ricadelide:

@ KAG,
i had two posts; i don't think you read the prior post, perhaps it would answer some of your questions.

By gum, you're right. I don't know how I missed it. I'll get on it now.

I'd like to apologise before hand for breaking your post into parts - I've found that it's the easiest way to address the contents of posts.

@KAG,
Ok, I know where you are coming from. And i can see where your grouses mainly lie and i'd try to focus on them to the best of my ability to explain issues.
I wont really answer directly word for word what you wrote because it'd just drag endlessly. Rather i'd try to answer the issues behind what you wrote.

No problem, but I'm sure you'd understand if I mention that I am, naturally, wary of a response to my post that, rather than answering my actual questions, responds to what another thinks are issues behind my words. That is not to say, though, that it wouldn't address my points.

Let me explain the issues i percieve you have grouses with.
First, God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.
I'd try to paint a picture of God for you, and correct the image (distorted as it is) that you have of Him.

If my image is distorted, I have only the spokepersons (both the books and the human agents) of God to blame.

As regards God's omniscience, try to see it as God being aware of what will happen before it does, while as regards his omnipotence, see it as it his; all-powerful - but understand it in this context; he has set boundaries for himself.
the first boundary is the fact that he has 'given' the earth to man. Ps. 115;16 "The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men" Also Gen 1;26-30, Gen. 2:15
the other boundary is that he gave man a free will.

The first (omniscience) is what I understand the word to mean; the latter isn't. I will, however, accept your definition of that attribute of God. By the way, I don't think that verses actually support the view that the omnipotent Christian God has set boundaries for himself: the verses neither say that nor allude to that fact.

Now getting into more detail the issue of choice. God created beings with free wills. humans have free wills, angelic beings have free wills. God has his own will as well. see each person's will as a sphere of influence. every person's will can be absolute to himself and cannot be encroached upon. however you could have the two spheres coming in contact when a person chooses God or chooses satan such that God's will becomes the person's will or Satan's will becomes the person's will as the case may be. Now, here on earth spirits cannot encroach on a man's free will, but fellow men can. that is why an evil human being is of more threat to me than an evil spirit - because he is man, and can encroach on my will or sphere of influence (but that's something i don't want to get into now)

By any definition of freewill, it is untrue, in my opinion, that every person's will is absolute to their selves and cannot be enroached upon. It is the sign of human hubris to suppose that a person is somehow above the influences of his or her society, zeitgeist, the state of the mind and condition of the brain, and many other factors.

God cannot encroach in earthly affairs without a man's permission. That might seem absurd but it's the truth.

I think it is absurd because the Bible - particularly the Old Testament - says otherwise.

That is why we pray. We pray so that we can allow God to 'encroach' in our affairs by His might. The same principle applies in witchcraft; some people pray to the devil and give him a gateway in their lives so he can operate.

Most Witches don't pray to the devil.

However the down side is that having a choice does not exempt from consequences. No. the fact that you can choose what you want, inherently places a responsibility on you. and confers almost by definition, the need to act responsibly and choose good. You can easily understand this from human societies and human liberties, whilst we are free and can choose what we want, when we choose to do wrong, we face the consequences.

I understand; however, you have to understand that good is relative and that many will, as a matter of principle, choose other Gods and philosophies that aren't the Christian one, because those are the ones that they "know" are good. It is - as I've attested over and over again - not just nor is it love to condemn them to eternal torment for sincerely held and honestly chosen ideoligies.

When God made man, He made him innocent, naive and placed choices before man. God put man on earth and effectively handed it over to him as man's domain. You say since God is all-powerful, why didn't he make him choose good? or since he is all-knowing, why did He make man since He knew man would fall? However what you should remember is that we are made in the image of God, each man is a world unto himself and can autonomously determine his sphere not being encroached. For God to be fair, he had to make man, and he had to make him have the ability to choose irrespective of the outcome (ie rejection). Do you think GOd was happy that man didn't choose him, of course not. that was why it greived his loving heart when man rejected Him.

I think my question or what I was hinting towards wasn't any of those; it was something more along the lines of since Christians assert God is omniscient and omnipotent she knew and created the conditions necessary for the disobedience in Genesis. Also, God wouldn't have had to "enroach on the freewill" of the humans in Eden for them to have chosen good, anymore than the presence of a parent enroaches the freewill of a doubtful child. In fact, all God would have had to do was to show up before or during the serpents conversation with Eve (that, or not even put the tree there). No, to be logically consistent we have to accept that the outcome had to have been part of the plan.

God is not some angry avenger out to 'get' everyone who disobeys Him.

Not since the Old Testament, that is.

No. he is a God who is interested in fellowshipping with his creation. and the decison to choose wrong affected God just as much, if not more, than it affected man.

I don't see how and I don't see anything that shows that to be so.

For a choice to be that, a choice, God's omnipotence and omniscience cannot be involved; those are God's attributes not man's. He wanted and expected the man to choose life (the tree of life) but man did not.

An omniscient God could not possibly be expecting something that is known wouldn't happen. Unless, of course, there's some kind of delusion at play.

(and we can indeed say he could not). However, where God's omnipotence and omniscience plays in is when he provides a remedy for the fall. Ordinarily, in a level playing field of justice, man is, or should be, condemned for disobeying. but God in His foreknowledge had provided a way out. And that way out was ultimately played out years later in the death and ressurection of Christ. How you would know that God could not influence man's outcome because 'his hands were tied' (by man's free will) is when you understand that at one point, GOd 'regretted that he had made man'.

So now the other thing is; fine, there is punishment, but why does it have to be 'eternal'? human beings are spirits pocessing a soul and living in a body. spirits are by nature eternal, they don't die. SO if there has to be a punishment for a spirit, it has to be an eternal punishment.

Now, let's assume that human beings are indeed spirits possessing a soul and that the spirit is eternal, it still doesn't follow that the punishment for an eternal being has to be eternal. There is no absolutely no reason to logically assume or conclude that an eternal being has to be in the same state of grace or punishment for eternity. Furthermore, Christian theology has taught us, in its teachings on Lucifer and his cohorts, and other spiritual matters, that it is not the case that an eternal being remains in the same state infinitely.

A man has a long time (the space of a lifetime) to avert the eternal consequences of wrong actions and within that time frame, GOd forgives, and he forgives, and he forgives (i'm talking from both knowledge and experience). I have known His love and mercy and He does forgive, but like i said i'll say again, his forgiveness is within a time frame; and that time frame is a man's life. Once that life leaves the body, a man must face judgement.

First, for most of the human species, time has been rather short. Second, many who have indeed atoned for wrong actions will still be condemned to an eternal torture. Finally, I have understood that you do believe that humans only have the relatively short life span to choose the Christian doctrine, but I still don't see why it is that way. If human life is just one very, very limited aspect of our being, then one would have to wonder why an omniscient, omnipotent God who some have claimed is omni-benevolent would create conditions that ensure the better part of most of his beloved creatures' being is spent getting tortured with no chance for mercy due to sincere remorse.

So what i'd advise is, rather than focus on the potential for punishment and the possibilty of being lost, why not focus on the plus side and see that, there is really no reason for any body to be lost.

Because I haven't seen the plus side and the whole is necessary for an honest choice.

we know the real reason why people reject God and his provision (i don't really want to get into it now).

I know that there are many reasons people reject both the Christian God and the Christian doctrine, not just a reason.

what i usually tell people "if you know what i know, you'd be in the same position i am".

Then it may become necessary for yiy share adequately what and how you know what you know.

God is indeed love,

I still haven't seen any reason to accept that as true.

but there are many things we have to seek understanding for, and i understand your concerns. My goal is to answer as many questions as i can when the objective is knowledge and not mere arguements.

I have to go home; i'd answer the other issues when i get home.

No problem. Once again, thanks for taking the time.

keep posting up sh^t , judegement day is close, keep fronting