~Sauron~:

I dunno what to say. . . . .

A lot of Poly guys had done their ICAN(PROFESSIONAL COURSE) and you expect them not to have more knowledge than their counterparts in the Uni?
I know you have to defend your certificate but you are getting a bit desperate.
There's no way a B.Sc student wouldn't have more knowledge than the HND student.

If Chartered accountants were failing poly exams, do you still think poly. courses were easy(point I was trying to make). How can I be desperate when I have the HND and Masters, abi Masters no pass Bsc.  The first set that graduated from Polytechnic Ilaro from the Accounts department were shit hot and floored ICAN exams, some polytechnics made life difficult for their students in order to prepare them for the real world.

chika98:

What is HND equivalent to in the West?

I do not think it is reckoned with in the West, I believe you will need a year or two extra to get your Bsc.

hercules07:

If Chartered accountants were failing poly exams, do you still think poly. courses were easy(point I was trying to make). How can I be desperate when I have the HND and Masters, abi Masters no pass Bsc.  The first set that graduated from Polytechnic Ilaro from the Accounts department were poo hot and floored ICAN exams, some polytechnics made life difficult for their students in order to prepare them for the real world.

If chartered accountants are failing Poly Exams, it means they would be expelled in the University.
Pure, plain and simple.

chika98:

What is HND equivalent to in the West?

A' Levels + 2 years Industrial Attachment.

hercules07:

I do not think it is reckoned with in the West, I believe you will need a year or two extra to get your Bsc.

Oh right! Gee that sounds not good then. I wonder what those at home use it for then?

~Sauron~:


A' Levels + 2 years Industrial Attachment.

Harsh man really? Why bother doing it then?

chika98:

Harsh man really? Why bother doing it then?

OND is just an excuse for doing nothing. . . . .
When these guys fail the UME exams, they get too embarrassed to sit down at home for a year. . . . .so they quickly opt for OND.
Naija folks would do anything NOT to sit around at home while some of their brilliant mates are in the University.
So when they come outta school and they can't get good jobs, they shout DISCRIMINATION.

~Sauron~:

OND is just an excuse for doing nothing. . . . .
When these guys fail the UME exams, they get too embarrassed to sit down at home for a year. . . . .so they quickly opt for OND.
Naija folks would do anything NOT to sit around at home while some of their brilliant mates are in the University.
So when they come outta school and they can't get good jobs, they shout DISCRIMINATION.

I never did understand the whole OND and HND bit. I guess that puts things into
perspective a bit

~Sauron~:

If chartered accountants are failing Poly Exams, it means they would be expelled in the University.
Pure, plain and simple.

A' Levels + 2 years Industrial Attachment.

Apparently, you think it is easy to be a Chartered Accountant, especially in the 90s, some of those polys really trained their students well (University Students would have failed that exam as well, it took an ICAN examiner, 2 Classes to finish the questions in the exams). University that you are bigging up na him I get my masters from and it was no big deal. University Curriculum in a lot of courses is broader than that of Polytechnic, but, it does not make Poly courses to be easier, infact, the reverse is the case (I know about Accounting in Yaba Tech. in the 90s o). We will have to agree to disagree on this.

@Chika98
I attended Polytechnics by choice, when it was time to move up I attended the Premier University for my Masters, have I regretted it, maybe some times, but, looking back at my career path, it has been worth it.

hercules07:

@Chika98
I attended Polytechnics by choice, when it was time to move up I attended the Premier University for my Masters, have I regretted it, maybe some times, but, looking back at my career path, it has been worth it.

This bit is all that matters. Keep doing you!

hercules07:

Apparently, you think it is easy to be a Chartered Accountant, especially in the 90s, some of those polys really trained their students well (University Students would have failed that exam as well, it took an ICAN examiner, 2 Classes to finish the questions in the exams). University that you are bigging up na him I get my masters from and it was no big deal. University Curriculum in a lot of courses is broader than that of Polytechnic, but, it does not make Poly courses to be easier, infact, the reverse is the case (I know about Accounting in Yaba Tech. in the 90s o). We will have to agree to disagree on this.

I have a degree in Engineering
The last time i did anything remotely resembling accounting was in JSS3(Business studies) and i am now on the last leg of the ACCA thingy.
I only started doing it in 2008.
I dunno why peops find accounting so hard. It's mathematics and principles and i tell you. . . the exams are not too difficult so what are you ON about?

~Sauron~:

OND is just an excuse for doing nothing. . . . .
When these guys fail the UME exams, they get too embarrassed to sit down at home for a year. . . . .so they quickly opt for OND.
Naija folks would do anything NOT to sit around at home while some of their brilliant mates are in the University.
So when they come outta school and they can't get good jobs, they shout DISCRIMINATION.

Not everybody went into the polytechnic blindly, using myself as an example, I got admitted to the Poly, couple of months later got admitted to the university as well(scored 259, ife Elect/Elect was 249 in 1993), but, because I had job already lined up, continued with the OND, got the job, did my HND while still working and now I have got my Masters. HND is not at the same level as BSc, no one is disputing that, but polytechnics as at when I attended it was not for idiots and you worked your socks off if you wanted to pass.

~Sauron~:

I have a degree in Engineering
The last time i did anything remotely resembling accounting was in JSS3(Business studies) and i am now on the last leg of the ACCA thingy.
I only started doing it in 2008.
I dunno why peops find accounting so hard. It's mathematics and principles and i tell you. . . the exams are not too difficult so what are you ON about?

Why do peeps find CCIE ( google CCIE R and S Lab) hard, afterall it is just about routing and switching. You need to look at the mentality of the governing body, ICAN was bloodily difficult in the 90s, I dont know about now.

@Sauron,

Abeg wify dey call, make I no face queries for house . Nice to know we could banter without insults, take care.

chika98:

What is HND equivalent to in the West?

Chika, dont ALWAYS belive everything u read ooo.  However, for reason of clarity, i advise you to (re)define what you may mean by 'the west'?  Here in the UK, it used to be (and still is) = HND. There is also HNC (certificate) version, which takes 6 months shorter to do. In RSA (Southey), it is equivalent to ND (national diploma).

My mates who did BSc with me at uniport, and found themselves in the UK subsequently, could not get jobs. Why? Inferior quality, and am talking dem days when naija degrees were kosher! Those who did HND in naja, where did it get them here? NOWHERE! Why? Samething - inferior quality, so that Oronsanye nonsense is what we call;

a NO BRAINER!!  (rubbish, frivolous talk, thats neither here nor there!)

It wouldnt have been a problem worth discussing and highlighting on here, if it wasnt that this man was (and still is) saddled ith the responsibility of making the Naija Civil Service better. So, he should be expected to be circumspect with words and ideas. Things like that will affect a whole generation!

In more advanced climates, he would have been asked to RESIGN, for such frivolous talk (please see Obama vs Gen McChrystal).

Why so? Because, he effectively sabotaged the government policy of Yar'Adua, which he swore to obey and deliver on, while taking the job as top dog in Civil service, when he accepted the directive to equalise HND and BSc, but instead sat on it and did jack!

A bit like, government saying, from today everything will be done on due process, and the civil servants (like they all do!) say yeah, yeah!

We wont leave the cave we find ourselves in Nigeria, if we continue like this, are we?

Those who use the SUBJECTIVE criteria of one is harder, or easier to get into, have been long ago left behind by the modern world, who have (also) long ago cottoned onto the idea of using better, more OBJECTIVE criteria to set their policies and targets.

hercules07:

@Sauron,
Abeg wify dey call, make I no face queries for house  . Nice to know we could banter without insults, take care.

Say hi to your wifey . . . .

hercules07:

Not everybody went into the polytechnic blindly, using myself as an example, I got admitted to the Poly, couple of months later got admitted to the university as well(scored 259, ife Elect/Elect was 249 in 1993), but, because I had job already lined up, continued with the OND, got the job, did my HND while still working and now I have got my Masters. HND is not at the same level as BSc, no one is disputing that, but polytechnics as at when I attended it was not for idiots and you worked your socks off if you wanted to pass.

U wouldn't have survived one session in OAU Elect/Elect. . . . You are very lucky you made the right decision.

hercules07:

Why do peeps find CCIE ( google CCIE R and S Lab) hard, afterall it is just about routing and switching. You need to look at the mentality of the governing body, ICAN was bloodily difficult in the 90s, I dont know about now.

I know about CCIE, mate.
That's a different ball game. . . . . . Ask yourself, how many Africans have CCIE?
How many people can even afford to pay for the exams?

I think this so called head of civil service is confused. If HND is not equivalent to B.SC, how come international bodies like the world education service recognize HND from any accredited polytechnic in Nigeria. HND is equivalent to any 4 year degree course (B.SC) in the U.S. Anyone with HND from any accredited institution in Nigeria will be consider for admission into a master degree program. Though some institution in the U.S require GRE/GMAT for admission into a master degree program even if one graduate with B.SC from a U.S accredited institution.

Lol, how can anyone equate HND to BSc? Both schools, poly and uni have their purposes. Trying to equate them is defeating the purpose. Why don't we just scrap all polys then?

If anyone with a HND needs a BSc, shouldn't he/she just go to a Uni and start from yr 2(or3)? I have a lot of friends who did that.

I attended both a Poly and a Uni (both Engineering courses) and I can confidently say without any form of bias, the standards are totally different.
When I was at ND1 at Yabatech, I had a much older friend who was in HND1 and by the time I came back for HND1, the guy was a lecturer teaching ND1 students. Some of my lecturers were BSc holders and that was in the early 2000s. If you allow BSc and HND holders to teach in polys, what kind of output do you expect? Now Im not saying all my lecturers were bad but when the standards are low, what do you expect?

At least I know at Unilag, Engineering faculty, you must at least have a MSc before you can lecture and you must be working towards your PhD. Now compare both standards and see if you expect the students from both institutions (poly and uni) to be the same.

Overall though, Nigerian educational system needs a total revamping. We need to rebuild our structures. Polys were intriduced for a reason and same with Unis. If a poly student goes into civil service and knows he will not rise above a certain level cos of his certificate, shouldn't he/she work towards improving such? Even a Uni student who doesn't work towards self improvement is not doing himself any good

~Sauron~:

Say hi to your wifey . . . .

U wouldn't have survived one session in OAU Elect/Elect. . . . You are very lucky you made the right decision.

I know about CCIE, mate.
That's a different ball game. . . . . . Ask yourself, how many Africans have CCIE?
How many people can even afford to pay for the exams?

Wifey says hi too . See your head, I survived masters in UI, what is OAU compared to that. My guy that CCIE na something else o.

~Sauron~:

I know about CCIE, mate.
That's a different ball game. . . . . . Ask yourself, how many Africans have CCIE?
How many people can even afford to pay for the exams?

Point of correction.
Last I checked, the CCIE lab was just over a thousand dollars (about $1,400). Lots of Africans can afford to pay for it, and lots of Africans now have the certification. Well . . . maybe not everybody, but they are all over the place now. We have a couple on the staff where I work.

@OP,
It's very difficult to say now that HND is not equal to BSc. Now they all write the UTME, the same exam, to enrol.
I say HND should be scrapped, and the polytechnic curricula upgraded. The idea of dichotomy between poly and university is very outdated. Colleges of education now award degrees, what is the government waiting for before they scrap the poly idea?

I tend to agree with proudly9ja that Unis and Polys were set up for a different reasons,
I would also like to add that educational systems the world over are organised into levels and the higher the level you attain, the more rewarding life could be hence
PHD>MSC>BSC>HND>OND, eqn 1

It would be stupid to Equate HND with BSC else
PHD=MSC=BSC=HND=OND, eqn 2
Which makes no sence

Definately eqn 1 is how life is, if you have HND, expect HND treatment, if you have BSc, expect BSc treatment, stop asking for same conditions as MSc or PHD,

If nigerian civil service decide to equate BSC to HND, they shouldn't stop there! They should equate BSC to HND to OND to COE and even WAEC, Then we can truely be satisfied with our foolishness as a nation

AjanleKoko:

Point of correction.
Last I checked, the CCIE lab was just over a thousand dollars (about $1,400). Lots of Africans can afford to pay for it, and lots of Africans now have the certification. Well . . . maybe not everybody, but they are all over the place now. We have a couple on the staff where I work.

Conveniently forgetting the $1400 excludes travelling and lodging.
Most of their labs are in the far east Asia so i ask again. . . .how many Naija graduates can afford this venture?

~Sauron~:

Conveniently forgetting the $1400 excludes travelling and lodging.
Most of their labs are in the far east Asia so i ask again. . . .how many Naija graduates can afford this venture?

Or the cost of buying/renting equipment which easily runs into several thousand pounds/dollars. Although many recent CCIEs reduce the expense through the use of dynamips. This of course assumes self-study as the cost of attending a boot camp is at least $3000. When you consider that the average CCIE will attempt the lab three times, the cost of the exam alone is in excess of $4200.

What nigeria needs to do is upgrade polytechnics into Polytechnics university. All of them.

I do not have an HND. I have university degrees.

Becomrich0:

What nigeria needs to do is upgrade polytechnics into Polytechnics university. All of them.

I do not have an HND. I have university degrees.

until they scrapped polytecnics,the problem would still continu.there is nothing like having univeristy degree in nigeria despite the falling standards.

~Sauron~:

Conveniently forgetting the $1400 excludes travelling and lodging.
Most of their labs are in the far east Asia so i ask again. . . .how many Naija graduates can afford this venture?

You are correct.
But is CCIE an exam all Nigerian graduates have to write?

Why you dey dramatize the exam? You can write it in Dubai, a $900 return destination from Lagos.
To write CCIE, you ideally would have more than a passing hands-on with Cisco equipment. Probably working as a Cisco professional.
Even in Nigeria (sigh!) network engineers can still afford $1400 + maybe another $1400 to cover expenses.

It's just a frigging exam abeg, not another way to celebrate Nigeria's poverty. Even Somalia has a CCIE, go check Cisco's website.

AjanleKoko:

You are correct.
But is CCIE an exam all Nigerian graduates have to write?

Why you dey dramatize the exam? You can write it in Dubai, a $900 return destination from Lagos.
To write CCIE,  you ideally would have more than a passing hands-on with Cisco equipment. Probably working as a Cisco professional.
Even in Nigeria (sigh!) network engineers can still afford $1400 + maybe another $1400 to cover expenses.

It's just a frigging exam abeg, not another way to celebrate Nigeria's poverty. Even Somalia has a CCIE, go check Cisco's website.

A few facts
1. It is an 8 hour practical exam
2. The pass mark is 80% and 79% is not upgraded to a pass
3. It is unusual to pass it before your third attempt. Most pass on their 4th attempt. The record is a guy who passed on his 12th attempt. Most have given up by that time.
4. Only about 20% of those who attempt the exam pass it; many give up after their 3rd/4th attempt. Even medical board exams do not have a pass rate that low.
5. Experience and exposure to Cisco equipment alone will not guarantee success
6. Those who can afford it, buy equipment worth at least £10,000.
7. A 5 day bootcamp cost at least $3000

It is arguably one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult, exams in the world; and it certainly isn't cheap.

Katsumoto:

A few facts
1. It is an 8 hour practical exam
2. The pass mark is 80% and 79% is not upgraded to a pass
3. It is unusual to pass it before your third attempt. Most pass on their 4th attempt. The record is a guy who passed on his 12th attempt. Most have given up by that time.
4. Only about 20% of those who attempt the exam pass it; many give up after their 3rd/4th attempt. Even medical board exams do not have a pass rate that low.
5. Experience and exposure to Cisco equipment alone will not guarantee success
6. Those who can afford it, buy equipment worth at least £10,000.
7. A 5 day bootcamp cost at least $3000

It is arguably one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult, exams in the world; and it certainly isn't cheap.

This is exactly why i asked him how many Nigerian graduates opt for this venture?

^^
And your collective points being?

Anyway, let's not derail the thread. We are not debating the level of ease or convenience of CCIE for Nigerian graduates.

AjanleKoko:

^^
And your collective points being?

Mine was just to shed more light on an exam that you were alluding is easily passable and affordable. The cost of the flight is not too much when compared with other expenses.

Katsumoto:

Mine was just to shed more light on an exam that you were alluding is easily passable and affordable. The cost of the flight is not too much when compared with other expenses.

This was what I said:

AjanleKoko:

You are correct.
But is CCIE an exam all Nigerian graduates have to write?

Why you dey dramatize the exam? You can write it in Dubai, a $900 return destination from Lagos.
To write CCIE, you ideally would have more than a passing hands-on with Cisco equipment. Probably working as a Cisco professional.
Even in Nigeria (sigh!) network engineers can still afford $1400 + maybe another $1400 to cover expenses.

It's just a frigging exam abeg, not another way to celebrate Nigeria's poverty. Even Somalia has a CCIE, go check Cisco's website.

Didn't say anything about the ease or otherwise of the exam. Only commented that even Nigerian network engineers can afford it. That they are able to pass it is another matter entirely.

@ajanlekoko
how many CCIE's do you guys have? it cant be many o wecosystems is a gold partner and they have/had five(i know one guy left recently) and i think there's only one other gold partner in nigeria but i cant even remember what the k-leg about them is sha. . .i dont think there are up to 20 in nigeria(heck even in weco's case, 2 of the CCIEs dont live/practice in nigeria, they just registered they're licences under weco ). . .i'll put their number at roughly 15.

@katsumoto
i know someone that passed his at his first try, it's a naija guy, and he was still a student when he did. . .

they'll be having the labs in naija for the first time later this year sef. . .i hear it's fully booked

@OP
well, i've met a couple of poly graduates and i'd say on the average, most of them dont measure up to university graduates but there's this guy i remember meeting. . .i've never seen an engineer as sound as this guy i swear. . .it's because of him i have a solid power and electronics background, and he was a poly guy. . .

truthfully most of us uni pips nowadays only know how to solve maths and physics, when it comes to the real engineering a lot of us fall short. . .i think the advantage is in the quality of staff you interact with, your thought process is bound to be better developed if you go to a university. . .my two cents. . .i cant speak for poly people sha

Nigeria is a country that thrives on division. If u ve got a BSc, u will be told that it has to be a first class and not from a state university. They will say that 2.1 in federal universities is equal to first class in first class in state universities. Now with a BSc, you will be told there are no jobs because of your school and discipline. If u have got a first class from one of their so called good schools, you will be told that you are over qualified and threat to the management.
Bottom line is that there are no jobs and Nigeria is a country that has thrived on segregation/division to avoid addressing her many problems- from rotational presidency, to quota system,fed unis vs state unis, HND vs BSc , Muslims vs Christians, south vs North etc

netotse:

@ajanlekoko
how many CCIE's do you guys have? it cant be many o wecosystems is a gold partner and they have/had five(i know one guy left recently) and i think there's only one other gold partner in nigeria but i cant even remember what the k-leg about them is sha. . .i dont think there are up to 20 in nigeria(heck even in weco's case, 2 of the CCIEs dont live/practice in nigeria, they just registered they're licences under weco ). . .i'll put their number at roughly 15.

@katsumoto
i know someone that passed his at his first try, it's a naija guy, and he was still a student when he did. . .

they'll be having the labs in naija for the first time later this year sef. . .i hear it's fully booked

In my company we have two, one left for SA recently, and we're back to one.
There are about 33 CCIEs that have attempted the exam from Nigeria. Not too many have stayed on.
The lad you speak of was an undergrad of Covenant Uni, and he passed in January 2009, at first attempt. 20-year old. Impressive.

@Topic,
Back when I was an undergrad, there was this 1-unit course, engineers in society, that we took. It basically xplained the roles of engineers, technologists, and technicians as NSE and COREN saw them.
Remarkably, the prof who took us in that course mentioned that all these things were copied from the UK. He also told us that,  at that time (very early 90s), the polytechnics in Britain were awarding degrees to PhD level, and not HNDs.