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Unfufilled Vows,oaths,covenants Reasons Behind Christians Sufferings!!!! Part1 / If You Are Left Behind On Rapture Day, Will You Accept 666 Mark Of The Beast? / What If You Were Left Behind After Rapture? (1) (2) (3) (4)
|The Left Behind Christians by kris2glo: 11:28am On May 31, 2010|
What do you know about the set of Christians that will be left behind after the rapture? Will there be any thing as such? Or will all Christians be rapture at the same time? Tell the world what you know.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Enigma(m): 11:36am On May 31, 2010|
What "rapture" is that?
By the way, a chap called Tim LaHaye seems to have made some dosh with this "Left Behind" idea!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by naijacutee(f): 12:08pm On May 31, 2010|
I will hesitate to give a thorough opinion on this topic, as I know so little about it. I have read the "Left Behind" series though, and here's my take - Technically, the rapture is the final and fatal test of anyone who is a true follower of Christ - anyone who is a true christian. Thus, anyone who is "left behind" wasn't really a christian to begin with.
P.S Please bear in mind that the Left Behind series are only fictional.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Yefet(m): 1:36pm On May 31, 2010|
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by KAG: 3:51pm On May 31, 2010|
Only after the Raelians
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by petres007(m): 7:40pm On May 31, 2010|
You see enh. . . whenever I hear folks talk about this "Left Behind" thingy I don't know what to think
Is it that you guys don;t have bibles to study about the issue or what?
Please forgive my tone. . . if you guys want, I can post one or two scriptures that clearly show that the church will be here during the tribulation (and yes, face the antichrist).
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Yefet(m): 7:17am On Jun 01, 2010|
@ peter 007 you must be using a different Bible. Please give us your verses and let us prove you wrong.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Yefet(m): 9:19pm On Jul 07, 2010|
MARK OF THE BEAST (666)
“He required everyone – great and small, rich and poor, slave and free – to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understanding this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666” (Rev. 13:16-18 New Living Translation).
666 IS A SYSTEM OF THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
At the present time, computer-assisted biometric identification systems are being developed rapidly and have been readily accepted into our society. Miniature computer chips, using RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) technology, have already been embedded within electronic appliances, retail goods, livestock, and human beings. This is not tomorrow’s science fiction – it is happening today.
In many parts of the world, Applied Digital Corporation’s human implanted RFID microchip (VeriChip) is used to help diagnose Alzheimer’s disease, mental illness, Diabetes, heart problems and it also helps to prevent kidnappings. In the near future, this type of biochip will be widely accepted and implanted for personal identification, protection, monitoring, tracking, commerce, and other uses not yet imagined.
Unfortunately, such biochips store personal identification and the information generated from its use will be stored and maintained in a computer database. Your body becomes a tagged asset that is monitored and whose behavior will be tracked. Implanting the microchip in the body alters a person’s physically, mentally and ultimately – spiritually. The problem that arises from the use of biochip in humans is more than an aesthetic, medical, political, or legal issue.
Satan works in the world and he shapes people and society to achieve his goals. Knowingly or not, anti-christ will force people to follow and obey an agenda that appears to be in the best interest of its people but, in following the pattern of human history and man’s rebellion to God, will bring about pain and suffering until Christ comes again.
“…he [satan’s agent] deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people of the world to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. He was permitted to give life to this stature so that it could speak. Then the statue commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.” (Rev 13vs14-15 New Living Translation).
A time is coming when society and lives will be ruled by a self-imposed system where mankind is monitored, analyzed, measured, and evaluated by computers. In those times, anyone who refuses to accept this system will be tortured then killed.
FORMATION OF A UBIQUITOUS SOCIETY
We are moving towards a ubiquitous society where people from all walks of life can access anything, anywhere, and at anytime regardless of time and location. What drives such development is the belief that we will live safer, easier, richer and more enjoyable lives by using technology to manage everyday aspects of daily life. In a society that craves automated financial management, instant communication and security, it’s not a far stretch for RFID enabled biochips to be implanted into the body, and eventually replacing currency that is easily stolen, lost, or hidden. In the near future:
1) All people will be required to have a biochip. All economic operations will use this chip thereby replacing today’s unit of monetary exchange.
2) There will be privacy invasion and freedom will cease to exist.
3) A charismatic leader, who is the Anti-Christ, will rule the whole world through a system that is interconnected and interdependent.
MARK OF THE BEAST IN THE HUMAN BODY, WE MUST NOT RECEIVE IT. (REV 14VS9, 14VS11, 16VS2)
1) Accepting this mark is the irreversible act of selling your soul to Satan. This sin is unforgivable and cannot be reversed by physically removing the mark (Rev. 14:9-11). Your soul belongs to God. Therefore if you receive this mark, you then will belong to Satan.
2) If you receive this mark, you willfully placing your faith in man and not in God. You are actively choosing to live without a loving God who desires to spend eternity with you in Heaven. God does not want you choosing Hell’s path. God knew these things beforehand, and because He loves us and wants us to acknowledge this, it was revealed to us through the writing of the apostle John in Revelation around 100 AD. If you are not taken up to heaven and are thereby left behind for the tribulation, you must not receive the mark of the beast even though you will be tortured then killed for not accepting the government’s sanctioned acts of satan. You must remember this at all times because the hope of heaven still remains until the end comes.
HAVE YOU RECEIVED Jesus AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR?
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)
Money is not everything. A person cannot come to God by believing in any other gods, ethics, discipline, or by good deeds. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ makes it possible to stand righteous before a holy God at end of human history. It was for this reason that Jesus Christ suffered on the cross, shed His blood, died, and came back to life. This was done to demonstrate God’s willingness, ability, and glory in saving us from sin and death.
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father excerpt through Me. (John 14:6)
That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified. And it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Rom 10:9-10)
You must believe in Jesus and that He died for your sins. Jesus loves you.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Realize that you are a sinner and you must pray in faith. You need to receive Jesus as your personal Savior. There is surely a Heaven and a Hell. Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven.
Jesus IS COMING SOON, PREPARE FOR THE RAPTURE
Jesus, who redeemed us through the cross will prepare a place and will come back to be with us. He has promised us. (John 14:3). The rapture will take place before the Great Tribulation (Rev. 3:10). Jesus said, “you know to interpret how to interpret the appearance of the sky but you cannot interpret the signs of the times, (Matt. 16:3 Luke 12:56).
ALL BELOVED SAINTS IN Jesus CHRIST
The rapture is reserved for those saints who will be lifted into the sky upon God’s trumpet call, saints that are to be raptured will be lifted into the sky to meet Jesus in the clouds (1 The 4:16-17). The rapture is reserved for those believers who wear spiritual white robes. Their physical body will be transformed into a glorious body and will be God’s delight, (Rev. 19:7-.
If you remain in lukewarm faith, Jesus will spew you out so you must not be like this type of believer (Rev. 3:16). Jesus’ first coming was to bring salvation, but He is coming again to meet those who are Ready and Waiting in the clouds at the sound of the trumpets and this is call Rapture. Lord Jesus, will take His children with Him to Heaven. After the tribulation on earth then He will return again on earth with those who were ratpured with Him into Heaven to the New Jerusalem this will be called His Second Coming. For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when He comes? Is it not you? (1 Thess. 2:19)
At Jesus’ return, only raptured saints will be presented at the seat of glory (1 Cor. 15:49-55). Even if we do not know the day and time of His coming, the sons of light are not in darkness therefore that day will not come upon you like a thief (1 Thess. 5:4-5). Do not be lukewarm believers nor do not sleep but be awake and pray, (1 Thess. 5:1-4). Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard: obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you, (Rev. 3:3). Those with lukewarm faith, those who are tied to the world, and those who do not know Jesus will be left behind for the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will be the most devastating time in all of human history. Those who are left behind in the Great Tribulation must not receive the biochip (which bears satan’s name) into their body (forehead or right hand; Rev 13vs16, 20vs4) even to the point of death. Christians who commit suicide will spend eternal life in hell. By refusing this chip, you will be tortured then killed. For the unblelievers (nonChristians) you don’t only have to refuse the chip but also you will have to confess Jesus as your Lord and savior with your lips, ask of forgiveness of your sins and believe in your heart that is the Son of the God and He died for us, Amen.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by aletheia(m): 1:44am On Jul 08, 2010|
petres_007:Let the cries of heresy begin!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 8:59am On Jul 08, 2010|
I think its worth it you, Enigma and Petres_James-Bond clarify the issue here openly.
A few contacts I've had with NLers and some emails I received give me to understand that more people actually take you guys more serious than you'll want to believe. It has made me afraid to think I may have effect on a person's understanding of God's Designs.
Conversely, some self-believed NL "HEAVY WEIGHTS" seemingly have "-negative IQs" to the understanding of many readers.
Please, let the light shine!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by aletheia(m): 5:38pm On Jul 08, 2010|
Jesus Christ is returning someday soon! But the "rapture" theory is based on human reasoning - which probably accounts for why there are so many different views on it. We often believe what we are told rather than being like the Bereans "who searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
The word rapture comes from the Latin rapere, meaning, "to seize" or "to abduct." It is translated from the Greek word that is rendered "caught up" in English Bibles today.
All advocates of the rapture agree that the main argument is based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Here the argument stands or falls. First, look at verse 17:
The Greek verb for "caught up" is harpazo
726 harpazo har-pad'-zo from a derivative of 138;
Why would Paul use such a strong word? Let's allow the Bible to speak for itself. The context of the subject begins in verse 13 and concludes in verse 11 of the next chapter. Paul wrote this section of the letter in answer to concerns of the local Christians.
As you read verse 13, you discover that Christians in Thessalonica were grieving over the unexpected deaths of members of their congregation.
Albert Barnes comments: "There seems some reason to suppose, that some of them believed that, though those who were dead would indeed rise again, yet it would be long after those who were living when the Lord Jesus would return had been taken to glory, and would always be in a condition inferior to them" ( Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13).
Paul wrote that they should not grieve over this: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus [believers who had died]" (verse 14).
Was he responding to a worry about whether Christ would rescue believers from the Great Tribulation? No, nothing is said of this. Nor is there anything in these verses that intimates Christ making a swooping pass by the earth to snatch off a few people to take them to heaven. These verses refer only to the doctrine of the second coming, at which time Jesus sets foot on the earth.
Great numbers of sincere people have placed their hope in this belief without biblical proof. In the 1500s, there was much opposition to the depredations of the Roman Catholic Church, with people like Calvin, Luther and Huss excoriating the pope as the Antichrist. The Council of Trent in 1545 was for the purpose of the Counter-Reformation,and it affirmed the the belief that catholic tradition had equal authority or was even superior to the bible.
The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit priest named Ribera, in 1580 A.D. during a time of much bloodshed in Europe as Roman catholics persecuted and murdered their opponents. This doctrine said that Christ was going to come and secretly snatch away the Church before a great seven-year tribulation, when the "Antichrist" would rule the world. This doctrine of futurism claimed that the prophecies of the book of Revelation only applies to the last seven years of human society. It was designed to take the pressure off the Roman catholic Pope, who was universally regarded as being the Antichrist by His opponents. Later Emmanuel Laconza, also a Jesuit priest, built on Ribera's teachings. He later wrote a book under the assumed Jewish name of Rabbi Ben Ezra. He later began teaching his theory of a 45 day "rapture".
Later, a man by the name of Edward Irving, who was born in Scotland in 1792, became one of the most elequent preachers of his time, and a leading figure of the Catholic Apostolic Church of England. Irving discovered Lacunza's book and fell in love with it, and translated it into English, and it was published in London in 1827. Around this time Irving heard what he believed to be a voice from heaven, commanding him to preach the Secret Rapture of the Saints. Irving then began to hold Bible conferences throughout Scotland, emphasizing the coming of Jesus to rapture His church.
John Nelson Darby picked up on the doctrine in the early 1830's in England. Darby changed the time period of the rapture from 45 days to 3 1/2 years. John Nelson Darby started a movement called the Plymouth Brethren in America. This secret rapture theory was introduced into the United States and Canada in the 1860's and 1870's although there is some indication that it may have been taught as early as the 1840's. Darby visited the United States at least six times.
The new teaching was spreading, a Congregationalist preacher by the name of C.I. Scofield came under the influence of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. Scofield later was to write the Scofield Reference Bible which had a tremendous impact upon the beliefs of many people. Through his Bible, Scofield carried the theory of a secret rapture into the very heart of evangelism. Some look on the "notes" in this Bible as the Word of God instead as notes of Scofield.
Let us now examine the chain of how the theory of a secret rapture originated; It began as a Roman Catholic invention by the Jesuit Priest Ribera, who later influenced another Jesuit Priest Lacunza, Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield; Scofield and Darby then influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced the Pentecostal Movement.
How was it that the Pentecostal Movement was influenced?
The Assemblies of God is the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. When the Assemblies of God held their first council in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas, they were a small movement and didn't own a publishing house. They needed study material for their church and they bought it from Moody Press and then had their own cover stitched on it. By purchasing their teaching material from Moody Press the Assemblies of God began to teach the doctrines and theories of D.L. Moody who had obtained them from Scofield, Darby, and others.
Does the Bible then teach that will there be a "secret rapture"?
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by petres007(m): 5:55pm On Jul 08, 2010|
God bless you for beating me to it!
And bless you some more for doing a much better job than I would've
This secret rapture thing is one widespread lie thats been told so many times, almost everyone now believes it without bothering to check the scriptures.
I think its very important Christians know whats up ahead and prepare for it. We (the church) will be here and go through the great tribulation that'll precede Jesus' return. [True] Christians will once again have to endure one final wave of persecution.
Sad I don't have much time to discuss this topic further today.
This one you're always yabbing me abt my ID, enh?? Is it a crime to be a 007?
Abi you're a little jealous?
I've had no time to spend on NL lately & really missed reading from all you guys o.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 8:23pm On Jul 08, 2010|
Me, yab the guy who gets all dem gals? lai-lai, I fitn't!
Nice to hear from you Bro, and of course, from Aletheia. His post above was absolutely brilliant and covered all the points involved in the issue.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by toluxa1(m): 8:51pm On Jul 08, 2010|
Bro, please can you send me a mail. I need your help urgently.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 8:55pm On Jul 08, 2010|
^^ You have mail
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Marlbron: 9:51pm On Jul 08, 2010|
Nice to see that some few christians are seeing the rubbish doctrine of rapture for what it is! Anybody that believes inrapture will need to pray for himself or herself, because it aint gonna happen. Believe in that doctrine only confirms that the person does not have the Holy spirit,no matter their pretensions. The Holy Spirit will not teach a lie!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 10:07pm On Jul 08, 2010|
^^^ I think you are a bit too harsh.
Its possible to have the Spirit of God yet refuse to allow Him/It expression. Maturity, curiosity, dissatisfaction with the norm (which is killed in many by religious manner) etc come into play and everything has to come together in the right mix for one to come out from under the shadow of societal religious expectation to be able to see reason with a clear mind uncolored by tradition.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Enigma(m): 11:31pm On Jul 08, 2010|
I think aletheia's post has done the business. As argued in that post, I also believe that the "rapture" doctrine is based on a misinterpretation and misapplication of scripture. As with the article I believe that the 1 Thess passage (as well as the others sometimes used) by those who teach/believe the "rapture" doctrine do/es not really teach a "rapture" doctrine at all. One thing we know for certain: Jesus is coming back! The date or time we do not know ---- even Jesus said whilst He was on earth that only the Father knows. Granted, He told of things that must happen first ---- but how long will their occurrence/s take place for, we don't really know.
Anyhow -- can we indulge a bit? The following hymn is taken from the book Revelation etc telling of Christ's coming (my preferred shorter version):
Lo He Comes with Clouds Descending (Best Tune = Helmsley)
http://nethymnal.org/htm/l/h/lhecomes.htm (longer version)
Lo! He comes with clouds descending,
Once for favored sinners slain;
Thousand thousand saints attending,
Swell the triumph of His train:
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
God appears on earth to reign.
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
The dear tokens of His passion
Still His dazzling body bears;
Cause of endless exultation
To His ransomed worshippers;
With what rapture, with what rapture, with what rapture
Gaze we on those glorious scars!
Yea, Amen! let all adore Thee,
High on Thine eternal throne;
Savior, take the power and glory,
Claim the kingdom for Thine own;
O come quickly! O come quickly! O come quickly!
Everlasting God, come down!
(And if this works, my first embed below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lj48lYLIvs&hl=en_GB&fs=1?rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed>[/flash]
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Enigma(m): 1:02am On Jul 09, 2010|
Pity they won't let us embed the fab arrangement in link below; those who like this kind of thing will enjoy a treat if they go and play it on Youtube.
EDIT It's very interesting that John Rutter the arranger of this version and perhaps the leading contemporary composer/arranger of sacred choral classical music is at the least an agnostic!!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Tudor6(f): 8:24am On Jul 09, 2010|
I find this very difficult to believe. . . . John mayor will influence carl moore, moore influences david james, james influences irving bla bla, bla bla influences hulabaloo etc and in the process billions go to hell for wrong doctrine.
Are you telling me yahweh sits on his fat arse in heaven and watches billions being led astray?? Commot there jo!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 8:58am On Jul 09, 2010|
MADAM 2DOR! :
And where above do you see anyone saying people will go to hell for wrong doctrine? And do you remember the date God came down in protest whist Hitler "cancelled" 6 million Jews whist throwing earth into a war that cost another "X" million lives?
You too like wahala joo
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Tudor6(f): 10:23am On Jul 09, 2010|
nuclearboy:Nice try. . . . I thought the 'jews' are unbelievers in Jesus and hence god doesnt give a crap if 20 million of them die??
Howso billions of christian believers who are misled to hell by false teachings??
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by OLAADEGBU(m): 10:45am On Jul 09, 2010|
Watch what is likely to happen before His second Coming.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 1:25pm On Jul 09, 2010|
More and more I see what pushed you away. Seems you've been fed a big fat
First you say you thought God gives NOT a sheat for Jews. My response is twofold  These were by default, His people. Do you hate your family, though they're not perfect?  He asks that the Gospel be preached to ALL peoples (including Jews) and whoso accepts is "His". Why would He then hate them when He sent out to them? Was that directive created via hatred?
ME: There are many theories of salvation bandied about especially by those who'd like to console themselves for their self imposed sloth, ignorance and laziness by believing they alone are special to God and thus condemn everyone else (with their mouths which of course are not God's mouth).
I think the one you should consider quietly would be that exposed here by InesQor (chei, your worst enemy, abi?) in the thread "some unbelievers, muslims, atheists etc are members of the body of Christ". You might be suprised what you'll find there if you never read it.
Sorry if thats not the exact title of the thread. Starting with that though, you'll find it.
EDITED: FOUND IT. InesQors is also my perspective - http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-419596.0.html
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Tudor6(f): 6:36pm On Jul 09, 2010|
your link is incorrect. . . .
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nuclearboy(m): 7:26pm On Jul 09, 2010|
^^ Its right. Read posts #28 and #30.
I deliberately didn't specify the particular posts I wanted you to look at in the hope that going thru ALL would show the progression that led to those 2 specific posts.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Jenwitemi(m): 7:38pm On Jul 09, 2010|
kris2glo:Any christian who disobeyed the doctrine and loved his unbeliever neighbour(s) as himself, will be left unraptured.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nopuqeater: 8:55pm On Jul 09, 2010|
@Aletheia: « #10 on: Yesterday at 05:38:38 PM »
^^^Good Job, Woman. From your above, you state and conclude and accept that there is no one to be raptured. Who ever believes it will be disapponted when death comes for him while on earth, before Jesus comes, or even his second coming. In other words, everyone will die.
If this is the case, when Jesus is here, will those people who are on earth and have not died, die, as a natural rule if there is no rapture or anything similar to it, regardless of rising or not to the sky, but alive under the heavens, while alive on earth? If everyone wil die before the day of Judgement begins, we must have to say that Jesus will die during this second coming, or that Jesus will be the only person on earth alive for a while between the period of the last person to die and the rising up or recreation of those who are death, for the Judgement day?
If we take the position that Jesus will die on earth for before the day of Judgement begins, we have to agree that he was dying the second time, if you agree there was a death on the cross, otherwise he was not dead on the cross, and he is just dying for the first time on earth, taking the position that "death comes but once", as the saying goes. Whats your take on this? My position is that he will die for the very first time during this second coming, since there is no rapture and sometimes before all men dying before the day of Judgement.
Now, whats your position about Jesus being called God, Lord and son of God? If you beiieve it to be so, present an argument taht is unique on this view, and try very hard to negate all the many and overwhelming verses and proofs even from the mouth of Jesus and others in OT and NT that God is not like a human being, He does not have a child, no partner, Unique in all aspects and has full Knowledge on all thing, and can never be humiliated, punished, judged, killed, etc.
This remind of the mercy of God on Abraham and his would be slaughtered son. The fact that Abraham and son submitted to the act, God did not do but ransome the child from death by replacing him with a ram, the symbolism of the slaughter. Please let me know your views. Others among christians will dance around the subjects or burst into a rage. I believe, hopefully that you are different. I wish you well. Maybe some knowledge will come out of this. Maybe some may just look at his or her religion in the absolute light of the Creator. Maybe.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by aletheia(m): 9:20pm On Jul 09, 2010|
OLAADEGBU:^^^Great video there, Olaadegbu!
KJV: Luke 21:35. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by Marlbron: 9:39pm On Jul 09, 2010|
You start building a house, after the foundation, some hoodlums hijack the building and take it over. You leave in anger and later you send your labourers, but the area boys kill them, you send your chief enginer and he is similarly killed. What will be your next line of action?
a) Leave the building an buy another site for you to start the construction
b) Come in and destroy the hoodlums and take back your building project
If you intelligently answer this question then you have the answer to the authenticity of rapture. Shallom!
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by nopuqeater: 11:15pm On Jul 09, 2010|
@Marlbron: Whats your intelligent man answer? How does that support or unsupport the doctrine of Rapture?
@Aletheia: Am sure you are researching materials relevant to address my post? Thats what I hope that you are doing. Happy effort.
|Re: The Left Behind Christians by aletheia(m): 12:43am On Jul 10, 2010|
Thanks for bringing an Islamic perspective to this thread.
nopuqeater:aletheia is male not female
I must disappoint you by stating that that is not my conclusion. The word "rapture" refers to the "catching up of believers" who are then alive at the coming of Jesus of Nazareth. Every true Christian believes this will happen based on 1 Thessalonians:
ESV: I Thessalonians Chapter 4:13-17
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. [color=#990000]And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.[/color]
So you see there will be a catching up of believers (rapture) when Jesus returns.
Having established that there will be a "rapture" at the time Jesus returns. The question as I understand it is what happens to all those alive then? Jesus himself addressed this in some of his parables:
ESV: Matthew Chapter 13:37-41
He answered, The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
And furthermore. . .
ESV: I Corinthians Chapter 15:50-57
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
There will be two groups of people on earth at the return of Jesus: the good seed and the sons of the evil one. The good seed (disciples of Jesus of Nazareth) will be changed and will not die hence: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed", while the sons of the evil one (those who have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as Lord) will go into Judgment. Moreover, understand that followers of Jesus Christ are not subject to the judgment of unbelievers.
ESV: Romans Chapter 8:33-34
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Revelation of John Chapter 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
nopuqeater:Jesus died at his first coming. More than that, he rose alive from death and is coming a second time to judge the world in righteousness and holiness. God commands men everywhere to repent of their evil deeds and put their hope in Jesus of Nazareth.
ESV: Acts Chapter 4:10-12
"let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
I know you will probably find this hard to take because all your life as a Muslim, you have been told that Jesus did not die. But I would beg you to sincerely examine the historical evidence for yourself, asking God to show you the truth, for on your decision concerning who Jesus of Nazareth is, hangs your eternal destiny.
nopuqeater:This is one of the points of disagreement of between our two faiths. But there are some points of congruence, where Islam agrees with Christianity (correct me if I am wrong).
1. Jesus was unique among the prophets.
2. He had no earthly father.
3. He is known as the Word of God.
4. He was without sin.
5. He is returning one day.
6. He will judge the world, when he returns.
Ask yourself this: why is it that of all the prophets, only Jesus of Nazareth has these unique attributes? To what purpose, and for what end? Where Islam struggles with the idea of the vicarious atonement of Jesus of Nazareth is expressed succinctly by your words:
nopuqeater:1. God is Perfect Love.
2. God is Perfect Justice.
3. Perfect Love Forgives.
4. Perfect Justice Demands Judgment and Punishment
5. How do you reconcile Perfect Love & Perfect Justice?
For men, it would be impossible, but for One who is All-knowing & All-powerful, it would be possible.
And in Jesus of Nazareth is this done.
He came the first time in Love, to serve (because that is the nature of Love),
ESV: Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
He will come again the second time in Justice to execute judgment on all the unrighteous.
Now when you sin against God, what can you possibly do to offset his Perfect Justice? The bible makes clear that the wages (rewards or recompense) of sin is death. . .so as a man, what can you do to offset the demands of Perfect Justice because it is impossible to escape Perfect Justice? And that's why. . .it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27), for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).
Unless someone offers to pay the ransom (take your punishment in your place), you wouldn't escape! Another man could possibly offer to take your punishment,
If there be for him an angel,
a mediator, one of the thousand,
to declare to man what is right for him,
and he is merciful to him, and says,
Deliver him from going down into the pit;
I have found a ransom;
but he would have to be blameless and not also under the penalty demanded by Perfect Justice i.e. sinless (interesting that Muslims also believe that Jesus was sinless)
ESV: Psalms 49:7-8 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.
ESV: Psalms 49:15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.
So can you see the logic here: No man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, but God will himself ransom the man's soul.
Jesus of Nazareth (the only one without sin & therefore the only one who can pay the ransom) said this:
ESV: Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and [b]to give his life as a ransom for many."[/b]
But we know that the only one without sin is God, ergo Jesus is God.
In Noah's time, God decreed that he was going to destroy the world by a flood and commanded Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the coming judgment. For the people at that time, it would have seemed a preposterous idea. Flood? What flood? When they had seen nothing like rain ever before. No doubt they scoffed at the message of Noah. How could water fall from the sky, when all their human understanding, science and knowledge suggested otherwise. We know that only those who entered the ark were saved. All those outside perished.
Jesus himself said: For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
In similar fashion, Jesus is the Ark that preserves all those who have put their trust in Him. All outside perish.
The idea that God would accept humiliation in the person of Jesus being crucified is one that you as a Muslim finds abhorrent, and you are not alone. The Jews also stumble upon this point.
ESV: I Cor 1:21-24
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
You are both right in that God is All-powerful and His Justice is Perfect but you overlook the fact that He is Perfect Love as well. Let me ask you to consider sincerely this question: "What hope do you have for facing the Creator on the Day of Judgment?" Who will be your Advocate on that Day, when you face the demands of Perfect Justice, stripped of all pretensions of Religion - whether Islam or Christianity?
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