... it said they were all irunmole.

Irunmole - 400 Imole

400 Imole are present on earth, 400 in the heavens..there is also an extra one to make 801 but I'm unclear about that extra one... I have come across people claiming it is the Ooni, some claim it's Olodumare

Orunmila, Sango, Osun were humans, gifted individuals who were experts in their field. And every aspect of the natural world is run by the power of an Imole.

For example take Osanyin, He was the greatest healer of his time and of any known before him.. when he died people built a fellowship around his methods and he became an Orisha... now Osanyin or not, in yoruba culture there is a spirit behind healing, but this spirit lacks personality or any form of personification, the life and times of Osanyin becomes the personification of that Spirit

vaxx:
if religion can be defined as a cultural system of a designated behavior and practices. then isese is a religion, i agree it is not an organized religion like Christianity and Islam that is confined into a set of conduct through writing texts.... i will call isese unstructured religion.

majority of the scholars agree isese is monotheism....

Is Capitalism a religion? Because cultural system of a designated behavior and practices can mean anything

Isese is not a religion. That people make religions out of it doesn't make it a religion

Judaism today is a religion but it's source and history is not

Because it suits those scholars, if I wasn't so open minded I would be claiming isese is Pantheism because the pantheistic elements suit me

macof:


Irunmole - 400 Imole

400 Imole are present on earth, 400 in the heavens..there is also an extra one to make 801 but I'm unclear about that extra one... I have come across people claiming it is the Ooni, some claim it's Olodumare

Orunmila, Sango, Osun were humans, gifted individuals who were experts in their field. And every aspect of the natural world is run by the power of an Imole.

For example take Osanyin, He was the greatest healer of his time and of any known before him.. when he died people built a fellowship around his methods and he became an Orisha... now Osanyin or not, in yoruba culture there is a spirit behind healing, but this spirit lacks personality or any form of personification, the life and times of Osanyin becomes the personification of that Spirit

Ok, that's neat.

macof:


I've they been able to properly understand the difference between Ebora, Iwin and Imole

Yoruba culturally believes we are not alone, we believes in other existence of other creature whom olodumare gives the ability to dwell in places like tree, rocks , water and the rest.....this being are call ebora or iwin, both of them are applicable but with different concept..sometimes, the being that dwells in the tree can be name oro inu igi or the ones that is believe to live in the forest are called iwin inu igbo while ebora itself is just a name that can be given to strong forces that is difficult or mystical like enigma in English(my opinion, i am open to correction on this assertion).

As for the imole, i think it needs to do with yoruba dialect, in ondo state for instance, imole are used instead of orisha.... for instance in akure
they do referred to ogun as imole ogun,i am not a native of akure yoruba speaker, therefore it will be difficult for me translating the language..(i will seek for clarification on it) this terms are difficult to address now because they are little scholarly report on it.

macof:


Is Capitalism a religion? Because cultural system of a designated behavior and practices can mean anything

Isese is not a religion. That people make religions out of it doesn't make it a religion

Judaism today is a religion but it's source and history is not

Because it suits those scholars, if I wasn't so open minded I would be claiming isese is Pantheism because the pantheistic elements suit me

No, capitalism is not confined into sacred or any set of divinity, it is simply a social system...

The motive of individual in religion is to attract this cultural system and practices as way of life
The motive of individual or sate in capitalism is to attract profit..... therefore there is gap in your assertion....

i myself do not feel comfortable subscribing to the idea that ATR IS RELIGION but after given in second thought, i just need to agree...

before i go further, why do you think isese is not a religion, maybe we can start from there? and how will you define religion in Yoruba context?

vaxx:
No, capitalism is not confined into sacred or any set of divinity, it is simply a social system...

The motive of individual in religion is to attract this cultural system and practices as way of life
The motive of individual or sate in capitalism is to attract profit..... therefore there is gap in your assertion....

i myself do not feel comfortable subscribing to the idea that ATR IS RELIGION but after given in second thought, i just need to agree...

before i go further, why do you think isese is not a religion, maybe we can start from there? and how will you define religion in Yoruba context?

Why are you shifting your definition of religion? Earlier you gave a definition that capitalism fits into.

Religion is simply a system of devotion and worship. That is actually what it means from old french language
Isese is not a system of devotion and worship not everyone who adheres to isese principles and philosophies are devoted or worship a deity
People create their system of devotion and worship from isese

FeelDeMusic:

LOL I'm not Yoruba in the slightest, in fact I'm not even black! I'm just very interested in this sort of mythology and spirituality as well as African cultures and peoples in general.

That's impressive. Are you an American?

I hope you can watch some video's by Hubert Ogunde. I how you'll be able to find it. Ogunde

Movies like
Jaiye 'sinmi (Let the Earth Rest)
Aiye. (He World- mysterious)

His movies are rich and not influenced much by contemporary Yoruba traditions. We hardly get the movies to view in Nigeria but you may be lucky to see it in a library or movie archive in US.

macof:


Why are you shifting your definition of religion? Earlier you gave a definition that capitalism fits into.

Religion is simply a system of devotion and worship. That is actually what it means from old french language
Isese is not a system of devotion and worship not everyone who adheres to isese principles and philosophies are devoted or worship a deity
People create their system of devotion and worship from isese

i am not shifting, i am only shifting in elements that differ both of them....i see you realize the definition suit capitalism as well, hence i need to shift in clarification...my definition is from a philosophical point of view and not from the morphology in grammar...

as i said , isese to me is unstructured religion because it do not fall into set of standard that an organized religions adhere, everyone is free to choose the method that suit him/her base on the orisha they subscribe to in their home..

A songo adherent will have a different concept from osun adherent and likewise obatala, but that does not mean he/she does not acknowledge the both...each devotion is demonstrated on the practises each orisha required, ogun devotee is clearly different from songo devotee...

i am awaiting your response on the question posed earlier?

shadeyinka:

That's impressive. Are you an American?

I hope you can watch some video's by Hubert Ogunde. I how you'll be able to find it. Ogunde

Movies like
Jaiye 'sinmi (Let the Earth Rest)
Aiye. (He World- mysterious)

His movies are rich and not influenced much by contemporary Yoruba traditions. We hardly get the movies to view in Nigeria but you may be lucky to see it in a library or movie archive in US.

Hahaha, thanks so much! Yes, I'm American. And I'm blind too! Like I can't see... but I do just fine despite my disability, and honestly I think God made me that way for a reason
I'll see if I can find those films. Are they in English?

I love studying cultures/traditions from around the world, and right now African ones are my thang!

FeelDeMusic:

Hahaha, thanks so much! Yes, I'm American. And I'm blind too! Like I can't see... but I do just fine despite my disability, and honestly I think God made me that way for a reason
I'll see if I can find those films. Are they in English?

like you're totally blind or just visually impaired? were you born this way sir? and how have you been coping while surrounded by people - I think - don't share your disabilities?

If any of my questions feel uncomfortable for you, kindly ignore them

FeelDeMusic:

Hahaha, thanks so much! Yes, I'm American. And I'm blind too! Like I can't see... but I do just fine despite my disability, and honestly I think God made me that way for a reason
I'll see if I can find those films. Are they in English?

I love studying cultures/traditions from around the world, and right now African ones are my thang!

The movies are in Yoruba but subtitled!

I think I have more respect for your drive.

Just ask around...You may be able to get the information you require. You may start with Ogundes biography!

Here is a quote from Wikipedia about Ogundes works

In the late 1970s, Ogunde was spurred by the success of Ija Ominira and Ajani Ogun, two pioneering Yoruba feature-length films, to co-produce his first celluloid film, Aiye, in 1979. He released Jaiyesimi, Aropin N'tenia and Ayanmo, feature-length films influenced by Yoruba mysticism, thereafter.

I hope you'll be able to get the transcripts of these movies.

@CuteMadridista:
Oh no no no, ask away dear! I'm just fine answering.

Although I won't try and tell too much as we're online and I want to be cautious, I'll tell you that I was born blind, and I was born very early which caused it. I've been able to deal with it just fine and I've had no problems at all. I live in a mainly sighted world and I have been with sighted people for most of my life, which is why I just am able to act and think like a sighted person a lot better than most blind people, admitedly (LOL)!

Unfortunately it's true that a lot of people around me have treated me like crap, no one really understands that blind people are just normal humans like you and I and they have feelings, desires, ambitions, dreams and hopes too! I try to convey this message every day in my daily life by acting as confidently and boldly and independently as I can to show the world this.

This is why Cobhams Asuquo is a big inspiration to me, not only because he has worked with Asa who's one of my favorite singers as evidenced by my signature (hahahaha), and not only because I know that she knows a blind person (begins hyperventilating), but because he carries this same aire of independence, confidence and motivation that I want all blind people to carry. Unfortunately a lot of nonsighted folks say that they're "living the life they want" and that they don't let shitt define them, and yet they never actually practice what they preach, it's quite sad I must say.

I'm so sorry if this post is too long, I guess I have a lot to say, especially to someone who really wants to know a lot about me!

shadeyinka:

The movies are in Yoruba but subtitled!

I think I have more respect for your drive.

Just ask around...You may be able to get the information you require. You may start with Ogundes biography!

Here is a quote from Wikipedia about Ogundes works



I hope you'll be able to get the transcripts of these movies.

Perhaps I can, I'll see. I don't think they'll be available in English though I'm afraid.

More anointed books (Hagin, Copeland, Oyedepo, Gloria Copeland, etc) will be uploaded today. Please take full advantage. Readers are commanders of life's situations!
Share with your contacts...
Join us to download on https:///06BBSuGwuAqEFtU3ZsEJ5W
HELPLINE, 08126401351

PastorDavidAwuj:
More anointed books (Hagin, Copeland, Oyedepo, Gloria Copeland, etc) will be uploaded today. Please take full advantage. Readers are commanders of life's situations!
Share with your contacts...
Join us to download on https:///06BBSuGwuAqEFtU3ZsEJ5W
HELPLINE, 08126401351

Who be dis oh...

FeelDeMusic:

Perhaps I can, I'll see. I don't think they'll be available in English though I'm afraid.

The movie transcript will be an invaluable asset to you if you can lay your hands on them.

You may create a thread on Nairaland, perhaps someone will know how to guide you.