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Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity - Islam for Muslims (4) - Nairaland

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Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 2:01pm On Jan 23, 2019
Empiree:
this is nonesense you know. You can try harder next time to excuse Vatican. Quran clearly says that he(saw) married WOMEN which indicate there was no child amongst his wives.
Aisha was a child of 6yrs when rasool Allah engaged him and consummated the marriage when she was 9 yrs old. A girl of 9 is not a woman, not even matured enough to be called a teenager. The Vatican was/is open in condemning/dismissing any priest who engaged in pedophilia, can/will Muslims condemn their prophet for doing the same?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 2:59pm On Jan 23, 2019
true2god:
Aisha was a child of 6yrs when rasool Allah engaged him and consummated the marriage when she was 9 yrs old. A girl of 9 is not a woman, not even matured enough to be called a teenager. The Vatican was/is open in condemning/dismissing any priest who engaged in pedophilia, can/will Muslims condemn their prophet for doing the same?
You still have no valid excuse. As I said before, it was common practice those days and was not limited to Arabs to marry young women. If you want muslims to condemn their Prophet for this, then you need to go back to history really quick and tell us if at any point in Islamic history he was condenmed for marrying 6yrs old Aisha(ra).

Prophet muhammad's(saw) worst enemies did not even complain or condemn him for marrying "a child". They could have easily used this against him to embarrass and dent his image. But none of his enemies did that. Not even the worst of them all, Abu Lahab whom a verse of Qur'an was dedicated to in the worst possible manner.

So if his archenemies did not use this against him it means they seen nothing wrong with it or it was common norm then or Aisha was old enough for marriage. Therefore, it is unsuitable for a 21 century mentality to condemn what was actually norm in 6 century.

We can speak the same of unclothedness. It used to be seen as local, uneducated and uncivilized. But today, unclothedness is synonymous to civilization.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 3:16pm On Jan 23, 2019
Empiree:
You still have no valid excuse. As I said before, it was common practice those days and was not limited to Arabs to marry young women. If you want muslims to condemn their Prophet for this, then you need to go back to history really quick and tell us if at any point in Islamic history he was condenmed for marrying 6yrs old Aisha(ra).

Prophet muhammad's(saw) worst enemies did not even complain or condemn him for marrying "a child". They could have easily used this against him to embarrass and dent his image. But none of his enemies did that. Not even the worst of them all, Abu Lahab whom a verse of Qur'an was dedicated to in the worst possible manner.

So if his archenemies did not use this against him it means they seen nothing wrong with it or it was common norm then or Aisha was old enough for marriage. Therefore, it is unsuitable for a 21 century mentality to condemn what was actually norm in 6 century.

We can speak the same of unclothedness. It used to be seen as local, uneducated and uncivilized. But today, unclothedness is synonymous to civilization.
Empiree:
this is nonesense you know. You can try harder next time to excuse Vatican. Quran clearly says that he(saw) married WOMEN which indicate there was no child amongst his wives.
This is your claim.
true2god:
Aisha was a child of 6yrs when rasool Allah engaged him and consummated the marriage when she was 9 yrs old. A girl of 9 is not a woman, not even matured enough to be called a teenager. The Vatican was/is open in condemning/dismissing any priest who engaged in pedophilia, can/will Muslims condemn their prophet for doing the same?
This is my response.
You made claim that all the prophet's wives were 'WOMEN' and I told you that a 6 yr old can never be put into that category. The hadith, in many instances, said Aisha was still a kid when mohammed engaged her.
It is equally disingenous to claim that nothing wrong with marrying a prebuscent girls in medivial era because the society permitted it as a norm but I can tell you that no civilization encouraged such. You can provide a reference to back up your claim.

If mohammed was the last and the greatest prophet, he should have known better than his peers that marrying an under-age girl is immoral. According to some hadith narrations, it was claimed that mohammed stopped female infaticide, why didnt he stop child marriage as well. In today's saudi arabia, can you tell me the age limit for marriage since we are no longer living in the medivial era?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 3:52pm On Jan 23, 2019
true2god:
This is your claim.
This is my response.
You made claim that all the prophet's wives were 'WOMEN' and I told you that a 6 yr old can never be put into that category. The hadith, in many instances, said Aisha was still a kid when mohammed engaged her.
It is equally disingenous to claim that nothing wrong with marrying a prebuscent girls in medivial era because the society permitted it as a norm but I can tell you that no civilization encouraged such. You can provide a reference to back up your claim.
Exactly. Hadith compilation was not monitored by Devine Will like Quran nor did prophet (saw) himself witnessed the compilation of Hadith Therefore, a word(hadith) passed down by many people was prone to err. Your only argument you want to hold on to is that "Hadith said so" but in reality, no enemies, friends, sahaba of the prophet (saw) etc critisized the prophet if truly no civilization encouraged such. Their would have been overwhelming criticisms of him but there is none. This is a wake up call for you.




If mohammed was the last and the greatest prophet, he should have known better than his peers that marrying an under-age girl is immoral. According to some hadith narrations, it was claimed that mohammed stopped female infaticide, why didnt he stop child marriage as well. In today's saudi arabia, can you tell me the age limit for marriage since we are no longer living in the medivial era?
it might be a good idea you ask them yourself.

Even if a girl married in Nigeria at age of 15 you people would still say something just because she's muslim while you ignore the same 15yrs old in the West who marries or sleeps around. My take personally is that the Hadith is defected. It was not word of the prophet himself but word put in Aisha's mouth. We can not independently verify authenticity of it.

Again, one thing is clear, nobody in the time of the prophet rebuked him for marrying Aisha. This speaks volume. It means Aisha was either not 6 or she was 6 and it was common norm. I have given you example of nake.dness. They used to arrest half nak.ed women in America in 19 century. Gay used to be taken clinic for psychological evaluation in the 60s because they seen these things as abnormal. But today, it is called civilization and it is normal. So why only picked on underage marriage?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 5:28pm On Jan 23, 2019
true2god:
Criticism of Islam is termed blasphemy by all the 5 schools of Islamic jurisprudence. The so-called radical muslims are simply following core Islamic teachings, or the sunnah.

The bolded will surely lead to an early grave for anyone who say such thing in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, etc. If I say such thing in the US, Canada and Europe, I cant go scot-free, because Muslims are in the minority.

While I appreciate your attempt at moderating the reactions of Muslims with regards to criticism of religion, do not spread a wrong information concerning an issue like this.

Yeah, I know. Please read the warnings and disclaimers at the beginning of this thread - https://www.nairaland.com/4789914/quran-human-rights-freedom-equity#72197618

I never claimed to speak on behalf of any Islamic school or sect. I speak on authority of the Qur'anic verses I've cited; 13:32, 4:140, 9:65-66, 33:48, 15:94-97.

Lastly, I'm not attempting to moderate reactions of Muslims. This thread is dedicated only to Muslims who appreciate human rights and freedom but are unsure if the Qur'an support them.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:48am On Mar 23, 2019
Freedom Of Belief and Expression

Qur'anic verses abound supporting the rights of;

(a) Non-Muslims to reject Islam unconditionally
(b) Muslims to reject apostatize unconditionally.
(c) Muslims to disregard Islamic laws.

Next, I'll cite these verses and afterwards expose how corrupt and fanatic Muslims infringe on these three basic rights.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:48am On Mar 23, 2019
Right of Non-Muslims to reject Islam & Muslims to apostatize from Islam unconditionally

2:256 & 18:29
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way.

Say, "The truth is from your Lord, whoever desires may acknowledge, and whoever desires may reject.

If a single verse that support Freedom of Belief and Expression is wanted, either of these verses suffice. They accept apostasy by Muslims, reject forced conversion explicitly, but on closer inspection seem opposed to the Hisba or Dhimmi system which are basically covert means of repressing freedom of belief and expression in traditional Islam.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:49am On Mar 23, 2019
Right of Muslims or Anyone to Disregard Islamic laws

68:44 & 26:216
So leave me Me and whoever denies this message. We'll lead them from where not they know.

This verse sure proves even Muslims have the individual right to disobey Islamic laws if they want. Because if Muslims opt to disobey any Qur'anic stipulation, then they deny Qur'an indirectly. And as shown in this verse, such persons who deny Qur'an are to be left to God. Not bothered in any way by any man.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:49am On Mar 23, 2019
If there is room for an authority to ensure Muslims abide by Islamic rules on salat, zakat, pork or alcohol etc, Qur'an would have instructed Muhammad on strict measures against Muslims who do not abide. Yet here is what the Qur'an instruct him to do with such Muslims.

26:215-217
And lower your wing for any who follow you of the believers. But, if they disobey you, say: "I am innocent from what you do." And put trust in the All mighty, Most merciful
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:50am On Mar 23, 2019
5:99
The only duty of the messenger is to deliver. God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.

24:54
Say: "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if you turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:51am On Mar 23, 2019
42:48
But if they turn away, then We did not send you as their guardian. You are only required to deliver.

88:21-22
So remind, only you are a reminder. You are not over them a controller/supervisor.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 8:53am On Mar 23, 2019
The role of Muhammad is repeatedly limited to delivering Qur'an. As evident, these verses absolves Muhammad of other obligations like enforcing "sharia" as fanatic Muslims seek. If even the messenger, the first Head of the first Muslim State didn't have the authority to enforce, then no Muslim have such authority.

NB: These verses and their apparent support for freedom of belief and expression are overlooked and unappreciated in the traditional Muslim theology because they are considered as abrogated. Thus explaining why several traditional Islamic principles and laws oppose these verses.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 11:35am On Mar 23, 2019
usermane:
Right of Non-Muslims to reject Islam & Muslims to apostatize from Islam unconditionally

2:256 & 18:29


If a single verse that support Freedom of Belief and Expression is wanted, either of these verses suffice. They accept apostasy by Muslims, reject forced conversion explicitly, but on closer inspection seem opposed to the Hisba or Dhimmi system which are basically covert means of repressing freedom of belief and expression in traditional Islam.
It will be fair for you to understand the context surah albaqra 256. This is not a general rule for religious freedom in Islam according to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir on this ayah (quran 2:256). And again surah 9 (the last surah of the quran) of the quran abrogated all the previous surah (according to Ibn Kathir). So if you want to make a final decision on this matter, surah 9 will give you a better guide and nowhere did surah 9 advocated for religious freedom.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 12:50pm On Mar 23, 2019
true2god:
It will be fair for you to understand the context surah albaqra 256. This is not a general rule for religious freedom in Islam according to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir on this ayah (quran 2:256). And again surah 9 (the last surah of the quran) of the quran abrogated all the previous surah (according to Ibn Kathir). So if you want to make a final decision on this matter, surah 9 will give you a better guide and nowhere did surah 9 advocated for religious freedom.

You made a good argument. Verses like 9:5 & 9:29, 5:33 comes to mind here. But although my out look on Qur'an is not the same as when I started this thread, my purpose here is still the same. I want this as a love letter to liberal Muslims who identify as Muslims but are out there fighting for UHRFE in Muslim countries. And so for this one thread, I'll let aside Abrogation.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 4:12pm On Mar 23, 2019
true2god:
It will be fair for you to understand the context surah albaqra 256. This is not a general rule for religious freedom in Islam according to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir on this ayah (quran 2:256). And again surah 9 (the last surah of the quran) of the quran abrogated all the previous surah (according to Ibn Kathir). So if you want to make a final decision on this matter, surah 9 will give you a better guide and nowhere did surah 9 advocated for religious freedom.
No abrogations in the Quran. If there is any it is simply their opinion.

And op himself is a confused fellow. Due to his confusion is the reason he can't seem to figure out verse you brought up and baqara 256. Hence he has to let it slide for now. And I know he doesn't believe in their of abrogation which is correct by the way.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 9:17pm On Mar 23, 2019
usermane:


You made a good argument. Verses like 9:5 & 9:29, 5:33 comes to mind here. But although my out look on Qur'an is not the same as when I started this thread, my purpose here is still the same. I want this as a love letter to liberal Muslims who identify as Muslims but are out there fighting for UHRFE in Muslim countries. And so for this one thread, I'll let aside Abrogation.
Fundamentalist Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, understand Islam and give 100% support for apostasy laws. No room for apostasy and apostates in these 2 countries. While attempt by people like you in sanitising Islam is fully appreciated, it nevertheless goes against all the 5 Islamic schools of taught with respect to religious freedom. Since the commands of Allah are universal and eternal, you cannot separate the commands in the Quran from Allah himself. To summarize my point, there is no religious freedom in Muslim-dominated countries while Muslims are free to practice their religion in any part of the globe.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 9:24pm On Mar 23, 2019
Empiree:
No abrogations in the Quran. If there is any it is simply their opinion.

And op himself is a confused fellow. Due to his confusion is the reason he can't seem to figure out verse you brought up and baqara 256. Hence he has to let it slide for now. And I know he doesn't believe in their of abrogation which is correct by the way.

The most famous tafsir written by Imam Ibn Kathir argued that surah 9 abrogated previous revelations. As far as I know, you have no scholarship in Islamic theology and you don't understand Islam more than either Ibn Kathir or Jelalyn (he also wrote tafsir or exegesis of the Quran). You are free to disagree, but they argued that both the abrogated ayahs and the new ayahs are all in the Quran. While I do disagree with 'username' in many argument he makes concerning religion, he has no issue looking at issues from both sides of a coin.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 3:02am On Mar 24, 2019
true2god:
The most famous tafsir written by Imam Ibn Kathir argued that surah 9 abrogated previous revelations. As far as I know, you have no scholarship in Islamic theology and you don't understand Islam more than either Ibn Kathir or Jelalyn (he also wrote tafsir or exegesis of the Quran). You are free to disagree, but they argued that both the abrogated ayahs and the new ayahs are all in the Quran. While I do disagree with 'username' in many argument he makes concerning religion, he has no issue looking at issues from both sides of a coin.
sorry, bro. There are over 1000 Quran exegesis. Sheikh Adam Al-ilory (ra) said, "there are 1000 tafsir of Quran. What you know of tafsir of Quran depends on efforts you put in. Money you spend on seeking knowledge of tafsir, exploration and understanding etc

I agree that I am not scholar but I must remind you that there are scholars of Islam who supported my position.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 8:38am On Mar 24, 2019
Empiree:
sorry, bro. There are over 1000 Quran exegesis. Sheikh Adam Al-ilory (ra) said, "there are 1000 tafsir of Quran. What you know of tafsir of Quran depends on efforts you put in. Money you spend on seeking knowledge of tafsir, exploration and understanding etc

I agree that I am not scholar but I must remind you that there are scholars of Islam who supported my position.
Then, based on your submission, interpretations of the Quran is subjective based on what you understand an 'ayah' to mean. It also means that 1000 Islamic scholars can hold different opinions concerning a certain revelation in the Quran. If that's the case, don't blame denominational Christians who also hold divergent views of their scriptures.

Also, Allah said his words are VERY clear (in the Quran) but from what I can see, it is either human beings get Allah's words wrong or Allah did not clarify most of his words, especially his latter revelations.

Besides, Sheiks Adam Al-ilori is a Yoruba scholar (don't meant to diminish his scholarship in Islamic theology) while both Ibn Kathir and Jelalyn are Arab Muslims who wrote their tafsir (when there was no computer and printing machines) hundreds of years ago and painstakingly ensured that they presented the interpretations as honest and clear and possible. You cannot diminish their contributions because Ibn Kathir's work is used by over 90% of Sunni and shia Muslims worldwide. The authority his work has is unparalleled among other tafsirs of the Quran.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 11:57am On Mar 24, 2019
true2god:
Then, based on your submission, interpretations of the Quran is subjective based on what you understand an 'ayah' to mean. It also means that 1000 Islamic scholars can hold different opinions concerning a certain revelation in the Quran. If that's the case, don't blame denominational Christians who also hold divergent views of their scriptures.

Also, Allah said his words are VERY clear (in the Quran) but from what I can see, it is either human beings get Allah's words wrong or Allah did not clarify most of his words, especially his latter revelations.
Quran in Arabic is one. Different tafsir (explanation of Qur'an) like issue of understanding. For instance, if Quran says "and when he was going down the hill he kicks the bucket". "The Ayah" doesn't change in the Qur'an but different mufasir may understand it differently. There is nothing wrong with this. And I never blamed christian denominations for this. What we accused them of is not different understanding but changes or distortions of texts which ultimately led them to greater misunderstandings. And reason Quran tafsir can not be the same is clear from Quran itself. Quran says we can not do things or understand things the same way. The issue here is that some tafsir may be closer to the truth than others. There are many things in tafsir in Kathir that are very close to facts and there are some that fall short. That's why Muslims explore. The more you see the more you know. But this differences have nothing to do with obligatory practices. There is no difference of opinion amongst Quran exegesis.



Besides, Sheiks Adam Al-ilori is a Yoruba scholar (don't meant to diminish his scholarship in Islamic theology) while both Ibn Kathir and Jelalyn are Arab Muslims who wrote their tafsir (when there was no computer and printing machines) hundreds of years ago and painstakingly ensured that they presented the interpretations as honest and clear and possible. You cannot diminish their contributions because Ibn Kathir's work is used by over 90% of Sunni and shia Muslims worldwide. The authority his work has is unparalleled among other tafsirs of the Quran.
no one undermines works of any muffasir. We commend all of them. And being Arab is not a proof of better understanding either. There are nonarab muslims who understand Islam more than Arabic speaking people. In the days of sheikh Adam (ra) technology was not as it is today either. They could work on just one hadith for 3 months those days. So again, there are no abrogations in the Qur'an. But some muslims may be here now and disagree with me. That's exactly what I am saying that we can not understand things same way bcus they read abrogations in the Qur'an and concluded that some verses must have been cancelled. This is simply wrong methodology

It is God who revealed tawrah, injil, zabur, Quran. When Quran was revealed and it is talking about abrogations, it is simply telling us that God abrogated some verses of previous scriptures given to previous prophets.


Examples:


1. Rajam(stoning). Stoning adulterers is in the Torah and Bible till this moment. But when prophet muhammad (saw) came, he applied their Law on the Jews before verse of flogging in the Qur'an was revealed saying that the new law for adultery is now flogging which automatically abrogates the old.



2. Qibla (prayer direction). Before prophet Muhammad (saw) came, Jews used to face Jerusalem. After prophet muhammad came, he too faced same direction with them. But after it was clear that Jews have rejected his messange and also decided to kill him, God ordered him and his companions to turn away from Jerusalem and turn toward Mecca. This is in seerat and in surah baqarah



Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. 2:144
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by najib632(m): 8:34pm On Mar 24, 2019
true2god:
Aisha was a child of 6yrs when rasool Allah engaged him and consummated the marriage when she was 9 yrs old. A girl of 9 is not a woman, not even matured enough to be called a teenager. The Vatican was/is open in condemning/dismissing any priest who engaged in pedophilia, can/will Muslims condemn their prophet for doing the same?
This shows you're a stupid person. How do you expect 1400 years to be the same as these normal times?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by usermane(m): 4:29am On Mar 25, 2019
najib632:
This shows you're a stupid person. How do you expect 1400 years to be the same as these normal times?

You're faith blind. What makes pedophilia not OK in 2019 if it is OK in 623?
Time to dump this argument because Muslims scholars of today have no issue with pedophilia. Khomeini lowered age of girl marriage to 9 in Iran after coming to power. In many rural pockets of Muslimdom, child brides continue partly under influence of Islam.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 7:04am On Mar 25, 2019
najib632:
This shows you're a stupid person. How do you expect 1400 years to be the same as these normal times?
Sleeping with a 9yr old girl is OK 1400 yrs ago but bad now. Can you see how religion has made you irrational and unreasonable?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by najib632(m): 9:22am On Mar 25, 2019
true2god:
Sleeping with a 9yr old girl is OK 1400 yrs ago but bad now. Can you see how religion has made you irrational and unreasonable?
Irrational? You're funny. Yes it was normal back then but now it's not. Some who expects 1400 yrs ago to be the same as now calling me irrational. Did she R.A. ever complain about the marriage? Then why are you now complaining about it for her, did she R.A. send you? By Allah if you know the amount of knowledge Muslims got because of her young age and wisdom you'll not even speak. Thos is some one who claims to have studied Islam for five years, you're funny.
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by najib632(m): 9:38am On Mar 25, 2019
usermane:


You're faith blind. What makes pedophilia not OK in 2019 if it is OK in 623?
Time to dump this argument because Muslims scholars of today have no issue with pedophilia. Khomeini lowered age of girl marriage to 9 in Iran after coming to power. In many rural pockets of Muslimdom, child brides continue partly under influence of Islam.
That's your business, as long as the man is not by far older than her, she doesn't protest and not someone that will maltreat her as that's the Islamic requirements, then it's none of my business. May Allah bless the marriage, this is one of the cards you modernists are playing to spread fornication amongst the youths. By Allah I am not ashamed of Islam and never will I be. Provide a solution for adultery and fornication if not early marriage... or wait a munite you modernists are ok with it(adultery and fornication).
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 2:01pm On Mar 25, 2019
Empiree:
Quran in Arabic is one. Different tafsir (explanation of Qur'an) like issue of understanding. For instance, if Quran says "and when he was going down the hill he kicks the bucket". "The Ayah" doesn't change in the Qur'an but different mufasir may understand it differently. There is nothing wrong with this. And I never blamed christian denominations for this. What we accused them of is not different understanding but changes or distortions of texts which ultimately led them to greater misunderstandings. And reason Quran tafsir can not be the same is clear from Quran itself. Quran says we can not do things or understand things the same way. The issue here is that some tafsir may be closer to the truth than others. There are many things in tafsir in Kathir that are very close to facts and there are some that fall short. That's why Muslims explore. The more you see the more you know. But this differences have nothing to do with obligatory practices. There is no difference of opinion amongst Quran exegesis.
It is a fact that translating any work from one language to the other has it unique challenge as some basic information could be lost but that does not nullify the fact that the information translated can still be 99.8% correct. The margin of error (0.02% or less) is always negligible and this issue is not only associated with the quran. The Torah was written in Hebrew while the Injil was written in Greek but have been widely translated into English language since English language is currently the most widely used language worldwide. Rendering the Torah and the Injil in English language does not affect the message in the original scriptures. Giving the quran a protective status because of the possible flaws associated with translation does not make sense. Besides, people like Yusuf Ali and Picktail has a great scholarship in Arabic language and their translations are believed to be as accurate as possible. If your position is that their translations were rather interpretation/explanation that do not convey, in absoluteness, the messages of the quran, that's a big lie bro.

Empiree:
no one undermines works of any muffasir. We commend all of them. And being Arab is not a proof of better understanding either. There are nonarab muslims who understand Islam more than Arabic speaking people. In the days of sheikh Adam (ra) technology was not as it is today either. They could work on just one hadith for 3 months those days. So again, there are no abrogations in the Qur'an. But some muslims may be here now and disagree with me. That's exactly what I am saying that we can not understand things same way bcus they read abrogations in the Qur'an and concluded that some verses must have been cancelled. This is simply wrong methodology
Being an Arab, to an extent, gives one an advantage in the knowledge of Islam than non-Arabs. Islam, aside from being a religion, is an identity, a culture and a social system to a typical Arab person. So, the commitment and knowledge a typical Arab-man (or even a Pakistani) will have on the religion cannot be overemphasized. An non-Arab must be 300% more committed to the religion than a typical arab man to be at par. On the issue of abrogation, from your argument, it is clear that there is no consensus on the subject matter. And I would like you mention any tafsir written by any scholar that claimed that the abrogated verses are in the Torah and the Injil. I have mentioned Ibn Kathir and Jelalyn, i would like you give your reference as well.

Empiree:
It is God who revealed tawrah, injil, zabur, Quran. When Quran was revealed and it is talking about abrogations, it is simply telling us that God abrogated some verses of previous scriptures given to previous prophets.
This is a subjective opinion and almost all the 5 schools of Islamic school of taught will disagree with you. And again, the quran confirmed the previous scriptures and did not in any place repudiate it. Allah even asked muslim to consult previous revelation from the people of the book for guidance. Allah will not ask Muslims to consult a book that some of it contents has been abrogated. You can as well mention the abrogated verses in the Injil and Torah, and their replaced ayah in the quran.

Empiree:
Rajam(stoning). Stoning adulterers is in the Torah and Bible till this moment. But when prophet muhammad (saw) came, he applied their Law on the Jews before verse of flogging in the Qur'an was revealed saying that the new law for adultery is now flogging which automatically abrogates the old.
According to Sunnah Ibn Majjah, the verse of stoning was revealed but Aisha claimed that he he-goat ate it while they were preparing for the burial of the prophet. If the hadith of Ibn Majjah is authenticate as regards this narration, it can be concluded that the compilers of the quran left out this very important detail.

Empiree:
Qibla (prayer direction). Before prophet Muhammad (saw) came, Jews used to face Jerusalem. After prophet muhammad came, he too faced same direction with them. But after it was clear that Jews have rejected his messange and also decided to kill him, God ordered him and his companions to turn away from Jerusalem and turn toward Mecca. This is in seerat and in surah baqarah

Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. 2:144
The change in the direction of prayer is as a result of the disagreement the Jews had with Mohammed. Mohammed, to the jews, did not the pass the test of prophethood and besides did not come from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which all the patriarchs came from. Mohammed violated the prophetic bloodline hence was rejected by the Jews. The rejection led Mohammed to change the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to mecca. It is noteworthy that at no time had idolatry and paganism taken over Jerusalem while mecca was a place that harbors over 360 Arabian idols before the Islamic revolution of Mohammed. Why will God change the direction from a holy land to a place that formerly hosted over 360 different idols, among which is the current black stone in kabba?
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 3:24pm On Mar 25, 2019
najib632:
Irrational? You're funny. Yes it was normal back then but now it's not. Some who expects 1400 yrs ago to be the same as now calling me irrational. Did she R.A. ever complain about the marriage? Then why are you now complaining about it for her, did she R.A. send you? By Allah if you know the amount of knowledge Muslims got because of her young age and wisdom you'll not even speak. Thos is some one who claims to have studied Islam for five years, you're funny.
The bolded is an inflation of your ego to make yourself feel good. Muslims learn nothing from Aisha except what she allegedley narrated in the hadith, most of which can not even be authenticated, while others are rumors, Chinese whispers and gossips (all in the hadith)
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 4:28pm On Mar 25, 2019
true2god:
It is a fact that translating any work from one language to the other has it unique challenge as some basic information could be lost but that does not nullify the fact that the information translated can still be 99.8% correct. The margin of error (0.02% or less) is always negligible and this issue is not only associated with the quran. The Torah was written in Hebrew while the Injil was written in Greek but have been widely translated into English language since English language is currently the most widely used language worldwide. Rendering the Torah and the Injil in English language does not affect the message in the original scriptures. Giving the quran a protective status because of the possible flaws associated with translation does not make sense. Besides, people like Yusuf Ali and Picktail has a great scholarship in Arabic language and their translations are believed to be as accurate as possible. If your position is that their translations were rather interpretation/explanation that do not convey, in absoluteness, the messages of the quran, that's a big lie bro.
I do not argue that English or other translations do not capture the Arabic meaning of Quran. That was not my argument. Ofcourse other languages capture intended meaning in most cases. Otherwise we would not understand anything. My argument was that Quran can not be translated in the sense that God's word can not be translated and I have used few examples in the past I used Ahad, that common meaning is One. This captures the intended meaning but it can have consequences too bcuz (1) One in this sense is numeric. But Ahad Quran is talking about is limitless in the sense that nothing before and nothing after Him. It is this attribute that Christianity has given to Jesus.



Being an Arab, to an extent, gives one an advantage in the knowledge of Islam than non-Arabs. Islam, aside from being a religion, is an identity, a culture and a social system to a typical Arab person. So, the commitment and knowledge a typical Arab-man (or even a Pakistani) will have on the religion cannot be overemphasized. An non-Arab must be 300% more committed to the religion than a typical arab man to be at par. On the issue of abrogation, from your argument.
Yes, it gives them advantage of lugha but not understanding of quran itself. You can be speaking English fluently but if Wole Soyinka writes English you may never understand it. The language of the Qur’an cannot be appreciated without touching upon the linguistic gems which adorn the Qur’an, this has been part of the course from its beginning and is one of the most rewarding elements of learning the language to students.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gave us a simple formula to be the best: “The best amongst you is the one who learns the Qur’an and teaches it.” (Al-Bukhari) So go ahead, learn and teach the Qur’an, and make yourself among the best of Muslims Insha Allah.




This is a subjective opinion and almost all the 5 schools of Islamic school of taught will disagree with you. And again, the quran confirmed the previous scriptures and did not in any place repudiate it. Allah even asked muslim to consult previous revelation from the people of the book for guidance. Allah will not ask Muslims to consult a book that some of it contents has been abrogated. You can as well mention the abrogated verses in the Injil and Torah, and their replaced ayah in the quran.
as educated as you are, I no longer expect you to even bring this up. We talked extensively on this subject years ago. Quran is not asking us to seek guidance from you with respect to religion. The Ayah in question was speaking about specific incident that took place before Nabi Muhammad (saw). Let me give you example. It is like you ask your dad for some historical incident related to his own dad (your grandpa). After your dad narrated the incident to you, he tells you go to go his dad (grandpa) to confirm the story (to be true). If Quran is asking us to ask people of the book for guidance, first, people of the book are basically of TWO TYPES (JEWS & CHRISTIANS). I ask you which of the two Qur'an wants Muslims to seek guidance from?. If it is Jews, do you believe in l what they believe?. If you don't, then it means you have no business with the Ayah.

Hence, you see Jews as misguided. If on the other hand quran is talking about Christians, Jews as well see you as misguided because you violated first commandment of faith that Jesus is God. Jews don't believe this. Therefore, Quran could not be telling muslims to seek guidance from either of you since Quran sees both groups on dolal (astray).




According to Sunnah Ibn Majjah, the verse of stoning was revealed but Aisha claimed that he he-goat ate it while they were preparing for the burial of the prophet. If the hadith of Ibn Majjah is authenticate as regards this narration, it can be concluded that the compilers of the quran left out this very important detail.
Sorry, bro. I know you and fellow CHRISTIANs love using this to tackle this issue. Whoever believes this nonsense amongst the Muslims need brain check. Quran sits in judgment over Hadith and it made no mention of goat eating revelation. This is one of the many discrepancies in the Hadith we have been talking about. They in clear contradiction with Quran. If there was any revelation left out, the only one that had the right to tell us was the prophet himself. Not his wife or any companions. And I am sure this was fabricated on her name.

By the clear Book, Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind]. (Quran 44:1-3)




The change in the direction of prayer is as a result of the disagreement the Jews had with Mohammed. Mohammed, to the jews, did not the pass the test of prophethood and besides did not come from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which all the patriarchs came from. Mohammed violated the prophetic bloodline hence was rejected by the Jews. The rejection led Mohammed to change the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to mecca. It is noteworthy that at no time had idolatry and paganism taken over Jerusalem while mecca was a place that harbors over 360 Arabian idols before the Islamic revolution of Mohammed. Why will God change the direction from a holy land to a place that formerly hosted over 360 different idols, among which is the current black stone in kabba?
what nonsense?

You sure you read seerah carefully at all?. Prophet Muhammad (saw) clearly passed test of prophethood. All the questions posed to him were answered. Have you not read the story of Jewish rabbi, Abdullah ibn Salam who became Muslim after these questions?. Have you forgotten questions they asked him?. Have you forgotten what this rabbi said to the prophet about Jews after knowing the truth?.

You also said because he was not from lineage of Abraham (as). Really?. Did you say this from their perspective or from yours?. I can excuse you if you said it from their perspective because that's exactly why they rejected him but not on the basis of his test of prophethood. They did not even reject him on the basis of Abraham but of Isaac lineage. They knew he's of Abraham progeny
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 5:06pm On Mar 25, 2019
true2god:
And I would like you mention any tafsir written by any scholar that claimed that the abrogated verses are in the Torah and the Injil. I have mentioned Ibn Kathir and Jelalyn, i would like you give your reference as well.
As for this, it is very simply. I need not to bring scholars but more than scholars. I am sure you know that sahaba were close to the prophet than Ibn kathir and other mufassir. Therefore read this.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them(Jews and christians) about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”.



You can also read this statement of ibn 'Abbas from sahih al-Bukhari:


"Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"



Quran backs up those ahadith (surah 29:51)

"And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe."


Tafsir of the ayah above was narrated by Abu Huraira(ra)


The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to the Muslims). "Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.'



Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7362
In-book reference : Book 96, Hadith 89
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 92, Hadith 460



However, these ahadith do not forbid or are not saying muslims should not use Bible and torah to lecture Jews and christian (debate). Thats not what them mean. They simply mean Torah and Gospels are not Books of guidance for muslims. From this, it is clear the ayah you used that muslims should seek guidance from you was talking about specific incident as i said. So these ahadith are proofs of abrogation in Tawrah and Injil
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by najib632(m): 8:27pm On Mar 25, 2019
true2god:
The bolded is an inflation of your ego to make yourself feel good. Muslims learn nothing from Aisha except what she allegedley narrated in the hadith, most of which can not even be authenticated, while others are rumors, Chinese whispers and gossips (all in the hadith)
Hahahahaha, anyone who claims that should provide his academic evidence for this, mind you even the Shi'a have failed woefully, so go and join the path of losers. False2god
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by Empiree: 12:58am On Mar 26, 2019
Lol "False2god". I'm learning something cheesy
Re: Qur'an: Human Rights, Freedom & Equity by true2god: 10:12am On Mar 26, 2019
Empiree:
I do not argue that English or other translations do not capture the Arabic meaning of Quran. That was not my argument. Ofcourse other languages capture intended meaning in most cases. Otherwise we would not understand anything. My argument was that Quran can not be translated in the sense that God's word can not be translated and I have used few examples in the past I used Ahad, that common meaning is One. This captures the intended meaning but it can have consequences too bcuz (1) One in this sense is numeric. But Ahad Quran is talking about is limitless in the sense that nothing before and nothing after Him. It is this attribute that Christianity has given to Jesus.
You cannot use an isolated word, out of thousands of words in the quran, to make a general statement and draw a conclusion. Lets not over-flog the issue of translation, from my own conclusion, there is no book that can not be translated with 99.9% textual accuracy. We might disagree but scholars who are specialist and consultants in international linguistics will disagree with you.

Empiree:
Yes, it gives them advantage of lugha but not understanding of quran itself. You can be speaking English fluently but if Wole Soyinka writes English you may never understand it. The language of the Qur’an cannot be appreciated without touching upon the linguistic gems which adorn the Qur’an, this has been part of the course from its beginning and is one of the most rewarding elements of learning the language to students.
Arabs have advantage because of the fact that Islam is interwoven with Arabian culture and tradition hence their better apprciation of the religion. Wole Soyinka, though have attained mastery in English language in terms of ability to communicate with the language, he is not a cultural English man. His lifestyle and social behavior still expressed his yorubaness. So making an unrelated comparison between a cultural Arab man who view Islam as his social and religious identity, and Prof Wole Soyinka who only mastered the art of speaking a foreign language while he retains his aboriginal culture, is wrong. All I see you do is an attempt to elevate a foreign language as a result of the attachment you have with the religion associated with the language.

Empiree:
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gave us a simple formula to be the best: “The best amongst you is the one who learns the Qur’an and teaches it.” (Al-Bukhari) So go ahead, learn and teach the Qur’an, and make yourself among the best of Muslims Insha Allah.
I am learning Islam, not to be a muslim, but to point out the limitations in the religion which, to me, is fair enough. Islam/Muslims are also doing the same to/on other religions.

Empiree:
as educated as you are, I no longer expect you to even bring this up. We talked extensively on this subject years ago. Quran is not asking us to seek guidance from you with respect to religion. The Ayah in question was speaking about specific incident that took place before Nabi Muhammad (saw). Let me give you example. It is like you ask your dad for some historical incident related to his own dad (your grandpa). After your dad narrated the incident to you, he tells you go to go his dad (grandpa) to confirm the story (to be true). If Quran is asking us to ask people of the book for guidance, first, people of the book are basically of TWO TYPES (JEWS & CHRISTIANS). I ask you which of the two Qur'an wants Muslims to seek guidance from?. If it is Jews, do you believe in l what they believe?. If you don't, then it means you have no business with the Ayah.
At time I dont what to believe in Islam, the quran, mohammed or the sahabas. If the quran asked us not to drink or gamble I am very sure you wont bring us various hadith to explain this to me but anytime a possible islamic-critical verse is found in the quran, muslims start searching the seerah and the hadith to expain away the simple instruction from Allah. This is hypocrisy and a high level intellectual dishonesty on the part of my muslim friends. It is a general rule in islam that anywhere the hadith negates the quran, that hadith narration must be rejected as unauthentic, why the double standard?

Empiree:
Hence, you see Jews as misguided. If on the other hand quran is talking about Christians, Jews as well see you as misguided because you violated first commandment of faith that Jesus is God. Jews don't believe this. Therefore, Quran could not be telling muslims to seek guidance from either of you since Quran sees both groups on dolal (astray).
This is a subjective opinion. Just as the Muslims believed that the Jews have incurred the wrath of Allah and the Christians have gone astray (surah al-fathia 6-7), the same way the Jews and the Christians view Islam as idolatry because of some paganism in Islam such as kissing the black stone, running around the kabba, etc.

Empiree:
Sorry, bro. I know you and fellow CHRISTIANs love using this to tackle this issue. Whoever believes this nonsense amongst the Muslims need brain check. Quran sits in judgment over Hadith and it made no mention of goat eating revelation. This is one of the many discrepancies in the Hadith we have been talking about. They in clear contradiction with Quran. If there was any revelation left out, the only one that had the right to tell us was the prophet himself. Not his wife or any companions. And I am sure this was fabricated on her name.
Ibn Majjah is neither a jew nor a christian and besides his hadith is also graded as sahih. Why are denying any hadith narration that seems to be an embarrassment to islam?


Empiree:
By the clear Book, Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind]. (Quran 44:1-3)
Allah's opinion.


Empiree:
You sure you read seerah carefully at all?. Prophet Muhammad (saw) clearly passed test of prophethood. All the questions posed to him were answered. Have you not read the story of Jewish rabbi, Abdullah ibn Salam who became Muslim after these questions?. Have you forgotten questions they asked him?. Have you forgotten what this rabbi said to the prophet about Jews after knowing the truth?.
One misguided rabbi cannot be the face of the believing Jew, the same way you will argue that a Muslim convert to Christianity is a fake Muslim. I was expecting you to validate Mohammed's prophethood using the Torah and the Injil.

Empiree:
You also said because he was not from lineage of Abraham (as). Really?. Did you say this from their perspective or from yours?. I can excuse you if you said it from their perspective because that's exactly why they rejected him but not on the basis of his test of prophethood. They did not even reject him on the basis of Abraham but of Isaac lineage. They knew he's of Abraham progeny
Maybe you didn't read my response well. All prophets are from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the quran confirmed that to the Jews are given the gift of prophethood. In the injil, it was also confirmed that salvation belongs to the Jews. I heard someone say Abraham was an Arab, do you also hold this view?

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