afrodoc2:
Another thing I want to state here. I have been telling my friends for months now that this Barca team is inferior to Pep's Barca team.

Nihilist:

I agree 110%

That is because they no longer have the Pep factor, they no longer dominate possession like they used to, they no longer place a strangle hold on opposition like they used to

Give this Barca to Pep today and people would change mouth that its the greatest ever

raumdeuter:


Messi was a talent, It was Pep who pushed him to the limit where he is now. There is a huge difference between Messi scoring double digit goals and assists and the Messi scoring over 60goals a season under Pep. a 5ft7 player

Only Mourinho fanboys doubt Pep. If people doubt Pep, City wont suspend their coach to get him, Bayern wont go out of their way to get him and offer him extensions. If people doubt him, he wont be the most sought after coach on the planet

Pep's future was uncertain and every managers job immediately became at risk. Wenger had to speak up that him declaring himself available made everyone panic because he is that good

After Pep Barca has gotten 3 of the best 5 strikers in the world and have a trio that can be tagged the best in history yet they are out of the CL, tied on points with 3 games to go but if Pep had handled them and they are almost in the CL final and coasting to the league you would say anyone can do it

Those strikers are currently the defending champions of UCL.

No team has been able to successfully defend the cup, including Pep's Barca, so the fact that barca are out now is a null point.

The undeniable fact is that Pep's crowning achievement of the treble was replicated by a manager who had never won anything in his managerial career before, and at first attempt too.

So a man who couldn't buy a win before came to Barca and started winning

A man who was winning everything before left Barca and now can't buy a win.

I'm sure you can see the glaring obvious

So let's start again...what has Pep actually done?

afrodoc2:
Having a team regarded as one of the greatest of all time does not automatically mean the manager to is on the list of greatest.
I mean who were the managers of the great Real team that won 5 straight European cups, who managed the great Bayern side of the 70s etc.
I am not saying Pep is not good/great but great team does not equate to great coach......it is mainly about the players
Even the great Arrigo Sacchi found failure everywhere in club football after his Milan stint cos he never again worked with players of the quality of Baresi, Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard.
IT IS EASIER FOR A MANAGER TO APPEAR GREAT WHEN HE IS COACHING GREAT PLAYERS

Having great players doesnt equate to having a great team. That is why Moyes failed with the same players Fergie won with 12months earlier

If Barca had got another manager in 2008 instead of Pep, no one would be talking about a great Barcelona side

Or are you trying to say a manager doesnt matter its the quality of players that do? I would think a Man Utd fan and EPl fan would have learnt better given where Man utd with their stars are currently.

Those stats are slightly misleading. We give Pep the credit for moving Messi inside from his RWF position but let us not forget that
MESSI BEFORE PEP WAS FROM AGE 17 TO 21 YEARS OF AGE.....practically every footballer's statistics and performance improves greatly as they get into their 20s

Nihilist:
Those strikers are currently the defending champions of UCL.
No team has been able to successfully defend the cup, including Pep's Barca, so the fact that barca are out now is a null point.
The undeniable fact is that Pep's crowning achievement of the treble was replicated by a manager who had never won anything in his managerial career before, and at first attempt too.
So a man who couldn't buy a win before came to Barca and started winning
A man who was winning everything before left Barca and now can't buy a win.
I'm sure you can see the glaring obvious
So let's start again...what has Pep actully done?

Pep already laid the foundation which was what is key to Barcelona winning again. He made Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets into what they are today

And after him Barcelona went trophyless and are out by the quarters 2 times in 4 yrs. In Pep's 4yrs they never went trophyless never mind crashing out before a semi

afrodoc2:
Those stats are slightly misleading. We give Pep the credit for moving Messi inside from his RWF position but let us not forget that
MESSI BEFORE PEP WAS FROM AGE 17 TO 21 YEARS OF AGE.....practically every footballer's statistics and performance improves greatly as they get into their 20s

We can also see that Messis stats have dropped from Pep years and he is 28 currently.

Before Pe he was under 21, Pep 21-25, After Pep 25-28

25 to 28 is a typical strikers peak BTW

raumdeuter:


Having great players doesnt equate to having a great team. That is why Moyes failed with the same players Fergie won with 12months earlier

If Barca had got another manager in 2008 instead of Pep, no one would be talking about a great Barcelona side

Or are you trying to say a manager doesnt matter its the quality of players that do? I would think a Man Utd fan and EPl fan would have learnt better given where Man utd with their stars are currently.

Quality of players first then managers second.

That is why Arrigo sacchi with those great Milan players won the serie A title and back to back European cups but when those greats left he led Milan to 11th in the league,lead Atletico Madrid to 13th and was sacked by Parma for rubbishy results

That is why Capello in his first Milan stint was winning serie a titles and playing back to back to back Champs league finals but in his second stint with Ibrahim Ba and other immensely "otu" players could only finish 10th in the same league

raumdeuter:


Pep already laid the foundation which was what is key to Barcelona winning again. He made Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets into what they are today

And after him Barcelona went trophyless and are out by the quarters 2 times in 4 yrs. In Pep's 4yrs they never went trophyless never mind crashing out before a semi

Messi was the 2nd best player in the world before Pep.
If you're the second best in the world at 21, why is it not logical to think that Messi would have eventually still become the beast that he is right now regardless of manager?

How come Pep has yet been unable to mould another Messi?

Dayo, if Bayern fail to make the CL finals again, are you saying a Bayern fan doesn't have the right to be dissapointed at the "highly-rated" Pep, considering the tactical/selection flaws (albeit arguable) that could be associated with the team's exit at the hands of Real Madrid (and potentially against Athletico)?

raumdeuter:


We can also see that Messis stats have dropped from Pep years and he is 28 currently.

Before Pe he was under 21, Pep 21-25, After Pep 25-28

25 to 28 is a typical strikers peak BTW

Xavi is not in the midfield anymore, Iniesta is in his 30s, Messi lost a lil bit of his energy and form, Messi has been moved to the right side of attack. Those stats have dropped but only slightly .
But all these are not really important. I have commended Pep on moving Messi inwards and of course he helped the team achieve its potential but he was playing with a loaded deck with that amount of talent

Nihilist:

Those strikers are currently the defending champions of UCL.
No team has been able to successfully defend the cup, including Pep's Barca, so the fact that barca are out now is a null point.
The undeniable fact is that Pep's crowning achievement of the treble was replicated by a manager who had never won anything in his managerial career before, and at first attempt too.
So a man who couldn't buy a win before came to Barca and started winning
A man who was winning everything before left Barca and now can't buy a win.
I'm sure you can see the glaring obvious
So let's start again...what has Pep actually done?

1. That no team has been able to successfully defend the UCL is not an Alibi for Barca not getting to the semis with the talent at their disposal.

2. Pep's crowing achievement was actually the SEXTUPLE, something Lucho hasn't been able to do with a better squad.

3. And because LVG will win an FA Cup does not mean that all the while Fergie was winning it, Fergie wasn't brilliant.

The point is Enrique is a very good coach but Pep is a genius.

Nihilist:
Messi was the 2nd best player in the world before Pep.
If you're the second best in the world at 21, why is it not logical to think that Messi would have eventually still become the beast that he is right now regardless of manager?
How come Pep has yet been unable to mould another Messi?

Messi was the second best player in the world it means nothing. He was nowhere close to who he became later. Its like saying Owen was once the best player in Europe(by winning Balon D or)

His stats have quadrupled under Pep. It has never been seen in the history where a striker scored 50 goals 60 goals 70 goals a seasoWho why would it be logical to think a 5ft7 winger who was scoring 16 goals a season would suddenly eat something and start scoring 73goals a season where supremely talented people of the past 40yrs havent been able to do?

Talents like Messi dont come everyday. You need to have the talent first before it can be moulded. Both have to be together. talent without grooming would lead to a Quaresma, Grooming without talent would lead to a Walcott

Dayo if next season Pep went to manage Hannover 96 and Hannover's manager Stendel was to coach Bayern who do you think would finish higher?

Nihilist:


Messi was the 2nd best player in the world before Pep.
If you're the second best in the world at 21, why is it not logical to think that Messi would have eventually still become the beast that he is right now regardless of manager?

How come Pep has yet been unable to mould another Messi?

Messi was going to be like every other Argentine player with hype and talent. David Beckham had once finished top 3 in Ballon d'or before, he didn't go on to win any. Micheal Owen didn't win 4 more others.

Messi was a raw talent, but nobody raised him to the level of the football pantheon until he came across Pep.

Developing another Messi is not the only variable that should judge Pep's genius. Even players like Mandzukic that didn't like his style still enjoyed his most prolific era under Pep. Lewa, great as he has been has 46 goals in all competitions for club and country, he hadn't done this before Pep. Müller is being raised into the top players in the world. His most prolific season is still under Pep's management.

afrodoc2:


Xavi is not in the midfield anymore, Iniesta is in his 30s, Messi lost a lil bit of his energy and form, Messi has been moved to the right side of attack. Those stats have dropped but only slightly .
But all these are not really important. I have commended Pep on moving Messi inwards and of course he helped the team achieve its potential but he was playing with a loaded deck with that amount of talent

For 2 of those 4 seasons Xavi was still in midfield, For 2 of those 4 seasons Iniesta was still in his twenties, for two of those 4 seasons Messi still played his favoured position in the middle

Pep made those talents what they became, Without Pep most of those talents would have been wasted. Busquets wouldnt be played because he wasnt physical enough, Xavi was actually on his way out of Barca before pep and Messi would have been a great winger who scores 20 plus goals per season

Dadehmola:
Dayo, if Bayern fail to make the CL finals again, are you saying a Bayern fan doesn't have the right to be dissapointed at the "highly-rated" Pep, considering the tactical/selection flaws (albeit arguable) that could be associated with the team's exit at the hands of Real Madrid (and potentially against Athletico)?

It will definitely be a disappointment, but that's because his high achievements in the past will be juxtaposed with his achievements at Bayern.

Losing to RM was scandalous but you cannot have it both ways. Bayern wanted to DOMINATE first and win, they were only able to do one. With Madrid, you had the tactics and personnel that were capable of neuralizing Pep's system and they did with their defensive-counter attacking style with pacy wingers and the ultimate athlete in CR7.

People tend to forget that 3 goals in the 4-0 loss came from set-pieces.

Dadehmola:
Dayo, if Bayern fail to make the CL finals again, are you saying a Bayern fan doesn't have the right to be dissapointed at the "highly-rated" Pep, considering the tactical/selection flaws (albeit arguable) that could be associated with the team's exit at the hands of Real Madrid (and potentially against Athletico)?

Every fan whose team doesnt win have a right to be disappointed, Are you not disappointed that we are counting semi finalists and Man utd isnt there?

The only game Pep really messed up was the 4-0 vs Madrid every other game he has been fairly okay given the condition of the two sides on the day

Atletico almost impregnated Carlo with losses after losses one ended 4-0(Where Saul Niquez scored a bicylcle kick), They just eliminated Barcelona 2 times in 3 yrs, they beat Chelsea more than enough last 3 meetings has been 7-2 aggregates in favor of Atletico.

So which results have been a Bayern underperforming?

Eruditor:


Messi was going to be like every other Argentine player with hype and talent. David Beckham had once finished top 3 in Ballon d'or before, he didn't go on to win any. Micheal Owen didn't win 4 more others.

Messi was a raw talent, but nobody raised him to the level of the football pantheon until he came across Pep.

Developing another Messi is not the only variable that should judge Pep's genius. Even players like Mandzukic that didn't like his style still enjoyed his most prolific era under Pep. Lewa, great as he has been has 46 goals in all competitions for club and country, he hadn't done this before Pep. Müller is being raised into the top players in the world. His prolific season is still under Pep's management.

Every other Argentine with hype and talent? Like Di Stefano, Kempes,Redondo and Maradona?
Let's not forget Ronaldo to is scoring goals at an alarming rate. There are several reasons why those 2 became so prolific and no 1 is their talent.......but their several other factors too

afrodoc2:
Dayo if next season Pep went to manage Hannover 96 and Hannover's manager Stendel was to coach Bayern who do you think would finish higher?

Most likely Bayern would finish higher because the difference in talent between Bayern and Hannover cant be outweighed by the difference if there exists any between Pep and Stendel

A coach cant win alone, he needs players and players are the most important thing

Its like talking about a driver and a car, Can Schumaker drive a Peugeot 404 to beat me when I am driving a Ferrari? So can we say driving skills doesnt matter or is overrated?

Exactly like in driving the quality of the car is the most important just like the players before the driver/coach

raumdeuter:


For 2 of those 4 seasons Xavi was still in midfield, For 2 of those 4 seasons Iniesta was still in his twenties, for two of those 4 seasons Messi still played his favoured position in the middle

Pep made those talents what they became, Without Pep most of those talents would have been wasted. Busquets wouldnt be played because he wasnt physical enough, Xavi was actually on his way out of Barca before pep and Messi would have been a great winger who scores 20 plus goals per season

Xavi was finished especially by that last season. When Pep replicates his performance elsewhere I will give him full props

I see u sidestepped the issue of players vs coaches and how arrigo Sacchi and Capello fumbled when they had lesser talent.

Eruditor:


1. That no team has not been able to successfully defend the UCL is not an Alibi for Barca not getting to the semis with the talent at their disposal.

2. Pep's crowing achievement was actually the SEXTUPLE, something Lucho hasn't been able to do with a better squad.

3. And because LVG will win an FA Cup does not mean that all the while Fergie was winning it, Fergie wasn't brilliant.

The point is Enrique is a very good coach but Pep is a genius.

Please don't dumb this discussion down by focusing on minor points/semantics

The only logical inference we can draw your post is that the difference between Genius and Good CoachesCoaches is the the Super Cup, which in itself is a rather stuppid thing to imply

The entire point of this discussion is to show that Pep's success has been more or less replicated 3 successive managers without a previous history of winning.


If a dead coach, a coach lacking experience, and a donkey can all record successes with the same team at first attempt, then where is the proof that Pep is special?

Especially when he can't seem to replacate his success outside Barca?

Jose won UCL with Porto, went to Inter and won it again. After he left neither of those teams have won it again.

Pep won UCL with Barca. After he left, he can't win it again. Yet Barca continues to win UCL in Pep's absence.

So what's special about Pep?

afrodoc2:


Every other Argentine with hype and talent? Like Di Stefano, Kempes,Redondo and Maradona?
Let's not forget Ronaldo to is scoring goals at an alarming rate. There are several reasons why those 2 became so prolific and no 1 is their talent.......but their several other factors too

With the speed of typing some ideas will be dropped on the way. I was referring to the likes of Riquelme, Pablo Aimar, Carlos Tevez, Ariel Ortega, Aguero, Di Alessandro etc and any other argetine player dubbed the new Maradona.

raumdeuter:


Most likely Bayern would finish higher because the difference in talent between Bayern and Hannover cant be outweighed by the difference if there exists any between Pep and Stendel

A coach cant win alone, he needs players and players are the most important thing

Its like talking about a driver and a car, Can Schumaker drive a Peugeot 404 to beat me when I am driving a Ferrari? So can we say driving skills doesnt matter or is overrated?

Exactly like in driving the quality of the car is the most important just like the players before the driver/coach

Exactly what I was saying and you were arguing
Player quality is more important and more crucial to success than manager quality

afrodoc2:

Exactly what I was saying and you were arguing
Player quality is more important and more crucial to success than manager quality

Thats not what you are saying.

You are saying a coach doesn't matter and Barcelona would have dominated regardless, I am saying without the coach that Barcelona team wont be what they are today. Player quality can be there and wont achieve anything without a coach. Else why did Moyes end trophyless with the same fergie team

Just like a BMW vs a Mercedes would be determined by who is the better driver

Eruditor:


With the speed of typing some ideas will be dropped on the way. I was referring to the likes of Riquelme, Pablo Aimar, Carlos Tevez, Ariel Ortega, Aguero, Di Alessandro etc and any other argetine player dubbed the new Maradona.

And in immortal words of the departed Coogar " did u see this in your water filled calabash"
We will never know, same way nobody knew for sure that Ronaldo would be the one to blow out of all the new Figos that Portugal was producing.

Nihilist:
But what has Pep really done sef?

Like we've seen after he left, any donkey off the street can replicate his success at Barcelona.

The tiki-taka philosophy is instilled from an early age at la-masia, and most of the members of that team are la-masia including pep himself...

OK so he kept Xavi, moved Messi inside, promoted Busquets..but an argument could be made that being a la masia insider, he was more intimately acquainted with the original Barca/Cruyff philosophy than say LVG and Rijkaard, and thus in a better position to identify la masia graduates that would fit the philosophy.

With the array of world class talent at his disposal at Barca, should we even be lauding his 'achievements'? I mean Messi is clearly a freak of nature...

At Bayern, Pep once again has access to the best players in the world, but is competing in a one horse league. Can we genuinely expect anything less than domestic clean sweeps from Bayern with that squad? especially with their tendencies to cannibalise their closest competition

Why does pep keep failing in Europe when he faces competition that is either at par or slightly superior to his squad?

Is Pep really that much of a genius at all?

Compare to Jose who has won UCL TWICE in thr capacity of an underdog.

Oya Barca boys - sebod dmcdad homesteady fall in. BAYERN boys, you too.

In the 06/07 season, Barca finished 2nd on the log, crashed out of the UCL in the round of 16 with Ronaldinho being the highest goal scorer with 24 goals. Barca finished 3rd on the log in the following year, got knocked out of UCL with Henry as the highest goal scorer with 19 goals.

Pep took over in 07/08 season as a young untested coach. He declared the brains behind the team( Dinho, Deco and Eto) surplus to requirements to the chagrin of many. Dinho and Deco departed while Eto stayed, many players were also sold to accommodate the new ones.
Xavi had almost signed for Milan, Pep talked him to staying. Pique, who was sparingly used at United was bought back, Busquest was promoted, Iniesta was handed a full role by the departure of Dinho,Deco, Edmilson and Mota.
Pep assembled his team, made an inexperience Busquest his fulcrum, committed the midfield to Xavi and Iniesta and reshuffled them upfront.
Many queried his decisions, but asked to be judged at the end of the season. He played the best kind of football, the team became the talking point in the world of football, he had no other way of playing beside playing beautifully.
He got to the UCL finals where many thought his team(affected with injury) would be destroyed by Man U that had a super star in CR7. He showed the world how footie should be played and won the great sir Alex team. He went on to win the treble (the 1st in the history of La Liga), later won the sextuple ( a feat that has never been achieved). His team became the benchmark and every coach started thinking of how to stop him.
He won his 2nd UCL in 3 years and became the most sought after coach in the world.
Call him over rated, but I will say he packaged himself so greatly that even the so called great coaches are envious of him.
It's so easy now to allude every success the team has made from from 2008 to the brilliance of the team(even though majority of the players are termed average) and claim anybody can coach Barca, but trust me, without the work Pep did on the team, the team would have won some trophies but definitely not in the way and manner at which they have won and nobody today would be talking about the team that defined an era.
What has Pep done? He took over a team that was not winning, transformed the team and won everything there is in the world of football albeit with style and grandeur.
As regards Mou winning same UCL with smaller teams, yes, he won 2 UCL, but we all know whose team is the envy of all coaches, players, fans and even rivals. We know whose team gave many coaches headache on how to face, we all know whose team every other club wanted to avoid then.

Nihilist:

Please don't dumb this discussion down by focusing on minor points/semantics

The only logical inference we can draw your post is that the difference between Genius and Good CoachesCoaches is the the Super Cup, which in itself is a rather stuppid thing to imply

The entire point of this discussion is to show that Pep's success has been more or less replicated 3 successive managers without a previous history of winning.


If a dead coach, a coach lacking experience, and a donkey can all record successes with the same team at first attempt, then where is the proof that Pep is special?

Especially when he can't seem to replacate his success outside Barca?

Jose won UCL with Porto, went to Inter and won it again. After he left neither of those teams have won it again.

Pep won UCL with Barca. After he left, he can't win it again. Yet Barca continues to win UCL in Pep's absence.

So what's special about Pep?

Jose went to Madrid couldnt win, after he left they won

Jose went to Chelsea couldnt even make a final after he left they made a final

raumdeuter:


Thats not what you are saying.

You are saying a coach doesn't matter and Barcelona would have dominated regardless, I am saying without the coach that Barcelona team wont be what they are today. Player quality can be there and wont achieve anything without a coach. Else why did Moyes end trophyless with the same fergie team

Just like a BMW vs a Mercedes would be determined by who is the better driver

I mentioned Sacchi, Fergie and Hitzfeldt ..... I think u r mixing my posts with nihilists posts.
My point has been that a good to great coach and not necessarily a genius would have done same or better.

raumdeuter:


Thats not what you are saying.

You are saying a coach doesn't matter and Barcelona would have dominated regardless, I am saying without the coach that Barcelona team wont be what they are today. Player quality can be there and wont achieve anything without a coach. Else why did Moyes end trophyless with the same fergie team

Just like a BMW vs a Mercedes would be determined by who is the better driver

Why did Capello and Sacchi and Luis Enrique struggle without stars ?

afrodoc2:


Exactly what I was saying and you were arguing
Player quality is more important and more crucial to success than manager quality

Bingo!

Tito Vilanova was in and out of hospital and was away for athe least 6 weeks and still won the league. Tata Martino was allegedly handpicked by Messi.

When the players are the ones picking the Manager, we have to ask if the manager is even needed at all, especially when Said manager is being feted as a tactical genius

Sebod thank you, you have spoken well.

I think I already countered all those points though...

afrodoc2:
I mentioned Sacchi, Fergie and Hitzfeldt ..... I think u r mixing my posts with nihilists posts.
My point has been that a good to great coach and not necessarily a genius would have done same or better.

My point is it takes a genius to devise a play pattern that is so dominant that people talk about it for ages.

Pep's Barca is the standard for all football teams

Inter won the CL, no one except Inter fans remember anything about them and how they play, Chelsea won I am sure no one wants to play like they did to win.

If a BMW Audi Mercedes are in a race what would determine the winner? The quality of the driver I presume

Going into the 2009 season, No one would rate barca as top seed to win most likely they might not even be top 5. vs Fergie's Man Utd they wouldnt be overwhelming favourites to win and its not like Fergie is a chump coaching Hannover either