you have a right to condemn homosexuality all u want but how is it a great threat that must be put down?

snowdrops:

It seems bawomolo and thehomer are out to attack the catholic church and its leader the pope. You have also stood staunchly defending homosexualism. While i cannot judge or condemn you for your opinions you should realize that thse practises are frowned upon in our culture and considered abominable. Infact homosexualism is illegal in Nigeria and most other African countries. I know some persons have been brainwashed by western culture, but you need a cerebral reevaluation on your stance on such issues. The fact that polygamy is practiced mostly in Africa has not led to the west embracing this practice with open hands.

So do you mean that because it is frowned upon here it is bad?

snowdrops:

Are you both aware that until some years ago homosexualism was considered A DEVIANT SEXUAL PRACTICE AND CLASSIFIED A MENTAL ILLNESS. The gay right groups and liberals actively campaigned for a change in nomeclature.

Yeah I'm aware but unlike some groups of people, with more information (not by campaign) it was reviewed. I hope you also know that homosexuality has been practiced by people in pretty much all cultures and for as long as there have been people.

snowdrops:

Homosexualism is a choice. Nobody was born to be one. It is not genetic as people have tried but failed to prove.

Are people born to be heterosexual or do they choose it?

snowdrops:

It is immoral not only by biblical standards but societal standards. Depends on which side of the fence you sit on. You guys can continue practicing your gayness, provided you dont rub our noses in it and try to force the rest of the sane society to indulge in or embrace your practice. We have a right to preserve the human culture.

What societal standards? You are supporting oppression of some people because they simply do not conform to your religious rules is this not a bad thing?
You now accuse people defending other people's rights of being gay? How would you have felt if people did not stand up against slavery? Homosexuals are not forcing you to be one. They simply wish to enjoy the rights you also enjoy.
And human culture does embrace homosexuality. Like I said, it has been with humans for as long as there have been humans.

Finally, you've not given any reason against homosexuality other than a religious one or is it that you cannot think of any other reason?

^^^^

thank you sir

thehomer:



What societal standards? You are supporting oppression of some people because they simply do not conform to your religious rules is this not a bad thing?
You now accuse people defending other people's rights of being gay? How would you have felt if people did not stand up against slavery? Homosexuals are not forcing you to be one. They simply wish to enjoy the rights you also enjoy.
And human culture does embrace homosexuality. Like I said, it has been with humans for as long as there have been humans.

Finally, you've not given any reason against homosexuality other than a religious one or is it that you cannot think of any other reason?

See my friend, i am against homosexuality for personal and religious person. However if you have read my posts so far, i cannot and do not intend to stop you from chosing your sexual preference or practising it. Provided you are not breeching the law of the country you are it, "gay on".

The problem is you guys are too sensitive. People may find it repugnant but no one is persecuting you. Its a free world, at least in the west. You can chose to become a woman and cut off you joysticks, cross-dress or even sleep with animals. Its the 21st century.

Something else people might find offensive is when you try and stop christains from expressing their faith no matter how antiquated you think it is.

thehomer:

He made it in Portugal where it is legal. Also, the moon is not a planet.

I repeat even if he made the comment in the lagoon is less important to me. What matters is that a statement or comment have been made and we are discussing it here as a topic.

thehomer:

And I ask why are people so concerned other that for religious reasons?

I am an individual,  u Should direct your queries to millions of people around the world that feels so strongly affected positively/negatively by the pope's comments and ask them if it was for religious reasons or otherwise that they are agitated

thehomer:

You cannot decide the morals for the whole country.

Definitely yes i cant decide for the whole country as to what moral standards should be followed. Yet its possible that a fraction agrees to some moral codes on some issues that are not supposed to be morally correct. Would anyone tell u that u should not go and have s.ex with a dog? but u may feel, its morally wrong as a human being to do so.Likewise many other people may think in the same way as u do

thehomer:


Abortion is legal in Nigeria.

Where is it legalized in the law or constitution of the land? please show me. then i will prove to u that morally Nigerians are against it

thehomer:

The sentiments of the Pope have nothing to do with it. It was simply a part of the law borrowed from the British who have since amended their law on abortion.

I see, what about some Nigerians that spoke about the comments of the pope and actually used it to justify their non support for abortion. If they don't share his sentiments, he shouldn't have been quoted when they were granting interviews on the same subject of abortion

thehomer:

Your hypothetical situation is too unrealistic. How are you going to tell 3 billion people not to have any children and abort any children they are already carrying? Choose a better hypothetical situation.

Tell me something.Is It now a rule for anyone to give a hypothetical example, one must first determine if its realistic or unrealistic before giving it? This is ridiculous for u to think like that. So to u what is hypothetical? its has to be realistic all the time? if i say ' if seun were to be a lady, 90% of Nairaland members in the Romance section may like to date him' it has to be realistic abi? then u need to examine the way u reason

thehomer:

Why would the wife have no choice but to comply? In reality, it's the woman that decides whether or not to have the child. This is why it is a serious Women's Rights issue.

U just displayed another low knowledge about wifes right based on some cultures and religion. In some islamic countries woman are second citizen to their husbands and the husbands have final say in most cases. Also some tribes in Nigeria where the men pay millions as bride price they believe the lady has been bought and what ever they decide if final on family related issues. Recently an ex gov allegedly married a minor if the exgov says anything to the minor can she refuse? Not in all cases that the wife will have a choice

thehomer:

New births are already being prevented with the use of contraceptives of various types for both men and women. Yet people who have been using contraceptives still decide to have children at some point in time.

In Addition, Abortion will make another option to preventing new births available. Remember before abortion can take place, a life might have been formed in the womb,which we may say its murder. Whereas contraceptives prevents the formation of life unlike abortion will terminates an existing life

Are you both aware that until some years ago homosexualism was considered A DEVIANT SEXUAL PRACTICE AND CLASSIFIED A MENTAL ILLNESS. The gay right groups and liberals actively campaigned for a change in nomeclature.

Homosexualism is a choice. Nobody was born to be one. It is not genetic as people have tried but failed to prove.

It is immoral not only by biblical standards but societal standards. Depends on which side of the fence you sit on. You guys can continue practicing your gayness, provided you dont rub our noses in it and try to force the rest of the sane society to indulge in or embrace your practice. We have a right to preserve the human culture.

actually our cousins bonobos, do it all the time. Hyenas, giraffes, especially apes. if manifested in nature, then god likes it. isn't it?

Kay 17:

actually our cousins bonobos, do it all the time. Hyenas, giraffes, especially apes. if manifested in nature, then god likes it. isn't it?

[fundamentalist response] na you and your family be bonobo, in fact you be monkey[/fundamentalist response]

it's funny how people try to deny the complexities of human sexuality.

no one has shown how adam marrying steve is a great threat to the world though. i'm waiting for how that statement can be justified.

But it is very hard accepting it, especially when you are unfamiliar with it and its in the region of abomination.

snowdrops:

See my friend, i am against homosexuality for personal and religious person. However if you have read my posts so far, i cannot and do not intend to stop you from chosing your sexual preference or practising it. Provided you are not breeching the law of the country you are it, "gay on".

This is why I'm interested in your personal reasons. And like I've tried to point out to you, people do not choose their sexual preferences.

snowdrops:

The problem is you guys are too sensitive. People may find it repugnant but no one is persecuting you. Its a free world, at least in the west. You can chose to become a woman and cut off you manlinesses, cross-dress or even sleep with animals. Its the 21st century.

Sensitive in what sense? Homosexuals are persecuted. They are murdered in some countries. In other countries, they are denied rights available to other members of the society. These are forms of persecution. Would you consider slavery persecution?

snowdrops:

Something else people might find offensive is when you try and stop christains from expressing their faith no matter how antiquated you think it is.

No one stops you from exercising your faith. But you religious people seem to enjoy using your faith to trample on other people's rights. Whether you like it or not, some people do not believe in your religion. You should not force your religious rules down their throats.

toba:

I am an individual,  u Should direct your queries to millions of people around the world that feels so strongly affected positively/negatively by the pope's comments and ask them if it was for religious reasons or otherwise that they are agitated

You're one of the people who feels strongly about it so I ask you, why do you feel so strongly about it?

toba:

Definitely yes i cant decide for the whole country as to what moral standards should be followed. Yet its possible that a fraction agrees to some moral codes on some issues that are not supposed to be morally correct. Would anyone tell u that u should not go and have s.ex with a dog? but u may feel, its morally wrong as a human being to do so.Likewise many other people may think in the same way as u do

What's the relevance of this? Since you do not decide the morals of the entire country, you should be more specific and say you feel it is immoral. Whether or not people agree with you is of little importance. Except where you and like minded people use such basis to deny other people their rights as humans.

toba:

Where is it legalized in the law or constitution of the land? please show me. then i will prove to u that morally Nigerians are against it

Check the criminal code act 297. Also, considering the prevalence of abortion in the society, how many people do you know have been convicted of this charge? I'm pointing out to you again that you do not decide the morals of the whole country.

toba:

I see, what about some Nigerians that spoke about the comments of the pope and actually used it to justify their non support for abortion. If they don't share his sentiments, he shouldn't have been quoted when they were granting interviews on the same subject of abortion

When the law was written, the pope was not consulted. I just pointed out to you that it was borrowed from British law at that time and it has since been amended.

The useless pope should stamp out perversions in his catholic fold first before bleating about homosexuals,

toba:

Tell me something.Is It now a rule for anyone to give a hypothetical example, one must first determine if its realistic or unrealistic before giving it? This is ridiculous for u to think like that. So to u what is hypothetical? its has to be realistic all the time? if i say ' if seun were to be a lady, 90% of Nairaland members in the Romance section may like to date him' it has to be realistic abi? then u need to examine the way u reason

You keep posting statements without understanding the meaning. Read what it means to have abortions without allowing births. I indicated it there. You on the other hand need to understand what you post. Here's a hypothetical situation.

"In Nigeria, suicide is against the law. People who want to change this law want all Nigerians to die because people will simply start killing themselves if the law banning suicide was changed."
Do you think that is a good argument against repealing that law?

toba:

U just displayed another low knowledge about wifes right based on some cultures and religion. In some islamic countries woman are second citizen to their husbands and the husbands have final say in most cases. Also some tribes in Nigeria where the men pay millions as bride price they believe the lady has been bought and what ever they decide if final on family related issues. Recently an ex gov allegedly married a minor if the exgov says anything to the minor can she refuse? Not in all cases that the wife will have a choice

You are now clearly indicating your bias and ignorance. If a woman really wants to get rid of a baby, she can. The problem is that some methods are more risky than others depending on the gestational age of the foetus. Termination of pregnancy with traditional methods can be done and have been done.
Husbands have final say? Who do you think is the first to know if a woman is pregnant? If she has decided to get rid of it early how will the husband know?
What tribes do men pay millions as bride price? Who told you they believe the lady has been bought? Do they treat these women as slaves? Your bias and ignorance are astounding.

toba:

In Addition, Abortion will make another option to preventing new births available. Remember before abortion can take place, a life might have been formed in the womb,which we may say its murder. Whereas contraceptives prevents the formation of life unlike abortion will terminates an existing life

I hope you realize that most abortions are spontaneous.
Also, why should the mother who will have to carry the pregnancy be less important than the foetus is the mother not alive? It is very stressful carrying it to term with all its attendant risks.

bawomolo:

^^^^

thank you sir

You're welcome sir.

thehomer:

You're one of the people who feels strongly about it so I ask you, why do you feel so strongly about it?

And how do u know i feel so strongly about abortion? the other day during our discussion, u said since i support christians, it means im a christian. Now u committing same error. That im speaking to justify the popes statements doesnt mean that i feel so 'strongly' about the issue of abortion.So retract your statement that i feel so strongly about abortion.Next time i can make a case for u even though we belong to different beliefs.
I'll repeat myself unequivocally that u should direct your questions to people and not to me an individual

thehomer:

What's the relevance of this? Since you do not decide the morals of the entire country, you should be more specific and say you feel it is immoral. Whether or not people agree with you is of little importance. Except where you and like minded people use such basis to deny other people their rights as humans.

No i disagree with u. Do want to tell me that millions of people cannot agree to a single moral code? U as an atheist may feel that something is immorally while i a theist may also see it same way. Doesn't that mean we are of the same constituency? yet we agreed on immorality

thehomer:

Check the criminal code act 297. Also, considering the prevalence of abortion in the society, how many people do you know have been convicted of this charge? I'm pointing out to you again that you do not decide the morals of the whole country.

I know talk is cheap, thats why u come to NL to say what u dont fully understand

A person is not criminally responsible for performing in good faith and with reasonable care and skill a surgical operation upon any person for his benefit, or upon an unborn child for the preservation of the mother's life, if the performance of the operation is reasonable, having regard to the patient's state at the time and to all the circumstances of the case.

Abortion is illegal in Nigeria and most medical practitioners refuse to conduct abortions because of fear of the legal consequences. The result is that[b] most women wanting an abortion tend to patronise unqualified practitioners who offer quick and cheap abortions[/b]
This high rate of mortality associated with unsafe abortion is due to the prevailing restrictive abortion law in the country, which encourages women to use unqualified backstreet abortionists for the procurement of abortion," says the society’s president, Linus Ajabor (The Society of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians of Nigeria).
About a million births a year in Nigeria are to teenage mothers, according to former minister of health Olikoye Ransome-Kuti, and abortion complications are responsible for 72% of all deaths among teenagers below the age of 19.

Abortion laws in Nigeria are among the most restrictive in the world, allowing abortion only to save the life of the woman. According to Nigeria’s penal code, providing an abortion or even seeking services means risking years in prison. Still, contraceptive use is extremely low, and there are thousands of unwanted pregnancies each year. Despite the potential for punishment, thousands of women attempt to get abortions at any cost and by any means.

There are 760,000 abortions in Nigeria each year and approximately 60 percent of them are unsafe. The few safe abortion providers in Nigeria save lives by breaking their nation’s laws. But with such restrictive legal circumstances, why do providers continue to provide illegal abortions?
by Akinsewa Akinode of Ipas Nigeria. simple answer because of money. Mr homer and such is against the ethics of the medical profession, when pple are only motivated becos of money. This is morally wrong. Or dont u agree?

I take a pause here

thehomer:

considering the prevalence of abortion in the society, how many people do you know have been convicted of this charge?

But what happens to the abortion providers who get caught? Akiode’s research found that Nigeria’s abortion practices are much more liberal than its abortion laws. Although providers who offer illegal services are fearful of authorities, none of them seem afraid of actually going to prison. Akiode said the real problem in Nigeria is harassment and extortion — providers he interviewed described how some unscrupulous law enforcement agents usually turned a blind eye towards abortion as long as they got at least half of the client’s money.
As said by akinode a doctor and from Ipas Nigeria


Even pple that stole government money isn't only few are prosecuted? Illegalities is very common in Nigeria

thehomer:

When the law was written, the pope was not consulted. I just pointed out to you that it was borrowed from British law at that time and it has since been amended.

Which law? What did u point out? does the criminal code say Abortion is legal, doctors conduct it openly or secretly? try to browse and search for doctors response to abortion in Nigeria

thehomer:

You keep posting statements without understanding the meaning. Read what it means to have abortions without allowing births. I indicated it there. You on the other hand need to understand what you post. Here's a hypothetical situation.

"In Nigeria, suicide is against the law. People who want to change this law want all Nigerians to die because people will simply start killing themselves if the law banning suicide was changed."
Do you think that is a good argument against repealing that law?

That we wouldn't be wasting space cos talk is cheap, can my example be considered as a hypothetical case or not realistically or unrealistically according to the definitions of 'hypothetical'?

thehomer:


You are now clearly indicating your bias and ignorance. If a woman really wants to get rid of a baby, she can. The problem is that some methods are more risky than others depending on the gestational age of the foetus.

I think the bolded is clear that abortion is also one of them and infact the most dangerous of birth prevention methods. could kill both the foetus and the woman.

thehomer:


Termination of pregnancy with traditional methods can be done and have been done.

I hope u know that the above isnt relevant with the discussion here as ur 'criminal code' example doesnt cater for the traditional method u mentioned above

thehomer:

Husbands have final say? Who do you think is the first to know if a woman is pregnant? If she has decided to get rid of it early how will the husband know?

It all depends. some women still mensurate during pregnancy which could have made them not to know early enough that they are pregnant, in that case someone else will know. Also some first timer and in experieced woman might not know except the husband or other pple tell the couple. With these, the wife might no be the 'first to know'

thehomer:


What tribes do men pay millions as bride price?

Do figure it out ur self

thehomer:


Who told you they believe the lady has been bought?

Couple of friends from their personal experiences when relating to their husbands, they here them say such most times when strong issues comes up.

thehomer:


Do they treat these women as slaves? Your bias and ignorance are astounding.

Yes they do. A particular religion here on NL, is known to encourage women slavery, men from such encourages slavery

thehomer:

Your bias and ignorance are astounding.

Im not biased. U are the ignorant one talking about marriage issues u know little about

thehomer:


I hope you realize that most abortions are spontaneous.
Also, why should the mother who will have to carry the pregnancy be less important than the foetus is the mother not alive? It is very stressful carrying it to term with all its attendant risks.

If its stressful why get pregnant in the first place?

What of the badly performed abortion that kills both whats ur take on that?

The mothers are most at risk when we talking abortion that's why its not legalized in Nigeria. Do some research on who's at risk between the unborn and the mother

toba:

And how do u know i feel so strongly about abortion? the other day during our discussion, u said since i support christians, it means im a christian. Now u committing same error. That im speaking to justify the popes statements doesnt mean that i feel so 'strongly' about the issue of abortion.So retract your statement that i feel so strongly about abortion.Next time i can make a case for u even though we belong to different beliefs.
I'll repeat myself unequivocally that u should direct your questions to people and not to me an individual

If you wish to deny your Jesus and your God that's up to you.
Since you agree that abortion and gay marriage are the biggest threats, what are your reasons? You and snowdrops were the two individuals trying to defend this stance so please give good reasons why you feel it should be defended.

toba:

No i disagree with u. Do want to tell me that millions of people cannot agree to a single moral code? U as an atheist may feel that something is immorally while i a theist may also see it same way. Doesn't that mean we are of the same constituency? yet we agreed on immorality
I know talk is cheap, thats why u come to NL to say what u dont fully understand

Please read what I posted there. If you feel something is immoral to you that's up to you. Since you do not decide Nigeria's moral code, please be specific and say that it is what you feel rather than trying to lump everybody as though they all agree with you. Also, be ready to stand and support it on your own with good reason and not look around for support.

toba:

A person is not criminally responsible for performing in good faith and with reasonable care and skill a surgical operation upon any person for his benefit, or upon an unborn child for the preservation of the mother's life, if the performance of the operation is reasonable, having regard to the patient's state at the time and to all the circumstances of the case.

There are 760,000 abortions in Nigeria each year and approximately 60 percent of them are unsafe. The few safe abortion providers in Nigeria save lives by breaking their nation’s laws. But with such restrictive legal circumstances, why do providers continue to provide illegal abortions?
[/b] by Akinsewa Akinode of Ipas Nigeria. simple answer because of money. Mr homer and such is against the ethics of the medical profession, when pple are only motivated becos of money. This is morally wrong. Or dont u agree?

I take a pause here

How is it morally wrong? Read what you posted. Why do you refuse to read? I've put it in bold for you. How is it morally wrong to save lives? You claim they are only motivated for money. This show you simply lifted the article without reading it.

toba:

But what happens to the abortion providers who get caught? Akiode’s research found that Nigeria’s abortion practices are much more liberal than its abortion laws. Although providers who offer illegal services are fearful of authorities, none of them seem afraid of actually going to prison. Akiode said the real problem in Nigeria is harassment and extortion — providers he interviewed described how some unscrupulous law enforcement agents usually turned a blind eye towards abortion as long as they got at least half of the client’s money.
As said by akinode a doctor and from Ipas Nigeria

You're one sorry case of a person refusing to understand what he reads. I hope you know that for the person to be caught, the person must be reported by the patient who sought abortion. And the person who reported that would also go to prison.

toba:

Even pple that stole government money isn't only few are prosecuted? Illegalities is very common in Nigeria
Which law? What did u point out? does the criminal code say Abortion is legal, doctors conduct it openly or secretly? try to browse and search for doctors response to abortion in Nigeria

The pope has/had nothing to do with the law in Nigeria.
For the sake of your God read the law. You posted it yourself above read it and try to understand I'm tired of doing your homework for you.

toba:

That we wouldn't be wasting space cos talk is cheap, can my example be considered as a hypothetical case or not realistically or unrealistically according to the definitions of 'hypothetical'?

Your example is rubbish because you cannot make everyone on earth stop having babies just because abortion is allowed.
In the same way you cannot make everyone start killing themselves just because they will not be jailed for attempted suicide.
Please try to understand what you post.

toba:

I think the bolded is clear that abortion is also one of them and infact the most dangerous of birth prevention methods. could kill both the foetus and the woman.I hope u know that the above isnt relevant with the discussion here as your 'criminal code' example doesnt cater for the traditional method u mentioned above

The traditional method involves using herbs. I also pointed out to you that it depends on the gestational age. Please read it.

toba:

It all depends. some women still mensurate during pregnancy which could have made them not to know early enough that they are pregnant, in that case someone else will know. Also some first timer and in experieced woman might not know except the husband or other pple tell the couple. With these, the wife might no be the 'first to know

You are saying rubbish. Women do not menstruate during pregnancy and for months after the pregnancy. There may be some slight spotting or bleeding but not menstruation. I hope you know that people still do lose pregnancies. About your claim of the husband knowing, that is highly unlikely. I hope you know that withing the first 4 - 6 weeks, she would know and she would likely go alone to a lab for confirmation. My point is that if a woman wants to abort a foetus, she certainly can.

toba:

Do figure it out your self

How can I figure it out myself? You made a claim and you expect me to resolve it for you? You're back to making your rubbish unverified claims.

toba:

Couple of friends from their personal experiences when relating to their husbands, they here them say such most times when strong issues comes up.
Yes they do.

Do you expect me to take your anecdotal evidence seriously? Please give your references so that proper investigation can be done.

toba:

A particular religion here on NL, is known to encourage women slavery, men from such encourages slaveryIm not biased. U are the ignorant one talking about marriage issues u know little about

What religion is this? Please state it clearly for us to know you're not biased or ignorant.

toba:

If its stressful why get pregnant in the first place?

Please read what you just posted above. Does that make sense to you? Do you not understand that reproduction is the way the species continues? Yet you claim not to be ignorant.

toba:

What of the badly performed abortion that kills both whats your take on that?

More women die and are injured carrying a pregnancy to term than die from poorly performed abortion.

toba:

The mothers are most at risk when we talking abortion that's why its not legalized in Nigeria. Do some research on who's at risk between the unborn and the mother

Rubbish again. When abortion is performed by qualified health personnel, it is safer than carrying the pregnancy to term.

toba:

I think the bolded is clear that abortion is also one of them and infact the most dangerous of birth prevention methods. could kill both the foetus and the woman.

I see people are still peddling silly arguments on nairaland.

There is 'unsafe' and 'safe' abortion. This is the 21st century and an abortion procedure carries no greater risk than say hernioraphy or an appendectomy.

Stop watching Nollywood and downgrading your intellect. In nollywood abortion is as dangerous as atomic boms.

If its stressful why get pregnant in the first place?

What of the badly performed abortion that kills both whats your take on that?

What of the badly performed appendectomys, hernioraphys, CABG's, nose reconstructions, bosom n bottom implants, liposuction and co? They should ban them too, right?

The mothers are most at risk when we talking abortion that's why its not legalized in Nigeria. Do some research on who's at risk between the unborn and the mother

This is just plain dumb. . . . Mothers are greatly at risk during pregnancy and paturition too. . . Do some research and find out the mortality figures.

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snowdrops:

It seems bawomolo and thehomer are out to attack the catholic church and its leader the pope. You have also stood staunchly defending homosexualism. While i cannot judge or condemn you for your opinions you should realize that thse practises are frowned upon in our culture and considered abominable. Infact homosexualism is illegal in Nigeria and most other African countries. I know some persons have been brainwashed by western culture, but you need a cerebral reevaluation on your stance on such issues. The fact that polygamy is practiced mostly in Africa has not led to the west embracing this practice with open hands.

Are you both aware that until some years ago homosexualism was considered A DEVIANT SEXUAL PRACTICE AND CLASSIFIED A MENTAL ILLNESS. The gay right groups and liberals actively campaigned for a change in nomeclature.

Homosexualism is a choice. Nobody was born to be one. It is not genetic as people have tried but failed to prove.

It is immoral not only by biblical standards but societal standards. Depends on which side of the fence you sit on. You guys can continue practicing your gayness, provided you dont rub our noses in it and try to force the rest of the sane society to indulge in or embrace your practice. We have a right to preserve the human culture.

Although i have high regards for the Pope and the Catholic Church as a whole, i think the Pope statement is unfortunate. I Know Pope John Paul II would never had made such an insensitive statement. The greatest threat to the world is illiteracy, poverty and religious fundamentalism. When the Catholic church was still relevant in the world, they attacked the root cause of illiteracy by providing schools to the poor - free of charge, the provided philanthropic services like free hospitals, orphanages etc. now they seem to have abandoned those issues.

One of the things that put me off Nairaland too much hatred, intolerance and disregard for other people of different beliefs or orientation. How can you classify a different sexual orientation as mental illness? is that a medical assertion or your hate filled assertion.

If you do not understand something, why dont you do some research. Sexuality is much more complex than the simple XX and XY chromosomes, we were taught in elementary biology. It has been discovered that we can have XXY and even XXXY chromosomes.
Also would you regard that south african athlete that is a hermaphrodite as being mad?

Yes some homosexuals are by choice (curiosity, sexual deprivation or for Juju purposes), but the vast majority of open gays are not out of nurture but by nature.

thehomer:

Since you agree that abortion and [b]gay marriage [/b]are the biggest threats, what are your reasons?

Lying with your post is exactly what pisses me off on chatting with u. The other day u lied that i said something. After proving u wrong u took a twist and admitted i didn't post what u had alleged. Where have i said anything about gay marriage since i began proving my case against  abortion? If u cant show me where i had talked about gay marriage then u must be a big fool and i wouldn't want to chat with u any longer.

thehomer:


Please read what I posted there. If you feel something is immoral to you that's up to you. Since you do not decide Nigeria's moral code, please be specific and say that it is what you feel rather than trying to lump everybody as though they all agree with you. Also, be ready to stand and support it on your own with good reason and not look around for support.

I will still repeat same thing that it is possible that majority of Nigerians can agree on an issue of morality. Just before Yar adua died, the NA passed a resolution making Goodluck the acting president which was illegal. But they found it moraaly right to do so cause of pressure from various groups and millions of Nigerians, that how can a sick man hold the whole Nation to ransom with most things remaining unprogressive due to no President. Legally wrong yet morally right so as not to ridicle the nation among the league of nations.

thehomer:


How is it morally wrong? Read what you posted. Why do you refuse to read? I've put it in bold for you. How is it morally wrong to save lives? You claim they are only motivated for money. This show you simply lifted the article without reading it.

Thats another problem i have with u. If u didnt understand what i posted, u should have asked instead of chatting nonsense.

See what i meant by immorality

toba:

simple answer because of money. Mr homer and such is against the ethics of the medical profession, when pple are only motivated becos of money. This is morally wrong. Or dont u agree?

Its against the ethics of the medical profession for Doctors to be motivated by money while a life and legal issues are at stake and as such anything unethical is immoral.

thehomer:


You're one sorry case of a person refusing to understand what he reads. I hope you know that for the person to be caught, the person must be reported by the patient who sought abortion. And the person who reported that would also go to prison.

Dont always generalise. As far as anything that involves man, anything is possible. What if a man doesnt want his to have an abortion, then the wife goes ahead to have it,cant the husband report the wife to the authority to claim that his wife and the doctor had killed his unborn? must it always be one person that will report to the authoritoes?

thehomer:


The pope has/had nothing to do with the law in Nigeria.
For the sake of your God read the law. You posted it yourself above read it and try to understand I'm tired of doing your homework for you.

What have u done since we started our discuss? Does the law directly grant consent to abortion? Does the law not talk about reasonability before such an operation would be carried out?  Can anyone who just feels 'i dont want to have a child because i dont just feel like' go to the doctor quoting the criminal code?
Its for u to figure it out based on your understanding of what the law says. U may not reply but i want u to logically think about this if u re really sincere and honest

thehomer:

Your example is rubbish because you cannot make everyone on earth stop having babies just because abortion is allowed.
In the same way you cannot make everyone start killing themselves just because they will not be jailed for attempted suicide.
Please try to understand what you post.

I understand what i posted quite well. Its a crazy world where any one can cite any example to prove his/her case. In 2002 When Nigeria was about hosting the miss world beauty peagent show in abuja, a journalist that works with thisday news papers said 'wow this women are so beautiful, if prophet Mohammad were to be alive , he would have taken some of them as wives' doest mean that if mohammad were to be alive he would have actually done such? I gave a hypothetical example, go ahead and prove to me that my example isn't qualified to be referred to as hypothetical based on the definition of hypothetical. If u cant, remain mute till eternity on this subject

thehomer:


The traditional method involves using herbs. I also pointed out to you that it depends on the gestational age. Please read it.

Its irrelevant to the law u cited, therefore rest ur case on traditional method of abortion in pieces

thehomer:


You are saying rubbish. Women do not menstruate during pregnancy and for months after the pregnancy. There may be some slight spotting or bleeding but not menstruation. I hope you know that people still do lose pregnancies. . I hope you know that withing the first 4 - 6 weeks, she would know and she would likely go alone to a lab for confirmation. My point is that if a woman wants to abort a foetus, she certainly can.

U just displayed little knowledge about pregnancy. U ve always referred me online to go do research. I will advise in go do same on the possibilty of pregnant women still menstruating for some period after getting pregnant and various reasons for such. In some cases its just spotting while in others its more than spotting

thehomer link=topic=444982.msg6039836 #msg6039836 date=1273905652]

About your claim of the husband knowing, that is highly unlikely
[/quote]
But not absolutely impossible

thehomer link=topic=444982.msg6039836 #msg6039836 date=1273905652:


How can I figure it out myself? You made a claim and you expect me to resolve it for you? You're back to making your rubbish unverified claims.

Do some research to prove my claims are unverifiable
[quote author=thehomer:


Do you expect me to take your anecdotal evidence seriously? Please give your references so that proper investigation can be done.

Generate datas ur self to do that, since i gave 'anecdotal evidence'

thehomer:


What religion is this? Please state it clearly for us to know you're not biased or ignorant.

I gave u the forum the the discussion came up as NL, do ur research to figure it out

thehomer:


Rubbish again. When abortion is performed by qualified health personnel, it is safer than carrying the pregnancy to term.

Up to what % is it safe? An expert can make errors at times?

Mr Ms Tudor

Tudór:

I see people are still peddling silly arguments on nairaland.

There is 'unsafe' and 'safe' abortion. This is the 21st century and an abortion procedure carries no greater risk than say hernioraphy or an appendectomy.

Stop watching Nollywood and downgrading your intellect. In nollywood abortion is as dangerous as atomic boms.

Guy i dont like watching Nollywood home videos cus i am football fan. But i do watch on rare occassions and when i watch, im not moved about their acts at times.

Yes there are safe and unsafe abortion, but in places where its prohibitive such isnt allowed either safe or unsafe. In This context, my friend hommer cited a law in Nigeria and we have picked our case study as Nigeria. The law says

A person is not criminally responsible for performing in good faith and with reasonable care and skill a surgical operation upon any person for his benefit, or upon an unborn child for the [b]preservation of the mother's life, if the performance of the operation is reasonable, having regard to the patient's state [/b]at the time and to all the circumstances of the case.

What annoys me is the fact that abortion has been abused, the extent that the law permits surgical operation to protect the mothers life and based on reasonability is not strictly adhered to. Young ladies going that are promiscuous takes advantage of it and later it may turn to their disadvantage when they get their womds damaged or die after going for abortion in succession.

Tudór:


What of the badly performed appendectomys, hernioraphys, CABG's, nose reconstructions, bosom n bottom implants, liposuction and co? They should ban them too, right?This is just plain dumb. . . . Mothers are greatly at risk during pregnancy and paturition too. . . Do some research and find out the mortality figures.

I already did and found both risky . My conclusion will be that all matters in both regards should be left for a poll and we all should democratically decide what we want especially as it concerns abortion.But till then the law should still be protected. In Nigeria its illegal and untill theres a contrary law that repels the existing one is made, we should abide by it

^^^
You're talking rubbish, The below is a quote from u

toba:

The mothers are most at risk when we talking abortion that's why its not legalized in Nigeria.

we're not talking about whether the law is there or not but if the law in itself is justifiable.

And silly arguments like the one in the quote dont help make ur case

Tudór:

^^^
You're talking rubbish, The below is a quote from u
we're not talking about whether the law is there or not but if the law in itself is justifiable.

May be u didnt know the issue of legality formed part of the basis of my arguments with homer before u logged to post nonsense.Abortion remains illegal&the law prohibiting it serves to curtail risk to mothers in two different ways thats why Surgical operations is only allowed to save life&when its reasonable.the law is justified as long as such isnt to save life&unreasonable. Go read the quote to get a better understanding of the what the law says&see its justification.

toba:

May be u didnt know the issue of legality formed part of the basis of my arguments with homer before u logged to post nonsense.Abortion remains illegal&the law prohibiting it serves to curtail risk to mothers in two different ways thats why Surgical operations is only allowed to save life&when its reasonable.the law is justified as long as such isnt to save life&unreasonable. Go read the quote to get a better understanding of the what the law says&see its justification.

Again blabbing absolute dross. . .if u had any sense, you'd know there are different types of surgeries and some are classified as ''ELECTIVE'' procedures and they also carry an element of risk no lesser than safe abortions. Why not legalise against them too since ''Surgical operations is only allowed to save life&when its reasonable''? ?

Saying abortions are illegal because its risky is the daftest argument i've heard in all my donkey years on this earth.

Stella Obasanjo as well as many others die doing elective lipo, i guess they should be banned too?

Well since i wasnt part of the people that made the law,i guess i wouldnt be able to make reason to the side of its justification. Then if u still so strongly about your view on the subject,direct it to the law makers&ask them to help u interprete the ambiguity in Aso Rock Abuja Nigeria

Tudór:

Again blabbing absolute dross. . .if u had any sense, you'd know there are different types of surgeries and some are classified as ''ELECTIVE'' procedures and they also carry an element of risk no lesser than safe abortions. Why not legalise against them too since ''Surgical operations is only allowed to save life&when its reasonable''? ?

Saying abortions are illegal because its risky is the daftest argument i've heard in all my donkey years on this earth.

Stella Obasanjo as well as many others die doing  elective lipo, i guess they should be banned too?

^^

you seem to be hiding under the legality argument? why is that.
if the assembly legalized the killing of twins, would it be right?

Yes im with the law operating in our domain.
but any relevance of ur question to the topic?

toba:

Lying with your post is exactly what pisses me off on chatting with u. The other day u lied that i said something. After proving u wrong u took a twist and admitted i didn't post what u had alleged. Where have i said anything about gay marriage since i began proving my case against  abortion? If u cant show me where i had talked about gay marriage then u must be a big fool and i wouldn't want to chat with u any longer.

So what is your reason for abortion being to biggest threat facing the world today?

toba:

I will still repeat same thing that it is possible that majority of Nigerians can agree on an issue of morality. Just before Yar adua died, the NA passed a resolution making Goodluck the acting president which was illegal. But they found it moraaly right to do so cause of pressure from various groups and millions of Nigerians, that how can a sick man hold the whole Nation to ransom with most things remaining unprogressive due to no President. Legally wrong yet morally right so as not to ridicle the nation among the league of nations.

First, how is it illegal for the vice president to be the acting president if the president is incapacitated? If you want to go by that, then how is it immoral to save a woman's life? Why should the life of the foetus be more important than that of the mother? You have still not answered this question.

toba:

Thats another problem i have with u. If u didnt understand what i posted, u should have asked instead of chatting nonsense.
See what i meant by immorality
Its against the ethics of the medical profession for Doctors to be motivated by money while a life and legal issues are at stake and as such

You are still so ignorant. Try to understand the implications of what you've posted. Is saving the mother's life unethical? Or is it unethical to save the mother's life and be paid for it? Do you have information on doctors refusing to carry out an abortion to save a woman's life because they would not be paid?

What do you mean "to be motivated by money" should a doctor not be paid for his services? How about the quacks that kill the women should they also not be paid?

toba:

anything unethical is immoral.

Immoral to who? What about the doctor that needs to support his extended family. Is it immoral to deprive him of his fees?


You see you are quite unreasonable. You expect someone after sustaining a large debt going to school to go about treating people for free. This is besides the other medical doctors who do carry out free consultations and other such services.

toba:

Dont always generalise. As far as anything that involves man, anything is possible. What if a man doesnt want his to have an abortion, then the wife goes ahead to have it,cant the husband report the wife to the authority to claim that his wife and the doctor had killed his unborn? must it always be one person that will report to the authoritoes?

Yet you are so happy to generalize.
Rubbish if it were a spontaneous abortion, would he call the authorities? How would he know the difference if the woman does not tell him? Try to understand that in such a crime, to clinch it, what is needed is an eyewitness testimony.

toba:

What have u done since we started our discuss? Does the law directly grant consent to abortion?

It does. Read it.

toba:

Does the law not talk about reasonability before such an operation would be carried out? Can anyone who just feels 'i dont want to have a child because i dont just feel like' go to the doctor quoting the criminal code?

It depends on several reasons. e.g, the age of the patient, the circumstances under which the conception occurred etc.

toba:

Its for u to figure it out based on your understanding of what the law says. U may not reply but i want u to logically think about this if u re really sincere and honest

You still refuse to understand what the law says. I hope you are not affiliated to the legal profession.

toba:

I understand what i posted quite well. Its a crazy world where any one can cite any example to prove his/her case. In 2002 When Nigeria was about hosting the miss world beauty peagent show in abuja, a journalist that works with thisday news papers said 'wow this women are so beautiful, if prophet Mohammad were to be alive , he would have taken some of them as wives' doest mean that if mohammad were to be alive he would have actually done such? I gave a hypothetical example, go ahead and prove to me that my example isn't qualified to be referred to as hypothetical based on the definition of hypothetical. If u cant, remain mute till eternity on this subject

I have just pointed out to you that
1. You cannot mandate that everyone on earth stop having babies.
2. You cannot mandate that everyone on earth use abortion as the only method of family planning.

Is it difficult for you to read and understand? These are the reasons why your hypothetical situation is absurd. In a discussion, making a hypothetical situation that is pretty much impossible is pointless. That is one of the ways a strawman fallacy is made.

toba:

Its irrelevant to the law u cited, therefore rest your case on traditional method of abortion in pieces

How is it irrelevant? Is it not a method of abortion that was available even before the laws came about?

toba:

U just displayed little knowledge about pregnancy. U ve always referred  me online to go do research. I will advise in go do same on the possibilty of pregnant women still menstruating for some period after getting pregnant and various reasons for such.

In some cases its just spotting while in others its more than spottingBut not absolutely impossible

Vaginal spotting is not the same as menstruation. Sure it is not impossible but try to understand the point I was making. The woman would most likely be the first to know she is pregnant and may or may not choose to tell the man. In that interval, if she has an abortion the man will not know.

toba:

Do some research to prove my claims are unverifiable

I should prove your claims are unverifiable when you have not provided evidence for your claims? You are one absurd fellow.

toba:

Generate datas your self to do that, since i gave 'anecdotal evidence'

You now want me to generate your data in the absence of you presenting your evidence? Do you understand what anecdotal evidence is or are you joking?

toba:

I gave u the forum the the discussion came up as NL, do your research to figure it out

When people are referring to a particular topic or post, they insert the link there. So simply insert the link. Or are you afraid that your claims will not hold water?

toba:

Up to what % is it safe? An expert can make errors at times?

All medical procedures have risks. All substances have side effects even water and excessive oxygen.
Understand the point being made. It is safer to carry out an abortion than carry the pregnancy to term. i.e more people die from carrying a pregnancy to term in safe environments than from abortions performed by trained personnel.