true2god:
You cannot use an isolated word, out of thousands of words in the quran, to make a general statement and draw a conclusion.

All I see you do is an attempt to elevate a foreign language as a result of the attachment you have with the religion associated with the language.

I am learning Islam, not to be a muslim, but to point out the limitations in the religion which, to me, is fair enough. Islam/Muslims are also doing the same to/on other religions.

At time I dont what to believe in Islam, the quran, mohammed or the sahabas. If the quran asked us not to drink or gamble I am very sure you wont bring us various hadith to explain this to me but anytime a possible islamic-critical verse is found in the quran, muslims start searching the seerah and the hadith to expain away the simple instruction from Allah. This is hypocrisy and a high level intellectual dishonesty on the part of my muslim friends. It is a general rule in islam that anywhere the hadith negates the quran, that hadith narration must be rejected as unauthentic, why the double standard?

This is a subjective opinion. Just as the Muslims believed that the Jews have incurred the wrath of Allah and the Christians have gone astray (surah al-fathia 6-7), the same way the Jews and the Christians view Islam as idolatry because of some paganism in Islam such as kissing the black stone, running around the kabba, etc.

Ibn Majjah is neither a jew nor a christian and besides his hadith is also graded as sahih. Why are denying any hadith narration that seems to be an embarrassment to islam?

Allah's opinion.

One misguided rabbi cannot be the face of the believing Jew, the same way you will argue that a Muslim convert to Christianity is a fake Muslim. I was expecting you to validate Mohammed's prophethood using the Torah and the Injil.

Empiree:
I used isolated word to illustrate my point. I repeat you can not translate God's words. You can only explain it because God is limitless. With explanation, always have original copy next to it like Muslims do. The reason you can not translate His words was the reason CHRISTIANITY misconstrued true identity of God till this present. And there is no way you can go back to monotheism for as long as you hold on to Bible because the distortions is irreversible unless and until you can find original Aramaic language of Jesus. Hebrew and Greek are not helping matters.

Empiree:
this is not attempt to make Arabic superior over other languages. We only respect Arabic because of Quran. Nothing more. I am telling you again that arabic speakers, while it is true that they have advantage to some degree a lot of them still may not understand religion. Ask some of them about xyz in the Qur'an, they may be able to read but may be devoid of understanding.

Empiree:
have you not shot yourself in the foot?. This is called predetermination. When you already made up your mind, you will get exactly what you are looking to get.

Empiree:
it is simple bro. I know you are responding to hadith I brought to tackle the issue of seeking guidance from you. Even without bringing Hadith, when Quran asks us to ask something from you and we already know the foundation on which your religion is built in violation of first commandment, that JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD, which in itself is confusing to Christian people, definitely Quran could not be telling us to seek guidance from you. Again, it is very simple without citing Hadith. You would say God is one as we do. But then turn around that Jesus is God or one of the gods in Trinity, and look to seek baseless explanation to prove yourself, this is a proof that we could not have been advised by Quran to seek guidance from you. Even Jews disagree with you on this issue.

Empiree:
these are baseless excuses. Kissing and tawaf are Sunnah. Not worship of black stone. Not worship of Kaaba. Qur'an and Hadith are clear on this.

Empiree:
sorry, bro. Because it is in majah doesn't mean there can't be error in it. No book on the face of the Earth without error except Quran. Allah Himself would deliberately caused these errors to prove Quran has no rival. Not even sahih Bukhari. It contains errors, too. Hadith you pointed out with respect to Aisha (ra) or that which usermane posted given Arab some sort of superiority are just like distortions found in Jewish Torah. Like for instance, they also have in their book that Jews can not be charged interest but gentiles can be charged because Jews are superior to them. Jews can not eat meat of animal that dies on its own but they can sell it to gentiles. We have clear cut evidence in the Qur'an (sura Rahman) and Hadith (last sermon) that go against such practices. Therefore the Hadith you relied on can't be valid. It is like white people claim superiority over other races. We know this is trash.

Empiree:
No, Allah Wishes and Decrees

Empiree:
I give you opportunity to and benefit of the doubt to study that part Islamic history before you disregard this. The rabbi knew his people very well. So I don't wanna say anything until you read that part of history yourself.

Empiree:
But to give you quick gist to prove his prophethood. When Nabi Muhammad (saw) arrived in Medina and after earlier tests of his prophethood by the Jews, they further tested him by bringing adulterers. This incident was a set up the same way they set up Jesus (as).

Empiree:
They said to Nabi (saw) to do justice to them. Prophet Muhammad (saw) asked them about their law in the Torah?. Their reply was that they blackened faces of fornicators and adulterers (this is man-made law they implemented) for themselves and disregarded God's Law. So prophet (saw) asked them to bring their Book and read it out. What did the Rabbis do?. While they were reading they covered the verse of stoning with their fingers and read over it. Prophet Muhammad (saw) ordered them to remove their fingers and read it out and they did by pronouncing punishment of stoning and the prophet ordered the suspect to be stoned to death. Jews and rabbis were shocked because that was the first time this punishment was carried out by Arab Prophet. Something they refused to practice in their own book(you can see why some Muslim countries still apply this judgement of Allaah in your book) This incident happened before verse of flogging was revealed in the Qur'an. Because of this they hated our prophet more.

true2god:
Maybe the dictionary meaning for 'translation' is different from the Islamic meaning which often is the case. So if the quran was written in Chinese you will hold Chinese language in pre-eminence over any language?

Don't be a hypocrite! Many Muslims also study the Bible (not to become Christians) to attacks Christianity. So what is wrong if others are doing the same.

Remember the quran also condemn the Jews for saying 'Ezra is the son of Allah' (quran 9:30), where was it written in the Torah and where did Mohamed get this teaching from?

Yes, Mohammed condemned the doctrine of the Trinity but I asked you to explain Mohammed's concept of the Trinity, using the quran and the hadith, and you refused to respond. Mohammed did not understand the concept of the Trinity in the first place and how can one condemn a concept he/she has no full knowledge of?

The Jews and the christians can also call muslims idolaters for some of their rituals and practices such as kissing the black stone and running around the kabba which are pre-islamic hindu practices and is still being practiced by the hindus till date (I can provide evidence for this if you want me to). Even Umar ibn kathab knew this act to be idolatery but decided to practice it because the Mohammed also did same (sahih bukhari 2:56:667, sahih bukari 2:26:675 & 679). Even quran 5:90 condemn this practice but Mohammed made it ok.

I like the fact that you aknowledge the fact that all Islamic source documents: the hadith, the sunnah, the seerah, the tafsir, etc are never free from numerous errors. The only issue I have is that your attempt to exempt the quran from the list. We have discussed this before, can we start mentioning various errors on the quran? We can start with this thread opened by 'Tintinz' :https://www.nairaland.com/5095109/myths-quran

I have studied enough of Islamic history and it was too bloody for me to continue.

The Jews did not accept him hence he decided on their final solution: sahih muslim 1767 (this is also recorded by Imam Bukari).

Dont blame the Jews and the Christians for Mohammed's instructions and sunnah which were extensively recorded in the hadith (sahih bukhari 6:60:79, sahih bukhari 83:37, sahih muslim 17:4196, sahih muslim 17:4206, sahih muslim 17:4209, etc). The verse for stoning was revealed but Aisha refused to drop the manuscript when the quran was being complied (sunnah ibn majjah 3:9:1944). Why did she do that? I will provide the response later. KEEP WATCHING!!!

Empiree:
This is gonna be my last post on this subject. You don't seem to get it. But I will give you one more illustration and that will be it. Before that, you seem to be saying I give superiority to Arabic language which is not the case. Quran and Sunnah are very clear that there is no superiority over another, languages, tribes, nationality, social status you name it.

So I never said Arabic can't be translated. I said we can not translate Allah's words. God's language is not Arabic. He revealed Quran in Arabic so we could understand His message. This is why some translations say translation of the meaning anytime they translate from arabic to english... which means they understood Quran can not be translated.


Example: during the course of our discussions back and forth on this topic from the other thread, I listened to a sheikh's lecture and he stumbled on middle East crisis. He cited Husni Mubarak's brutal regime for persecuting a pious sheikh who was known for issuing fatawa. Now I do not have reference for this particular incident. If you do you can please come forward with it. But I understand exactly what Sheikh was saying because it is what I wanted you to understand but you failed. The sheikh said that Husni was uncomfortable with the sheikh and sentenced him to lion in the cage. The sheikh was thrown in the cage and everybody expected lion to do the needful. Unfortunately lion was just looking at him and leaked him all through as if he knew sheikh. Lesson this Sheikh learned from this incident was that he said what do you know about Allah?. He said Allah just translated a verse of the Qur'an in the cage is the meaning of the encounter btw lion and the Sheikh. Sheikh was seen moving his lips reciting Ayah of Quran at the time. This description is called Haqiqa. So you can not translate God's words



Don't twist now. We talking about seeking or asking Jews and Christians for "guidance" as you claimed Quran said. We have no problems with muslims studying Bible for whatever reason but not as a source of guidance as you claim a verse of Qur'an alleged.



I refused to just pushed this and Trinity issue aside because they are non-issues. But for this one, bro, it is very simple now. Quran is speaking about a Jewish sect or Jewish tribe that had this belief at the time. But it is not a central belief of Judaism. And the sect died out. We don't know if they (such belief) will emerge again in the future. If you want more explanation or scholarly view on this I can post it so that you don't say this is my opinion. So this Quran is not false.


I'm just gonna let this sit right here bcuz this is the central system of your believe we have already trashed few yrs ago but you want me to revisit. No problem I will as soon as I am chanced. If I understand correctly, since you seem to defend this Trinity thing it means you belief it contrary to some Christians. I tried to figure this out few yrs ago when we were debating with Christians back then (2014, 15, 16). But you hide your belief on this topic. Now it is clear that you believe Trinity. I shouldn't have to say anything on this since there are Christians who don't believe this. I should let you and them sort it out. Whoever is the winner can come forward to us. Iu need to first all know why other Christians don't believe in concert of Trinity.



ayah of Quran you provided as evidence made no mention of tawaf and kissing stone. And just bcus a practice predated Islam does not always invalidate all practices. R instance, ziyara (visitation of graves) was always practiced before Islam. When prophet muhammad came, he stopped it temporarily to allow his sahaba to be firmed on tawheed. That's, to be able to differentiate kufr (polytheism) from tawheed (Oneness of God). So he (saw) now allowed Muslims to visit graves. Why don't you say grave visit is polytheism?. All mankind regardless of faith or race practice this. The difference is our intent not the actual kissing, running around Kaaba or visiting graves. Since Islam already established tawheed it is impossible for CHRISTIANs to accuse Muslims of polytheism in this case. But Hinduism on the other hand is established on the foundation of polytheism. Even cow is God to them the same way Jesus it's God to you. Therefore, if Christians now to, run around it pray to Jesus or the so called statues of Mary, this is shirk bcus your belief system is base on this. But belief of the Muslims is not base on Kaaba is God or kisses of black stone is Divine or so significant that it invalidates Hajj. It is simply a recommended act. You don't have to kiss it. They are simply symbols and tawasul.



you can "fight" Quran all you want. You will never find mistakes or errors except what you failed to comprehend, sir. What time do I have with that fake atheist selling relevance



at some point, you have dirty bloody history, don't you?. There were evil leaders and there is no doubt about that. We don't deny that.



you did injustice to yourself by quoting isolated Hadith. Is this scholarship?.



sorry, buddy. If you can't bring verse of stoning in the Quran it doesn't exist. You have it in your book. Don't you think you should think about enforcing it on Christians

Empiree:
This is gonna be my last post on this subject. You don't seem to get it. But I will give you one more illustration and that will be it. Before that, you seem to be saying I give superiority to Arabic language which is not the case. Quran and Sunnah are very clear that there is no superiority over another, languages, tribes, nationality, social status you name it.

So I never said Arabic can't be translated. I said we can not translate Allah's words. God's language is not Arabic. He revealed Quran in Arabic so we could understand His message. This is why some translations say translation of the meaning anytime they translate from arabic to english... which means they understood Quran can not be translated.


Example: during the course of our discussions back and forth on this topic from the other thread, I listened to a sheikh's lecture and he stumbled on middle East crisis. He cited Husni Mubarak's brutal regime for persecuting a pious sheikh who was known for issuing fatawa. Now I do not have reference for this particular incident. If you do you can please come forward with it. But I understand exactly what Sheikh was saying because it is what I wanted you to understand but you failed. The sheikh said that Husni was uncomfortable with the sheikh and sentenced him to lion in the cage. The sheikh was thrown in the cage and everybody expected lion to do the needful. Unfortunately lion was just looking at him and leaked him all through as if he knew sheikh. Lesson this Sheikh learned from this incident was that he said what do you know about Allah?. He said Allah just translated a verse of the Qur'an in the cage is the meaning of the encounter btw lion and the Sheikh. Sheikh was seen moving his lips reciting Ayah of Quran at the time. This description is called Haqiqa. So you can not translate God's words



Don't twist now. We talking about seeking or asking Jews and Christians for "guidance" as you claimed Quran said. We have no problems with muslims studying Bible for whatever reason but not as a source of guidance as you claim a verse of Qur'an alleged.



I refused to just pushed this and Trinity issue aside because they are non-issues. But for this one, bro, it is very simple now. Quran is speaking about a Jewish sect or Jewish tribe that had this belief at the time. But it is not a central belief of Judaism. And the sect died out. We don't know if they (such belief) will emerge again in the future. If you want more explanation or scholarly view on this I can post it so that you don't say this is my opinion. So this Quran is not false.


I'm just gonna let this sit right here bcuz this is the central system of your believe we have already trashed few yrs ago but you want me to revisit. No problem I will as soon as I am chanced. If I understand correctly, since you seem to defend this Trinity thing it means you belief it contrary to some Christians. I tried to figure this out few yrs ago when we were debating with Christians back then (2014, 15, 16). But you hide your belief on this topic. Now it is clear that you believe Trinity. I shouldn't have to say anything on this since there are Christians who don't believe this. I should let you and them sort it out. Whoever is the winner can come forward to us. Iu need to first all know why other Christians don't believe in concert of Trinity.



ayah of Quran you provided as evidence made no mention of tawaf and kissing stone. And just bcus a practice predated Islam does not always invalidate all practices. R instance, ziyara (visitation of graves) was always practiced before Islam. When prophet muhammad came, he stopped it temporarily to allow his sahaba to be firmed on tawheed. That's, to be able to differentiate kufr (polytheism) from tawheed (Oneness of God). So he (saw) now allowed Muslims to visit graves. Why don't you say grave visit is polytheism?. All mankind regardless of faith or race practice this. The difference is our intent not the actual kissing, running around Kaaba or visiting graves. Since Islam already established tawheed it is impossible for CHRISTIANs to accuse Muslims of polytheism in this case. But Hinduism on the other hand is established on the foundation of polytheism. Even cow is God to them the same way Jesus it's God to you. Therefore, if Christians now to, run around it pray to Jesus or the so called statues of Mary, this is shirk bcus your belief system is base on this. But belief of the Muslims is not base on Kaaba is God or kisses of black stone is Divine or so significant that it invalidates Hajj. It is simply a recommended act. You don't have to kiss it. They are simply symbols and tawasul.



you can "fight" Quran all you want. You will never find mistakes or errors except what you failed to comprehend, sir. What time do I have with that fake atheist selling relevance



at some point, you have dirty bloody history, don't you?. There were evil leaders and there is no doubt about that. We don't deny that.



you did injustice to yourself by quoting isolated Hadith. Is this scholarship?.



sorry, buddy. If you can't bring verse of stoning in the Quran it doesn't exist. You have it in your book. Don't you think you should think about enforcing it on Christians

Empiree:
This is gonna be my last post on this subject. You don't seem to get it. But I will give you one more illustration and that will be it. Before that, you seem to be saying I give superiority to Arabic language which is not the case. Quran and Sunnah are very clear that there is no superiority over another, languages, tribes, nationality, social status you name it.

Empiree:
So I never said Arabic can't be translated. I said we can not translate Allah's words. God's language is not Arabic. He revealed Quran in Arabic so we could understand His message. This is why some translations say translation of the meaning anytime they translate from arabic to english... which means they understood Quran can not be translated.

Empiree:
Example: during the course of our discussions back and forth on this topic from the other thread, I listened to a sheikh's lecture and he stumbled on middle East crisis. He cited Husni Mubarak's brutal regime for persecuting a pious sheikh who was known for issuing fatawa. Now I do not have reference for this particular incident. If you do you can please come forward with it. But I understand exactly what Sheikh was saying because it is what I wanted you to understand but you failed. The sheikh said that Husni was uncomfortable with the sheikh and sentenced him to lion in the cage. The sheikh was thrown in the cage and everybody expected lion to do the needful. Unfortunately lion was just looking at him and leaked him all through as if he knew sheikh. Lesson this Sheikh learned from this incident was that he said what do you know about Allah?. He said Allah just translated a verse of the Qur'an in the cage is the meaning of the encounter btw lion and the Sheikh. Sheikh was seen moving his lips reciting Ayah of Quran at the time. This description is called Haqiqa. So you can not translate God's words

Empiree:
Don't twist now. We talking about seeking or asking Jews and Christians for "guidance" as you claimed Quran said. We have no problems with muslims studying Bible for whatever reason but not as a source of guidance as you claim a verse of Qur'an alleged.

Empiree:
I refused to just pushed this and Trinity issue aside because they are non-issues. But for this one, bro, it is very simple now. Quran is speaking about a Jewish sect or Jewish tribe that had this belief at the time. But it is not a central belief of Judaism. And the sect died out. We don't know if they (such belief) will emerge again in the future. If you want more explanation or scholarly view on this I can post it so that you don't say this is my opinion. So this Quran is not false.

Empiree:
I'm just gonna let this sit right here bcuz this is the central system of your believe we have already trashed few yrs ago but you want me to revisit. No problem I will as soon as I am chanced. If I understand correctly, since you seem to defend this Trinity thing it means you belief it contrary to some Christians. I tried to figure this out few yrs ago when we were debating with Christians back then (2014, 15, 16). But you hide your belief on this topic. Now it is clear that you believe Trinity. I shouldn't have to say anything on this since there are Christians who don't believe this. I should let you and them sort it out. Whoever is the winner can come forward to us. Iu need to first all know why other Christians don't believe in concert of Trinity.

Empiree:
ayah of Quran you provided as evidence made no mention of tawaf and kissing stone. And just bcus a practice predated Islam does not always invalidate all practices. R instance, ziyara (visitation of graves) was always practiced before Islam. When prophet muhammad came, he stopped it temporarily to allow his sahaba to be firmed on tawheed. That's, to be able to differentiate kufr (polytheism) from tawheed (Oneness of God). So he (saw) now allowed Muslims to visit graves. Why don't you say grave visit is polytheism?. All mankind regardless of faith or race practice this. The difference is our intent not the actual kissing, running around Kaaba or visiting graves. Since Islam already established tawheed it is impossible for CHRISTIANs to accuse Muslims of polytheism in this case. But Hinduism on the other hand is established on the foundation of polytheism. Even cow is God to them the same way Jesus it's God to you. Therefore, if Christians now to, run around it pray to Jesus or the so called statues of Mary, this is shirk bcus your belief system is base on this. But belief of the Muslims is not base on Kaaba is God or kisses of black stone is Divine or so significant that it invalidates Hajj. It is simply a recommended act. You don't have to kiss it. They are simply symbols and tawasul.

Empiree:
you can "fight" Quran all you want. You will never find mistakes or errors except what you failed to comprehend, sir. What time do I have with that fake atheist selling relevance

Empiree:
at some point, you have dirty bloody history, don't you?. There were evil leaders and there is no doubt about that. We don't deny that.

Empiree:
you did injustice to yourself by quoting isolated Hadith. Is this scholarship?.

Empiree:
sorry, buddy. If you can't bring verse of stoning in the Quran it doesn't exist. You have it in your book. Don't you think you should think about enforcing it on Christians

true2god:
And the sect died out: when did they die out?

Which Jewish material, for the past 3500 years, did they call 'Ezra the son of Allah?'. The quran makes a claim that Muslims has no prove or cannot defend except telling us that the sects that believed that doctrine has died out. A yoruba adage says: a liar will make a dead man his witness. This is exactly what Muslims are doing. If no living being can collaborate your claim that mean that claim is a lie.

I am not re-visiting the issue of the 'Trinity' except for the fact that you brough it up again. My only question to you was, for you, to explain Mohammed's cocept of the Trinity, using the quran and the hadith, and relate same to the Christian's concept. This is allow us have a better understanding of the source of the doctrinal confusions will see in terms of Mohammed's claims/objections on the subject of the Trinity.

You are muddling things up here. Grave worship, reverencing animate/inanimate objects (like kissing the black stone), visiting a graveyard as a religious functions (like a form of necromancy and ancestral worship) are all idolatry. To Muslims some of the practices might be ok, but to the Christians, they are idol worship. As i said earlier, kissing black stone and running around an inanimate object (7 times around the kabba) was practiced (as still being practiced) by the Hindus long before Islam, so what makes Islamic practice right and Hinduism wrong in terms of these two similar practices, of which Islam even borrowed from the Hindus here.

There are so many scientific, geographical and historical mistakes in the quran. If you care I can provide them to you. Stop making a bold claim you cannot defend.

Christianity, at the height of the papal power was bloody, especially the time of the crusade and the inquisition. Christianity, to the Pope (the papal power), is a political rather than a spiritual institution hence using religion as a political tool for oppression and even murder.

Islam, since inception, has been fraught with blood and warfare, from the time of Mohammed, the time of the rightly guided caliphate, till the time of the Ottoman empire. It is, as a matter of religious duty to fight for the cause of Allah, especially against the Dar al-Harb (house of war, land not yet conquured by Islam). Christianity, unlike Islam, does not divide the qorld into Dar al-Harb (house of war) and Dar-salam (house of peace, lands under Islamic rule)

I have already quoted an hadith by Ibn majjah (an Islamic source document) why the verse of stoning was not included in the quran. Besides, there are many hadith narrations in sahih bukari (deemed authentic) that contains many narrations that sanctioned stoning as a form of punishment for adultery. If the compilers of the quran excluded it from the quran, it is never my fault.

Empiree:
Lol, you are asking me. The same way chrsitians those days dressed faded or died out is the same way this died out. You all now wear tie and suit.

Empiree:
This is simple now. As I said earlier, what was reported was that it was either one Jew or small group of Jews that held this belief. One thing is clear, not all Jews said this belief. Therefore, it wasnt a widespread belief amongst the Jews. You may now ask, "what's the significance of it for Quran to even mention it in the first place?". Well, The Quran rebukes heretical and erroneous beliefs of the Jews and Christians, whether those beliefs are widespread or not. Gordon Newby in his book 'A history of the Jews of Arabia' says that in the book of Enoch, Uzayr was assimilated into the 'Metatron' - the creator of angel and thus was a son of God. This is an ancient debate between the rabbinic and kararite Jews. Try to research more thoroughly next time. Gordon D. Newby is acclaimed specialist in Islamic, Jewish and Comparative Studies in the Department of Middle Eastern and South Asian Studies and a Professor in the Graduate Program of West and South Asian Religions. He is still alive and probably held the belief. It is the same way unitarian christianity is not common amongst christians. If a christian denies Jesus is God in the presence of many christians today, you would think such christian is a muslim. So it was minority Jews who held the belief. Therefore, it could not have made it to mainstream Jewish text but Quran captured it.

Empiree:
Here we go again. Qur'an did not say 'trinity' or place Mary in that concept. This is what Quran says “And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? 5:116

Empiree:
So it is evangelical christians that twisted words of Quran saying Quran say Mary is part of the trinity. This is your conclusion not Quran. But this doesn't mean there aren't christians in history who held this belief just like the story of Ezra which was held by minority Jews. In the same fashion, some christians might but Quran did not say Mary was part of trinity.

Empiree:
"grave worship". Who is talking about grave worship?. I said ziyara to the grave i:e visitation. You cant tell the difference?. Kissing Kaaba or stone is not worship. They are sunnah just like is recommended that after we make wudu, anytime we want to read Quran, we should kiss it. You haven't seen muslims kissed Quran?. They worship Wura in the context?. Kissin of Quran and kissing black stone are in the same context.

Empiree:
Bold is meant to scare me off? Instead of asking me first, why not simply post those "many mistakes"?

Empiree:
This is true christianity. You can not understand Bible Jesus better than them. What you have now is separation of power which is against Jesus teachings. Jesus tried to enforce his political power of them and of course he was thier spiritual rabbi. Why did modern Christianity separated the two?. You must be fake christian. The height of papal power was true Christianity. They combined Old and New Testaments but you ran away from OT.

Empiree:
Dont worry about islam. You just confirmed christianity is bloody religion ffron inception, too. Why are you trying to single out islam?

Empiree:
Again, i still dont understand why you singled out islam when it is written clearly in your Bible that punishment for adultery is stoning to death. Why is this significant?. But if you claimed it was expunged from Quran to prove its distortion, the only evidence you can effectively bring is prophet muhammad himself. What you read in sahih Bukhari and ibn majah were simply narrations of incidents before verse of flogging was revealed. Even what is generally understood is that if a verse of Quran was cancelled, it is still in the Quran. But in this case you're saying verse of stoning was overridden or expunged from Quran. This is false regardless of narrations you read.

true2god:
You can't compare a belief system with fashion. Fashion changes year by year but beliefs, culture, doctrines survives for 1000s of years. You made a claim that the Jews who held the believe that 'Ezra is the son of Allah' had dies out and I asked you when they died out and if there is any fringe Jewish sect that hold this belief but you couldn't provide. It is either Mohammed was ignorant of Jewish belief systems or simply confused.

Muslim scholars found a basis for the first claim – that some Jews actually considered Ezra to be the son of God – in a Jewish work entitled The Fourth Book of Ezra (probably composed in the first century CE), which had not been included in the Hebrew Bible but which rabbis still read and consulted (it belongs to a body of works known as the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, namely works that claimed to be written by some Old Testament figures such as Enoch but which were really produced in the Hellenistic or early Roman periods). Fourth Ezra tells how Ezra led the Children of Israel after their return from the Babylonian exile, when their scriptures had been lost (this is all in the Bible’s book of Ezra as well). Ezra is given inspiration by God to reconstitute the Torah in 451 BCE. As a reward, God tells Ezra that “You shall be taken up from among men, and henceforth you shall live with my son….” Here it is important to remember that, like the belief of the Quraysh that angels were the daughters of God (“We worship the angels, who are daughters of God,” said the Quraysh to the Prophet in Ibn Isḥāq’s Sīra; see also Quran 17:40, 37:150-53), in Jewish scriptures of this period angels were called the children of God.

Quoting contemporary scholarship to buttress an unknown religious view is like a scientist proving the existence of dinosaur in china. It will surely be fraught with conjectures, bias and at times, outright lies. I expected you to quote a Jewish source, religious materials, the Talmud (at least) or a religiously sanctioned scholarly material to prove that this believe system was held at any time, but you couldn't produce any. You cannot make a fact from an hypothesis. The so-called acclaimed specialist in Islamic, Jewish and Comparative Studies was probably doing a guess work, using quran as a yardstick for his scholarly program on the subject matter. Clinging on a straw to validate an obviously false or controversial doctrine, as propagated by Mohammed, does not make sense. It is a high level of intellectual dishonesty. Give me a single prove from ancient or contemporary Jewish scripture that validates mohammed's claim.

That's the concept of the Trinity as known to mohammed: the father, the son and mary. All attempt by muslim apologist to explain this fact away is very ridiculous. I asked you a simple question will you have consistently failed to answer: what is mohammed's concept of the Trinity using the quran and the hadith only?

There you go again; always making a claim that a fringe minority held a belief without a single prove. Can you give a single christian, either old or contemporary, group that hold this belief? You will soon tell me that they have died out hence no trace for this group.

Kissing the black stone is a religious duty in Islam and not a picnic. Any reverencing, for religious purpose, of stones, trees, rivers, sea, etc is idolatory. What if I, as a muslim, also keep a black stone in my village in Oshogbo and decided to kiss it after solat, is my stone in Oshogbo a form of idolatry while the one in mecca in from God?

Bro, stop talking like Ahmed Deedat or Zakir Naik. At no time did Jesus got engaged in world politics. He made it clear to his disciples: 'my kingdom is not of this world'. He did not engage in warfare nor killed anyone, unlike Mohammed. He didn't separate the world between the ummah and the kafir and never instituted a war against the so-called 'polythiest'. Christianity, unlike Islam, was not built on conflict and confusion. The Pope was brutal at the height of their power and most of their crusade was against Islamic aggression. The Spanish inquisition was also a response to the aggression and occupation of the Islamic moorish Spain. Most of the papal battle was against Islamic incursion into the then known Christian worlds.

In any case, we cannot destroy the hadith of Ibn majjah and bukari if some of their hadith does not agree with your belief. Over 90% of Islamic laws and jurisprudence are in the hadith and not the quran. All your 5 pillars of Islam are in the hadith and not in the quran, except zakat. So what does this tell us? The hadith is far more important than the Quran. So if the hadith prescribes stoning as a punishment for adultery, which all the 5 schools of Islamic taught agreed upon, it is a mainstream islamic teachings and practices. As Christians, we are in time of grace and not bound by the traditional law of moses hence we did away with stoning and embrace love and forgiveness. Jesus already set a standard for this practice in the injil and even the Jews no longer practice it (except Muslims).

Empiree:
My post clearly said this belief was held by small group but did not make it to mainstream. So you asking me to provide reference from Jewish Book is kinda useless since main Jewish believe fo go against it. That been said, an explanation given by Muslim scholars from the time of al-Jāḥiẓ and al-Ṭabarī (d. 923) was that this belief had, in fact, been held by a group of Jews in Arabia, but that this sect had died out. Ibn Ḥazm, the famous Andalusian scholar (d. 1064), wrote that there was a group of Jews in Yemen who believed this. Interestingly, an inscription from a 4th-6th-century CE Jewish temple in South Arabia suggests possible angel worship. A second explanation was that this Quranic verse related to the verse immediately following it: ‘They have taken their rabbis and monks as lords apart from God…’ (Quran 9:31). In other words, Jews venerated Ezra so much that it was as if he were a god to them.

Empiree:
Another possibility is that ʿUzayr as mentioned in the Quran was never a one-for-one counterpart of Ezra. First, the Quran does not actually specify that Jews believed that Ezra was the son of God; it says that they said that ʿUzayr was the son of God(sura 9:30). The Quran provides no more information about ʿUzayr, nor do the mainstay Hadith collections. A Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari reiterates the claim made in the Quran, and a Hadith in the Sunan of Abū Dāwūd quotes the Prophet ﷺ as saying that he does not know if ʿUzayr is a prophet or not. What other information we find in less critical collections of Hadiths comes from stories drawn from figures like the Successor (and Jewish convert to Islam) Kaʿb al-Aḥbār (d. circa 653) and the early collector of stories of the prophets, Wahb b. Munabbih (d. 732), without any chain of transmission to any authoritative source.

Empiree:
The 80 years old Gordon D. Newby is not a muslim. He simply studied this subject. He is probably Jewish.

Empiree:
wrong question. Prophet MUhammad (saw) believed not in trinity concept. It is your believe. Quran made no mention of trinity. It simply said christians took Jesus as god which you can't deny and some christians take his mother as god. While it is true that most Christians TODAY do not worship Mary, but MANY heretical Christians THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAD DONE SO.

That is why Sura 5 Verse 116 states :

"And behold ... Didst thou say unto men, Take me( to answer all the Christians throughout history ) and my mother ( to answer those Christians in history who worshipped Mary ) for two gods beside Allah?"

POSITION of MANY Christian Churches is MORE RIDICULOUS:

"Mary is Mother of God

"495 ... In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [Catechism of the Catholic Church,] (p. 125)"

Empiree:
There is only one black stone. Any other is counterfeit. Not kissing black stone invalidates Hajj?. This is your homework.

Empiree:
Even after his statements recorded in your bible are clear?

Empiree:
Your hypocrisy stinks. So i need not reply this bcuz it is a long winded argument.

true2god:
Good day bro.

Muslim scholars have no intellectual or religious authority to speak about Jewish doctrine, especially on controversial view (quran 9:30) held by Muslims which are completely strange to the Jews. If I tell you that there are some Muslims who, in 830-1115AD, held the belief that Mohammed descended from the moon and equally believe that the moon is where Allah lives, how will Muslims take my belief? Of course you will ask for a proof, then I will tell you that only a minority of Muslims held that view and that all of them (who held such belief) have died out hence the belief does not survive among the contemporary Muslims. This is exactly how quran 9:30 sound to an average Jew because such belief never existed in the fist place except on the mind of Mohammed.

On the second statement: They have taken their rabbis and monks as lords apart from God…’ (Quran 9:31), this issue is prevalent in many religion where sect/religious leaders are exalted so much as to put God in the second fiddle. It is an observation and not a religious doctrine of accepting the rabbis and the monks as Lords. People tend to respect religious leaders above God, the say way many Muslims respect Mohammed above Allah.

Many a time a possibility is still an assumption. You seem to attempt to tell us that the quran never really said the Jews 'BELIEVED' but only 'SAID' that Ezra is 'the son of Allah'. How can religious people profess what they do not believe? Christians do SAY 'Jesus is Lord' and they also BELIEVED that 'Jesus is Lord'. Proclamation and belief go side by side.

You also make this claim: A Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari reiterates the claim made in the Quran, and a Hadith in the Sunan of Abū Dāwūd quotes the Prophet ﷺ as saying that he does not know if ʿUzayr is a prophet or not.
, this shows the limitations your prophet had on the understanding of the Jewish scriptures/characters. If your prophet is not sure of the personality of Ezra with respect to his prophethood, how can we take his alleged revelation concerning quran 9:30 serious?

Age is not a criteria for religious and intellectual scholarship. He studied the subject but also has his bias. No any book, written outside the quran, do validate mohammed's claim in quran 9:30.

Mohammed talked about the concept of Trinity in quran 4:171:

Sahih International : O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

You can look it up and explain quran 4:171 to me. For the 3rd time, can you please explain who quran considered the 3 gods in Christianity?

The Hindus also kiss their religious black stone, Shiva Lingam, long before Islam. As a matter of fact, the Hindus has been kissing and worshiping their black stone thousands of years before Islam. According to you, the hindus black stone is fake while the muslims' black stone is the original. Motigbo sir!

You need to show me where Jesus killed people (as Mohammed did) or ordered a military campaign (as Mohammed did) against the infidels. And note, the Jewish rabbi and the occupying Roman power were not sympathetic to Jesus yet no war recorded between them.

Where is the hypocrisy from me? I said that the christian new testament has abrogated the concept of stoning people for adultery and even the Jews no longer practice it, so what is the hypocrisy? In saudi Arabia and Iran, whats the penalty for adultery?

Empiree:
Your analogy is incredibly illogical. Let's assume such belief was held. First all, analogy you used is not sinful or very less sinful because it is not major sin. Such believe is simply EXERGGERATION and of course, we would show them proofs otherwise. But to say Ezra is God was a major sin was the reason Quran captured it. Now take a look at the story of golden calf. This is famous history in Bible (Exodus 32:4) and Qur'an (Tãhã 95) that, after Moses went to collect Commandments, before he returned to his people, they had already crafted calf and worshipped it. Today, do Jews still held this belief, that golden calf is god?. The belief faded but quite documented bcuz it was exerggerated by mainstream. Even at that time of Moses not all Israelites worshipped this idol. So how could handful of Jews not called Ezra god if they could worship golden calf?

Empiree:
praises of Nabi Muhammad (saw) is within limit. This Ayah of Quran is in broad context that even Muslims can fall into it. It is not simply about praising individual. It is also about obeying and following a leader even if he gives clear commands that contravene God's Law. In Islamic terminology it is called shirk.

Shirk is not only about worshipping idols. It also means; for instance, we know homosexual is forbidden in God's Law and human are expected to enforce this Law. But today, political leaders say you have freedom to do as you wish. It is no longer punishable offense to be gay. So if individual in anti gay country practices homosexual secretly, it is no one's business. His sin is only on himself. But it gets to the level of shirk if political leaders sign into law making man and man gets married and issued legal certificate. What this means is that they have made what God made Haram halal. This is what the verse is referring to by saying Jews and Christians have taken their rabbis and monk as gods besides Allaah. So many political leaders today are guilty of this and those who follow them in the name of activism.

Empiree:
First, it is my fault. I should have given reference from hadith when I heard it. I simply overheard a scholar said that during his speech but I didn't take the time to double check. Besides, if there was ever such hinted Hadith, does that mean anything?. Quran already clarifies by saying some prophets were revealed to Nabi Muhammad (saw) while some were not.

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you.

Empiree:
See, we believe in what was sent down to us with absolute certainity. Besides, we know for a fact that Torah/Talmud/Gospel are distorted. This is another possibility. Now you can go ahead and accuse me of saying this issue Ezra was expunged.

Empiree:
Your claim can only be validated if you don't believe in Trinity. Trinity is your 3gods concept not Quran. The only way you can effectively refute Quran is if you don't believe Trinity. So here, Quran is simply telling you to desist from such destructive belief. Qur'an overheard you say "métá lókàn Bábá" and it is telling to you desist from saying or believing in such a sick doctrine. It is not affirming Qur'an concept of Trinity. For as long as there are Christians who believe in this Trinity or 3gods in one concept, the Ayah is correct. I don't even know how you go to church and sing "olohun baba, olohun ómó, olohun emimo" and still sleep comfortable at night?. I know with all discussions we have heard over the years on this subject, your inner self whispers to you in church that you are wrong. I know you would remember. You just stubbornly cling on.

Empiree:
kisses are not worship unless they attributed Divinity to it. We kiss Quran. Since when is that become act of worship?. Hindus have many deities. That's the difference.

Empiree:
Jesus life was cut short was the reason he could not complete his tasks. And he's coming back to wage his j!had on rebellious Jews and CHRISTIANS. For the fact that he beat the heck out of them in the temple is a hint. And for the fact that Matthew 10:34 and Luke 19:27 documented clear indication. These are not parables.

Empiree:
leave Saudi and Iran out of this. If they implemented stoning, it means they enforced what your religions (Judaism and Christianity) have shamelessly abandoned. Christ Fulfills the Law

This is what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one or little will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Empiree:
So where did he say he abrogated Stoning to death?. And you confessed Jews have abandoned it which means they aren't followers of Jesus yet you still support them. And pay closer attention to the highlighted of the verse say those who fulfill the law belong to God's Kingdom. Iran and Saudi uphold the Law. In another word, Muslims are the inheritance of Jesus kingdom. Old laws are not abrogated.

Empiree:
Your analogy is incredibly illogical. Let's assume such belief was held. First all, analogy you used is not sinful or very less sinful because it is not major sin. Such believe is simply EXERGGERATION and of course, we would show them proofs otherwise. But to say Ezra is God was a major sin was the reason Quran captured it. Now take a look at the story of golden calf. This is famous history in Bible (Exodus 32:4) and Qur'an (Tãhã 95) that, after Moses went to collect Commandments, before he returned to his people, they had already crafted calf and worshipped it. Today, do Jews still held this belief, that golden calf is god?. The belief faded but quite documented bcuz it was exerggerated by mainstream. Even at that time of Moses not all Israelites worshipped this idol. So how could handful of Jews not called Ezra god if they could worship golden calf?

true2god:
Using the bolded, you seem to have upgraded your argument from the Jews calling Ezra 'son of Allah' to 'God', is this claim also in the quran? The quran did not even go as far as making the claim that the Jews were calling Ezra God but you seem to be moving faster than the quran.

true2god:
You are muddling things up, like a Jehovah's witness, to validate the obvious errors in quran 9:30. Quran 9:30 said and I quote: 'the Jews said Ezra is the son of Allah' and not 'some Jews said Ezra is the son of Allah'. Look at the the definite article 'the' which indicated that, according to Mohammed, it is a mainstream belief held by the Jews, of which Mohammed/quran got it wrong.

On the issue of the golden calf you chipped in, the children of Israel had no Torah or the talmud or any organized religious belief, immediately they left Egypt. The laws and the prophet (I am not referring to the patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac or Jacob) were not in the picture yet. The golden calf is not a belief system and no doctrine was set up to support this evil. It was an idol set up by the children of Israel (I didn't use the word JEWS for obvious reason) for worship in the absence of their leader Moses. This apostasy by the children of Israel in the wilderness is never regarded as an established belief but a form of idolatory and they were eventually punished by God for this despicable act. So the comparison you attempted to make here in order to validate quran 9:30 does not make sense here. And let's even say, for the sake of argument, that children of Israel worshiped the golden calf before but they no longer do it, because it was a documented fact recorded both in the Torah and the Talmud, where was it recorded that the Jews believed that 'Ezra is the son of God'?


Shirk, according to Islamm, is associating patner with Allah and many ayah in the quran reads: 'Allah and his messenger'. There is a special relationship between Allah and his messenger that one wonders if Mohammed is not Allah himself. This scenario played out so much that Aisha, one of the prophet's wives, told Mohammed: 'it seems your Lord always hasten to satisfy your desires'(sahih Bukhari 6:60:311). Even in your shahada (sahih bukhari 4:52:196) there is always 'Allah and his messenger' before your allegiance to Islam can be valid. In your daily prayer, you must also mention Mohammed numerous times or else your prayer will not be valid. If this is not shirk I wonder what it is. And as I said earlier, Muslims seem to have reverence for Mohammed more than Allah himself.


You have to validate what your 'scholars' preach before you pass the information to others. I don't thnk you overheard this info from any scholar but from this blog which you have made reference to without showing any form of acknowledgement (see the url below)
https://almadinainstitute.org/blog/the-quran-the-jews-and-ezra-as-the-son-of-god/.

Even the writer is not sure of the claim concerning quran 9:30, it was all about guess work and muddling up of facts.



This is a standard Islamic claim without evidence. If you claim a document has been distorted it is for you to present the original copy which no Muslim could provide. If I claim that the 100 naira bill in your pocket is fake I will surely provide an original copy to compare with the fake, this is how commonsense works. To the Jews and the Christians, the quran is an outright lies and fabrications by Mohammed and his sahabas


You are always changing the goal post. You said at no where did quran talked about Trinity (three) then I presented quran 4:171 to you and you are shifting without clearing up my question. According to quran 4:171, the trinity is the father, the son and Mary and the quran got it 100% wrong because no Christian believe in such thing. If Mohammed got quran 9:30 and quran 4:171 wrong, with respect to the established Jewish and christian theology, how can we trust the quran?


I kiss my wife and peg my daughter on the cheek almost everyday that does not mean I worship them; I only show my love and admiration for them. I do not kiss them out of religious beliefs or because my 'propeht' kissed his wives. If I however kiss a stone, as part of my religios rite anytime I go for hajj in mecca, that's idolatry. Idolatrous practices might not be direct worship but a reverence of nature or object as part of religious ritual. I have not even make mention of the traditional stoning of the devil in Kaaba as if a symbolic devil is present in Kaaba. Yes, the Hindus has many deities one of which is the black stone similar to that of Islam.



You are very funny. You are talking like a shi'a expecting the apocalyptic 'Mahdi'. You have not understanding of Christian eschatology.


The Saudis and the Iranians are simply following the sunnah of the prophet as contained in the hadith and the seerah. It is not a rocket science. On the Jews and Christians failure to enforce the law of stoning for adultery, read the account of Jesus and the adulterous woman; you get a hint of what I am talking about.


See hint directly above.

true2god:
You are muddling things up, like a Jehovah's witness, to validate the obvious errors in quran 9:30. Quran 9:30 said and I quote: 'the Jews said Ezra is the son of Allah' and not 'some Jews said Ezra is the son of Allah'. Look at the the definite article 'the' which indicated that, according to Mohammed, it is a mainstream belief held by the Jews, of which Mohammed/quran got it wrong.

On the issue of the golden calf you chipped in, the children of Israel had no Torah or the talmud or any organized religious belief, immediately they left Egypt. The laws and the prophet (I am not referring to the patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac or Jacob) were not in the picture yet. The golden calf is not a belief system and no doctrine was set up to support this evil. It was an idol set up by the children of Israel (I didn't use the word JEWS for obvious reason) for worship in the absence of their leader Moses. This apostasy by the children of Israel in the wilderness is never regarded as an established belief but a form of idolatory and they were eventually punished by God for this despicable act. So the comparison you attempted to make here in order to validate quran 9:30 does not make sense here. And let's even say, for the sake of argument, that children of Israel worshiped the golden calf before but they no longer do it, because it was a documented fact recorded both in the Torah and the Talmud, where was it recorded that the Jews believed that 'Ezra is the son of God'?

Shirk, according to Islamm, is associating patner with Allah and many ayah in the quran reads: 'Allah and his messenger'. There is a special relationship between Allah and his messenger that one wonders if Mohammed is not Allah himself. This scenario played out so much that Aisha, one of the prophet's wives, told Mohammed: 'it seems your Lord always hasten to satisfy your desires'(sahih Bukhari 6:60:311). Even in your shahada (sahih bukhari 4:52:196) there is always 'Allah and his messenger' before your allegiance to Islam can be valid. In your daily prayer, you must also mention Mohammed numerous times or else your prayer will not be valid. If this is not shirk I wonder what it is. And as I said earlier, Muslims seem to have reverence for Mohammed more than Allah himself.

This is a standard Islamic claim without evidence. If you claim a document has been distorted it is for you to present the original copy which no Muslim could provide. If I claim that the 100 naira bill in your pocket is fake I will surely provide an original copy to compare with the fake, this is how commonsense works. To the Jews and the Christians, the quran is an outright lies and fabrications by Mohammed and his sahabas

You are always changing the goal post. You said at no where did quran talked about Trinity (three) then I presented quran 4:171 to you and you are shifting without clearing up my question. According to quran 4:171, the trinity is the father, the son and Mary and the quran got it 100% wrong because no Christian believe in such thing. If Mohammed got quran 9:30 and quran 4:171 wrong, with respect to the established Jewish and christian theology, how can we trust the quran?

I kiss my wife and peg my daughter on the cheek almost everyday that does not mean I worship them; I only show my love and admiration for them. I do not kiss them out of religious beliefs or because my 'propeht' kissed his wives. If I however kiss a stone, as part of my religios rite anytime I go for hajj in mecca, that's idolatry. Idolatrous practices might not be direct worship but a reverence of nature or object as part of religious ritual. I have not even make mention of the traditional stoning of the devil in Kaaba as if a symbolic devil is present in Kaaba. Yes, the Hindus has many deities one of which is the black stone similar to that of Islam.

The Saudis and the Iranians are simply following the sunnah of the prophet as contained in the hadith and the seerah. It is not a rocket science. On the Jews and Christians failure to enforce the law of stoning for adultery, read the account of Jesus and the adulterous woman; you get a hint of what I am talking about.


See hint directly above.

Sahih Muslim » The Book of Faith:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr:

Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah.

Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right.

Qur'an 35:29:
Those who recite the Book of God and establish salat and spend out of what We have provided them, secretly and openly, hope for a gain that will never perish.

Qur'an 2:174:
Those who spend their wealth by night or day, secretly and openly, their reward is with God.

62:9, 11:
O ye who believe! When the call is heard for the prayer of the day of congregation, haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave your trading. That is better for you if ye did but know.

But when they spy some merchandise or pastime they break away to it and leave thee standing. Say: That which Allah hath is better than pastime and than merchandise, and Allah is the Best of providers.

Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of the Times (of Prayer):

"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: This is 'Jibril, peace be upon you, he came to teach you your religion. He prayed Subh when the dawn appeared, and he prayed Zuhr when the sun had (passed its zenith), and he prayed 'Asr when he saw that the shadow of a thing was equal to its height, then he prayed Maghrib when the sub had set and it is permissible for the fasting person to eat. Then he prayed 'Isha' when the twilight had disappeared.

Then he came to him the following day and prayed Subh when it had got a little lighter, then he prayed Zuhr when the shadow of a thing was equal to its height, then he prayed 'Asr when the shadow of a thing was equal to twice its height, then he prayed Maghrib at the same time as before, then he prayed 'Isha' when a short period of the night had passed.

Then he said: 'The prayer is between the times when you prayed yesterday and the times when you prayed today.'"