AdisaOwala:

A40 even said a great player can be overrated.....all in a bid to defend a logic that's clearly outta sorts.
His initial response was even the funniest - the fact that Kaka contributed Zilch to Brazil's 2002 WC triumph shock am die...as he see say show no dey for that side, he kukuma decide say the Brazillian dey overhyped....all in a bid to Support his logic by force
Kaka at his prime...overrated?
E dey get some Kain Arguments wey person no suppose enter - this Kaka own na typical example.

Oga, the English involved is not that involved to understand. You see what I did there? I used involved twice in different contexts and both hold up perfectly in English.

The synopsis of it all is, a great player can be rated far greater than he is supposed to be hence, the term OVERrated. If an award is introduced termed "greatest striker ever" and people are asked to vote but somehow Aguero wins the poll. We can safely say that award overrates him. In other words, we may accept that Aguero in his prime has been nothing short of lethal, but for any one to stretch it that far into naming him the greatest striker of all time will be overdoing it.

Conclusively, if we are to critically examine Kaka as a player from when he was adjudged best player in the world to when he petered out, it will appear that the WPOTY 2007 that he won perhaps overrated him.

Eruditor:


Oga, the English involved is not that involved to understand. You see what I did there? I used involved twice in different contexts and both hold up perfectly in English.

The synopsis of it all is, a great player can be rated far greater than he is supposed to be hence, the term OVERrated. If an award is introduced termed "greatest striker ever" and people are asked to vote but somehow Aguero wins the poll. We can safely say that award overrates him. In other words, we may accept that Aguero in his prime has been nothing short of lethal, but for any one to stretch it that far into naming him the greatest striker of all time will be overdoing it.

Last time I checked, nobody implied that Kaka is the greatest attacking Midfielder of all time so I really don't get this your "Apples vs Oranges" comparison.

Which poll would even rate Aguero as the Greatest Striker ever liveth?

Maybe you should relax, take a deep breath & follow the Convo from the beginning...

Eruditor:

Conclusively, if we are to critically examine Kaka as a player from when he was adjudged best player in the world to when he petered out, it will appear that the WPOTY 2007 that he won perhaps overrated him.

Oga - 'Overated' in this context means he probably didn't deserve to win a WPOTY award or that he wasn't one of the best players in the world for the 3-4 years wey him take reign......an assertion that's clearly false!

As for his decline, it was hardly his fault...

He might have struggled in his debut season at Madrid but the injury(8months) he copped at the begining of his 2nd season literarily ended his career !

There was no way a 28 year old was gonna return to blistering form & fitness after such a lengthy layoff so I really don't get what you are on about.

AdisaOwala:


Last time I checked, nobody implied that Kaka is the greatest attacking Midfielder of all time so I really don't get this your "Apples vs Oranges" comparison.

Maybe you should relax, take a deep breath & follow the Convo from the beginning



Oga - 'Overated' in this context means he didn't deserve to win a WPOTY award or that he wasn't one of the best players in the world for the 3-4 years wey him take reign......an assertion that's clearly false!

As for his decline, it was hardly his fault...

He might have struggled in his debut season at Madrid but the injury he copped at the begining of his 2nd season (8months) literarily ended his career !

There was no way a 28 year old was gonna to return to blistering form & Fitness after such a lengthy injury-layoff so I really don't get what you are on about.

You even get time bros. The way people jump into convos to start chatting rubbish is alarming. You should read what one of em up barka boiz spewed earlier,all dayo, with no substance.

My belle they turn me for here...

TRendlona:



Aguero doesn't have any Champions league to his name, he was no where to be found in Argentina's road to the WC final and Copa America final. He has only showed up for Man City and maybe Atletico Madrid. Even Higuain try pass am for national level.


Kaka was a great player but he lacked longevity. I can't say he's overrated but he isn't even in the class of Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Delima and co not to talk of Pele, Maradona and Messi.


Lampard was a great midfielder in his time there's no doubt about that. He won the Champions league, Europa cup, Premiership, FA cup etc but didn't show up at international level. He couldn't even make it to any semi final nor even third place.


Boateng has shown up in every aspect both club level and international level. He has won the World cup, Champions league, DFB pokal, Super cup etc He didn't just win it but he made great contributions to the victory. IMO, Boateng isn't an overrated defender. He showed up when it mattered . I'm still vexed at the way he and his co defenders stopped Messi during the WC final. The tin still dey pain me cos if not them, Messi would have had a WC to his name.

When it comes to Kaka, you start placing him side-by-side with other greats of the game, if we compare Boateng to Baresi, Beckanbeaur, Puyol, Maldini, Nesta etc he would look below average and you'd likely get beat for such foolish comparison.

airmark:


He is a joke. I have noticed you always use it for a40, is it because it is ajakaja ?

My English teacher 'thought' me, we should always use "it" for an animal.

Ajakaja40 aka 'Excel guguru' is an irascible animal.

patrickmuf:
When it comes to Kaka, you start placing him side-by-side with other greats of the game, if we compare Boateng to Baresi, Beckanbeaur, Puyol, Maldini, Nesta etc he would look below average and you'd likely get beat for such foolish comparison.

While the originators of this line of logic or thinking are finding it tough to defend ,you have one 'up barka fan' wanting to do it for them....

diggz:



While the originators of this line of logic or thinking are finding it tough to defend ,you have one 'up barka fan' wanting to do it for them....

Seriously, a size-able number of Barcelona fans are emotional and childish...So because the main players on this thread are quick to support Laliga and Barcelona when Airmark is on rampage on their thread, he obviously thinks it's sane to return the favor even when the point his "imaginary allies" are defending is one that doesn't hold sway...It's a pity.

AdisaOwala:

Last time I checked, nobody implied that Kaka is the greatest attacking Midfielder of all time so I really don't get this your "Apples vs Oranges" comparison.
Maybe you should relax, take a deep breath & follow the Convo from the beginning...
Oga - 'Overated' in this context means he probably didn't deserve to win a WPOTY award or that he wasn't one of the best players in the world for the 3-4 years wey him take reign......an assertion that's clearly false!
As for his decline, it was hardly his fault...
He might have struggled in his debut season at Madrid but the injury(8months) he copped at the begining of his 2nd season literarily ended his career !
There was no way a 28 year old was gonna return to blistering form & fitness after such a lengthy layoff so I really don't get what you are on about.

You are smarter than groupie trolls want to make you out to look. Perhaps, you are the one who needs to pace yourself. If Kaka is being compared to previous WPOTY winners, he probably is OVERrated. That's the argument- not whether he is great or one of the best of his time. As you can see your definition of overrated is what is clearly wrong as you have made it out to mean that A40 is arguing that he wasn't one of the best players in the world at the time. That's an argument only you are making.

When the British media in 2004 started saying the English team could win the world cup (in 06) because of Rooney they were overrating him. That doesn't mean that he wasn't "one of the best players of the time". Frank Lampard said Mou would get into the dressing room circa 04/05 and tell him he is the best player in the world. Frank knew it was all a confidence booster because he knew he wasn't the best. Mou was overrating him. Doesn't mean Frank was not one of the best in the world. He was.

diggz:



While the originators of this line of logic or thinking are finding it tough to defend ,you have one 'up barka fan' wanting to do it for them....

Bruh I just weak.

I had initially typed a lengthy reply to that Barka fan but I just decided to ignore him. His post was was just waffle with literally no substance.

The other poster thato just jumped in aggressively like a frog on energy drinks is pretty much the same. Posting for the sake of it or maybe just so he test his keyboard.

Despite the premise and context of the argument being set at least 2 days ago, he's coming to talk about hypothetical contexts that nobody even mentioned.

Where do they even find these people?

daya can influence people sha, see as dat "up barka" guy just write rubbish to defend him lord nd master logic.

Eruditor:


You are smarter than groupie trolls want to make you out to look. Perhaps, you are the one who needs to pace yourself. If Kaka is being compared to previous WPOTY winners, he probably is OVERrated. That's the argument- not whether he is great or one of the best of his time. As you can see your definition of overrated is what is clearly wrong as you have made it out to mean that A40 is arguing that he wasn't one of the best players in the world at the time. That's an argument only you are making.
.

I know it maybe hard for you to read, but A40 did not call Kaka overrated in comparison to any other player...


Go back to the beginning and see the criteria he gave for deciding who is overrated before you come here to talk bollocks.

When the British media in 2004 started saying the English team could win the world cup (in 06) because of Rooney they were overrating him. That doesn't mean that he wasn't "one of the best players of the time

This is such a stoopid thing to say. The Media were saying Messi could win the world cup in 2014, Copa in 2015 and 2016 because they were overrating him too.

Frank Lampard said Mou would get into the dressing room circa 04/05 and tell him he is the best player in the world. Frank knew it was all a confidence booster because he knew he wasn't the best. Mou was overrating him. Doesn't mean Frank was not one of the best in the world. He was

Oponu leleyi o. So a manager talking in private to his player, (who just so happened to be voted the 2nd best player in the world during the period you mentioned) is considered overrating....

Where do they find you people?

Don't reply please..

Nihilist:


Bruh I just weak.

I had initially typed a lengthy reply to that Barka fan but I just decided to ignore him. His post was was just waffle with literally no substance.

The other poster thato just jumped in aggressively like a frog on energy drinks is pretty much the same. Posting for the sake of it or maybe just so he test his keyboard.

Despite the premise and context of the argument being set at least 2 days ago, he's coming to talk about hypothetical contexts that nobody even mentioned.

Where do they even find these people?

The first one is the main culprit here! Always waiting on the side to feast on dayos vomit..

Go check most of this guys post,no single original line of thoughts....Him follow follow na eyesore and my belle dey always turn after reading his gibberish.

patrickmuf:
Seriously, a size-able number of Barcelona fans are emotional and childish...So because the main players on this thread are quick to support Laliga and Barcelona when Airmark is on rampage on their thread, he obviously thinks it's sane to return the favor even when the point his "imaginary allies" are defending is one that doesn't hold sway...It's a pity.

Azzzin ......u go fear fear na! Na corner eye I dey use look dem.

Nihilist:


I know it maybe hard for you to read, but A40 did not call Kaka overrated in comparison to any other player...


Go back to the beginning and see the criteria he gave for deciding who is overrated before you come here to talk bollocks.



This is such a stoopid thing to say. The Media were saying Messi could win the world cup in 2014, Copa in 2015 and 2016 because they were overrating him too.



Oponu leleyi o. So a manager talking in private to his player, (who just so happened to be voted the 2nd best player in the world during the period you mentioned) is considered overrating....

Where do they find you people?

Don't reply please..

Bros you are wasting your time with this one..,...na olodorabata blowing grammer upandan!

Nihilist:


I know it maybe hard for you to read, but A40 did not call Kaka overrated in comparison to any other player...


Go back to the beginning and see the criteria he gave for deciding who is overrated before you come here to talk bollocks.



This is such a stoopid thing to say. The Media were saying Messi could win the world cup in 2014, Copa in 2015 and 2016 because they were overrating him too.



Oponu leleyi o. So a manager talking in private to his player, (who just so happened to be voted the 2nd best player in the world during the period you mentioned) is considered overrating....

Where do they find you people?

Don't reply please..

Don't worry I have noticed you. It is not my time you will waste. I will argue my ability to read with you on NL because life begins and ends here.

This information I am giving is free of charge and what you choose to do with it is your prerogative: I have no horse in this race. I came to explain to Adisa how someone can be great and still be overrated.

As for your illogic on media and Messi I am guessing that Messi had not won several WPOTY awards compared to a fledgling Rooney?

If someone is not the best in the world (by any standard) but you claim he is, are you not giving him more credit than he deserves? The English word for that is overrating.

See how you used "stoopid", "bollocks" "where do they pick this people from?" to qualify someone's posts or his person who didn't attack or even mention you. In the same breath you were throwing shades at those who jump into conversations and accusing another person of waffling. Hahaha

Jokes for centuries.

Eruditor:


Don't worry I have noticed you. It is not my time you will waste. I will argue my ability to read with you on NL because life begins and ends here.

This information I am giving is free of charge and what you choose to do with it is your prerogative: I have no horse in this race. I came to explain to Adisa how someone can be great and still be overrated.
.

You clearly cannot read. Not only did you miss the premise of original discussion, you must have missed AdisaOwala's response to you here:

Last time I checked, nobody implied that Kaka is the greatest attacking Midfielder of all time so I really don't get this your "Apples vs Oranges" comparison.
Maybe you should relax, take a deep breath & follow the Convo from the beginning...

Not only was your so called information unrequested, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion in its entirerty because you have missed the point so spectacularly.


I will tell you again, go back to the beginning and READ.

As for your illogic on media and Messi I am guessing that Messi had not won several WPOTY awards compared to a fledgling Rooney?

Chai this one is daft. You are the same person who Rooney was one of the best players at the time yet was overrated because he did not win a competition he was predicted to. Messi is also one of the best players around and did not win the competition- by your own useless definition he is overrated.

See how you used "stoopid", "bollocks" "where do they pick this people from?" to qualify someone's posts or his person who didn't attack or even mention you. In the same breath you were throwing shades at those who jump into conversations and accusing another person of waffling. Hahaha

This is why we said you should go back and READ. If you did so, you will realise that you are the one who jumped into a Conversation that A40 AdisaOwala and I were having that started a few days ago...

The more you talk, the more stoopid you appear. READ nigga READ!

Eruditor:


You are smarter than groupie trolls want to make you out to look. Perhaps, you are the one who needs to pace yourself. If Kaka is being compared to previous WPOTY winners, he probably is OVERrated. That's the argument

Iwhether he is great or one of the best of his time. As you can see your definition of overrated is what is clearly wrong as you have made it out to mean that A40 is arguing that he wasn't one of the best players in the world at the time. That's an argument only you are making.

That is the argument you made for yourself - not me....

The fact that great players players like Figo, Rivaldo, Shevchenko Nedved etc cannot be compared to the likes of Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo etc doesn't make them Overated - it's a relative thingy.

If Kaka deservedly won a WPOTY award & was one of the best players in the world for a stipulated period, why should the issue of him being Overated crop up when he was never compared to players that might be superior to him in the 1st place?

Eruditor:

[s]When the British media in 2004 started saying the English team could win the world cup (in 06) because of Rooney they were overrating him. That doesn't mean that he wasn't "one of the best players of the time". Frank Lampard said Mou would get into the dressing room circa 04/05 and tell him he is the best player in the world. Frank knew it was all a confidence booster because he knew he wasn't the best. Mou was overrating him. Doesn't mean Frank was not one of the best in the world. He was[/s].

What is this again?

Wetin concern British hype & 'player Confidence boosting' (Typical of Mourihno) with the matter on ground? Were those players ever rated beyond their abilities by appropriate Footballing bodies?

You really need to go back and read the genesis of everything cos bruh - you are really posting off point!

Pataki:

My English teacher 'thought' me, we should always use "it" for an animal.
Ajakaja40 aka 'Excel guguru' is an irascible animal.

a40 don suffer.

Eruditor:


[s]Oga, the English involved is not that involved to understand. You see what I did there? I used involved twice in different contexts and both hold up perfectly in English.

The synopsis of it all is, a great player can be rated far greater than he is supposed to be hence, the term OVERrated. If an award is introduced termed "greatest striker ever" and people are asked to vote but somehow Aguero wins the poll. We can safely say that award overrates him. In other words, we may accept that Aguero in his prime has been nothing short of lethal, but for any one to stretch it that far into naming him the greatest striker of all time will be overdoing it.[/s]

Conclusively, if we are to critically examine Kaka as a player from when he was adjudged best player in the world to when he petered out, it will appear that the WPOTY 2007 that he won perhaps overrated him.

Clowns everywhere. They tagged something wpoty 2007 and not 2007+ and you said it overrated him. So the award should not be given to someone who would not shine in subsequent years? How did we get here for christ sake? The same kaka that bossed everybody in 2006/2007. Man, wpoty has nothing to do with failure to impress subsequently. That year award was well-deserved.

diggz:

Bros you are wasting your time with this one..,...na olodorabata blowing grammer upandan!

what club is he supporting?

airmark:


a40 don suffer.






Clowns everywhere. They tagged something wpoty 2007 and not 2007+ and you said it overrated him. So the award should not be given to someone who would not shine in subsequent years? How did we get here for christ sake? The same kaka that bossed everybody in 2006/2007. Man, wpoty has nothing to do with failure to impress subsequently. That year award was well-deserved.




what club is he supporting?

Up barka

diggz:


Up barka

No wonder.

AdisaOwala:

That is the argument you made for yourself - not me....
The fact that great players players like Figo, Rivaldo, Shevchenko Nedved etc cannot be compared to the likes of Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo etc doesn't make them Overated - it's a relative thingy.
If Kaka deservedly won a WPOTY award & was one of the best players in the world for a stipulated period, why should the issue of him being Overated crop up when he was never compared to players that might be superior to him in the 1st place?
What is this again?
Wetin concern British hype & 'player Confidence boosting' (Typical of Mourihno) with the matter on ground? Were those players ever rated beyond their abilities by appropriate Footballing bodies?
You really need to go back and read the genesis of everything cos bruh - you are really posting off point!

Don't borrow their agbero style. You started civil keep it civil. I have no reputation to protect on nairaland.

1. If you say it is a relative thingy then what right do you arrogate to yourself to decide whether being great precludes being overrated. Again, I am saying that is my area of concern.

2. The issue of him being overrated can still come up within the ambits of him getting more credit than he deserves as well as when he is juxtaposed with other previous WPsOTY. If A40 makes a claim, he is allowed to set the limits of his claim. If he did so WRT comparing Kaka to other WPsOTY, then I agree with him.

3. Haba, how can you intentionally miss the point about those examples? All I am saying is, in those examples, the media and Mou were giving the respective players more credit than they deserved. In A40s case, Kaka being adjudged WPOTY in 07 was an overestimation. "Appropriate bodies" is moot. It is still subjective voting that is done.

Eruditor:


Don't borrow their agbero style. You started civil keep it civil. I have no reputation to protect on nairaland.

1. If you say it is a relative thingy then what right do you arrogate to yourself to decide whether being great precludes being overrated. Again, I am saying that is my area of concern.

2. The issue of him being overrated can still come up within the ambits of him getting more credit than he deserves as well as when he is juxtaposed with other previous WPsOTY. If A40 makes a claim, he is allowed to set the limits of his claim. If he did so WRT comparing Kaka to other WPsOTY, then I agree with him.

3. Haba, how can you intentionally miss the point about those examples? All I am saying is, in those examples, the media and Mou were giving the respective players more credit than they deserved. In A40s case, Kaka being adjudged WPOTY in 07 was an overestimation. "Appropriate bodies" is moot. It is still subjective voting that is done.

Do you support this f00lish opinion ?

Nihilist:

Usually Dayo would have backed him up...but this time left him to stand solo.
That's why I told A40 to recant his original illogical post first time round.
A player can be great and overrated at the same time - A40
Aguero is overrated- A40
Kaka was overrated - A40
Lampard was overated - A40
However Boateng is not Overrated- A40
How many gaffes in just one day tori Olorun?

Why not tell us where you saw Argentina struggle in Copa 16 and the 2014 WC.

diggz:


Unless you can give an example of a thing or someone who is good and great but over rated at the same time, I do not see why pidgin shouldn't be the standard means of communication on this thread.

Omo you go wait tire oh. Its still evident people don't even understand what overrated means so why should I waste kilojoules when the fundamentals have not even been understood

Eruditor:


Don't borrow their agbero style. You started civil keep it civil. I have no reputation to protect on nairaland.

Point out the 'uncivil' thing in that last post of mine..

Eruditor:

[s]
1. If you say it is a relative thingy then what right do you arrogate to yourself to decide whether being great precludes being overrated. Again, I am saying that is my area of concern.[/s]

Mr Eruditor Obahiagbon, your big words wouldn't mask the fact that you Speaketh completely off tangent...as far as this convo is concerned sha...

Eruditor:

2. The issue of him being overrated can still come up within the ambits of him getting more credit than he deserves as well as when he is juxtaposed with other previous WPsOTY. If A40 makes a claim, he is allowed to set the limits of his claim. If he did so WRT comparing Kaka to other WPsOTY, then I agree with him.

Hahaha

Where exactly did he make this comparison?

Did you read his posts at all?

Eruditor:

3. Haba, how can you intentionally miss the point about those examples? All I am saying is, in those examples, the media and Mou were giving the respective players more credit than they deserved. In A40s case, Kaka being adjudged WPOTY in 07 was an overestimation." Appropriate bodies" is moot. It is still subjective voting that is done.

This is exactly what I wanted to see...

Oya tell us who shoulda won it instead.

A40:

Why not tell us where you saw Argentina struggle in Copa 16 and the 2014 WC.

The Copa 16 one was a mistake. I copied and pasted the same line of for 15.

Argentina still lost to an underdog in the Finals so....

airmark:


a40 don suffer.






They tagged something wpoty 2007 and not 2007+ and you said it overrated him. So the award should not be given to someone who would not shine in subsequent years? How did we get here for christ sake? The same kaka that bossed everybody in 2006/2007. Man, wpoty has nothing to do with failure to impress subsequently. That year award was well deserved.

Your logic is sound but your intentions, iffy. It must not be an airmark vs A40 argument all the time. I can accept that Porto were crowned UCL winners of 04 and still feel that even within that year winning the UCL (and by extension being adjudged best team in Europe) was over -deserving. Same way I can accept that Kaka was crowned WPOTY in 07 and still feel it overrates him. If I choose to make my argument based on the quality of previous and subsequent winners of the same award I am not out of place whether the sport section bellicose crew agree with it or not.

TRendlona:

Aguero doesn't have any Champions league to his name, he was no where to be found in Argentina's road to the WC final and Copa America final. He has only showed up for Man City and maybe Atletico Madrid. Even Higuain try pass am for national level.


Kaka was a great player but he lacked longevity. I can't say he's overrated but he isn't even in the class of Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Delima and co not to talk of Pele, Maradona and Messi.


Lampard was a great midfielder in his time there's no doubt about that. He won the Champions league, Europa cup, Premiership, FA cup etc but didn't show up at international level. He couldn't even make it to any semi final nor even third place.


Boateng has shown up in every aspect both club level and international level. He has won the World cup, Champions league, DFB pokal, Super cup etc He didn't just win it but he made great contributions to the victory. IMO, Boateng isn't an overrated defender. He showed up when it mattered . I'm still vexed at the way he and his co defenders stopped Messi during the WC final. The tin still dey pain me cos if not them, Messi would have had a WC to his name.

When someone is asking me how a player can be good yet overrated is there any point arguing with such person? If I say Kanye West or Wizkid are overrated does it mean they are not good?

That is why I said we should interact in pidgin. Since English is proving tedious

Eruditor:


Your logic is sound but your intentions, iffy. It must not be an airmark vs A40 argument all the time. I can accept that Porto were crowned UCL winners of 04 and still feel that even within that year winning the UCL (and by extension being adjudged best team in Europe) was over -deserving. Same way I can accept that Kaka was crowned WPOTY in 07 and still feel it overrates him. If I choose to make my argument based on the quality of previous and subsequent winners of the same award I am not out of place whether the sport section bellicose crew agree with it or not.

If you could read, you will see that the 'bellicose crew' don't agree with you because you are arguing points thar nobody made.

This was a discussion about a specific set of parameters that A40 defined.

I have told you to go back and read. AdisaOwala has told you to go back and read. I'm sure even A40 will tell you to go back and read.

You are arguing with yourself and that's just stoopid.

SIRcumalot:

milan 1st ever champions league under carlo,na 3rd them carry for serie A.
carrying fourth for league and winning the UCL no be cane to flog kaka abeg.

Go and check how many points Milan used to finish behind the league winners. It is a very legit cane that can be used to flog Kaka. They won but did they dominate?

Nihilist:

The Copa 16 one was a mistake. I copied and pasted the same line of for 15.
Argentina still lost to an underdog in the Finals so....

Story for the gods. . .

Eruditor:


Your logic is sound but your intentions, iffy. It must not be an airmark vs A40 argument all the time. I can accept that Porto were crowned UCL winners of 04 and still feel that even within that year winning the UCL (and by extension being adjudged best team in Europe) was over -deserving. Same way I can accept that Kaka was crowned WPOTY in 07 and still feel it overrates him. If I choose to make my argument based on the quality of previous and subsequent winners of the same award I am not out of place whether the sport section bellicose crew agree with it or not.

Porto won 2004 ucl because they were the best that season, whether you like it or not. feeling they didnt deserve it could only be reasonable, if other opponents had plane crashes and porto were presented the cup without kicking a ball. May be they were pushed by referees' decisions all the way, you should tell us. There's a reason they called it wpoty 07 and not wpoty of 2007 to 2015. If you extend the dragnet, then it's unfortunate. You should even tell us who deserved to win it that year.